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Old 04-07-2008, 10:57 PM   #1
Totenkopf
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The girl can't help it.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080408/...tal_fact_check

So.....if she can't keep her facts straight, can she be trusted to run the country? Handle the 3AM phone call? Does she want to lose or figure she can't no matter what?


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Old 04-07-2008, 11:19 PM   #2
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She repeated a second hand story. She should know better than putting her faith in a second hand story. You would think someone that graduated law school would know better.

I got excited I thought this thread was about an old Journey song from the 80s. Imagine my disappointment.


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Old 04-08-2008, 01:19 AM   #3
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Well according to the article, there was some truth to this. The woman did have a prior incident where she had a $100 barrier to the treatment at one facility, but the other clinic would have treated her. The first clinic did charity cases. and would work out payment plans for those that could not afford treatment. The second(where she unfortunately died) would have worked with her as well, but she had insurance at the time.

Not to mention she retold the story as it was relayed to her. It's not really her fault that the story was not completely true.
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Old 04-08-2008, 01:39 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommycat
Not to mention she retold the story as it was relayed to her. It's not really her fault that the story was not completely true.
She should still know better.


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Old 04-08-2008, 01:48 AM   #5
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The woman had health insurance, and she was never denied treatment when she had the stillbirth and whatever medical condition that lead to her demise 2 weeks later (my educated guess is toxemia or conditions related to toxemia). The family of the dead mother has apparently asked the Clinton campaign not to repeat the story.

No ER can turn away a woman in labor or someone having a life-threatening emergency in any case. If they receive any federal funds (and I don't know any hospital that doesn't since all of them take Medicare), they are obliged to follow this federal requirement.

If Clinton was told the story was true and believed her staff fact-checked it, I'm not entirely sure how she can be held responsible for repeating it until she learned the truth.


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Old 04-08-2008, 01:54 AM   #6
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Considering how easily this story could have (and did) come back to bite her, I'm surprised that she risked telling it. Then again, she also went around telling people that she dodged sniper fire in Bosnia, even though she had to be aware that there were television cameras there at the time. Some people might take this (along with her changing Florida/Michigan narrative) as being indicative of a larger problem with truth-telling (which might also explain sagging poll numbers).
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Old 04-08-2008, 01:54 AM   #7
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Believe me I can't stand Hil, but in this case, she stated that the story was relayed to her, not that she experienced it. I mean this is nowhere near as bad as the landing under sniper fire incident. She was honest in this case, She said, it was a story that was told to her by an officer. And the officer has stated that he told her the story.

Yes she should do better fact finding on stuff like that, but I'm sure you could find a real story like that somewhere. All I'm saying is give her a pass on this one. It's a non-issue.
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Old 04-08-2008, 02:01 AM   #8
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She's a pathological liar. And it makes me giggle so. Obama makes a good way of looking like a racist warmonger, and then we've got Clinton, who lies enough to make O.J. Simpson look like Honest Abe.
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Old 04-08-2008, 02:11 AM   #9
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Once she learned the true story she was obliged to stop re-telling it immediately--there's no way she can fact check everything on her own. That's what her staff is there for.

I've heard of, or experienced, a number of stories of people not getting care because they didn't have coverage or were worried about inadequate coverage. I did first aid for a gentleman at a very large camping event in PA--he'd broken his foot badly enough for the bones to break the skin. We tried desperately to get him to go to the ER but he refused because his CA HMO wouldn't cover out of network ER visits. Another friend of mine hurt his arm at an event and thought he broke it. He didn't want to go get it x-rayed because he was a college student with no insurance and no money. We passed the hat around at the event and raised a couple hundred dollars to help cover the costs, but if we hadn't done that, he wouldn't have gotten help. My best friend refused to go to the hospital for his severe headache until what turned out to be fungal meningitis made him fall unconscious. He nearly died that night.

I could probably tell you dozens of other stories in that same vein.

A lot of people don't get the care they need because they're uninsured or underinsured and just don't have the money to get help. It doesn't surprise me that Hilary believed the story, because with all the problems we have in the US dealing with insurance and paying for health care, something similar to this has very likely happened.


