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View Poll Results: Who do you believe to be Kreia's "true" identity?
Arren Kae 32 65.31%
Krynda Draay 5 10.20%
Neither 8 16.33%
Not sure 4 8.16%
Voters: 49. You may not vote on this poll


Thread: Kreia's true identity
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Old 04-18-2008, 04:16 AM   #41
i_shot_the_jedi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
How did the game developer know to include a comic book character that didn't even exist for more than another year (relative development times nonwithstanding)? Pardon my saying so, but I don't see how this is any thing other than a show-stopper for that the Krynda Draay hypothesis.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
How is it "obvious" if you yourself cannot substantiate it? Clearly it was Avellone's vision at work here. If you want to show that the comic came along after the fact and that it should be given more consideration than the existing work, then that is your claim to prove, not mine or anyone else's.
What you have been trying to infer - and please forgive me if I am wrong, but this is how I am interpreting it - is that the Krynda Draay theory must have been the plan all along, or it could not possibly be true. I contend that this is not the only logical conclusion: is it not possible to think that the game developers created a character with very little backstory, and the comic book writers are just filling in the enormous gap?

In my belief both theories should be given equal consideration. The Knights of the Old Republic comics are presently actively unfolding a storyline prequel to the games that may reveal many things that we did not yet know about characters in the games (I can't remember John Jackson Miller's exact quote, but I'll try to find it); thus it is difficult to argue that I am certainly wrong until Jack Johnson Miller has wrapped up all loose ends in the last comic of the series. However, the Arren Kae argument, for all its strengths, is entirely static. There have been no further advances to the Arren Kae storyline in these last four years. My argument is that we look to what is happening at this present time, as well as what has happened in the past, and only come to a final conclusion when either theory has been substantiated.

Sir, I am simply stating that my theory is a tenable possibility; not a hard fact, though I can and have presented strong evidence for why it has every right to be on this page as the previous theory.

To turn it around, how can you substantiate that there was ever "Avellone's vision at work here"? You cannot, and you cannot substantiate your theory any more than I can mine. Please note, my friend, that I am not at any point suggesting that the Arren Kae theory is wrong, only that it could be wrong and that there also may be other possibilities.


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Old 04-18-2008, 04:24 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by i_shot_the_jedi
I contend that this is not the only logical conclusion: is it not possible to think that the game developers created a character with very little backstory, and the comic book writers are just filling in the enormous gap?
If that was the case, how come she (Dray) was never mentioned in the game? At least Kae was mentioned.

I'm sorry, but now it seems that you're making suppositions to fit your own theory. I'm not bashing you, but i'm finding it hard to understand.
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Old 04-18-2008, 04:57 AM   #43
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I sincerely apologize if I am lacking in clarity. I'll put it this way: We start with Revan. The comic book writers, several years later, fill in his background as "The Revanchist" and tell us that this title is what the name "Revan" is derived from. In a similar way, we are told that "Malak" is the assumed name of Alek Squinquargesimus.

My argument is that there is a fairly good likelihood that the same will happen for the character of Kreia, and that only because Kreia was designed with very little backstory have the comic writers created one which they intend to mold round her existing story. You are entirely correct: Krynda Draay was never mentioned in game, but neither was Kreia's true identity; which has as of yet only been surmised to be Arren Kae, but not proven. This is exactly why Kreia could very possibly be Krynda Draay without any continuity problems.


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Old 04-18-2008, 06:44 AM   #44
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I believe that Kae was the original plan for Kriea's identity (it really leans that way in the dialouge's subtle undercurrents) but that it wasn't cemented really, so there is an excellent chance that Krynda will turn out to be Kreia (I wouldn't be shocked anyway, same sort of manipulative nature hinted at).

Has anyone noticed the sounds Krynda and Traya combine to form Kreia? Maybe a sort of combination between the two major elements of her life kind-of thing? Seems Kreia-ish.

But, I agree that it isn't really confirmed 'til we see it laid out for us (probably in print). Oh, and just because the comic is EU, doesn't make it horrible-quality. The games are EU too, and no one on this board can accuse them of being terrible... not counting the cuts.
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Old 04-18-2008, 09:05 AM   #45
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Of course, if Avellone planned that Kreia would be someone aforementioned, that would be Kae and not Krynda, since the last one was just established on the comics.


