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View Poll Results: Who do you believe to be Kreia's "true" identity?
Arren Kae 32 65.31%
Krynda Draay 5 10.20%
Neither 8 16.33%
Not sure 4 8.16%
Voters: 49. You may not vote on this poll


Thread: Kreia's true identity
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Old 04-16-2008, 06:17 PM   #1
i_shot_the_jedi
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Kreia's true identity

I found it odd when searching through the most recent topic pages that there was no thread such as this (and I apologize if there is and I missed it...). So, here it is: what do you believe is Kreia's true identity?

There has been a great amount of discussion - much of it, I am sure, on these forums - over whether Kreia was indeed the fabled Jedi Master Arren Kae, mentioned briefly in Knights of the Old Republic II, and mother of the Handmaiden. On the little information we have to go on, the possibility is indeed quite likely - though not particularly strong.

Another popular theory is that Kreia is instead the similarly named Krynda Draay from the new comics. As they share numerous similarities, supporters of the theory believe that the story arc will conclude with the revelation that the two women are in fact the same person. However, this possibility is based on circumstantial evidence only, and nothing concrete linking the two has yet been revealed.


Krynda... possibly?

Or... has Kreia just always been Kreia, with only the one alter-ego: that of Darth Traya?

I am eager to hear your views.


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Old 04-16-2008, 06:34 PM   #2
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Kreia's Arren Kae. At least that's what I think. I don't think she's Krynda (because she can't possibly be her), but I wouldn't be surprised if that turns out to be.


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Old 04-16-2008, 06:38 PM   #3
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Could you elaborate on why you don't think it could be Krynda please?


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Old 04-16-2008, 06:46 PM   #4
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Well, for one, Krynda's way too old. Second, Kreia isn't half Miraluka. Those are the major two, though there are some other reasons.


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Old 04-16-2008, 06:57 PM   #5
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Have you ever wondered why she could not see? Sure, she tells you that she didn't need to, but I don't recall her ever telling you how....


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Old 04-16-2008, 07:01 PM   #6
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Kreia is Kreia. I don't give a damn whether or not that was their original intention. If it was, then it's a good thing it was cut.


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Old 04-16-2008, 07:17 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Son of Skywalker15
Have you ever wondered why she could not see? Sure, she tells you that she didn't need to, but I don't recall her ever telling you how....
She specifically says that her eyes have atrophied (i.e. it's not because she's half Miraluka, because she isn't; and I doubt she'd refer to Visas as "the Miraluka" if she were one herself).


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Old 04-16-2008, 08:03 PM   #8
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Arren Kae.

I used to think that people that advocated this had too much time on their hands, but after reading Scorchy's walkthrough, I'm a believer.

EDIT: btw, after finally finishing my final (?) playthrough of KotOR last night, I fired up TSL. I literally cracked up when Kreia comments on how my "stance" gave me away as a Jedi during the first dialog. Reminded me of another promenient character in the game that places a great deal of emphasis on "stance" and just happens to be an Echani.
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Old 04-16-2008, 08:12 PM   #9
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i.e. it's not because she's half Miraluka, because she isn't; and I doubt she'd refer to Visas as "the Miraluka" if she were one herself).
Now that you mention it, I do recall an instance where she states something about her eye wasting away and destroying, although they were unneeded to her.

I don't think she's a Miraluka; more specifically, Krynda Draay. I'm a believer in her being Kae.


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Old 04-16-2008, 09:04 PM   #10
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I think that Avellone intended for Kreia to be Arren Kae. I have thought this since my second or third playthrough.

Krynda Draay appears to be yet another awkward EU retcon intended to be Kreia because some friggin' genius didn't like Avellone's idea and decided to replace it with something more, well, awkward. Complete with a perfectly illogical and yet convenient reason as to why Kreia is blind.

God, how I hate the EU.

Who writes this crap? Monkeys?


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Old 04-16-2008, 09:47 PM   #11
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I think that Avellone intended for Kreia to be Arren Kae. I have thought this since my second or third playthrough.
I got that impression too. However, mine actually stems from the interview on SW Knights a few months back with him. He declined to comment on it, but I think he did feel that connecting that would make a complete circle to the story.


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Old 04-16-2008, 10:00 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Achilles
Arren Kae.