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Old 04-08-2008, 02:32 AM   #10
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The fact remains that she should have checked up on the story instead of speaking of it like it were fact. She is, at best, irresponsible, and considering her little story about the Bosnian Snipers, she appears to be both a liar and an idiot.
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Old 04-08-2008, 02:56 AM   #11
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As far as health care is concerned, I'm actually going to change my stance. While it appears that I have been very fortunate in getting the care I needed when I needed it, I also realize that there are cases where that is not readily available. I think we should work towards a solution that is fair and equitable, possibly a portion of your taxes going into a Health Savings Account would work for some, but I think we need to have several options other than my taxes going to pay for those that choose not to work(my same problem with welfare and how it's been abused).
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Old 04-08-2008, 03:18 AM   #12
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She should have checked her facts anyway.To be convincing you have to know what you're talking about and as for healthcare, I'm an advocate of extending Medicare benefits to everyone. It's far more cheaper and easier to implement than universal health care.


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Old 04-08-2008, 07:40 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JCarter426
She should still know better.
Bull****.

She heard the story from the sheriff. That's a pretty reputable source, and as Jae said, she has staff to do that work for her. This was certainly not her fault and it certainly doesn't indicate a 'larger problem.' Other things might, but not this.

And I'm not even a HRC-fan.

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Old 04-08-2008, 07:58 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderWiggin
Bull****.

She heard the story from the sheriff. That's a pretty reputable source, and as Jae said, she has staff to do that work for her. This was certainly not her fault and it certainly doesn't indicate a 'larger problem.' Other things might, but not this.

And I'm not even a HRC-fan.

_EW_
Thank you... I can't stand her, but even I have to say this is really pushing it. She has enough dirty laundry that this is very petty. There are enough reasons not to trust her. This just falls on the side of "Meh, so the story the cop told was an exageration. Big deal."
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Old 04-08-2008, 08:05 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by EnderWiggin
This was certainly not her fault and it certainly doesn't indicate a 'larger problem.' Other things might, but not this.
Didn't say it was. All I said was that she should know better than to tell stories that are probably nothing more than that, because petty people will hold it against her (while they ignore her other problems...).


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Old 04-08-2008, 11:31 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommycat
Thank you... I can't stand her, but even I have to say this is really pushing it. She has enough dirty laundry that this is very petty. There are enough reasons not to trust her. This just falls on the side of "Meh, so the story the cop told was an exageration. Big deal."
Considering your history of advocating personal responsibility, I find this comment a little surprising. I don't see how *her* telling of the story is the officer's fault (which seems to be the message here). Thanks for reading.
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Old 04-08-2008, 01:51 PM   #17
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Well, I think the assumption here is that the officer was the one that stretched the truth. But we don't actually know that--not that it matters, because the more important to note is that for someone who places such importance on image, Mrs Clinton has surprisingly bad foresight (not a good quality in a president...or in anything else ).


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Old 04-08-2008, 02:03 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JCarter426
Well, I think the assumption here is that the officer was the one that stretched the truth. But we don't actually know that--not that it matters, because the more important to note is that for someone who places such importance on image, Mrs Clinton has surprisingly bad foresight (not a good quality in a president...or in anything else ).
Agreed. Anyone that has every played the telephone game in grade school knows that a story changes with each telling. Clinton was using this story in tandem with her health care pitch, just as she was using the Bosnia story in tandem with her CIC spiel, so it's not as though she was just sitting around the table sharing anecdotes: she was using this to manipulate people. Granted these two stories are different in many ways, but with regards to your observations about foresight, one can't help but think that she was assuming that no one would try to vet her story. Odd thing to assume for someone in her position.
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Old 04-08-2008, 02:06 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JCarter426
Well, I think the assumption here is that the officer was the one that stretched the truth.
Most of the time people telling a story stretch the truth to improve the story. Try taking an accident report from three different witnesses and you will see what I mean. People emphasize what is important to them or they emphasize what they feel is important to the listener. Most of the time there is no malice or illegal intent in their description of the so called facts, they are just emphasizing what they feel is important and felling in the gaps with what they believe happened. I have no problem with the police officers telling Mrs. Clinton the story. I have no problem with her retelling the story, but as a Senator and someone running for the office of President of the United States she knows everything she says is scrutinized and should have not retold the story without checking out the facts.