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Old 04-18-2008, 12:44 PM   #46
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To be frank, I don't think Avellone really has a great degree of influence on further developing the story as his contract with LucasArts was terminated when Obsidian released the game (probably the reason why he was not allowed to disclose any more than "good catch" when it came to the Arren/Kreia theory).

I suppose it's all down to current writers now: if LucasArts decide they want to make the Kae/Kreia theory official in a future publication, then they will, but I doubt they'll consult Avellone first.


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Old 04-18-2008, 01:11 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by i_shot_the_jedi
To be frank, I don't think Avellone really has a great degree of influence on further developing the story as his contract with LucasArts was terminated when Obsidian released the game (probably the reason why he was not allowed to disclose any more than "good catch" when it came to the Arren/Kreia theory).
I completely agree. But as to why would people over at LA and Darkhorse want to chose/create someone else to be Kreia instead of anything Avellone might had especially created is unknown to me. I mean, why bother?


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Old 04-18-2008, 01:39 PM   #48
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To be honest, 99.9% of the games era EU is related to K1 (Which makes sense, as a lot is pre Mando wars) but Krynda Draay fought in the sith war and then seemed to put her time in to the Covenant (all Seers), and up to now, there seems to be no link between the covenant and the Revanchist, apart from an acknowledgment between Lucian and the Revanchist at the Coruscant Temple. Apart from Source books re-telling the Game Story, she only appears in TSL, so Your guess is as good as mine... I personally dont wish to see her in the comics (IMO)


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Old 04-18-2008, 02:12 PM   #49
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Neither do I, as it would probably undermine the quality of one of the greatest characters in video game history, as well as Star Wars history in general.

That's why I'm so sensitive about this. Kreia's character is awesome as-is, and they need to leave her alone.


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Old 04-18-2008, 02:18 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by i_shot_the_jedi
What you have been trying to infer - and please forgive me if I am wrong, but this is how I am interpreting it - is that the Krynda Draay theory must have been the plan all along, or it could not possibly be true.
Yep. In order for Chris Avellone and Obsidian Entertainment to create a game character that is supposed to be Krynda Draay, they had to have known about her in the first place. Considering the juxtaposition of the comic in relation to the game, I submit that this is rather unlikely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by i_shot_the_jedi
I contend that this is not the only logical conclusion: is it not possible to think that the game developers created a character with very little backstory, and the comic book writers are just filling in the enormous gap?
I contend that there isn't a lack of backstory at all. Obsidian gave us all the pieces and trusted the player to be able to put them together. The comic book writers might be trying to exploit what they percieve to be "an enormous gap" to bastardize the original artist's work and then congratulate themselves on how clever they are, but that wouldn't impress me very much.

*jumps head to next post to continue point*

Quote:
Originally Posted by i_shot_the_jedi
I sincerely apologize if I am lacking in clarity. I'll put it this way: We start with Revan. The comic book writers, several years later, fill in his background as "The Revanchist" and tell us that this title is what the name "Revan" is derived from. In a similar way, we are told that "Malak" is the assumed name of Alek Squinquargesimus.
Except that Revan's story had to be open in the game because the player was ultimately responsible for Revan's path in the game. In other words, Revan's story can be a blank slate because there was no fixed path for him in the game. This is not the case for Kreia.

*jumps back to first post*

Quote:
Originally Posted by i_shot_the_jedi
In my belief both theories should be given equal consideration.
Only so far that is reasonable to do so. Because two (or more) ideas exist does not mean that they should be considered equal, especially if one makes more sense than the other.

Quote:
Originally Posted by i_shot_the_jedi
The Knights of the Old Republic comics are presently actively unfolding a storyline prequel to the games that may reveal many things that we did not yet know about characters in the games (I can't remember John Jackson Miller's exact quote, but I'll try to find it); thus it is difficult to argue that I am certainly wrong until Jack Johnson Miller has wrapped up all loose ends in the last comic of the series.
Unless Jack Johnson Miller collaborated with Chris Avellone to create Kreia's character when Obsidian was developing the game, I don't see how his input matters in the slightest. If he wants to bastardize someone else's work and LucasArts wants to sign off on it, then that is what it is. However what it is not is the original artist's work. You seem to be arguing that it should be considered as such.

