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Old 03-05-2008, 11:08 PM   #41
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I still fail to see what teenage sterilization has to do with rape. How will the fact that a girl is sterilized change how and why rapists rape? Sterilization is a contraceptive measure, not an anti-STD measure.




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Old 03-05-2008, 11:10 PM   #42
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I'm a little too lazy to read the article in its entirety, but is this proposal something that is mandatory for all girls or some kind of voluntary thing that the government will pay for girls to be sterilized for a few years?

I would doubt that something like this could be mandatory, otherwise Britain would have joined the likes of Communist China when it comes to human rights and personal freedom.
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Old 03-05-2008, 11:12 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Pavlos
The Daily Mail is a joke. Unfortunately it represents the part of the electorate that parties are most interested in.
Thanks. I'd wondered about them as a source and how serious a possibility it was to actually happen.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthJebus05
Lets say you're a rapist. And you might get aids from a girl you rape. Would you rape without a condom? I know I wouldn't, and I'm not saying I will or ever rape, but if I forgot 'my' condom, I would leave the girl there and go find another one after I got the condom first.
I don't think that rapists tend to either be thoughtful, or the brightest tools in the shed.

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Old 03-06-2008, 12:13 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogue Nine
I still fail to see what teenage sterilization has to do with rape. How will the fact that a girl is sterilized change how and why rapists rape? Sterilization is a contraceptive measure, not an anti-STD measure.
Men tend to like sex better if it's unprotected. Thus it will cause all those sickos out there to prey on teenagers even more without the fear of getting the girl pregnant. But it will cause the girl to contract a STD, possibly killing her.
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Old 03-06-2008, 12:18 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by DarthJebus05
Thus it will cause all those sickos out there to prey on teenagers even more without the fear of getting the girl pregnant. .
Why would wether or not she gets pregnant be a factor? Like it has been mentioned before

Quote:
Originally Posted by InyriForge
Why would it affect the number of rapes in any way? I don't think the rapists of the world are thinking 'omg must not rape, might have to pay child support!'
I doubt a rapist would really care whether the girl gets pregnant or not. They would probably kill the girl afterwards. This is the way many rape cases go. Plus Rapists don't really care about getting an STD. All they care about is filling some empty void in their life by raping an innocent girl.


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Old 03-06-2008, 12:33 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthJebus05
Men tend to like sex better if it's unprotected. Thus it will cause all those sickos out there to prey on teenagers even more without the fear of getting the girl pregnant. But it will cause the girl to contract a STD, possibly killing her.
First off, most rapes are not about the sex, but power and domination. Rapists do not rape just for the sex.

Secondly, as asked before, why would a rapist care if they got girls pregnant? If they're raping someone, it's a pretty good bet they care very little for their victim's well-bring.

Thirdly, I have no idea what point you're trying to make with the STD reference. Again, sterilization is a contraceptive measure and has absolutely nothing to do with STDs.




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Old 03-06-2008, 12:50 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthJebus05
Men tend to like sex better if it's unprotected.
Yeah, well it's time for the men to grow up and be responsible. You don't want a kid? You take the responsibility for not having a kid. The difference in sensation is made into far more big of a deal than it actually is. If men are going to tango, the little man needs to be suited up appropriately.


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Old 03-06-2008, 01:05 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
Yeah, well it's time for the men to grow up and be responsible. You don't want a kid? You take the responsibility for not having a kid. The difference in sensation is made into far more big of a deal than it actually is. If men are going to tango, the little man needs to be suited up appropriately.
I agree, and you'd have to have a society and a court system that takes it a lot more serious than ours does if you really wanted to impact this.


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Old 03-06-2008, 01:39 AM   #49
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Or we could just parent the kids properly. My kids are my responsibility--not society's, and certainly not the court system's.


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Old 03-06-2008, 01:51 AM   #50
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I plan on making time for my kids when I have them, but I can't speak for every other parent out there. And frankly, I don't look for a lot of people to suddenly start taking their kids seriously. Many do. Many don't.

I don't look for that to suddenly change in either case.


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Old 03-06-2008, 02:02 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogue Nine
First off, most rapes are not about the sex, but power and domination. Rapists do not rape just for the sex.

Secondly, as asked before, why would a rapist care if they got girls pregnant? If they're raping someone, it's a pretty good bet they care very little for their victim's well-bring.