I used to think that people that advocated this had too much time on their hands, but after reading Scorchy's walkthrough, I'm a believer.

EDIT: btw, after finally finishing my final (?) playthrough of KotOR last night, I fired up TSL. I literally cracked up when Kreia comments on how my "stance" gave me away as a Jedi during the first dialog. Reminded me of another promenient character in the game that places a great deal of emphasis on "stance" and just happens to be an Echani.
Yup, same here. It's the little things like that give the theory credibility.

Well, that, and...

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Originally Posted by Son of Skywalker15
I got that impression too. However, mine actually stems from the interview on SW Knights a few months back with him. He declined to comment on it, but I think he did feel that connecting that would make a complete circle to the story.
"Can't comment, but good catch" were his exact words. That pretty much seals the deal for me that the development team at least intended for her to be Kae.


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Old 04-16-2008, 10:16 PM   #13
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I thought that Kavar's reaction at the enclave tipped in that direction as well.


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Old 04-16-2008, 11:51 PM   #14
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I voted Arren Kae.

I have had some discusion on this topic before on the chatbox. It just seems so likely that that is who 'Kreia' really is. It just makes sense. But then again it raises may questions. One thing that I have wondered about was the possible comment that the Exile makes on the Handmaiden's mother.

Something along the lines of the Handmaiden's mother being beautiful? That is interesting to me. Another thing that I wonder about is why 'Kreia' doesn't necessarily like the Handmaiden that much.

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Old 04-17-2008, 12:00 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Rev7
Another thing that I wonder about is why 'Kreia' doesn't necessarily like the Handmaiden that much.
I always thought it was because Kreia blamed her for her exile, refusing to admit that it was because the students she taught were failures. Note that she claims Arren was exiled because of her child. Another reason would be that Brianna reminds Kreia of her past, of her failures, etc. Just a couple of theories for you.


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Old 04-17-2008, 04:43 AM   #16
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Ok, I'm seeing an imbalance in opinion here so I'll lay out a bit more of the Krynda theory.

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Originally Posted by JCarter426
Well, for one, Krynda's way too old. Second, Kreia isn't half Miraluka. Those are the major two, though there are some other reasons... She specifically says that her eyes have atrophied (i.e. it's not because she's half Miraluka, because she isn't; and I doubt she'd refer to Visas as "the Miraluka" if she were one herself).
You raise two very good points, and the major failing points of the theory: no, Kreia does not label herself as a half-Miraluka and according to Chris Avellone, Kreia was born around 4000BBY: about the same year as Lucien Draay, Krynda's son.

Nevertheless, these arguments are not enormously strong and it would be unfair to disqualify this theory on two negative points.

Firstly, Kreia's age is debateable. Avellone himself stated "like Yoda, who knows", so despite his "guess" of 50 years old, Kreia's age can still be labelled a mystery. I've seen guesses of anything between 50 and 80, and thus it would not be much of a stretch for Kreia and Krynda to be the same age, even if they were not the same person.

Secondly, considering the rarity of Miraluka - let alone half-Miraluka - and Kreia's tendency to lie, she could just be protecting her identity. Or, perhaps, she is only telling half truths, and upon her discovery of Force Sight, Krynda allowed her already distinctive eyes to atrophy:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krynda Draay
"If only my father's blood had been stronger! I would gladly have given my eyes—and yours—for you to be able to see what the Miraluka see!"
Not a strong possibility, but one that should be considered. You stated that you "doubt she'd refer to Visas as 'the Miraluka' if she were one herself"; to which I must point out that Krynda has done it herself already (see the above quote). Kreia distances herself from other characters by giving them relevant nicknames; thus, if you will accept that she distances herself from her apparent daughter by giving her the belittling moniker "servant of Atris", you should also accept it as likely that she would distance herself from a member of the other possible half of her species; "the Blind One", "the Miraluka".

Furthermore, both Krynda and Kreia share powers of prognostication, "failed Padawans" of the more violent vein and have links of some kind to Revan. Also, if I may be so bold, I would assume that upon Zayne Carrick's revelation of Krynda's crimes and the crimes of her "Jedi Covenant", that she will be exiled during the Mandalorian Wars as Kreia is known to have been and possibly, as my son pointed out in the wookieepedia article, become "consumed by guilt, [and] question the validity of her unorthodox beliefs".