Quote:
Originally Posted by i_shot_the_jedi
However, the Arren Kae argument, for all its strengths, is entirely static. There have been no further advances to the Arren Kae storyline in these last four years.
Indeed because the scope of the character is limited to the game. If someone else is now ripping off that character to sell some comic books, then there's very little I can do about that, but that doesn't mean that Chris Avellone didn't write the game with Kreia and Master Kae being the same person.

Quote:
Originally Posted by i_shot_the_jedi
My argument is that we look to what is happening at this present time, as well as what has happened in the past, and only come to a final conclusion when either theory has been substantiated.
Nope. As you pointed out above, the game is static. The story is over for now. The body is cold and the clues have all been gathered. Chris Avellone's story is complete (unless KotOR3 happens *fingers crossed*).

Quote:
Originally Posted by i_shot_the_jedi
Sir, I am simply stating that my theory is a tenable possibility; not a hard fact, though I can and have presented strong evidence for why it has every right to be on this page as the previous theory.
I appreciate that this is your position, however I still disagree for the reasons stated above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by i_shot_the_jedi
To turn it around, how can you substantiate that there was ever "Avellone's vision at work here"? You cannot, and you cannot substantiate your theory any more than I can mine.
Huh? He wrote the story didn't he?

Quote:
Originally Posted by i_shot_the_jedi
Please note, my friend, that I am not at any point suggesting that the Arren Kae theory is wrong, only that it could be wrong and that there also may be other possibilities.
Yes, I concede that it is entirely possible that Chris Avellone did not write The Sith Lords with Kreia as Master Kae. The "circumstantial" evidence does tend to support that he did, however you are correct in that there is no smoking gun (I guess Avellone anticipated an audience that didn't need to have things spoon fed to them). However that does not mean that alternate theories automatically "win" or deserve to have equal consideration.

*back to your second post which I started to respond to earlier*

Quote:
Originally Posted by i_shot_the_jedi
My argument is that there is a fairly good likelihood that the same will happen for the character of Kreia, and that only because Kreia was designed with very little backstory have the comic writers created one which they intend to mold round her existing story.
That's what the comic book writers are doing. Completely separate matter from what the original author did or did not intend for the character.

Quote:
Originally Posted by i_shot_the_jedi
You are entirely correct: Krynda Draay was never mentioned in game, but neither was Kreia's true identity; which has as of yet only been surmised to be Arren Kae, but not proven. This is exactly why Kreia could very possibly be Krynda Draay without any continuity problems.
Except that Krynda Draay was never mentioned in the game, that Kreia was written as a human in the game, etc, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by i_shot_the_jedi
To be frank, I don't think Avellone really has a great degree of influence on further developing the story as his contract with LucasArts was terminated when Obsidian released the game (probably the reason why he was not allowed to disclose any more than "good catch" when it came to the Arren/Kreia theory).

I suppose it's all down to current writers now: if LucasArts decide they want to make the Kae/Kreia theory official in a future publication, then they will, but I doubt they'll consult Avellone first.
The problem that we're having sir, is that you seem more concerned about LucasArts canon than the Knights of the Old Republic story. I very much see where you are coming from, however that does not mean that I agree with it. The artistic integrity of Avellone's story (subject to debate, I know) trumps Luca$' desire to sell more comic books. Sorry.
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Old 04-18-2008, 05:21 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Unless Jack Johnson Miller collaborated with Chris Avellone to create Kreia's character when Obsidian was developing the game, I don't see how his input matters in the slightest. If he wants to bastardize someone else's work and LucasArts wants to sign off on it, then that is what it is. However what it is not is the original artist's work. You seem to be arguing that it should be considered as such.
Well, "bastardizing", as you say, would only be classified as such if Avellone intended Kreia to be Kae to start with. A fact we can probably die without knowing.


