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Old 03-01-2008, 06:21 PM   #1
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Are the Jedi Masters good or evil? (spoilers ahoy)

Going by the Sith Lord's storyline and the role the Jedi Masters played in the game I think their allignment is open to interpretation, but you guys might be able to help me out with this.

The Exile went to fight against the Mandalorian Wars with Revan, and the Jedi's reasoning is because of her betrayal she was cast out. When you confront them on Dantoine it is revealed that they are fearful of a wound in the Force and in a bid to heal it they seek to cut the Exile off from the Force completely. Kriea would comment that the reason why they wanted this, and why the Exile deafened herself to the Force, was because she was afraid. I think it's also said they used you as bait to lure out the Sith. And then there's Atris. At the Exile's trial she tried unsuccessfully to have the Council kill her. She also had them gather and then wiped out. How long was she influenced by the Sith, and how much did she influence the other Jedi? Now given the opportunity to kill them you gain a lot of Dark Side points for it, but just how much in the right were they?
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Old 03-01-2008, 06:48 PM   #2
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I think that Atris was just influenced by Kreia and became darth Traya. Atris was just misunderstood. The Jedi masters were just afraid of the Exile's force wound. They were all just misunderstood


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Old 03-01-2008, 09:06 PM   #3
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Quote:
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Atris was just misunderstood.
Oh sure. She plotted to excommunicate both Kreia and the Exile from the Jedi Order, trained herself a small army of non-Force sensitives, and decorated he bedroom with Sith Holocrons. She was just misunderstood.


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Old 03-14-2008, 01:45 AM   #4
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Ctrl_Alt_Del puts it well in a nut shell. Atris was hurt considerably when an individual she admired (perhaps even considered her heroine) had broken, no defied, the council's wishes and gone off to a war Atris (bieng a historian) thought poorely of. After that it was pride leading to arrogance, she and her 'innocent studies' to gain 'tactical information on the enemy' led her further into darkness. Still beset wit hypocrasy, the former member of the Jedi Council only embraced her status as a Sith adept whe nconfronted by Darth Traya. I think she ought to be considered seperately from the others here.

As for the other masters, I'd not consider them evil so much as differing in opinion on a certain point of Jeid philosophy. As an aquantence of mine says, 'there are some hilltops to die on'. it seems to me the Council decided to die on the incorrect hilltop based on what we know of the background of the Mandalorian Wars and the 'True Sith'. (In other words very little.) There is evidence Rohlan Dyre, (KotOR Volume 2 Flashpoint, KotOR 2 itself) not to mention Revan and Malak's post Malachor descisians, that suggest there was some reason why it was NOT a good idea for the Revanchists to take an active part in the war. Or it could be Vrook being a control freak who resented how so many rallied to Revan's banner.

I'd class the Masters you encounter (Atris excluded) as being light side still, if a tad incorrect. For one thing, if one defines following the Jedi model as good in Star Wars, than I would think the Council goofed by cloistering themselves away even though they still tried to influence the course of galactic events through Talia and the Khoonda administrator. On the other hand, if one were the leader of an army without one's army alive to command or protect, such a wait and see strategy might not be a bad idea.
It seems certain that, tactically speaking, using Exile with her lovely blue eyes to attract Sith would actually be a smart move; a red herring if you will. Again, not exactly Jedi like but prudent behavior in a situation where one is out-manned, out-gunned, and facing an unseen foe who can consume a planet full of Force-sensatives. The fact that you killing them in game is an act of revenge for kicking you out could, perhaps contribute to the dark side points no matter why the player wants to kill them.

All will become clear if Lucasfilm gets their act together and makes more games/comics/novels/anything new I may have forgotten, from this time period. I think the KotOR comics will answer some questions, for one thing they told us Malak used to have hair. Beat that!

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Old 03-14-2008, 10:41 PM   #5
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In K1 & K2, the Sith were ruled by agression, while the remnants of the Jedi council were ruled by their fears. I wouldn't say that the Jedi were evil, but they were not strictly a force for good either and did many evil acts as well as good ones. I tend to see them as the lesser evil.

The Sith actively caused harm, admittedly in the cases of some of the Sith in order to destroy what they saw as a greater evil. Some of the Jedi did this, but on the whole they did try to do the whole "hypocratic oath" thing and first do no harm.