Thirdly, I have no idea what point you're trying to make with the STD reference. Again, sterilization is a contraceptive measure and has absolutely nothing to do with STDs.
Most rapes are about the power. Other rapes are just to satisfy a lonely man (or womens) sexual pleasure.

As for the pregnancy, what would you do if you found our someone is carrying your baby? Possibly babies? And if the police find out it was you who raped the girl, wouldn't you have to pay child support?

They would want to have unprotected sex, since they can't get pregnant, and what if their boyfriend has a STD? Thats what I'm trying to say.
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Old 03-06-2008, 02:25 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthJebus05
Most rapes are about the power. Other rapes are just to satisfy a lonely man (or womens) sexual pleasure.
Right, but does that make them any more palatable? Rape is rape, no matter what reason it is conducted for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthJebus05
As for the pregnancy, what would you do if you found our someone is carrying your baby? Possibly babies? And if the police find out it was you who raped the girl, wouldn't you have to pay child support?
I think child support will be the least of a rapist's worries if the police find out and can prove in a court of law that they committed the crime.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthJebus05
They would want to have unprotected sex, since they can't get pregnant, and what if their boyfriend has a STD? Thats what I'm trying to say.
I still don't understand what you're trying to get at. I thought we were talking about rape and now you bring up the teenage girls and their possibly infected boyfriends? You make no sense.

Your original point was that mandatory sterilization of teenage girls would increase unprotected rape. You have been asked to justify this hypothesis, yet you have not provided a logical, satisfactory explanation.




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Old 03-06-2008, 02:28 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthJebus05
Most rapes are about the power. Other rapes are just to satisfy a lonely man (or womens) sexual pleasure.

As for the pregnancy, what would you do if you found our someone is carrying your baby? Possibly babies? And if the police find out it was you who raped the girl, wouldn't you have to pay child support?

They would want to have unprotected sex, since they can't get pregnant, and what if their boyfriend has a STD? Thats what I'm trying to say.

Actually, in the case of rapes, I seriously doubt the rapist is remotely concerned about child support, all the more so if he ends up in prison. But remember.....he's a CRIMINAL, and they usually don't care about the legal nicities in the first place. As to the STD and boyfriend issue......how concerned is he that she might give him an STD as well? If he only cares about his pleasure, she's probably better off w/o him in the first place. She's the ultimate gate keeper, as long as she keeps it locked she can't get an infection (unless, naturally, he's also a rapist). Any girl/guy that puts themself in the position of contracting an STD either deserves it or should find themselves a less fickle and more responsible partner. After killing the the lout of course.


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Old 03-06-2008, 03:24 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogue Nine
Right, but does that make them any more palatable? Rape is rape, no matter what reason it is conducted for.


I think child support will be the least of a rapist's worries if the police find out and can prove in a court of law that they committed the crime.


I still don't understand what you're trying to get at. I thought we were talking about rape and now you bring up the teenage girls and their possibly infected boyfriends? You make no sense.

Your original point was that mandatory sterilization of teenage girls would increase unprotected rape. You have been asked to justify this hypothesis, yet you have not provided a logical, satisfactory explanation.
Whatever, I know that you have a problem with me.

~snipped~ There's no need for that. --Jae

The poster above me understands,.

~snipped~

-Girl gets sterilized
-Girl has no fear of getting pregnant
-Girl and boy have unprotected sex
-Girl contracts STD

Why does the girl get a STD? Because she had unprotected sex because she was sterilized.

Keep it civil, please. --Jae

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Old 03-06-2008, 03:57 AM   #55
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Oh, so this is a completely different point from the whole rape topic. Why didn't you just say so?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthJebus05
Whatever, I know that you have a problem with me.
I actually don't have a problem with you, I'm just trying to understand the rationale behind your points.
deleted responses to comments no longer in his post. --Jae

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthJebus05
-Girl gets sterilized
-Girl has no fear of getting pregnant
-Girl and boy have unprotected sex
-Girl contracts STD

Why does the girl get a STD? Because she had unprotected sex because she was sterilized.
Again, sterilization is a contraceptive measure, NOT an anti-STD measure. It is meant to stop procreation, not sexually transmitted diseases and infections. Were girls forced to undergo mandatory sterilization, they would most likely be informed of this fact. Thus, it would be extremely unlikely for a girl to say "Oh, I'm sterilized, that means I can't get pregnant and catch STDs, so I'm going to have unprotected sex!" rendering your point rather unfounded. To assume that they would think sterilization gives them carte blanche to go around and have unprotected sex and not worry about STDs is ludicrous.