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Old 04-18-2008, 06:46 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ctrl_Alt_Del
Well, "bastardizing", as you say, would only be classified as such if Avellone intended Kreia to be Kae to start with. A fact we can probably die without knowing.
Perhaps "hijack" would have been a better word choice then.
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Old 04-18-2008, 09:45 PM   #53
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Whenever I hear about Kae, I always see a young hippie Jedi.

That is NOT how I see Kreia. And even if Kreia=Kae, Kreia's personality is so twisted from that of Kae that such a revelation really wouldn't serve the story.

Kreia is an old manlipuative hag, with lots of fans, and even more enemies. Let leave it that way.


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Old 04-19-2008, 06:24 AM   #54
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If you read carefuly http://fromearth.net/LetsPlay/KOTOR%...058/index.html than it's obviously who Kreia once was
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Old 04-19-2008, 07:24 AM   #55
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I contend that there isn't a lack of backstory at all. Obsidian gave us all the pieces and trusted the player to be able to put them together. The comic book writers might be trying to exploit what they percieve to be "an enormous gap" to bastardize the original artist's work and then congratulate themselves on how clever they are, but that wouldn't impress me very much.
A fascinating theory, and I'm glad you brought it to my attention.

However, I should suggest that Obsidian never really gave us all the pieces, at least not all at once. The information given to us by the Handmaiden is unavailable to a female Exile, so a player can play through the entire game without ever picking up the idea that Kreia may be Master Kae. This would suggest that if it ever existed, the Kreia/Kae storyline has mostly become cut content.

It may have been that Avellone intended the Handmaiden to play a larger part in both male and female Exile storylines - and he may have had a Revanesque revalation cutscene planned too - but due to time constraints, we're only left with vague clues (44 vaguely linking pictures on Scorchy's walkthrough does not have much oomph) to an incomplete (and possibly non-existant) picture.

Sir, furthermore you have been basing your argument on the premise that a couple of coincidences prove that Chris Avellone most certainly always intended Arren Kae to be Kreia. However, I cannot accept this without hearing it from Avellone himself, so I must advocate all possible theories until we hear word from LucasArts.

Nevertheless, thank you for giving me such an excellent debate and a theory I will remember when I next hear word on the subject. I, as you, hope they at least tell us some time soon, either way.


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Last edited by i_shot_the_jedi; 04-19-2008 at 07:46 AM.
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Old 04-19-2008, 09:02 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by i_shot_the_jedi
A fascinating theory, and I'm glad you brought it to my attention.
Glad I could help.

Quote:
Originally Posted by i_shot_the_jedi
However, I should suggest that Obsidian never really gave us all the pieces, at least not all at once.
Right (re: all at once), hence my comment about Obsidian trusting their audience not to need to have everything spoon fed to them. Scorchy got it. A few others here seem to have got it too. Some others haven't but I think that's to be expected.

Quote:
Originally Posted by i_shot_the_jedi
The information given to us by the Handmaiden is unavailable to a female Exile, so a player can play through the entire game without ever picking up the idea that Kreia may be Master Kae.
Indeed, someone that only played as a female Exile would not get part of the story, just as someone who only played male, light side, dark side, etc. I'm not sure how that makes your case though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by i_shot_the_jedi
This would suggest that if it ever existed, the Kreia/Kae storyline has mostly become cut content.
Which would imply that the pieces we do have are somehow insufficient. And indeed for someone wishing to have a smoking gun or spoon-fed plot points that very well seem like reality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by i_shot_the_jedi
It may have been that Avellone intended the Handmaiden to play a larger part in both male and female Exile storylines - and he may have had a Revanesque revalation cutscene planned too - but due to time constraints, we're only left with vague clues (44 vaguely linking pictures on Scorchy's walkthrough does not have much oomph) to an incomplete (and possibly non-existant) picture.
Indeed, this is one possibility. Another is that the writer, in an effort to increase replay value (one of the stated objectives of the developer, IIRC), made it so that the player would need to play the game more than once from different angles to get all the various pieces necessary to put the entire story together.