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Old 04-08-2008, 02:10 PM   #20
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Granted these two stories are different in many ways, but with regards to your observations about foresight, one can't help but think that she was assuming that no one would try to vet her story. Odd thing to assume for someone in her position.
Exactly my point. Bending the truth and manipulating, that is forgivable (she might not even have bent the truth in this case). But believing that one can actually get away with it certainly is not.


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Old 04-08-2008, 04:27 PM   #21
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The Bosnian sniper fire thing I don't cut her any slack on. That was pure BS.

This incident I''m going to give her the benefit of the doubt on. There are a couple reasons for that.

First, if (and it is a big if) a staffer told her they confirmd the story, then it's unrealistic to assume she'd distrust her own staffer. Second, with HIPPA regulations in place, it would be extremely difficult for her staff to get any medical or insurance details. The husband would have had to give the hospital permission to release information about her care and what happened, and that may not have happened right away. Third, I would be very surprised if there wasn't some kind of legal action pending with the death of the mother, and I suspect any lawyers involved would want to be extremely careful about what info got released and how things were worded.


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Old 04-08-2008, 05:12 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
First, if (and it is a big if) a staffer told her they confirmd the story, then it's unrealistic to assume she'd distrust her own staffer. Second, with HIPPA regulations in place, it would be extremely difficult for her staff to get any medical or insurance details. The husband would have had to give the hospital permission to release information about her care and what happened, and that may not have happened right away. Third, I would be very surprised if there wasn't some kind of legal action pending with the death of the mother, and I suspect any lawyers involved would want to be extremely careful about what info got released and how things were worded.
How would the staffer confirm it if all these other points are true? The press seemed to be able to get to the bottom of things eventually, so while I have no doubt it was difficult, it was clearly not impossible. I agree with you that she should be able to trust her staffer, but the "she got it from a staffer" angle is not something I have heard before and sounds like conjecture.

Again, for me it comes down to "why tell the story in the first place?". It really does appear as though she was trying to pull on heart strings so that her health care system would seem as though it were fire from the gods. No other explanation would appear to make sense. Just one in a series of truthiness issues.
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Old 04-08-2008, 06:12 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
How would the staffer confirm it if all these other points are true? The press seemed to be able to get to the bottom of things eventually, so while I have no doubt it was difficult, it was clearly not impossible. I agree with you that she should be able to trust her staffer, but the "she got it from a staffer" angle is not something I have heard before and sounds like conjecture.
It's entirely conjecture--no one knows at this point who knew what and when. I'm just giving some possible explanations as reasons why I'm not ready to jump on the 'this is an outright lie' bandwagon at this point. Sure, she's lied in the past, and this story might be another example of it, but I prefer not to be unfair by leveling that accusation without proof of actual wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Again, for me it comes down to "why tell the story in the first place?". It really does appear as though she was trying to pull on heart strings so that her health care system would seem as though it were fire from the gods. No other explanation would appear to make sense. Just one in a series of truthiness issues.
That's a different question from 'Is she lying about this woman's story or not.' I completely agree she's trying to pull on heartstrings and appeal to women voters in particular, and I suspect it was effective with a lot of people since she retold it for however many weeks. Have you seen her telling the story? I rolled my eyes at the melodrama.

Here's a different thought--would it be different for you all if McCain or Obama were telling that story?


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Old 04-08-2008, 06:35 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
It's entirely conjecture--no one knows at this point who knew what and when. I'm just giving some possible explanations as reasons why I'm not ready to jump on the 'this is an outright lie' bandwagon at this point. Sure, she's lied in the past, and this story might be another example of it, but I prefer not to be unfair by leveling that accusation without proof of actual wrong.
Fair enough, but we do know that it's not entirely a fabrication. The real story got twisted into something it was not, but I'm not saying that Hillary was necessarily the one doing all/most/any of the twisting.