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Old 03-06-2008, 04:23 AM   #56
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I'm sorry, I shouldn't have gotten agitated.

Thats what I've been meaning, even if girls are sterilized, they can still catch STD's. But if they can't get pregnant, they would want to have unprotected sex. As hormones can be more powerful the willpower. I remember reading a story about a girl and her 'sex buddy', the condom broke and she said "Doesn't matter, keep going". She caught a STD and almost died from it.

Again, I apologize.
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Old 03-06-2008, 04:43 AM   #57
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Rapists don't usually think about how sterile a woman is before raping her. The smarter ones will douche or clean the girl if they didn't use a condom. And, even without getting the girl pregnant there are hundreds, if not thousands of different ways to catch rapists. Fluids, hairs, victim description, etc.

Also, not all rapists have STDs. STDs, despite popular belief, are not as common as you'd think. It isn't as simple as looking at a crowd of people and saying 1/4 of them have an STD. If the two people are smart, and know the signs, then they wont contract an STD. If someone has an STD, regardless of protection or not, it can still be passed on to the partner.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthJebus05
-Girl gets sterilized
-Girl has no fear of getting pregnant
-Girl and boy have unprotected sex
-Girl contracts STD

Why does the girl get a STD? Because she had unprotected sex because she was sterilized.
Yeah, because sterile girls are so much better at this sex thing. *rolls eyes*

Sterilization wont make nymphomaniacs out of the girls. It will make them sterile. Will that make them more open for sex? Possibly, and that depends on the girl in question. Any person that runs recklessly into sex, homosexual/straight, sterile/fertile, etc is asking for trouble regardless. The dangers of sex are not limited to the physical aspects, as the emotional connection and injuries created by sex can be just as harmful. I have seen plenty of people be ruined by sex without ever having a child or an STD.

Also, again, you seem to believe that STDs are just waiting for you to slip up to grab you. In order for your theory to be correct, the girls would be sterilized and then try and have sex with as many people as possible, and even then there is a chance of nobody ending up with an STD. There are girls that would do that, but the thing is... girls like that would sleep around regardless of being sterile or not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthJebus05
Thats what I've been meaning, even if girls are sterilized, they can still catch STD's. But if they can't get pregnant, they would want to have unprotected sex. As hormones can be more powerful the willpower. I remember reading a story about a girl and her 'sex buddy', the condom broke and she said "Doesn't matter, keep going". She caught a STD and almost died from it.
Yep, because -all- girls are like that. Again, you are talking about a small group of girls who screw people whenever they get the inclination. In another word: morons.

So, she said keep on going? In my personal opinion she deserved what she got. Only a complete and utter idiot, regardless of being in the moment or not, would continue going after a condom breaks. It takes an even bigger idiot to not try and find out that your partner has an STD. I believe the system in which she threw herself into is called "Natural Selection".

Please don't put those of us with intelligence into the same league as the girls you are describing. Pregnancy is a risk of sex, but it is hardly the only reason people stay away from it.

Will people have sex more when they cannot get pregnant? Yeah. Look at married couples.

Will it lead them into a hellhole of STDs? If you live in Africa, yeah.

If I'm misinterpreting something, tell me and I'll correct it.
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Old 03-06-2008, 05:27 AM   #58
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Why sterilization? Why not some sort of hormone repression therapy?

Or how about we just snip the nerves to the genitalia of all kids and weld them back together when they turn 18?


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Old 03-06-2008, 06:49 AM   #59
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I didn't get the impression that the woman in the article was talking about permanent sterilization but probably more along the lines of what you suggest (think something along the lines of Norplant). As for the guys, I'm sure there's some drug that the pharmaceutical companies would be happy to develop if they haven't already.


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Old 03-06-2008, 07:00 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth333
Every jurisdiction has its own laws so that is not case everywhere. Besides, as to the age of consent to sexual relationships it varies greatly from country to country (and I think in the US it's a state thing). Dunno how accurate it is but this page should give you an idea: http://www.ageofconsent.com/ageofconsent.htm

In Canada it can go as young as 12 yrs old if the other person is no more than 2yrs older.
I was speaking in relation to the Article, "Teenage girls to be sterilized in Britain",
not "Children to be made baron in South Carolina", people on this forum have a habit of taking a subject and running with it lol. but yes you are of course right in what you say, only I was talking specifically not generally.