Really sir, since the Kreia/Kae thing is more "nuance" than "major plot point" does it really need a 5 minute exposition cut scene? Since Kae being Handmaiden's mother would only have significance if Handmaiden was around, wouldn't it make sense to emphasize that during the male storyline? It's becoming more and more obvious that you simply like this other theory better (even though it's significantly more convoluted) and as that's going to be that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by i_shot_the_jedi
Sir, furthermore you have been basing your argument on the premise that a couple of coincidences prove that Chris Avellone most certainly always intended Arren Kae to be Kreia. However, I cannot accept this without hearing it from Avellone himself, so I must advocate all possible theories until we hear word from LucasArts.
*something about the earth being flat*
Okay. Thanks for clarifying your position.

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Originally Posted by i_shot_the_jedi
Nevertheless, thank you for giving me such an excellent debate and a theory I will remember when I next hear word on the subject. I, as you, hope they at least tell us some time soon, either way.
I won't be losing any sleep over it. Hopefully you won't either. Take care.
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Old 04-19-2008, 10:18 AM   #57
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The whole Kreia as the same person as Kae never sat well with me.

It just raises more questions (or statements) to motive if that was going to be the case!

-Why wasnít that revealed in the game itself? Kreia died, end of story. What would be the point of not revealing it after the gameís events because now it becomes a side issue which really weakens the plot behind it if it were true.

-Why hasnít it been revealed after 3 Ĺ years since the game has been released? What are they waiting for? Donít say KOTOR III because that would be something that would distract the story of the next chapter of the game series. The only way that would work out well is if both Kreia and Brianna were main characters in that game. That wouldnít be the case.
spoiler:
Could you imagine if they were to leave hints about the Revan revelation, but never actually revealed in K1, but revealed in TSL? That would be bad storytelling, especially since Revan was just talked about, but was never around in the game.


-The female Exile is now considered the canon way of playing the game. That means the Handmaidenís role is has been limited to just stealing the Ebon Hawk, telling your party to lay down their weapons, asking Atris about caring for the Exile once, and other optional conversations you could have with her at the Polar Region. Once you leave, her small role in the game is over.

-The hints used to support the theory theyíre the same person are easily debunked making it just pure speculation without conclusive facts.

-We were told that no twists were going to be in TSL. Thereís a hint left in one of the dialogue files about that:
http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/301/notwistshkv7.jpg

-Kreia makes it clear that she was cast out because of her teachings and beliefs. It was also stated that Kae was exiled for having a child. In TSL, it was clear that Kreia is against love, but wants to prove that her teachings are right. If love was something she thought was right, she would be in the same boat as Jolee Bindo in how she felt about it. If she did believe in love, she wouldnít have changed her mind about it because that would prove in her mind that one of the Jedi teachings was correct and I donít think she would dare do that. If there were any issues she agreed with the Jedi on; it would be teachings she already believed in before her exile. She would not change her mind and say the Jedi were right about something after her bitter exile. Kreia was on a mission to prove that she was right and the Jedi were wrong.

-Kreia serving under Revan during the Mandalorian Wars is something I canít picture her doing. She likes to be the master; the one in charge; that way she is in control. Sheís also someone who prefers to resolve conflicts through pacifism and manipulation, even to a point to play tricks on peopleís minds, not violence. I believe it was stated that the Jedi thought Kreia ďdiedĒ during the Mandalorian Wars; never stating she was killed. Not everybody who died during the Mandalorian Wars was a part of it.

-Kreia hates Atris with a passion. Why would she want to leave her child with Atris of all people? She would have manipulated that situation differently and we know sheís good at getting what she wants. If anything, she would have tried to keep, perhaps hide her and use her for her cunning purposes. This reminds that if Kreia wanted to hide Briannaís existence from the Jedi Council, she would have gotten away with it. Anybody who knows Kreia knows sheís very clever.

There are other questions I have thought up in the past about this whole situation that I havenít brought to attention. If anything, I hope Iíve made enough points why I canít buy into it so at least you understand my personal point of view.

