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Old 03-09-2008, 05:13 AM   #81
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Old 03-09-2008, 02:50 PM   #82
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^Shhh, don't tell that to the Royal family (or most of WV).


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Old 03-09-2008, 04:14 PM   #83
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People under 18/21 don't have very strong rights, under the law. For example:

Limited freedom of speech: When A teacher in school tells you to be quiet, you have to be quiet, because you're under 18. If you're not, he/she can give you a detention or a pink slip.
No drinking under 21.
No unsupervised driving under 16.
You have to take out the trash and do your chores your parents tell you to, or else you'll get grounded.
Children are often less punished than adults for major crimes, such as if a child commits murder or soemthing, in the trial they get their lawyer/attorney usually goes for the insanity plea, do to the fact that children are considered to naturally not be mentally sane at their age.
Etc, etc...

Basically under the law, children/teens have very limited rights. They are subject to the adults' authority, as the majority of kids/teens in their age group is considered to be mentally unstable and irrational. This is somewhat scientifically true too. Children's and teens' brains are developign during their age, children are naturally insane without proper discipline and teaching due to their not fully developed brains, and teens often are insane and irrational from hormones. As adults, most adults are rational, as their brains are fully developed, which gives them more complex thinking capability. This is not true to everyone however, but it is to the majority of humanity.


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Old 03-09-2008, 04:27 PM   #84
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What are you talking about? You're talking about 'fluffy' rights. You know, optional, additional right. Saying that people under 21 can't drink doesn't mean you should remove their right to decide what happens to their body.

Seriously. What do you actually know about the law, and which parts are you making up?

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Old 03-09-2008, 06:22 PM   #85
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What on earth is all this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcesious
Limited freedom of speech: When A teacher in school tells you to be quiet, you have to be quiet, because you're under 18.
Teachers reserve the right to expel students from their class regardless of the age in question. How on earth do you think college professors keep their classrooms in order? By asking 'be quiet' with a please at the end?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcesious
No unsupervised driving under 16.
Letting children drive before their motor skills are fully developed is laughable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcesious
You have to take out the trash and do your chores your parents tell you to, or else you'll get grounded.
That's not a law, that's the social contract in action on a small level. If you'd rather not give up some of your time to help your parents out, there's no reason to expect them to give something similar up. (The money spent feeding and clothing you.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcesious
Children are often less punished than adults for major crimes, such as if a child commits murder or soemthing, in the trial they get their lawyer/attorney usually goes for the insanity plea, do to the fact that children are considered to naturally not be mentally sane at their age.
No, it's because they aren't yet cognitively developed to the point they can distinct between right and wrong. As that fact applies to the majority of them, it's logically inconsistent of you to refer to a common state of mind as a deviating one.

Further, there's enough blanket in that statement to warm Nepal for a year. Have you read anything about the juvenile justice system? Their rights and punishments vary greatly depending on their age (I think the general categories are 0-7, 8-15 and 16+), and there are the gods know how many minor laws in regards to specific ages.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcesious
teens often are insane
See above statement on logical inconsistency. If they are all 'insane', as you put it, from unavoidable factors that come with their age, it's no longer insanity. You cannot refer to a normal state of mind as an abnormal one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcesious
most adults are rational
Aha.

Ahahaha.

Ahahahaha.

No.

Cognitively developed, for the most part yes. Rational? Hell no.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inyri Forge
Seriously. What do you actually know about the law, and which parts are you making up?
QFE. I fail to see the relevance of any of this to state-sponsored sterilization. (Such a decision should be the parents' at the absolute most.)