I consider both theories just as strong as each other; though at the moment the Kae theory has the weight of evidence. I suppose that only with the conclusion of the final Knights of the Old Republic comic story arc will we be able to prove or disprove the latter.


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Old 04-17-2008, 05:33 AM   #17
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Your quote from Krynda Draay doesn't support your argument. She is using 'the Miraluka' to describe just that - the entire race collectively (if she was refering to a single individual as Kreia does, then it would be "what the Miraluka sees" rather than "what the Miraluka see". (If that's unclear, replace "the Miraluka" with Visas and see which version seems to be better) There is a drastic difference in meaning. One is refering to the group as a whole 'the Miraluka' and use of the noun is entirely appropriate as that is the group to which she refers. There is no easy way to refer to the Miraluka collectively otherwise. Kreia, on the other hand, uses "the Miraluka" in place of Visas' name. It is a pejorative term when Kreia uses, it is not in the quote you have provide from Krynda.
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Old 04-17-2008, 05:59 AM   #18
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Well Frank, I may be wrong - I frequently am - and you've highlighted a point that doesn't fit very well, which I thank you for; but in both cases Krynda and Kreia distance themselves from the Miraluka race (never mind the grammar, I apologize but that wasn't the intention of my focus), considering themselves more Human than Miraluka: in the quote Krynda refers to the Miraluka rather distantly and clearly does not count herself as part of the race; Kreia likewise referring to Visas Marr as "the Miraluka" rather than, for example, "the other Miraluka".


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Old 04-17-2008, 09:40 AM   #19
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"Can't comment, but good catch" were his exact words. That pretty much seals the deal for me that the development team at least intended for her to be Kae.
Totally agree. Because the female Exile is canon, you don't get Brianna or entire back story, but the Master's reaction to her show that they knew her. In fact, they never say "Kreia" at all; Vrook/Kavar says, "You! I thought you died in the Mandalorian War." I have to play that scene over again, but the quote proves to me that she's not who she seems to be.

Also, Kae is mentioned in the female game. Mical tells you that she was Revan's Kae was the first, and last, trainer of Revan. Then, if you ask Kreia and have high influence, Kreia tells you she was Revan's first, and last, teacher.

So, while the intent was there, Kreia currently is "Kreia" until something comes and changes it officially.

I don't know why, but I'm finding it hard to remember all the little facts of Kotor II; perhaps I should re-play it soon, huh?


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Old 04-17-2008, 10:34 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Son of Skywalker15
Also, Kae is mentioned in the female game. Mical tells you that she was Revan's Kae was the first, and last, trainer of Revan. Then, if you ask Kreia and have high influence, Kreia tells you she was Revan's first, and last, teacher.
Of course Kreia's Kae but I don't expect any definitive statements for at least another year or so if they do it in the comic at all, and probably not until they get around to K3 as a game.


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Old 04-17-2008, 11:35 AM   #21
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Of course Kreia's Kae but I don't expect any definitive statements for at least another year or so if they do it in the comic at all, and probably not until they get around to K3 as a game
That was actually my next statement Like I said, Kreia will be Kreia until its placed in the EU that she is Kae, using the alias Kreia. Chris isn't going to say it, even if I asked him in the EUC interview.

Many things have to be placed into the EU for Kotor II; we know them, but the SW characters do not. How's that for dramatic irony, huh?


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Old 04-17-2008, 12:08 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Qliveur
I think that Avellone intended for Kreia to be Arren Kae. I have thought this since my second or third playthrough.

Krynda Draay appears to be yet another awkward EU ret-con intended to be Kreia because some friggin' genius didn't like Avellone's idea and decided to replace it with something more, well, awkward. Complete with a perfectly illogical reason as to why Kreia is blind.

God, how I hate the EU.

Who writes this crap? Monkeys?
Yes, retcons are irritating; though with this example, should Kreia be revealed to be Krynda Draay, it could not be considered a retcon as such as we do not know for sure what the official stance was in the first place...