Itís possible that a revelation could come out and say that Kreia and Kae are the game person. If that were to happen, I would be one of the first to admit I was wrong. The only thing that would puzzle me is that some things wouldnít add up with the whole situation and there would have to be holes to fill so there would be nothing that contracts the revelation. That way itís not bad story telling. I would find that hard to do to be honest.

Iím more in the boat that itís something that probably will never be resolved. Perhaps ďno commentĒ was mentioned about the situation by Chris Avellone (I believe it was him) was because he wanted to leave something for us to talk about and debate. If I was in his shoes, I probably would have said the same thing just to keep the debate alive and keep something fresh about a game that is many years old. Those who know me best know that is something Iím very capable of doing and enjoy watching people debate and get a few good laughs, especially if I knew I was responsible for the reason why itís still debated. Maybe it would be a good thing to leave unsolved. That way we have something to talk about for a game that is closing in on four years.

Am I here to change your mind? No. What would be the point of that to be honest? Most people who go at each other back and forth trying to change other peopleís minds already have made up their minds on what they are going to believe so trying to change it is pointless. The debates become pointless because many times bitter feelings towards the other person youíre debating can develop because both sides are suborn.

Once someone sets their mind to something, most likely theyíre not going to change it. Life has taught me that many people wonít even accept the truth even when itís revealed to them, which is why I love Carthís quote that you see in my signature because I have a great respect for those who can accept the truth when itís presented in front of them, even if they donít like it. Peopleís pride and/or ego are the only thing that holds them back in those situations because they have this obsession about having to be right about almost everything. Iím already seeing signs of this when I skim through this debate.


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Old 04-19-2008, 03:35 PM   #58
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Well I came on here to remark in a new topic on the revelation that "scorchy"'s walkthrough seem to reveal, but it seems you've been doing some debating on your own, as only people who have entirely too much time on their hands can do.

DOES THIS MATTER? The point is it was a fun game with a interesting character. She could be one or the other. Don't get me wrong, I love the game, but despite my taking the entire day yesterday to read said walkthrough, I'm not this hooked on it.
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Old 04-19-2008, 04:21 PM   #59
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I think that post was insulting as well as entirely unnecessary.


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Old 04-19-2008, 06:18 PM   #60
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I used to think that people that advocated this had too much time on their hands, but after reading Scorchy's walkthrough, I'm a believer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clint_johnston2
Well I came on here to remark in a new topic on the revelation that "scorchy"'s walkthrough seem to reveal, but it seems you've been doing some debating on your own, as only people who have entirely too much time on their hands can do.
See? Clearly the author intended to imply that my avatar is Clint_johnston2's mother.
It's all there if you put the pieces together.
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Old 04-19-2008, 06:33 PM   #61
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Well I came on here to remark in a new topic on the revelation that "scorchy"'s walkthrough seem to reveal, but it seems you've been doing some debating on your own, as only people who have entirely too much time on their hands can do.
Clearly, your so much more busy than us that you posted in this thread?



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Old 04-19-2008, 06:59 PM   #62
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Enough lampooning him gentlemen. It won't do any more good.


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Old 04-19-2008, 07:07 PM   #63
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See? Clearly the author intended to imply that my avatar is Clint_johnston2's mother.
It's all there if you put the pieces together.


Back to topic, though...

To me, whether Mr Avellone and company intended Kreia to be Kae is not the question. Aside from the fact that Mr Avellone has all but confirmed that this was their intention, it's irrelevant now anyway, becase KOTOR 2 is over and done with. Like it or not, Kreia's past is in the hands of Mr Miller and the rest of the KOTOR comic crew. And, unfortunately, I think it's very possible that they're trying to make Krynda into Kreia.

Although, on a somewhat related topic, I keep getting the feeling that Krynda is actually no longer with us. Is this just me?


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Old 04-20-2008, 02:00 AM   #64
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Back to topic, though...

To me, whether Mr Avellone and company intended Kreia to be Kae is not the question. Aside from the fact that Mr Avellone has all but confirmed that this was their intention, it's irrelevant now anyway, becase KOTOR 2 is over and done with. Like it or not, Kreia's past is in the hands of Mr Miller and the rest of the KOTOR comic crew. And, unfortunately, I think it's very possible that they're trying to make Krynda into Kreia.