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Old 03-06-2008, 08:32 AM   #61
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@DarthJebus05,
As Niner has repeatedly pointed out, rapists are not exactly worried about whether or not they spawn babies from the act. Besides that, not all girls are of the mindset 'BOINK UNTIL THE WORLD GOES UP IN FLAMES!'. Even if that were the case, wouldn't it better to tackle the problem at its root and calmly explain to said girls why it is not a good idea to do so? Ditto for boys.

@QLiveur, you try that and let us know how it goes;p Bear in mind that nerves...don't heal very well, to put it mildly.



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Old 03-06-2008, 09:31 AM   #62
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Rapists are in no way concerned about their victims. Otherwise they would not rape them in the first place, all along with the girl begging him to stop or something. DarthJebus05, you make it sound as if all girls would just wait to be raped, and as if both victim and rapist take themselves all time in this world to have a nice time together, eh. I think you should get your view on that matter straight asap, I mean I would in no way be surprised if the next thing you say is it's the women's fault when they get raped 'cause they wear skirts.

Also the primarily goal of safe sex is not contraception but protection against STDs of any kind, almost every condom advertisement is telling us that.


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Old 03-06-2008, 01:51 PM   #63
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Well these problems will never be truly fixed until all of humanity learns common sense, which will never happen, but it's important that we try to help most of humanity learn common sense, even if it doesn't completely fix it, the effort will make problems like these better.


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Old 03-06-2008, 02:21 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcesious
Well these problems will never be truly fixed until all of humanity learns common sense.
Define 'common sense' and how it can possibly be applied universally.


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Old 03-06-2008, 02:28 PM   #65
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unless you're going to get draconian, you really can't do much other than mitigate the worst effects of problems like these. More education's always a good thing and would make a difference for most I think, but there are still people for whom it won't really change their behavior.


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Old 03-06-2008, 03:56 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcesious
Well these problems will never be truly fixed until all of humanity learns common sense, which will never happen, but it's important that we try to help most of humanity learn common sense, even if it doesn't completely fix it, the effort will make problems like these better.
As Jae gets at, since "common sense" is not a universal standard, you(not YOU you, hypohtetical you) are either arguing for everyone to do what they feel is personally best, or you are arguing for everyone to adopt your common sense.


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Old 03-06-2008, 04:41 PM   #67
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While there are no doubt some aspects of "common sense" that may be rooted in culture (flashing the "peace sign" may be interpreted differently somewhere else), there are plenty of examples that are more universal. Granted, some degree of education is necessary (either theorhetical or via observation) to make an informed "common sensical" decision (water and electricity), but many things transcend cultures. For instance, don't wipe your arse with your bare hand and then eat something with it before cleaning that hand off. Don't just rip something out of someone's hand that's bigger than you (or even smaller) and not expect a bad reaction. Don't flash your cash/wealth while walking about in a poorly lit or crime ridden neighborhood. Don't have unprotected sex and think that there won't be any problems at all. There are no doubt a great many more examples, but I'll stop here.


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

How would you like to own a little bit of my foot in your ass.---Red Foreman
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Old 03-06-2008, 11:15 PM   #68
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I'd argue that there are places where you saying that some of those are common sense would be utterly astonishing to some people.


"If force is the game, the murderer wins over the pickpocket." Ayn Rand

"Justice is the midpoint between being treated unjustly, and treating others unjustly." Aristotle
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Old 03-07-2008, 02:23 AM   #69
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I don't see what the big problem with this is. If the girl is going to have sex, she's going to have sex. I can't imagine how anyone could be opposed to something that would reduce the abortion rate, the teen pregnancy rate, and reduce the rate of population growth - isn't just about everybody concerned about at least one of those? As long as the sterilization is safe and not permanent, I have no problem with it. Now, this very well may have some unintended side-effects, but assuming it's safe and effective, I see nothing wrong with it.

I mean, I'd prefer it wasn't necessary, but I gave up on members of the human race keeping their various organs in their pants years ago, this is the next best thing.
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Old 03-07-2008, 05:06 PM   #70
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You mean, they are all dangling out now? Fortunately/unfortunately I cannot see that from where I am standing.