Nevertheless, you raise a good point: perhaps Kae was intended to be Kreia originally, as many posters have stated, but that Krynda has since assumed the role because Kae's backstory was never fully completed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Son of Skywalker15
Also, Kae is mentioned in the female game. Mical tells you that she was Revan's Kae was the first, and last, trainer of Revan. Then, if you ask Kreia and have high influence, Kreia tells you she was Revan's first, and last, teacher.
These are the exact quotes for reference:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mical
"As a Padawan, Revan was trained by Master Kae, before she was exiled. Strange, I do not recall who Revan's master was after that. And it is said that he went to his first - and final - master to learn how to leave the order entirely, as she had."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kreia
"He came to me, yes. Both before and after, before Revan knew himself. And after, in the times when Revan was coming into his own and learning he was more than he had been told. At one time, Revan was my Padawan. In times past, long ago. But Revan, when he had learned all he could, had other masters... that fool Zhar, and other Jedi on other planets. He learned from each. But in the end, he turned back to me. When he realized there was nothing more to be learned from the Jedi - except how one could leave them forever."
I must point out that at no point does Mical explicitly state that Kae is Kreia or that Kae was Revan's first teacher (only that he studied under her as a Padawan); and Kreia herself only states that she was the "first and final" master. This makes it all rather convoluted, and only through deduction can we assume that Mical is talking about the same person - Kreia - throughout. This is therefore only circumstantial evidence, and I feel that you are thus jumping to conclusions when the official word has only been a vague statement of dismissal.


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Old 04-17-2008, 01:00 PM   #23
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Yes it's circumstantial--the circumstance being that they were the only two we know of that trained Revan as a padawan, and that he returned to both of them afterwards.


And making Kreia Krynda is still a retcon, because there are continuity conflicts.


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Old 04-17-2008, 02:11 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by JCarter426
Yes it's circumstantial--the circumstance being that they were the only two we know of that trained Revan as a padawan
The statement "Strange, I do not recall who Revan's master was after that" must indicate that he had at least two masters (which would be impossible in your reasoning of Kae and Kreia therefore being the same person, and there being no others). Therefore, we must come to the alternative conclusion that Revan was also taught as a Padawan (rather than a Knight) by the "other masters" Kreia mentioned, including Dorak and Zhar Lestin. You cannot have it both ways.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JCarter426
...and that he returned to both of them afterwards.
As I have stated above, Mical is extremely vague and it cannot be said for sure whether he means Arren Kae or Kreia as Kreia when he states "And it is said that he went to his first - and final - master to learn how to leave the order entirely, as she had". I believe we should again focus on the line "Strange, I do not recall who Revan's master was after that". Had this line not been included, the master he refers to would quite clearly have been Arren Kae and that would have been that. However, the way he speaks and his further beginning a new line with that great story-opener "it is said..." indicate that he may be, you could say, going off on a tangent. At no point, sir, does he say "Kae was Revan's first master", and thus this is not a strong enough piece of evidence to proove that Kreia is Arren Kae, especially if it is the very closest you can get to linking the two.

Again, I would like to state that I could be wrong and you absolutely right, and this is why I find that the Arren Kae theory still holds a lot of water. Nevertheless, without total confirmation or proper proof, you cannot state it to be as such; especially considering that as of yet there has been no outcome regarding Krynda.

EDIT: Hang on, it appears that my sources may not have been reliable as I had once thought, and I apologize. I'll keep the above comments for the time being until I can get confirmation. This, it appears, is another version of what Mical said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mical
Revan had many Masters. Zhar, Dorak, Master Kae before she left for the wars. Towards the end of her training, she sought out many to learn techniques. It is said that s/he returned to her first Master at the end of his/her training, in order to learn how s/he might best leave the order.
Nevertheless, in this version, I suppose I could allege that Master Kae is not even inferred to be the first master, being the last in the list. I would greatly appreciate verification of the right version before I go further in arguing the wrong quote, heh...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JCarter426
And making Kreia Krynda is still a retcon, because there are continuity conflicts.
Could you enlighten me please?


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Old 04-17-2008, 04:05 PM   #25
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Wow... those are both some very interesting arguments, gents. But something just feels 'right' about Kae and Kreia being one and the same, I can't explain why, but it seems to make sense.

But, as I said, I'm not sure why.
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Old 04-17-2008, 04:38 PM   #26
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Nevertheless, in this version, I suppose I could allege that Master Kae is not even inferred to be the first master, being the last in the list. I would greatly appreciate verification of the right version before I go further in arguing the wrong quote, heh...
Yes, I see the point. However, Mical does mention that Kae taught Revan as a padawan, implying that she was one of his first masters. Kreia also claims to have taught Revan as a padawan, and that he returned to her before going off to the Mandalorian Wars.