Although, on a somewhat related topic, I keep getting the feeling that Krynda is actually no longer with us. Is this just me?
This may be just my opinion but whatever. Krynda only really offers up a fleshed out backstory , if she is Kreia that is. Offers an explanation (I'm springing to arguments made by both sides here) why she hates love (dead hubby and bad son), hates the Force (the prophecies are kinda screwing her over), who these students whom the Council felt fell to the Dark Side. People don't really come to these revelations all by themselves when sitting around all day. It takes experience to get to Kreia's point. And the fact that the Padawan Massacre of Taris sprung a lot of negative effects which affected more then one would imagine (think economics and the like as well as the butterfly effect). Krynda comes off as a very depressed and lonely teacher sort of lady who is constantly blaming herself. Isn't that why Kreia "fell" (using the word sparingly) in the first place?

As for her no longer being with us...I hope not. And I'm not just saying that in hopes that I am right myself. Krynda has a lot to answer for concerning the Covenant and their actions. That and I want her to smack Lucien around some more. Though still speculating that Lucien is Sion and Krynda is Kreia. Would be nice to see that deeper connection between the two. After all that coveting attention from his mother, Lucien finally gets her to be his teacher but not exactly in the way he expects...the whole breaking thing and the falling apart business. So tragic...that's something Arren Kae couldn't do if she was Kreia being that Brianna is such a simpler character and there wasn't any relationship between her and Kreia anyway besides the fact that Kreia wanted to use her to get to Atris. It'd be a twist just for the sake of being a twist.
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Old 04-20-2008, 06:28 PM   #65
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Though still speculating that Lucien is Sion and Krynda is Kreia. Would be nice to see that deeper connection between the two. After all that coveting attention from his mother, Lucien finally gets her to be his teacher but not exactly in the way he expects...the whole breaking thing and the falling apart business. So tragic...that's something Arren Kae couldn't do if she was Kreia being that Brianna is such a simpler character and there wasn't any relationship between her and Kreia anyway besides the fact that Kreia wanted to use her to get to Atris. It'd be a twist just for the sake of being a twist.
Assuming that Kreia is Krynda and that Lucien played his part on it somehow... what's Haazen role on all of this?


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Old 04-20-2008, 07:06 PM   #66
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Foreshadowing.


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Old 04-20-2008, 10:40 PM   #67
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Clearly, your so much more busy than us that you posted in this thread?
I'm not saying that the topic isn't worth discussion. Just that 2 pages of "YES it is" and "No it isn't" doesn't really get anybody anywhere.

And if I have enough time to replay both games, who am I kidding? I have too much time on my own hands...
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Old 04-20-2008, 10:59 PM   #68
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I'm not saying that the topic isn't worth discussion. Just that 2 pages of "YES it is" and "No it isn't" doesn't really get anybody anywhere.

And if I have enough time to replay both games, who am I kidding? I have too much time on my own hands...
Isn't "Yes it is" and "No it isn't" a discussion? and if you have too much time on your hands, why are you posting?


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Old 04-21-2008, 12:50 AM   #69
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Assuming that Kreia is Krynda and that Lucien played his part on it somehow... what's Haazen role on all of this?
Actually. JCarter pretty much sums it up. Haazen is JJM red herring, the guy who we instantly look at and think of Sion. He's Lucien's master and Haazen seems to have done a bang up job keeping himself together from the last war. Haazen is the guy who I don't see lasting forever in the series. A red shirt if you will.
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Old 04-21-2008, 01:00 AM   #70
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Isn't "Yes it is" and "No it isn't" a discussion? and if you have too much time on your hands, why are you posting?
Because....he/she has too much time on his/her hands.


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Old 04-21-2008, 01:08 AM   #71
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Because....he/she has too much time on his/her hands.
But If he/she has too much time on his hands so he posts but claims to not have enough time to post doesn't that mean*Brain explodes from the logical fallacy and the very hypocrisy of the action*


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Old 04-21-2008, 01:11 AM   #72
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Actually. JCarter pretty much sums it up. Haazen is JJM red herring, the guy who we instantly look at and think of Sion. He's Lucien's master and Haazen seems to have done a bang up job keeping himself together from the last war. Haazen is the guy who I don't see lasting forever in the series. A red shirt if you will.
A red shirt for a red herring.