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Old 03-09-2008, 06:32 PM   #86
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Why, Web Rider? We do lots of things without asking for the person most affected's consent. Like, for example, abortion. And you can hem and haw about how they may or may not have the mental faculties to not want to die, but the fact remains that you're taking a living creature's life without it's consent. This isn't so bad, you're just denying a stupid move, not preforming a contract hit on a baby.
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Old 03-09-2008, 06:56 PM   #87
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Jeez. I was actually expecting a good reaction to the post I just made. But you have to go and tear it apart, assuming that I don't know what I'm talking about because I didn't describe it in more complex terms. The point I was trying to make is that teens are subject to whatever adults decide. I know how the Juvenile Justice System works, and as I mentioned, with children, the insanity plea is often used for trying to win trials on children committing crimes. The reason you must have taken my post the complete opposite way of my intentions was probably because I didn't refer to the limitedness of childs' minds as cognitively undeveloped, which was because I had not heard of that term until now, but as I attempted to describe, it means the same thing. Certain things I mentioned were not laws, sorry for not making that clear; but my whole point is that children and teens are subject to the decision and command of the adults, even if it seems morally wrong. I have decided to change my position in this debate, as you said, it should at most be the parent's decision whether or not to sterilize their child, either that or not doing it at all, as doing this won't solve the problem, and can bring up even more problems. I also revoke my statement that 'the majority of adults are rational'. Also, when I said 'no unsupervised driving under 16', that meant that it's important that there is adult training the teenager how to drive before they get their license at 16, but of course, no driving at all before 15! You took that one way too literally. (This was mostly directed at Emporer Devon)


Please feed the trolls. XD
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Old 03-09-2008, 07:22 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcesious
Jeez. I was actually expecting a good reaction to the post I just made. But you have to go and tear it apart, assuming that I don't know what I'm talking about because I didn't describe it in more complex terms.
Doy you now? I'm sure you're quite the attorney yourself. Plus, we're talking about the british laws here.

Quote:
I have decided to change my position in this debate, as you said, it should at most be the parent's decision whether or not to sterilize their child, either that or not doing it at all, as doing this won't solve the problem, and can bring up even more problems.
Let's suppose, for a moment, that this sterilization techniques applies for men as well. And let's assume you're male and under 18 (Which I believe, is right according to other of your posts).

Would it be fine if your parents, for your sake of course, decided to sterilize you for life without your consent?


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Old 03-09-2008, 07:34 PM   #89
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Oh... I must have forgotten that. British laws, not U.S laws... My bad. Yeah I don't know jack about british laws, so I guess you're right. Your arguement has swayed me. I agree with you, this sterlilization thing is a bad idea.


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Old 03-09-2008, 07:37 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcesious
Oh... I must have forgotten that. British laws, not U.S laws... My bad. Yeah I don't know jack about british laws, so I guess you're right. Your arguement has swayed me. I agree with you, this sterlilization thing is a bad idea.
There's hope for you yet, then.


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Old 03-09-2008, 09:18 PM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcesious
Jeez. I was actually expecting a good reaction to the post I just made.
Lulz.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcesious
But you have to go and tear it apart, assuming that I don't know what I'm talking about because I didn't describe it in more complex terms.
The complexity of the terms you use to describe your suppositions is irrelevant. They are wrong, regardless of the terminology involved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcesious
The point I was trying to make is that teens are subject to whatever adults decide.
They are subject to what their country's government, their schools and their family decide, not simply what 'adults' do.

But I can understand what you're trying to say. For point of reference it's extraordinarily common knowledge (even amongst a population as uninformed as ours), and only makes it look like you're treating the people in this thread as children.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcesious
I know how the Juvenile Justice System works,
It's not capitalized.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcesious
and as I mentioned, with children, the insanity plea is often used
No, the plea used is that as minors they are unable to differentiate between right and wrong. A plea of insanity does make the same claim, but the name should give you the knock-off that it's meant for people who usually are able to see a difference between the two.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcesious
The reason you must have taken my post the complete opposite way of my intentions was probably because I didn't refer to the limitedness of childs' minds as cognitively undeveloped,
No, it's because you're making erroneous statements which you continue to pass off as fact.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcesious
I had not heard of that term until now, but as I attempted to describe, it means the same thing.
The terminology used is irrelevant as long as the meaning is the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcesious
my whole point is that children and teens are subject to the decision and command of the adults,
See above reply on common knowledge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcesious
even if it seems morally wrong.
At what instance is this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcesious
I have decided to change my position in this debate, as you said, it should at most be the parent's decision whether or not to sterilize their child,
Well, at least you're open-minded about the topic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcesious
Also, when I said 'no unsupervised driving under 16', that meant that it's important that there is adult training the teenager how to drive
There is no direct correlation between those two statements.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcesious
You took that one way too literally.
Is there a way I should view the content of your posts other than by the exact statements made in them?