But you're right, it's just circumstantial.

Quote:
Could you enlighten me please?
Well, the Miraluka thing, her age, the fact that Krynda never taught Revan (doesn't look that way, anyhow)...lots things.


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Old 04-17-2008, 06:09 PM   #27
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Wow... those are both some very interesting arguments, gents. But something just feels 'right' about Kae and Kreia being one and the same, I can't explain why, but it seems to make sense.

But, as I said, I'm not sure why.
Perhaps because you've played Knights of the Old Republic II but haven't read the comics; so you feel slightly more biased towards the Kae argument having seen all of the Kae evidence, and little of the Krynda Draay evidence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JCarter426
Well, the Miraluka thing, her age, the fact that Krynda never taught Revan (doesn't look that way, anyhow)...lots things.
Similarly, I would assume that you have not seen everything either. Let's confront these apparent issues:
  • Age: You may have noticed that Krynda Draay (see here) appears younger than Kreia does, with far less creases and wrinkles (I doubt it's to do with wrinkle cream). You may also have noticed the image at the top of the page is a combination of a Kreia picture and the Krynda Draay picture in the Wookieepedia article. Now, I'm sure more wrinkles had to be put onto that Krynda Draay face than taken off. With this and Kreia's unknown age in mind, it doesn't require a retcon to make the pieces fit.
  • Miraluka: Neither Krynda nor Kreia had Force Sight to begin with; this much is plain. Both women, however, highly value the power and have an intense wish to use it. Let us suppose that upon acquisition of the power, Krynda used it to its full extent, like her Miraluka father, and allowed the Human eyes she had once used to atrophy and fade from a bright blue to a pale, milky white. This is no retcon or any major leap of faith - it is perfectly plausible, and fits with all previously established lore.
  • Revan: I agree with you; as of yet there has been no direct evidence that Krynda taught Revan. However, according to Alec Squinquargesimus, also known as Malak: "Our master [Revan] is an acquaintance of your Master Lucien". How this came to be, I can only guess, though it certainly links Revan to Krynda through her son.


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Old 04-17-2008, 06:19 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by i_shot_the_jedi
Perhaps because you've played Knights of the Old Republic II but haven't read the comics; so you feel slightly more biased towards the Kae argument having seen all of the Kae evidence, and little of the Krynda Draay evidence.
Okay, fair enough. But help me out with this part:

Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II - The Sith Lords was released in December 2004
The Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic comic book series launched in January 2006

How did the game developer know to include a comic book character that didn't even exist for more than another year (relative development times nonwithstanding)? Pardon my saying so, but I don't see how this is any thing other than a show-stopper for that the Krynda Draay hypothesis.
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Old 04-17-2008, 06:22 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by i_shot_the_jedi
Age: You may have noticed that Krynda Draay (see here) appears younger than Kreia does, with far less creases and wrinkles (I doubt it's to do with wrinkle cream). You may also have noticed the image at the top of the page is a combination of a Kreia picture and the Krynda Draay picture in the Wookieepedia article. Now, I'm sure more wrinkles had to be put onto that Krynda Draay face than taken off. With this and Kreia's unknown age in mind, it doesn't require a retcon to make the pieces fit.
Yes, I understand that. However, Krynda was married with a son during the Great Sith War, which would put her at around 50-65 during the comics, and around 60-75 at the time of KOTOR 2. According to statements made by Mr Avellone, Kreia is about 50 during K2. Now, his statements aren't 100% canon, no. But still, when one work goes against the intent of another (in this case, the making a character 10-25 years older than originally intended), that's a retcon.

Quote:
Miraluka: Neither Krynda nor Kreia had Force Sight to begin with; this much is plain. Both women, however, highly value the power and have an intense wish to use it. Let us suppose that upon acquisition of the power, Krynda used it to its full extent, like her Miraluka father, and allowed the Human eyes she had once used to atrophy and fade from a bright blue to a pale, milky white. This is no retcon or any major leap of faith - it is perfectly plausible, and fits with all previously established lore.
Krynda didn't originally have Force sight? Didn't know that; I missed one volume (waiting for the TPB...). Still, Kreia's remarks about Visas (calling her "the Miraluka") seem odd if she herself is one (or half of one). So again, Krynda being Kreia doesn't go against canon, but it goes against the developers' intent--another retcon.