Quote:
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That's a different question from 'Is she lying about this woman's story or not.' I completely agree she's trying to pull on heartstrings and appeal to women voters in particular, and I suspect it was effective with a lot of people since she retold it for however many weeks. Have you seen her telling the story? I rolled my eyes at the melodrama.
Hillary's campaign is extremely dependent upon low-information voters. She knows this. We know this.

The point of my interjection was not to say that I thought she was lying, rather that being truthful (and/or accurate) doesn't matter to her.

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Originally Posted by Jae Onasi
Here's a different thought--would it be different for you all if McCain or Obama were telling that story?
All other things being equal? No it wouldn't be different at all. But all other things are not equal, so I think that if this story were to come from one of their camps, I might be inclined to be more or less critical.

For instance, McCain isn't running on a platform of universal health care and has shown repeatedly that he is willing to change his rhetoric to appear more favorable to whatever group he is appealing to at the time. Had this story been his, I probably wouldn't be as upset.

If it had come from Obama, I would have been a little more shocked. He doesn't share one-off ancedotes, so to do so would have seemed out of character to me. If he had a string of "Bosnia stories" in his closet as well, then I think that would be another thing too.
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Old 04-09-2008, 12:07 AM   #25
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Considering your history of advocating personal responsibility, I find this comment a little surprising. I don't see how *her* telling of the story is the officer's fault (which seems to be the message here). Thanks for reading.
Not really that hard to believe my stance as she didn't claim it was her story. I see it as she was told a story by the officer(a generally reputable source) and she believed the story as told by the officer, hence she repeated it. If you want to fault her for it, it isn't so much a lie, as failure to follow up. At least she didn't claim she had personal experience in it.

Again I have enough REAL reasons to distrust her. This just comes down to her info was not accurate.

The woman in question did die.
Her child was stillborn.
The woman in question did have a $100 barrier to treatments(at one clinic)
The woman did have that barrier because of a lack of insurance(though she had insurance at the time of her death, and she was treated at the second hospital).

The officer stated that he did tell her the story AS SHE RETOLD IT(I wonder if I'm the only one that read that part of the article).

Again, I really dislike HRC. I would never advocate her being president(*shudders*). This is just over the top and reaching to find things to dislike her for.
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Old 04-09-2008, 12:40 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommycat
If you want to fault her for it, it isn't so much a lie, as failure to follow up.
Right, she repeated something that wasn't accurate and didn't take any steps to ensure the accuracy/truthfulness of the story before repeating it. You still seem to be maintaining the argument that this is somehow the officer's fault and making light of her responsibility to know what she was talking about before opening her mouth.
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Old 04-09-2008, 12:56 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Right, she repeated something that wasn't accurate and didn't take any steps to ensure the accuracy/truthfulness of the story before repeating it. You still seem to be maintaining the argument that this is somehow the officer's fault and making light of her responsibility to know what she was talking about before opening her mouth.
Same reason I wouldn't hold you accountable for something you quote from another source(so long as you not that it is from another source). I don't hold people accountable for quoting other people and believing it, I hold the source accountable for not being factual.

I'm not faulting the officer. HE is. He has accepted responsibility for the exagerations. Why can't you let him take the responsibility he is willing to take?
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Old 04-09-2008, 01:34 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Tommycat
Same reason I wouldn't hold you accountable for something you quote from another source(so long as you not that it is from another source). I don't hold people accountable for quoting other people and believing it, I hold the source accountable for not being factual.
So I could just...quote whatever I want and never have to bear any responsibility for the accuracy of what I repeat? Again, this would seem to fly in the face of everything I've ever heard you say about personal responsibility, but then again it may just be that you and I define "personal responsibility" in different ways.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommycat
I'm not faulting the officer. HE is. He has accepted responsibility for the exagerations. Why can't you let him take the responsibility he is willing to take?
Because it's a completely separate, unrelated issue. His telling Hillary the story is one action. Her decision to repeat it in a public forum, without making any kind of effort to vet the story first, is another. Whatever circumstances preceded her choice are completely irrelevant to the argument. No one held a gun to her head and forced her to tell the story. *She* made a choice to repeat what she heard. So his "accepting responsibility" is really a non-issue.
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Old 04-09-2008, 01:41 AM   #29
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This is why I'd vote for Obama over Clinton, if I could vote. She totally blew the story waaaaaaaaaay out of proportion. Can we really trust someone as president when they can't get the facts straight, and lets not start on Bill. Granted, it did come from a police officer, be she should have had the common snse to look it up to some degree.