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Old 03-09-2008, 09:23 PM   #92
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I see your point.


Please feed the trolls. XD

Last edited by Arcesious; 03-09-2008 at 10:40 PM.
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Old 03-10-2008, 12:24 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corinthian
Why, Web Rider? We do lots of things without asking for the person most affected's consent. Like, for example, abortion. And you can hem and haw about how they may or may not have the mental faculties to not want to die, but the fact remains that you're taking a living creature's life without it's consent. This isn't so bad, you're just denying a stupid move, not preforming a contract hit on a baby.
mhmm, mhmmm, yeah...mhmmm, oh...wait, what were you saying? I was actually staying on topic, and anything that would derail from that point just goes in one ear and out the other.

We kill far smarter things than fetuses all the time. It's a little hard for me to hear you defend a fetus while you eat that burger.

while we're still off topic, do quote me if you're going to respond to me a page later.

Quote:
even if it seems morally wrong
Actually, no. Children are not subject to morally wrong, or seemingly morally wrong decisions of adults. This is why children cannot be locked up in a closet without the parents getting in trouble. This is why it's not legal to molest kids or beat them.


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Old 03-10-2008, 03:54 PM   #94
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Cows aren't human, thus it's not homocide, for one thing. Also, I bet my fetus will do better than your cow on an internet IQ test. Goo is the answer to at least one question usually. Moo is almost never the answer to any of the questions.
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Old 03-10-2008, 05:45 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corinthian
Cows aren't human, thus it's not homocide, for one thing. Also, I bet my fetus will do better than your cow on an internet IQ test. Goo is the answer to at least one question usually. Moo is almost never the answer to any of the questions.
Since when has intelligence justified whether one life is more important than another? Plants and many animals may not be able to do math, but I happen to like the fact they recycle the air and keep a natural cycle going when we aren't killing them. Animals feel pain, they can feel emotion. Your fetus's capability of that is debatable, and even that depends entirely on opinion and gestation period.

And no, Goo is not an answer to this question.

Anyway, why is this even being talked about in this thread? I thought this was about sterilization.
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Old 03-10-2008, 06:10 PM   #96
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I have a feeling a point made about sentient potential of human fetuses if they are allowed to develope and become complete human beings from an old abortion debate thread is going to be made...


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Old 03-10-2008, 06:23 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by True_Avery
Anyway, why is this even being talked about in this thread? I thought this was about sterilization.
Changing the subject when you have a weak argument has been a tactic of XPERT DEBATERS since forever Avery.



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Old 03-10-2008, 06:35 PM   #98
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So, in summary, what Ctrl_Alt_Del's 'how would you feel if this was forced on you' argument seems to completely answer this thread's topic. Doing this sterlization against another person's will is wrong.


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Old 03-10-2008, 06:48 PM   #99
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Meh. Who cares what's right and wrong anyway? Morality being relative is all the rage these days.
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Old 03-10-2008, 07:01 PM   #100
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I care, as do many other people.


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Old 03-10-2008, 07:34 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corinthian
Meh. Who cares what's right and wrong anyway? Morality being relative is all the rage these days.
It's not just about morality (which I could give a damn about) though. It's about basic human rights and the government trying to deny them. If the government denies one right, what's to stop them from denying another? It's a bit of a selfish reason, but a reason nevertheless.



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Old 03-10-2008, 07:48 PM   #102
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Basic Human Rights are based around morality. For example, it was not considered immoral to keep slaves in the 16th Century, but we would consider it a violation of basic human rights. Morality and Human Rights go hand in hand, and with moral relativism, you can march it in any way you want! Why do humans deserve rights anyway?
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Old 03-10-2008, 07:51 PM   #103
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Some do not desrve rights, like mass-murderers, but many others do. We are sentient beings, and frankly what you're implying is that we shouldn't have rights, which is a just plain stupid thing to do, after all we've achieved.