Quote:
Revan: I agree with you; as of yet there has been no direct evidence that Krynda taught Revan. However, according to Alec Squinquargesimus, also known as Malak: "Our master [Revan] is an acquaintance of your Master Lucien". How this came to be, I can only guess, though it certainly links Revan to Krynda through her son.
Yes, there certainly is some connection between the two. Still, as far as we know Krynda never taught Revan as a padawan. It is explicitly stated in K2 that Kreia did. So this is actually the biggest area that would have to be retconned.


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Old 04-17-2008, 07:26 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Achilles
How did the game developer know to include a comic book character that didn't even exist for more than another year (relative development times nonwithstanding)? Pardon my saying so, but I don't see how this is any thing other than a show-stopper for that the Krynda Draay hypothesis.
Achilles my friend, I do not think you have noticed the obvious: Krynda Draay has quite possibly been fabricated to fit around the Kreia story; as Alec was fabricated to become the young Malak. I cannot substantiate my claim, but I can theorise that it is quite possibly true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JCarter426
Yes, I understand that. However, Krynda was married with a son during the Great Sith War, which would put her at around 50-65 during the comics, and around 60-75 at the time of KOTOR 2. According to statements made by Mr Avellone, Kreia is about 50 during K2. Now, his statements aren't 100% canon, no. But still, when one work goes against the intent of another (in this case, the making a character 10-25 years older than originally intended), that's a retcon.
Not at all; especially when he contradicts himself with the phrase "like Yoda, who knows?" With this statement, he opened up a whole new can of worms. 50 is is "guess", not his assertion, and perfectly flexible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JCarter426
Krynda didn't originally have Force sight? Didn't know that; I missed one volume (waiting for the TPB...). Still, Kreia's remarks about Visas (calling her "the Miraluka") seem odd if she herself is one (or half of one). So again, Krynda being Kreia doesn't go against canon, but it goes against the developers' intent--another retcon.
As I mentioned before, Krynda once stated:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krynda Draay
"If only my father's blood had been stronger! I would gladly have given my eyes—and yours—for you to be able to see what the Miraluka see!"
Edit: I am forever let down by my atrocious lack of observation. I apologize. Nevertheless, Jolly Boots makes some good points below.

Again, I must suggest most strongly that the moniker "the Miraluka" (as well as "the blinded one" or "the seer") is no different to those she uses for the other party members: Atton as "the fool", Mical as the "tiny Jedi", Brianna as the "servant of Atris", Mira as "the huntress", T3-M4, HK-47, and G0-T0 all as "machines", Hanharr as "the beast", and Bao-Dur as "the alien". Also, did Krynda, in my quote, ever say "see what my people see"? "The Miraluka" is not unusual, and there is no evidence that any of this is against the developers' intent: Kreia is an extraordinarily deep character who enjoys alienating others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krynda Draay
Yes, there certainly is some connection between the two. Still, as far as we know Krynda never taught Revan as a padawan. It is explicitly stated in K2 that Kreia did. So this is actually the biggest area that would have to be retconned.
Your argument is illogical: you premise that if X is not true at present, then it never will be. At some point, if we recieve the information that of Krynda's many apprentices, Revan was one of them, this does not change previously established information about Krynda or Kreia, therefore it is not a retcon: it is just filling in the gaps in history. You cannot retcon "intentions".


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Old 04-17-2008, 07:57 PM   #31
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She did not have Force Sight, yet she would have given her eyes to have it.
Er...she did have Force sight. She's saying there that Lucien doesn't, and that she would have given her eyes in order to give him the gift of Force sight. But she still does have it through her Miraluka blood, which is not how Kreia got it.


Quote:
Your argument is illogical: you premise that if X is not true at present, then it never will be. I put it to you that this does not change previously established information, therefore it is not a retcon: it is just filling in the gaps in history.
I'm not saying that at all. What I said was that making Krynda Kreia would cause continuity errors, and require a retcon in order to fix those errors, one reason being that as far as we know, Krynda has not taught Revan, while Kreia has. Sure, you could argue away Kreia's age and her Force sight, but that doesn't change the fact that she taught Revan as a padawan, while Krynda did not. Thus, a retcon is in order if Krynda were to become Kreia, to explain this error.