Where the Jedi council's evil came from is of inaction in the face of evil. "If good men and women do nothing in the face of evil, then it flourishes." And I know they were concerned with the people relying too much on them, like in Palpatine's rise to power in the clone wars era, but there are ways they could have helped subtlly, rather than a choice between being on the front lines vs ban every jedi everywhere from giving any help whatsoever or excommunicate them if they do.

Of course, I think that Windu, Yoda, and co were influenced by the earlier history of 4000 years, and that's why Palpatine was able to manipulate them into making revan's mistake. They saw Kavar and Co's mistake with the benefit of hindsight, agreed with exile, disciple, handmaiden etc that the masters were wrong, and went to the exact opposite extreme. Of course this is the way real people do when they schism off a church (or other institution) because they get offended at the way it handled something. They look to create a new one that the abuses they saw in the original group could never be repeated, and go so far in the other direction that it sows the seeds of their own destruction.


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Old 03-25-2008, 02:37 AM   #6
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Personally, I see that the Jedi Masters in K! and K2, were seen as more teachers, or mentors, than actually masters.In KOTOR, they knew who Revan was, and tried to conceal it from him, or her, until the character completed the training, and could handle being told that they are Revan. And they do train Revan to become a Jedi, again. This is why I see the Jedi Council as more of mentors, or teachers, than actual masters. In 2, though, they become more of masters, but Atris see a padawan, that she has had a hand in training become something that she could not become, or easily become. If you play as a male, she is also attracted to you, at least in the beginning. The others, are somewhat teachers, as the ones alive teach you saber moves. But not much else, at least at the beginning. They also fill in some holes, and also they help you regain your powers, as a Jedi. Personally, I don't think any of the Masters were good or evil, but rather just various shades of grey. I think most of them wanted to join Revan, and fight against the Madalorians, but due to the trappings of their teachings, and after what the Exile went through, I think they were frightened that it could happen to them, and into inaction. I think that they were going to be more like a cadre of trainers, rather than actually fighting, but some were going to get their hands dirty, so to speak. Or at least, this is the impression I get when I talk to the various masters, and the council room on Coruscant, when I play 2.


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Old 03-25-2008, 03:28 AM   #7
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No, they weren't evil. They were just misguided--but then again, that's the first step towards evil, isn't it?

They were also hypocritical. Take Zez-Kai Ell, for instance. Besides Atris, he spoke against the Exile the most during the trial, and yet even then he had decided to leave the Order, as the Exile did. He left because he thought the others had forgotten what it means to be a Jedi, and then what did he do? He hid on a moon full of people in need of a Jedi's help, and all he did was ignore them.


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Old 03-25-2008, 09:40 AM   #8
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If anyone in the situation is evil then it's Revan and the Exile. Never mind the masters, because they actually knew something about what was going on.
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Old 03-25-2008, 01:57 PM   #9
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JCarter, you are right. I don't think that he was evil, just misguided. Zez-Kai Ell could have done more, I think. And he probably did what he could. However, he didn't turn to the dark side, just left the order. The rest, though, aren't evil, nor are they exactly good. Except for two people
Atris, though, does go to the dark side, at the end. She happens to follow the path that was laid down by Kreia, and possibly others. Kreia is also one who isn't good, or even neutral, but rather evil. When I first played the game, I had a feeling that she was a Sith, or at least going towards the dark side. Whenever other characters would go towards the light side, and she remained neutral, I knew something was wrong with her.
Oh, and the above was only for TSL, not KOTOR. I'll have to replay KOTOR, sometime, and get the feel of the masters there.


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Old 03-25-2008, 02:03 PM   #10
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The Jedi in KOTOR didn't seem evil, and you didn't really get that "misguided" vibe, either. They were, however, complete liars.

Oh, and about Atris. She was perhaps the most extreme example of how "misguided" can easily turn to "evil". Kreia too.


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Old 03-25-2008, 10:06 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JCarter426
Oh, and about Atris. She was perhaps the most extreme example of how "misguided" can easily turn to "evil". Kreia too.
Agreed. Though I would hardly classify Kreia as ever misguided.


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Old 03-25-2008, 10:57 PM   #12
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Looking at it from an in-universe perspective, Kreia is something of an anti-hero. Her ultimate goal certainly was unquestionably an admirable one.
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Old 03-26-2008, 08:27 AM   #13
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...yet she did evil things in order to carry it out--as I said, misguided.