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Old 03-10-2008, 07:52 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corinthian
Why do humans deserve rights anyway?
A good question, why DO you deserve rights?


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Old 03-10-2008, 08:01 PM   #105
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I really have no idea why I deserve rights now that I think about it, but saying so isn't going to change anything. I sure don't want to lose my rights, which is what Corinthian is implying we do... Taking way our rights won't make the sterlization idea any more 'just'.


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Old 03-10-2008, 08:10 PM   #106
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I don't deserve rights. Very few people have actually earned the rights that they demand they are owed. Without a sacrifice of blood, no one would ever have any real rights. It's really rather ironic - Our higher learning and such, the things that bring us furthest from our primal nature, is protected by that same primal nature that we try to deny.

These teenagers, what exactly do they contribute to society beyond a strain on Britain's magnificent economy, unwanted children who are either aborted or shuttled off to foster care, or just 'cared' for by their child mother? From what I know of teenagers, and that's a reasonable amount, I'd say jack squat. I mean, the day that Britain desperately needs a battalion of horny teenagers to squeeze out an army of squalling infants, these will be the first in line to join up, no doubt, But I'd say the last thing Britain or anyone else needs is more unwanted children - it's not like we haven't already slaughtered enough babies to fill up Auschwitz. A few times over. We've probably had enough baby blood flowing down sinks to paint every door in the nation red. I wonder if that would have been effective at Passover?
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Old 03-10-2008, 08:18 PM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corinthian
Basic Human Rights are based around morality. For example, it was not considered immoral to keep slaves in the 16th Century, but we would consider it a violation of basic human rights. Morality and Human Rights go hand in hand, and with moral relativism, you can march it in any way you want! Why do humans deserve rights anyway?
Would you prefer it if you had no rights? I think most people can agree we should have at least a few rights that shouldn't have to be earned. Rather than morality, I think this consensus is reached because of selfishness. I also think that morality is bull**** and that all people decide things based on their own self-interest and not the morals they claim to have.



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Old 03-10-2008, 08:27 PM   #108
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Many people do, Jmac, but not all. Morality is in no way BS. Without morality there woudl be no people who care about anyone. Okay, lets take away morality for awhile.
Without morality black-skinned people would still be slaves.
You see an old lady crossing the street, carrying some groceries. Since you don't want to be moral at all, you don't help her, and she has to suffer from her arthritis trying to carry those groceries.
You are tryign to make a treaty with a country you really hate. since you have no morality, you just argue with them and cuss at them and they declare war on you.
Without morality many laws would not exist and many horrible crimes would not be punished.
Without morality, the governement wouldn't care about protecting it's citizens, and they wouldn't have any national security. No law enforcement people would care either. Nobody would bother to make mods for other people in games. No one would have done anything about rescuing Hurricaine Katrina victims. No doctors would treat your diseases and make medicines. Farmers would keep their crops for themselves. There would be no orphanages or foster homes either. Your parents would leave you out on the streets to rot. There would be no holidays, no Christmas. The world would have dictators like Hitler ruling it, making your life miserable. Don't give this crap that morality is BS. Without morality, humanity would never have gotten this far.
And there's oh-so-many other different ways that the world would be worse without morality.


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Old 03-10-2008, 09:02 PM   #109
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Read my above post, Jmac. Also, if you don't believe in an objective morality, how can you believe in an objective system of human rights?
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Old 03-10-2008, 09:09 PM   #110
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Morality is important to our every day society. Since it influences our actions. All of our actions are influenced on what we perceive of right and wrong. We wouldn't be human if we couldn't project our mortality


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Old 03-10-2008, 09:47 PM   #111
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Morality, of the absolute or even relative kind, is no more than a system of rules about what we should and should not do. The problem with relative morality has always been that if you say all codes are equal, you have shot yourself in the foot with relation to make statements about what is wrong or right. It may seem wrong to you, but who's asking you anyway, especially if your way clashes with the other guy's. In a relativistic world, it is ultimately the code of the most powerful that wins out over the competing codes in deciding what goes on in society. You can think or feel what you want, but it won't matter to anyone else but you. Sort of like anarchy being diplaced by some form of order. We have rights (or not) either based on what we've decided we should get or what some third party has granted us (in the case of religion for instance). Regardless of the system in place, it's the nature of our rights that will always be in question. So, how does one go about defining these rights in the first place (either system still requires people to come to a decision or revelation as to what is and is not a right)? Under what conditions can these rights be proscribed or even expanded? If man/govt decides what those "rights" are, they can take them away with virtual impunity, rendering them little more than priveleges. So, if Britain says that teenage girls must be sterilized between 12-17 (or some other arbitrary range), then they aren't violating anyone's rights. If you believe that our rights come from somewhere else, you'll see it differently.


