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Old 03-29-2008, 10:25 AM   #41
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And then, we come back to this statement:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Myself
Well, Kreia took the whole remnant Council with but a hand gesture.
Where I actually said Kreia was strong enough to take on them.


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Old 03-29-2008, 11:28 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ctrl_Alt_Del
And then, we come back to this statement:


Where I actually said Kreia was strong enough to take on them.
Which comes back to my statement that they weren't prepared for it - practically as soon as she showed up, she took the Force from them.

I really think that, given time and sufficient warning, the council could easily have dealt with Kreia - Sith Lord or not. I think the element of surprise really determined the outcome of this - as I said, they were all shocked she was there.
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Old 03-29-2008, 12:10 PM   #43
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Quote:
At topic: In my opinion Vrook, Kavar and Zez were all cowards - should of tryed to hunt the Sith threat down; also the failure to act in the face of evil, is in itself evil (the world is a crap place because so few act to change it), so in the Mandalorian Wars they were wrong - would the problems with Revan have occured had Vrook et al been at the forefront of the war effort?
I'm not sure what you mean by "they should have hunted the Sith down", since the Sith weren't around in the Mandalorian wars and they were already trying to do that in the Jedi Civil War. And no, whether the problems would've occurred if all the Jedi went can't be determined because not all the Jedi were that stupid.

Quote:
Of course, she used what seemed the Nihilus technique, but...
Quote:
Nope, she couldn't do that. She did what they were going to do to the Exile--she cut them off from the Force. The pain of losing the Force was enough to kill them, because they relied on it so much. The ability to live without the Force was what made the Exile strong.
Quote:
Oh, perhaps the "See the galaxy through the eyes of the Exile" thingy was about that.
I'm going to take a wild guess here and say that Kreia uses Force Drain on them, rather than cutting them off from the force. My reasons are, of course, total speculation, but here they are anyway:
1)The power she uses looks exactly like Force Drain.
2)It sounds exactly like Force Drain.
3)It has the exact same effect as Force Drain.
4)It is never stated to be anything other than Force Drain.
5)It is never suggested to be anything other than Force Drain.
6)Nobody else has ever died from being cut from the force.
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Old 03-29-2008, 12:21 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TKA-001
I'm going to take a wild guess here and say that Kreia uses Force Drain on them, rather than cutting them off from the force. My reasons are, of course, total speculation, but here they are anyway:
1)The power she uses looks exactly like Force Drain.
2)It sounds exactly like Force Drain.
3)It has the exact same effect as Force Drain.
4)It is never stated to be anything other than Force Drain.
5)It is never suggested to be anything other than Force Drain.
6)Nobody else has ever died from being cut from the force.
I don't think that the first three really have that much of a bearing on it - they're just visual effects, after all.

It was Force Drain - but think about it - draining the force from someone is only a step away from removing it completely.
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Old 03-29-2008, 12:32 PM   #45
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Actually, it's explicitly stated in cut content that she's cutting them off from the Force. There's also this:

Quote:
[This master is dead... drained of life. His body is worse than lifeless, it's like an absence in the Force.]


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Old 03-29-2008, 12:53 PM   #46
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Thanks for the quote, Carter. I was trying to think of what it said.

Here's a quote regarding Force Drain

Quote:
Originally Posted by wookiepedia
The technique itself could not be taught, it could only be gained through instinct, through experiencing its effects first-hand
.

So if i've read that right, it means that those cut off from the force could learn such a technique, to regain their connection to the Force.
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Old 03-29-2008, 01:36 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Astor_Kaine
Which comes back to my statement that they weren't prepared for it - practically as soon as she showed up, she took the Force from them.

I really think that, given time and sufficient warning, the council could easily have dealt with Kreia - Sith Lord or not. I think the element of surprise really determined the outcome of this - as I said, they were all shocked she was there.
How much time?

Because she managed to throw quite a speech and the Masters even manifested their thoughts on her before she cut them of definitely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TKA-001
1)The power she uses looks exactly like Force Drain.
2)It sounds exactly like Force Drain.
3)It has the exact same effect as Force Drain.
4)It is never stated to be anything other than Force Drain.
5)It is never suggested to be anything other than Force Drain.
6)Nobody else has ever died from being cut from the force.
If you would go by looks, then it's about the same of Nihilus ability. Remember him sucking the Force out of Sion.


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Last edited by Ctrl Alt Del; 03-29-2008 at 05:02 PM.
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Old 03-29-2008, 02:56 PM   #48
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Quote:
It was Force Drain - but think about it - draining the force from someone is only a step away from removing it completely.
Whether it's a "step away" is irrelevant.

Quote:
Actually, it's explicitly stated in cut content that she's cutting them off from the Force.
I've heard that red herring defense used one too many times. The cut content is irrelevant. We're talking about what is, not what might have been.

Quote:
[This master is dead... drained of life. His body is worse than lifeless, it's like an absence in the Force.]
There is no indication that that is not a standard effect of Force Drain.

Quote:
If you would go by looks, then it's about the same of Nihilus ability. Remember him sucking Sion.
Again, whatever was cut does not have any bearing on the discussion. Either way, there is no indication that Nihilus' power is any different from the regular drain, except for the scale on which it is used and how much he relies on it. (Note: You really ought to have phrased that a little better.)
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Old 03-29-2008, 03:52 PM   #49
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It only looks like Drain Life because they didn't have the inclination or the time to make a different special effect.