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Old 03-26-2008, 08:43 AM   #14
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Whether that's misguided is more of an opinion than anything else. Yeah, she did evil things, hence the "anti-hero" description.
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Old 03-26-2008, 08:58 AM   #15
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Well, she did evil things in order to carry out a greater good. That's misguided in my book.


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Old 03-26-2008, 01:57 PM   #16
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Kreia's actions were purely selfish and spurred by jealousy.

She coveted the Exile's strength and ability to recover, thrive and even grow stronger after being separated from the force.

She was just in a bad mood. You'd think there was a pharmacy somewhere on Nar Shadda that sold Midol.


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Old 03-26-2008, 02:15 PM   #17
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And yet she didn't try to hurt the Exile, or take anything from her. Her goal was to make the Exile--someone who had done what she could not--even stronger.


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Old 03-26-2008, 04:57 PM   #18
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I thought she wanted to kill the force.
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Old 03-26-2008, 05:16 PM   #19
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Yes, but she couldn't do that. So she did the second best thing by making the Exile stronger, as the Exile had managed to kill the Force within herself. That's what Malachor was (supposed to be) about (before it was cut).


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Old 03-26-2008, 08:00 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JCarter426
Yes, but she couldn't do that. So she did the second best thing by making the Exile stronger, as the Exile had managed to kill the Force within herself. That's what Malachor was (supposed to be) about (before it was cut).
I see it other way. As she couldn't kill the Force by herself, she fed the only one who managed to at least show that wasn't controlled by it (on her views) until he/she got stronger.


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Old 03-26-2008, 08:03 PM   #21
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That's what I said.


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Old 03-26-2008, 08:25 PM   #22
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Yeah, she was basically an evil b*****. She twisted the Exile for her own misguided selfish agenda spurred by her own rage and impotence. The Jedi masters on the other hand had become increasingly irrelevant in the wake of Revan's crusade. The were most likely just flawed. Good in the sense of wanting to not cause evil, but blind to the fact their their own intransigent dawdling condemned the galaxy to further misery. They had become merely reactive rather than proactive and assiduously clung to their rigid understanding of their own code. No doubt why Jolee wanted no part of the council/order.


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Old 03-26-2008, 08:40 PM   #23
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What she did made the Exile stronger, though. For all the evil she did, she did as much good. Well, if the Exile listened to her, anyway. DS Exile is another matter.


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Old 03-26-2008, 10:01 PM   #24
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I think that the Jedi Masters were probably just trying to stop a threat that they saw in the force. My thinking is that if the rid the force (use?) from the Exile, there would be no threat of Kreia destroying or killing the force. And of course, we all know that that never happened. But that is just my interpretation...

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Old 03-26-2008, 10:13 PM   #25
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Oh, they had no idea about Kreia. It was Nihilus they were concerned about, and they thought cutting the Exile off from the Force would end the threat.

Or, in the DS version, they never knew about Nihilus, and thought the Exile actually was the threat.


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Old 03-27-2008, 10:27 AM   #26
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Quote:
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Oh, they had no idea about Kreia.
Definately agreed. When Kreia presents herself before the council, Kavar (I think) says that they thought she died in the Mandalorian Wars, so the threat they saw couldn't possibly have been her.

It really had to be Nihilus - He wiped out Katarr after all. It couldn't have been Sion, as he was too - provincial maybe? in his ambitions as a Sith Lord.
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Old 03-27-2008, 10:44 AM   #27
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Good in the sense of wanting to not cause evil, but blind to the fact their their own intransigent dawdling condemned the galaxy to further misery.They had become merely reactive rather than proactive and assiduously clung to their rigid understanding of their own code.
The reason they "dawdled" is because they knew that their real enemy wanted them to enter the war. There's no telling what would've happened if not for Revan and his band of hooligans running out there to the Mandalorians. The masters said that **** would hit the fan if they did that, and when they did that, what do you know? **** hit the fan. All the Jedi except [the] Exile died or turned dark. Revan and Malak started another war and upped the body count considerably.

Zez-Kai Ell, Vrook, and Kavar didn't act while they were in hiding because they were hiding. Like with the Mandalorians, they knew that their enemy, Darth Nihilus in this case, wanted them to group together and show themselves. They knew that the Exile would bring the Sith to Dantooine, which she did. Ultimately, their failure to take action against the Exile sooner than Dantooine led to their deaths.