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Last edited by Totenkopf; 03-10-2008 at 11:45 PM.
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Old 03-10-2008, 10:21 PM   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcesious
Without morality black-skinned people would still be slaves.
The Civil War is similar to the war in Iraq in that large corporations benefited financially by rebuilding southern cities - which were completely destroyed by the North's policy of burning everything to the ground.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcesious
You see an old lady crossing the street, carrying some groceries. Since you don't want to be moral at all, you don't help her, and she has to suffer from her arthritis trying to carry those groceries.
Honestly, how often does that happen? And the real reason behind such actions is that some people gain a feeling of satisfaction from making others happy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcesious
You are tryign to make a treaty with a country you really hate. since you have no morality, you just argue with them and cuss at them and they declare war on you.
Uh, no. Why would you piss them off and go to war (other than the reason I gave for the Civil War)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcesious
Without morality many laws would not exist and many horrible crimes would not be punished.
Once again, no. Laws are in the best interest of many due to the deterrent effect punishment has on potential offenders.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcesious
Without morality, the governement wouldn't care about protecting it's citizens, and they wouldn't have any national security.
The government is allowed to keep its power because citizens allow it to. If its citizens received nothing in return, why would they agree to follow the government's rules?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcesious
And there's oh-so-many other different ways that the world would be worse without morality.
Not really. Many parts of the world are no better than they were when they were ungoverned and no one was expected to behave "morally". The only difference is that they can rape and pillage more efficiently because of new technologies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcesious
No law enforcement people would care either.
They get paid to care in case you didn't know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcesious
Nobody would bother to make mods for other people in games.
Some people like to do that stuff. For example, I like to write code.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcesious
No one would have done anything about rescuing Hurricaine Katrina victims.
Not the greatest example, FYI.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcesious
No doctors would treat your diseases and make medicines.
Doctors get paid too AFAIK.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcesious
Farmers would keep their crops for themselves.
#define REASON $$$

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcesious
There would be no orphanages or foster homes either.
What? You want even more homeless people on the streets? Sorry, but I say "I don't have any money on me" enough already.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcesious
Your parents would leave you out on the streets to rot.
  • Parents who treat their children properly most likely wanted to have kids.
  • Parents who didn't want to have kids usually treat them like ****.
  • Child abuse laws.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcesious
There would be no holidays, no Christmas.
YES THERE WOULDN'T BE HOLIDAYS WHERE PEOPLE GET **** AND HAVE PARTIES.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcesious
The world would have dictators like Hitler ruling it, making your life miserable.
YES PEOPLE WOULD JUST BEND OVER AND TAKE IT FOREVER AND EVER AND EVER.

And in my opinion, "moral" actions are not equivalent to being nice. I'm not cynical enough to believe that there is no goodness in the world, I'm just saying the motivation behind people being nice to one another isn't some abstract idea supposedly handed down to us by some douchebag deity thousands of years ago.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Corinthian
Read my above post, Jmac. Also, if you don't believe in an objective morality, how can you believe in an objective system of human rights?
If you want to count selfishness as a moral, fine.



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Old 03-10-2008, 10:50 PM   #113
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We didn't have to free the slaves to win the Civil War, Jmac. In fact, we might have been better off not freeing the slaves, strategically.