And forget about the cut content; it's said in the game more than once. For instance:

Quote:
As you would pass judgment on her, I have come to pass judgment on you all.
They were going to cut the Exile off from the Force, so she does it to them.

Quote:
See it through the eyes of the exile, as I have. Endure what she has endured, and perhaps there is the faintest hope that you will hear what he has heard.
Both the Exile and Kreia had lost connection to the Force, and so she does the same to them.

And as I posted earlier,

Quote:
[This master is dead... drained of life. His body is worse than lifeless, it's like an absence in the Force.]
It wasn't the normal Drain Life. It was worse.


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Old 03-29-2008, 05:48 PM   #50
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Quote:
It only looks like Drain Life because they didn't have the inclination or the time to make a different special effect.
It doesn't matter why it looks the same.

Quote:
As you would pass judgment on her, I have come to pass judgment on you all.
Quote:
They were going to cut the Exile off from the Force, so she does it to them.
By "pass judgment" on them, she meant exactly that, not do what they were going to.

Quote:
It wasn't the normal Drain Life. It was worse.
Again, there is no indication that that doesn't also happen to anyone else who is killed by drain.
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Old 03-30-2008, 12:30 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ^
Again, there is no indication that that doesn't also happen to anyone else who is killed by drain.
Well, isn't it indication enough that the bodies are still there? Or there being a description? To me, it sounds like it was a lot worse than force-drain.
Quote:
[This master is dead... drained of life. His body is worse than lifeless, it's like an absence in the Force.]
How can something be more than lifeless?

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Old 03-30-2008, 06:26 PM   #52
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Quote:
How can something be more than lifeless?
Beats me.

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Old 03-30-2008, 10:30 PM   #53
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Well, ths discussion is interesting. Time to put in my 2 cents 5 hours late!

I kind of like to see the Jedi Council's decision on the Mandalorian Wars in a sort of 'old-christian-lady' way. The jedi obay the "word of the code" (kinda like the word of god) and what the code says is right, and all else is totally wrong, which was Atris' POV. Atris kind of had a very one sided Point of view kindof like, I'll quote Anakin Skywalker on this, "If you're not with me, than you're my enemy." I think the rest of the council had this, but just not as nutsy as "If you don't follow the code 100 percent, you're on the dark side" as Atris was. They followed the Jedi code of nonviolence, and didn't go to war. Some didn't believe, and left to go to war. This was treason to the council, especially when special pupils with bright futures, like The Exile, left.

After the war, when they decided to Exile her/him for that, and the great big echo in the force from all the death. I feel that them exiling The Exile for the echo, instead of, as Kavar(I think) said they should have researched and found a cure for, was done out of fear of losing the force themselves. And then, they tried to sever it again in the rebuilt enclave because of the fear, and Kreia did to them what they were trying to prevent to all jedi, taking the force from them.

As said earlier, the council was lead by fear in their descision to exile The Exile. But, that fear didn't really help their all holy attitude towards the code and disobaying the word of the jedi founders. Definatly something to do with selfishness too. Disreguarding what the exile had to say about her situation, only caring about themselves and their opinions or their connection to the force. So necissarly, the council was trying to be good, but kinda screwed the pooch.
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Old 03-31-2008, 05:55 AM   #54
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About force drain. How powerful do you think Kreia is? She`s above the average Jedi, yes. But by using the standard force drain on the Jedi Masters, three of them, shouldnt make them die like they did, in a few seconds.

It was far worse than a standard force drain, and its something that can only be done by a special few, Nihilus, the Exile and Kreia.
Because as the quote posted earlier told us.

" The technique itself could not be taught, it could only be gained through instinct, through experiencing its effects first-hand"

The Exile, Kreia(Darth Traya), and Nihilus are the only ones we know who has experienced its terrible effect first hand!


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Old 03-31-2008, 09:26 AM   #55
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Unable to read previous posts

If you're going to repeat the same thing that Carter did, then just read my previous posts and pretend that they're new. I'm not going to explain the same thing all over again.
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Old 03-31-2008, 01:43 PM   #56
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Clarification

I didnt really ask anyone. I was just posting my own opinion.


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Old 04-07-2008, 09:30 AM   #57
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The masters are the ones who do not follow the code.
"There is no ignorance, there is knowledge"
If they are ignorant of some fact they should pursue it instead of blinding themselves and trying to explain through the force. If they do not know why the exile possess such abilities as a leader they should ask. They chose arrogance over knowledge and this, is a step towards the dark side.

In fact their teachings violates the code as well. In K1 Yuthura Ban explains the Sith Code and Uthar Wynn wants his students to understand the code, but what do those Jedi masters do? Nothing. Do they really think their students can follow the code simply by reciting it? That they can become great Jedi simply through a blind faith in the Code? Do they, or any Jedi Master ever wonder why lots of great Jedi are not trained at appropriate ages--Nomi Sunrider, Revan who lost his memory, exile's companions, and Luke Skywalker? It is because when they hear the code, they think about it.

Kreia is probably the main baddie, she lies to everyone but the exile; she interferes with everything but the exile's choices. Ironically her actions did some good. Her killing those masters probably displays her cruelty, but no good would come out of their actions. If they continue to punish the exile, they just grow more arrogant and step farther away from the truth, the knowledge--and ironically, they probabaly stepped towards the truth when Kreia drained their force.

She also made the exile understand herself so the exile can defeat Nihilus and Sion. Ironically the exile fully understands the force under the teachings of a Sith, yet she did not fall, because Kreia did not interfere with her decisions. She's probably a bad guy, but the exile may say otherwise.
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