The Council's flaws were by no means in being too strict. The fact is that they weren't strict enough. Hell, if not for Revan (and to a point, the Exile), Darth Nihilus would never have become a threat. If not for Revan, Malak would never have become a problem either. And of course, there would be no Sith Empire whatsoever. When the Exile returned for judgment, they should have cut her off from the force immediately. When Revan and his followers left to fight the war, the masters should have sent Jedi after them and brought them back, not just let them run around unsupervised. Needless to say, they also should have cut Revan and his immediate underlings from the force as well. And as stated before, if Revan hadn't mucked everything up, there's no telling what would have happened.
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Old 03-27-2008, 12:21 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TKA-001
When Revan and his followers left to fight the war, the masters should have sent Jedi after them and brought them back, not just let them run around unsupervised. Needless to say, they also should have cut Revan and his immediate underlings from the force as well. And as stated before, if Revan hadn't mucked everything up, there's no telling what would have happened.
I can understand why the council didn't intervene when Revan left for the Mandalorian Wars - I think they were worried that any action on their part could cause problems, and maybe they felt that it wasn't their job to stop invidual Jedi from fighting - it was their decision that the Order would stay out of it.

That said, i've always wondered why the council didn't confront Revan when he returned - Although he was a renowned Jedi, and competent duelist, I have doubts that he could have fought off say Vrook and Kavar at the same time.

If they did that as soon as Revan reappeared, the war could have been a bit shorter. But then Malak would have taken over...
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Old 03-27-2008, 02:09 PM   #29
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Revan is the strongest. No way the Masters could put him on trial.
He was the one who started all this, who possesed the knowledge and power too shape the galaxy. His believes, motives and his purpose was unquestionable. He set out too do what he believed had to be done, and no one would be able to stop him.

I would say, perhapse that the jedi, concerning this matter is suffering from ingnorance, they cant see the big picture. Thats why they could not understand Revans actions.

But Kotor 3 will probably give us the whole story..


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Old 03-27-2008, 03:04 PM   #30
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Revan may be the strongest, one on one, but I don't think that even he could face multiple members of the council and not be overwhelmed.

But, to paraphrase the ghost of a certain Jedi, "many things depend greatly on our point of view"

So really, this is just my interpretation, but I think it makes sense
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Old 03-28-2008, 08:46 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Astor_Kaine
Revan may be the strongest, one on one, but I don't think that even he could face multiple members of the council and not be overwhelmed.
Well, Kreia took the whole remnant Council with but a hand gesture.

Of course, she used what seemed the Nihilus technique, but...


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Old 03-28-2008, 08:53 PM   #32
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Of course, she used what seemed the Nihilus technique, but...
Nope, she couldn't do that. She did what they were going to do to the Exile--she cut them off from the Force. The pain of losing the Force was enough to kill them, because they relied on it so much. The ability to live without the Force was what made the Exile strong.


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Old 03-28-2008, 09:01 PM   #33
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She cut them from the Force? I don't recall she saying that.

Oh, perhaps the "See the galaxy through the eyes of the Exile" thingy was about that.

Anyway, she took care of them pretty easily and single-handily.


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Old 03-28-2008, 09:02 PM   #34
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Yeah, that's exactly what that was.


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Old 03-28-2008, 09:17 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JCarter426
Well, she did evil things in order to carry out a greater good. That's misguided in my book.
She didn't do that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JCarter426
Yes, but she couldn't do that. So she did the second best thing by making the Exile stronger, as the Exile had managed to kill the Force within herself. That's what Malachor was (supposed to be) about (before it was cut).
She did do that, but then Kreia to me always was the Star Wars version of Nietzsche, indeed I think perhaps her general philosophy was influenced by Nietzschean philosophy. I also think she was trying to turn the Exile into an Übermensch.

At topic: In my opinion Vrook, Kavar and Zez were all cowards - should of tryed to hunt the Sith threat down; also the failure to act in the face of evil, is in itself evil (the world is a crap place because so few act to change it), so in the Mandalorian Wars they were wrong - would the problems with Revan have occured had Vrook et al been at the forefront of the war effort?