You mean a virtue. And, no. Selfishness is immoral. But without an objective system of morality, seflishness can get sorted into the good, bad, ugly, middle, up, down, left, right, between, or behind areas.
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Old 03-10-2008, 11:01 PM   #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corinthian
We didn't have to free the slaves to win the Civil War, Jmac. In fact, we might have been better off not freeing the slaves, strategically.
Yeah, but no one would support a war unless there was a reason, and the secession of the South was a reason the public could get behind. And we didn't exactly free the slaves. For years after the Civil War they were forced to work for next to nothing, as were poor whites in the South. So really, the government freed them on paper, but effectively kept them enslaved and in the same motion, enslaved poor whites as well.

You can't play chess without pawns.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Corinthian
You mean a virtue. And, no. Selfishness is immoral. But without an objective system of morality, seflishness can get sorted into the good, bad, ugly, middle, up, down, left, right, between, or behind areas.
Fantastic. I count it as an instinct. And as I've said before, I believe morality is bull****. It's just something society likes to say exists because we like to dupe ourselves into thinking that we're a superior species.



"No, Mama. You can bet your sweet ass and half a titty whoever put that hit on you already got the cops in their back pocket." ~Black Dynamite
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Old 03-10-2008, 11:27 PM   #115
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Wow. Wow. And wow...

Quote:
The Civil War is similar to the war in Iraq in that large corporations benefited financially by rebuilding southern cities - which were completely destroyed by the North's policy of burning everything to the ground.
Yes, but it was morally wrong to enslave black people to do the work against their will.

Quote:
Honestly, how often does that happen? And the real reason behind such actions is that some people gain a feeling of satisfaction from making others happy.
Quite a lot, actually, if you attribute what I said as happening in different ways and in other situations where it would be morally right to help a person. So you are telling me it's a bad thing to help someone, because it makes you feel good; that it's a bad thing to feel good about helpign someone? I think not.

Quote:
Uh, no. Why would you piss them off and go to war (other than the reason I gave for the Civil War)?
You would piss them off because you have no morals. Say, for example, a country of black people are who you're negotiating with. They want you to stop enslaving their people. You say "no way! 'F word' you, you 'N word', because you have no morality. And they declare war on you.

Quote:
Once again, no. Laws are in the best interest of many due to the deterrent effect punishment has on potential offenders.
The best interest? No one has any morality in your proposition. So that means no women's rights would never had been made, and no black rights, in fact, no rights for anyone, just survival of the fittest, as no one cares at all. The 'leaders' wouldn't make laws because they would want to commit crimes such as rape and murder themselves, because they have no morality.

Quote:
The government is allowed to keep its power because citizens allow it to. If its citizens received nothing in return, why would they agree to follow the government's rules?
'Survival of the fittest'. The leaders would be the 'fittest' in a non-moral situation. The citizens would have no choice.

Quote:
Not really. Many parts of the world are no better than they were when they were ungoverned and no one was expected to behave "morally". The only difference is that they can rape and pillage more efficiently because of new technologies.
Oh really? The United States seems a lot nicer after Martin Luther King stepped in, and after the Soviet Union was reformed. Not to mention countless other reforms that made the world better, due to people who were moral and just, even if it's still really bad.

Quote:
They get paid to care in case you didn't know.
Since there are no morals, I'm guessign the 'law' enforcement would be paid to capture people to torture for fun.

Quote:
Some people like to do that stuff. For example, I like to write code.
Yes, they do, but they would keep it only for themselves to enjoy.

Quote:
Not the greatest example, FYI.
Oh really? But it still gets the point accross, no matter how good of an example it was.

Quote:
Doctors get paid too AFAIK.
Do you really think anyone would even care to pay the doctors, since there's no morality, the people with money would keep it for themselves in most situations. They'd probably just force doctors to work.

Quote:
#define REASON $$$
The farmers wouldn't get paid at all for their crops, remember, no morality. They'd just have their crops stolen. That's one reason why they'd keep the crops for themselves.

Quote:
YES THERE WOULDN'T BE HOLIDAYS WHERE PEOPLE GET **** AND HAVE PARTIES.
Getting a little mad there, huh? Glad to see you admitted that I was right about that though.

Quote:
YES PEOPLE WOULD JUST BEND OVER AND TAKE IT FOREVER AND EVER AND EVER.