Yup. that's pretty much what I was referring to. He's the spitten image of Sion, for two reasons: 1) it makes people think he's Sion, thus throwing them off a bit if/when Lucien is revealed to be Sion (which I actually think is a good move, as long as they don't make Krynda into Kreia ), and 2) it also foreshadows that Lucien is going to become Sion, because he's going to make the same mistakes Haazen did. What will happen to Haazen? Who knows? He probably isn't long for this world, considering the condition that he's in. Or maybe Zayne takes him down; that's always a possibility (especially if Krynda is actually dead, and he's the one pulling the strings ).


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Old 04-21-2008, 01:44 AM   #73
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Sion being Lucien and Kreia being Krynda still would have more "poetic justice" considering the whole "jealousy of the Miraluka thing" Lucien's got going and then him just getting the bad end of a lightsaber from mommy. But either way would work out.

Then there's another Krynda/Kreia similarity.

"She's here. Can't you feel her presence?"

"No. I mean, yes. I mean --"

He senses her yet he doesn't. Obviously something is up with Krynda's lack of "present" appearances. But this is practically Kreia's trademark, making herself so small as to be unnoticed by other Force users. It's funny. As I was reading this page just now, Haazen sounds so much like Kreia. It's practically her speaking through him. Though maybe that's just usual Jedi cryptic.
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Old 04-21-2008, 07:08 AM   #74
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A red shirt for a red herring.

Yup. that's pretty much what I was referring to. He's the spitten image of Sion, for two reasons: 1) it makes people think he's Sion, thus throwing them off a bit if/when Lucien is revealed to be Sion (which I actually think is a good move, as long as they don't make Krynda into Kreia )
I just have the feeling that if they make him Sion, probably Krynda will be Kreia. Something about making Kotor a more family game.


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Old 04-21-2008, 04:38 PM   #75
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Yeah, same here. That's the one reason I don't want Lucien to be Sion.

However, I also think that it's possible Krynda is just a red herring as well, if she's actually dead as I suspect. Lucien could still be Sion, and his apprenticeship to Kreia would still fit, as she reminds him so much of his mother. But this may be wishful thinking on my part.


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Old 04-21-2008, 07:18 PM   #76
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Grrr, can't Kreia and Sion just stay Kreia and Sion? I have no problem with Kreia being Arren Kae, because there is some evidence to back it up in the game. All this about Kreia being Krynda, etc. is giving me one of these --->

I hate the EU, can you tell?


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Old 04-21-2008, 07:26 PM   #77
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Grrr, can't Kreia and Sion just stay Kreia and Sion? I have no problem with Kreia being Arren Kae, because there is some evidence to back it up in the game. All this about Kreia being Krynda, etc. is giving me one of these --->

I hate the EU, can you tell?
QFT.

It's like when one studio releases a wildly successful film so other studios start releasing similar movies direct to DVD that have similar marketing (font, DVD covers, etc). The sad thing is that they only do this because there are enough people going ga-ga for the knock-off to make it profitable.
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Old 04-21-2008, 07:41 PM   #78
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Grrr, can't Kreia and Sion just stay Kreia and Sion? I have no problem with Kreia being Arren Kae, because there is some evidence to back it up in the game. All this about Kreia being Krynda, etc. is giving me one of these --->
Oh, I agree. While I whole-heartedly support seeing the backgrounds of Kreia, Sion, Revan, Malak, etc in the comics, I'm sick of all these poorly designed attempts at plot twists (see: the Revanchist leader, Alek Squintsalot).


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Old 04-21-2008, 07:48 PM   #79
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Personally, I'd like having Revan do something that is actually seen, rather than mentioned by Basil Exposition.


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Old 04-21-2008, 09:13 PM   #80
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It's not like Revan doesn't already have segments of a personality anyway - given his memory wipe, they could literally do whatever the hell they wanted with the character and nobody would really have any cause to complain.
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