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Oh sure. She plotted to excommunicate both Kreia and the Exile from the Jedi Order, trained herself a small army of non-Force sensitives, and decorated he bedroom with Sith Holocrons. She was just misunderstood.
Atris was evil, make no mistake... In many respects worse than the others as she deep down new she had fallen, but surrounded herself with those not force sensetive to disguise this fact.



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Old 03-28-2008, 09:28 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by jonathan7
She did do that, but then Kreia to me always was the Star Wars version Nietzsche, indeed I think perhaps her general philosophy was influenced by Nietzschean philosophy. I also think she was trying to turn the Exile into an Übermensch.
Lol. Where does the concept of Nietzsche Super Human gets on making one free from the Force?

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Atris was evil, make no mistake... In many respects worse than the others as she deep down new she had fallen, but surrounded herself with those not force sensetive to disguise this fact.
Dood, you noticed the e-sarcasm there, didn't you? I'm betting you did and I didn't get yours.


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Old 03-28-2008, 09:32 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Ctrl_Alt_Del
Lol. Where does the concept of Nietzsche Super Human gets on making one free from the Force?

Dood, you noticed the e-sarcasm there, didn't you? I'm betting you did and I didn't get yours.
Nah, no sarcasm from me. Kreia wins either way, yes her ambition was to destroy the force, but she must of at least suspected that the Exile could beat her. Otherwise why all the training in the way she trained? Why having been bested did she predict what would happen? Of course it depends on the interpretation of the ending.



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Old 03-29-2008, 04:23 AM   #38
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Well, Kreia took the whole remnant Council with but a hand gesture.
I think, and this is just a theory, that the reason Kreia was so easily able to do this was because the council hadn't expected it to happen.

When Kreia presented herself, they were ready to fight her blade on blade. I don't think they could have expected such an action. Remember, Kreia was very good at concealing both her existence and her thoughts.

I think that when on is cut off from the Force it takes a while because the subject is expecting it - and it might also be that doing it slowly prevents any extra damage. But with the council, it was so sudden and so abrupt that not only was the Force removed from their bodies, but also their lives.

I think that mainly because Jedi don't kill prisoners - if removing the Force from someone caused such a reaction, they wouldn't really do it, would they?

So possibly, Kreia used a cruder, but quicker method.

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In my opinion Vrook, Kavar and Zez were all cowards - should of tryed to hunt the Sith threat down; also the failure to act in the face of evil, is in itself evil (the world is a crap place because so few act to change it), so in the Mandalorian Wars they were wrong - would the problems with Revan have occured had Vrook et al been at the forefront of the war effort?
I don't think they were cowards. Most of them had probably fought in the war with Exar Kun 40 years before, and they didn't want another such war tearing apart the galaxy.

Plus, there was a hidden threat, one that was driving the Mandalorians away from the Unknown regions and the Outer Rim, further into the core. It is quite possible this threat was the True Sith, or something else, but we won't know that until (if) K3 comes out.

And don't quote me on this, but I seem to remember one character somewhere, saying that it was always Revan's destiny to go to war - so maybe the council let him go, in order to see what that destiny was. They didn't know that destiny would cause another war, however.

And they were hunting the Sith Threat -they needed the exile to draw the threat out, at which time they would meet and face the threat head on. But if Kreia could do that damage to them, they could not have hoped to fight Nihilus - I think that was why they waited for the exile.

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Old 03-29-2008, 08:44 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Astor_Kaine
I think that when on is cut off from the Force it takes a while because the subject is expecting it - and it might also be that doing it slowly prevents any extra damage. But with the council, it was so sudden and so abrupt that not only was the Force removed from their bodies, but also their lives.

I think that mainly because Jedi don't kill prisoners - if removing the Force from someone caused such a reaction, they wouldn't really do it, would they?
But if it was that easy to do so, we wouldn't have masters bothering on one-on-one lightsaber fights. Instead, they would just cut each other from the Force and see who does it first.


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Old 03-29-2008, 10:02 AM   #40
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But if it was that easy to do so, we wouldn't have masters bothering on one-on-one lightsaber fights. Instead, they would just cut each other from the Force and see who does it first.
Who said it was easy? Sure, Kreia could do it alone, but that probably has something to do with the fact that it had been done to her. Like the Exile, she had grown stronger by being forced to live without the Force.


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