Well, it should be an option for the girls, but not something to be forced on them. I mean, there are side-effects to any chemicals we take, known or unknown.
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Old 03-07-2008, 06:09 PM   #71
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Actually, this should be a decision the parents make, because as irresponsible as parents tend to be these days, teens are even worse. However, I agree it should be tested before it sees widespread use.
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Old 03-07-2008, 06:24 PM   #72
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How wrong does it sounds when it's forced on them? We sterilize dogs and cats and cows, why not humans too?

The whole concept is ridiculous and brutally murder my precepts of personal liberties.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthJebus05
Lets say you're a rapist. And you might get aids from a girl you rape. Would you rape without a condom? I know I wouldn't, and I'm not saying I will or ever rape, but if I forgot 'my' condom, I would leave the girl there and go find another one after I got the condom first.
I think you're overestimating the intelligence of the rapist.


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Old 03-08-2008, 03:53 AM   #73
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You'd probably have to be a pretty conscientious rapist to be worried about whether you'll be getting an std, especially given how "normal" people often proceed to have sex even if they don't have one anyway. I don't think a rapist is going to see a woman and then look in his wallet and go..."Damn, gotta get some condoms and wait for the next potential victim".


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

How would you like to own a little bit of my foot in your ass.---Red Foreman
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Old 03-09-2008, 12:44 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthJebus05
-Girl gets sterilized
-Girl has no fear of getting pregnant
-Girl and boy have unprotected sex
-Girl contracts STD
Are you saying all boys have STDs, or are you assuming STDs appear out of then air when two people have sex?



Should teenage girls be "sterilized"? Yes and no. Yes, because teenagers are stupid. No, because I think that violates some basic human rights or something.
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Old 03-09-2008, 01:47 AM   #75
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Maybe he thinks STD's are created during a sex act. Seems clear to me he has no idea how the world works, which makes me wonder why people keep replying to his posts.

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Old 03-09-2008, 01:59 AM   #76
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Because it boggles the mind:P



The sun goes down and the sky reddens, pain grows sharp.
light dwindles. Then is evening
when jasmine flowers open, the deluded say.
But evening is the great brightening dawn
when crested cocks crow all through the tall city
and evening is the whole day
for those without their lovers

-Kuruntokai 234, translated by A.K. Ramanujan

[Fic] Shreds of a Dying Belief
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Old 03-09-2008, 03:04 AM   #77
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Probably b/c some people wish to rip someone else a new one every once in awhile, even if only for sport.


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

How would you like to own a little bit of my foot in your ass.---Red Foreman
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Old 03-09-2008, 04:52 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corinthian
Actually, this should be a decision the parents make, because as irresponsible as parents tend to be these days, teens are even worse. However, I agree it should be tested before it sees widespread use.
It should be a decision NOT MADE AT ALL without the consent of the person it's being made about. People should NEVER, absolutely 100% NEVER have any medical procedure done to them without their consent. There are of course, exceptions when the capability to consent comes into question.

However, being a "teen" is neither a mental disorder, a physical handicap, or a disease that renders people under the age of 18 incapable of making a decision for themselves. Not everyone falling into the age grouping of 13 to 19 are the same, they are not all equal, and the mental facilities of many are far more mature than those of many others.

An interesting statistic I would be curious to find out would be if the girls who are promiscuous are really the ones getting pregnant. If my friend is any example, it was her first time having sex, and she happened to be drunk, no condom, and oops, baby.


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Old 03-09-2008, 04:55 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bee Hoon
@QLiveur, you try that and let us know how it goes;p Bear in mind that nerves...don't heal very well, to put it mildly.
You do know that I was being sarcastic, don't you?

Still, neither proposition that I put forth was any more ridiculous than the topic of this thread. I can't help but think that life would be far simpler if humanity just divided like amoebae.

Maybe the Solarians had the right idea after all.


"They should rename the team to the Washington Government Sucks. Put Obama on the helmet. Line the entire walls of the stadium with the actual text of the ACA.
Fix their home team score on the board to the debt clock, they can win every game 17,000,000,000,000 to 24. Losing team gets taxed by the IRS 100%, then droned."
-Toker
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Old 03-09-2008, 05:10 AM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Qliveur
You do know that I was being sarcastic, don't you?

Still, neither proposition that I put forth was any more ridiculous than the topic of this thread. I can't help but think that life would be far simpler if humanity just divided like amoebae.

Maybe the Solarians had the right idea after all.
NO... you mean having a bunch of Britney running around is a good idea?
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