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Old 04-09-2008, 02:04 AM   #30
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Look, I still don't trust her. I'm not absolving her of all responsibility. This is just being blown WAY THE HECK OUT OF PROPORTION. I'm not going to defend her as a person. I dislike being on this side of it. Why is it that someone like myself that hasn't been able to stand her nor her husband is sitting here defending her? Heck I'm not even a democrat. I'm a Republican, and I'm defending her in this instance.

This is no big deal. Sure the story is an exageration. Sure she should have checked it better. I just don't see this as that bad compared to some of the whoppers she's already told.
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Old 04-09-2008, 02:21 AM   #31
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Quote:
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I just don't see this as that bad compared to some of the whoppers she's already told.
I would tend to agree with you. My intention was never to compare "this to that". I do think that this is part of a pattern of behavior though, which has been my argument all along.
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Old 04-09-2008, 02:44 AM   #32
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I would tend to agree with you. My intention was never to compare "this to that". I do think that this is part of a pattern of behavior though, which has been my argument all along.
Then I guess we're more or less in agreement. Yeah she has a habbit of not verifying her stories, and it would be very scary to have her in power, this just isn't that big of a deal, and is closer to the truth than most of her other silly comments.
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Old 04-09-2008, 02:50 AM   #33
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I think the whole flap just generally speaks to her seemingly indiscriminate sloppiness. It doesn't compare to the many lies she's told over the course of her "political career", but reflects poorly upon her, especially in a situation where others WILL check the veracity and/or accuracy of her public statemements.


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There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

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Old 04-09-2008, 02:58 AM   #34
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Hey, no sense getting mad over this - even if she did lie, at least she lied about something plausible. Focus on her little story about the Bosnian Snipers instead.
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Old 04-09-2008, 03:06 AM   #35
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No need to tell me twice. I've no intention of voting for her regardless. Don't much care for marxist/socialist control freaks.


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

How would you like to own a little bit of my foot in your ass.---Red Foreman
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Old 04-09-2008, 03:07 AM   #36
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Amen. Even if I could vote, I'd rather vote for Nader than Hilary.
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Old 04-09-2008, 03:15 AM   #37
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Amen. Even if I could vote, I'd rather vote for Nader than Hilary.
If those were my only two choices, I'd write in Mickey Mouse
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Old 04-09-2008, 03:19 AM   #38
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Foghorn Leghorn would be more entertaining at least.


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

How would you like to own a little bit of my foot in your ass.---Red Foreman
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Old 04-09-2008, 03:39 AM   #39
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Hillary will never be president.

Why? Because she isn't Bill. She can't just say "I didn't inhale" and make people laugh at the ridiculousness (is that a word?) of such a statement and then forget about it. She just lacks the charisma.

I agree that this is rather mild compared to the whole "snipers in Bosnia" thing, which was a lie. The reason that this is being over-hyped is because she's already been caught telling whoppers like that.


"They should rename the team to the Washington Government Sucks. Put Obama on the helmet. Line the entire walls of the stadium with the actual text of the ACA.
Fix their home team score on the board to the debt clock, they can win every game 17,000,000,000,000 to 24. Losing team gets taxed by the IRS 100%, then droned."
-Toker
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Old 04-09-2008, 03:53 AM   #40
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All the more reason to pray Operation Chaos has it's desired outcome and Hilary miraculously gets the Democrat Nomination.
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