And in my opinion, "moral" actions are not equivalent to being nice. I'm not cynical enough to believe that there is no goodness in the world, I'm just saying the motivation behind people being nice to one another isn't some abstract idea supposedly handed down to us by some douchebag deity thousands of years ago.
Uh-huh... Nice rant there...

Quote:
If you want to count selfishness as a moral, fine.
Selfishness? Selfishness? You call helping other people selfishness? Okay, what about the people who donate all of their money and time to helping the poor? It's selfish because helping people makes them feel good? Have fun trying to get that opinion accross as fact in this debate...

Quote:
Yeah, but no one would support a war unless there was a reason, and the secession of the South was a reason the public could get behind. And we didn't exactly free the slaves. For years after the Civil War they were forced to work for next to nothing, as were poor whites in the South. So really, the government freed them on paper, but effectively kept them enslaved and in the same motion, enslaved poor whites as well.

You can't play chess without pawns.
Then lets be moral and do something about it.

Quote:
Fantastic. I count it as an instinct. And as I've said before, I believe morality is bull****. It's just something society likes to say exists because we like to dupe ourselves into thinking that we're a superior species.
You believe. No proof whatsoever. We're not 'duping ourselves' into thinking we're a superior species. You're just trying to say you and all humanity are stupid, which is untrue. how about the geniuses and great people of the human race? They're not superior? And morality does exist? Without it humanity would have completely obliterated itself with fuedalism long ago.


Please feed the trolls. XD

Last edited by Arcesious; 03-10-2008 at 11:43 PM.
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Old 03-10-2008, 11:29 PM   #116
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Okay everyone your straying off topic. Can you go back to the current topic of Sterilization? If you want to debate Mortality make a new thread about it


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Old 03-10-2008, 11:38 PM   #117
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Jmac, you can't say morality doesn't exist. You can debate as to what is and what isn't moral, but human civilization is based around morality. Now, some people have warped views of morality and the perspective of morality is definitely subjective, but that hardly means there is no such thing as morality. Quite the opposite, in fact. Now, you can deny the existence of a totally objective morality, good luck with that, but you cannot deny the existence of morality. Well, you can, but you make no sense.
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Old 03-11-2008, 12:07 AM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcesious
words
No. You're not reading my posts or something. You're saying lack of morality is equivalent to being a prick - it's not.

Also all of your attempts to refute what I said about personal benefits for each of the examples you gave either don't make sense or make it clear that you misunderstood what I was saying. Good job.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcesious
You believe. No proof whatsoever.
Your opinion. No proof whatsoever. Thanks for playing.


As far as I can tell, your most recent post will just serve to create more comments like this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skype
[10:28:09 PM] ***** *****: I can't believe I read that post of Arcesious'. I think half my brain just shut down...
And yes, I censored out the username.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Corinthian
Jmac, you can't say morality doesn't exist.
I just did.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Corinthian
You can debate as to what is and what isn't moral, but human civilization is based around morality.
In your opinion. In mine it's based around people trying to **** each other for personal gain.

kbai



"No, Mama. You can bet your sweet ass and half a titty whoever put that hit on you already got the cops in their back pocket." ~Black Dynamite
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Old 03-11-2008, 12:12 AM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corinthian
I don't deserve rights. Very few people have actually earned the rights that they demand they are owed. Without a sacrifice of blood, no one would ever have any real rights. It's really rather ironic - Our higher learning and such, the things that bring us furthest from our primal nature, is protected by that same primal nature that we try to deny.
There are 3 "generations" so to speak.

The first generation learns to fight and wages the wars to establish something. The second generation learns science and math and the "sciences" in order to better defend the newly won(freedom) without shedding more blood, and to advance the new(presumably nation). The third generation gets to write the poetry and sing the songs because the generations before them are the ones who died for their rights.

The idea that everyone should have to shed blood in order to have basic rights is essentially saying "more people need to die so others can be free" which is resoundingly stupid.


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Old 03-11-2008, 12:12 AM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmac7142

In your opinion. In mine it's based around people trying to **** each other for personal gain.

kbai
Can you give some examples on why society is based on selfishness and suffering? This sounds more like a dystopian novel then reality


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