Also, I'm not Krynda.


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Old 04-17-2008, 08:36 PM   #32
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God, how I hate the EU.

Who writes this crap? Monkeys?
QFT

I'm not going to put forward anything those in favour of Kae being Kreia have, but suffice to say I think the two people are one and the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by i_shot_the_jedi
Achilles my friend, I do not think you have noticed the obvious: Krynda Draay has quite possibly been fabricated to fit around the Kreia story; as Alec was fabricated to become the young Malak. I cannot substantiate my claim, but I can theorise that it is quite possibly true.
THis seems to me to be a big reason, as to whu EU writers should be ignored... especially when Cannon states Revan and Malak DIDN'T change their names after become Jedi.



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Old 04-17-2008, 10:44 PM   #33
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Er...she did have Force sight. She's saying there that Lucien doesn't, and that she would have given her eyes in order to give him the gift of Force sight. But she still does have it through her Miraluka blood, which is not how Kreia got it.
Actually, Kreia never actually states that she had to learn the ability. The closest thing she says is that she refuses to rely on actual sight, and obviously she has the ability to see both, a trait that Krynda says she has herself.

Quote:
But it was my destiny to have both sight and second sight.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonathan7
THis seems to me to be a big reason, as to whu EU writers should be ignored... especially when Cannon states Revan and Malak DIDN'T change their names after become Jedi.
Actually, no specific source states that they didn't change their name. That was just what it appeared to be to the fans.

To throw more fuel onto the fire, Kreia has some very interesting lines about "mating" Miralukas.

Quote:
And do not mate with her. Whatever you may feel, whatever... urges consume you, do not let them control you. Such a union would breed... difficulties.
Kreia says it as if she knows well (okay, like she does everything else but still) Lucien was described as being a "difficult" birth in which prevented Krynda from serving in the Sith War.

Furthermore, to be perfectly fair, Kreia doesn't even state that she's completely human either. So that point is thrown out. Her age, already argued that Avellone never gave a specific age and was vague to the point of it being on purpose. As for Revan, well, no one EVER names Kreia. The only time Kreia is named is by the party members, Sion and a piece of cut dialog from Lonna Vash. Mical can't recall Kreia and so on...Lucien and Revan were also, as stated before, friends (or at least knew each other pretty well )

Yes. It's obvious Krynda was invented by John Jackson Miller and not Avellone. But intentions (cut content), it's not canon unless made otherwise by another source. Avellone may have intended for Kreia to be Arren Kae but that fact didn't make it in so it's not canon and thus anyone who is playing around with the histories of these characters can basically ignore it. It's not a very nice thing to do, for writers to fiddle around with another's character and ignore intentions but I can say that I don't like Arren = Kreia either so each to his own. If Krynda does becoming Kreia, it's not a recon. To me, it's actually pretty neat, especially if Sion ends up being Lucien Draay, considering his connection to a Sion lookalike (Haazen). As well as Luciens jealousy of the Miraluka/Covenant members hogging the attention from his mother, a fact which plays in KOTOR between Sion and the Exile. Should also note that Lucien has a bit of a problem with the Revanchist in Daze of Hate, calling him a "so-called Master" who doesn't speak for the Order. Lucien may merely have a problem with Revan going off against the Order but it can be argued that there is a bit of resentment there - possibly since he is considered his mothers greatest student?
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Old 04-17-2008, 10:54 PM   #34
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Arren Kae frankly fits the mold much better. It's pretty subtle, though.

1: Arren Kae and Kreia are both known to have been Revan's masters. Both were Jedi, but left the Order.

2: Atton suggests that Kreia was quite attractive in the past but hard living wore her down. Arren Kae is often described as being beautiful.

3: Arren Kae is known to be the mother of the Handmaiden, and Handmaiden states that she honors the face of her mother, the difference being a pair of small braids. Kreia also has braids. Small, but possibly significant.

4: The Jedi Masters, when Kreia shows herself, say that they thought she died during the Mandalorian Wars. This was also believed to have been the fate of Arren Kae.

Subtle cluing, but given that it's in TSL rather than in some Comic, I'm more inclined to believe it.
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Old 04-17-2008, 11:28 PM   #35
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Yeah, I remember that comment from Atton after leaving Peragus. He apparently knew her true identity.

He could have known from his service in the war, or as a Sith Assassin, or both, but he definitely knew who she was.

Why couldn't they have just gone with Avellone's original idea? Is it some sort of sick punishment for Obsidian's failure to properly finish the game in 13 months?


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Old 04-18-2008, 12:00 AM   #36
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Why couldn't they have just gone with Avellone's original idea? Is it some sort of sick punishment for Obsidian's failure to properly finish the game in 13 months?
There are two reasons I can imagine. One is that we don't know if it actually was Avellone's original idea. It may have happened accidentally and he rolled with it, toying with the fans. And two, maybe JJM (and/or Lucas) doesn't like the idea (and neither do I). That's the way a universe written by several writers works.

But yeah. It kinda is punishment since if they were able to finish it then maybe it would have worked it's way in and thus JJM can't do what he's playing now in the same way. He'd have to change the names around and reveal Arren Kae sooner then later. That or create a new character from scratch, which may be the case and thus this all just pointless speculation on our part.

I quote the editor at Lucas Licensing:

"There's no absolute confirmation or denial at this point. Remember that anything authors speculate about, or anyone else for that matter, is not canon until it is in print. Anything can, and often does, change as stories develop."
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Old 04-18-2008, 12:08 AM   #37
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I always thought it was because Kreia blamed her for her exile, refusing to admit that it was because the students she taught were failures. Note that she claims Arren was exiled because of her child. Another reason would be that Brianna reminds Kreia of her past, of her failures, etc. Just a couple of theories for you.
Something like that came into my mind. Just wanted some more clarifacation, and someone else's opinion, so with that said, Thanks JCarter!

One question that I has recently come up with me is that at the end of the game Kreia makes a peculiar comment (or at least in my opinion). It goes along the lines of the Exile being the greatest pupil (student) that she has ever trained. However, wasn't Revan Kreia's apprentice?

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Old 04-18-2008, 12:19 AM   #38
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I think that in Kreia's eyes, the Exile is greater than Revan for his/her ability to survive without the Force. I don't think that Revan could do that.
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One is that we don't know if it actually was Avellone's original idea. It may have happened accidentally and he rolled with it, toying with the fans.
I find this unlikely in the face of all of the hints that the player is given throughout KotOR2.


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Fix their home team score on the board to the debt clock, they can win every game 17,000,000,000,000 to 24. Losing team gets taxed by the IRS 100%, then droned."
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Old 04-18-2008, 12:34 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by i_shot_the_jedi
Achilles my friend, I do not think you have noticed the obvious: Krynda Draay has quite possibly been fabricated to fit around the Kreia story; as Alec was fabricated to become the young Malak. I cannot substantiate my claim, but I can theorise that it is quite possibly true.
How is it "obvious" if you yourself cannot substantiate it? Clearly it was Avellone's vision at work here. If you want to show that the comic came along after the fact and that it should be given more consideration than the existing work, then that is your claim to prove, not mine or anyone else's.
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Old 04-18-2008, 12:34 AM   #40
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Something like that came into my mind. Just wanted some more clarifacation, and someone else's opinion, so with that said, Thanks JCarter!
No problem.

Quote:
One question that I has recently come up with me is that at the end of the game Kreia makes a peculiar comment (or at least in my opinion). It goes along the lines of the Exile being the greatest pupil (student) that she has ever trained. However, wasn't Revan Kreia's apprentice?
Indeed. Kreia actually thought the Exile was better (which must be a definite truth, if we follow that unwritten rule that the sequel's protagonist must be bigger and badder ). Kreia also calls Revan a failure if the Exile falls to the dark side and kills the four masters. What was the exact quote...? Ah, here it is:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kreia
All I have ever trained have been failures to them, students who went to fight the Mandalorians, who fell to the dark side, who abandoned their training.
This I find most fascinating.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qliveur
Yeah, I remember that comment from Atton after leaving Peragus. He apparently knew her true identity.

He could have known from his service in the war, or as a Sith Assassin, or both, but he definitely knew who she was.
Never thought of that...I suppose it's possible. I just thought Atton was desperate.


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