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View Poll Results: Who do you believe to be Kreia's "true" identity?
Arren Kae 32 65.31%
Krynda Draay 5 10.20%
Neither 8 16.33%
Not sure 4 8.16%
Voters: 49. You may not vote on this poll


Thread: Kreia's true identity
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Old 04-21-2008, 10:32 PM   #81
Jolly Boots
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Originally Posted by Melly
Grrr, can't Kreia and Sion just stay Kreia and Sion? I have no problem with Kreia being Arren Kae, because there is some evidence to back it up in the game. All this about Kreia being Krynda, etc. is giving me one of these --->

I hate the EU, can you tell?
Wait. Isn't KOTOR EU?

I find it funny how it's possible to punch holes in the Arren Kae theory yet the only thing the Kae theorists can come up with to punch holes in Krynda is the fact that she is a new creation of the comics and not directly from the game. Really. I honestly don't think the Kae theorists have even tried to look and even read the material.

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Oh, I agree. While I whole-heartedly support seeing the backgrounds of Kreia, Sion, Revan, Malak, etc in the comics, I'm sick of all these poorly designed attempts at plot twists (see: the Revanchist leader, Alek Squintsalot).
I don't think it was intended for them to be a plot twist. It's kinda hard to reveal that Alek is going to be Malak in a number years without giving into the "dream sequence" in which, as the comic likes to press, aren't reliable. I think JJM just likes building up the characters so much that by the time it's revealed, it's not even a plot twist. Like if it was a plot twist, JVS:EGTF wouldn't have thrown that little tibit in about those two.
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Old 04-21-2008, 10:34 PM   #82
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I've never seen anyone punch holes in the Kae theory, and the reason why Kaeists can't punch holes in Kryndists is because there is so little on Krynda.
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Old 04-21-2008, 10:47 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by Jolly Boots
Wait. Isn't KOTOR EU?

I find it funny how it's possible to punch holes in the Arren Kae theory yet the only thing the Kae theorists can come up with to punch holes in Krynda is the fact that she is a new creation of the comics and not directly from the game. Really. I honestly don't think the Kae theorists have even tried to look and even read the material.
Well, as a Kae theorist myself, I can say that 1)
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Originally Posted by Corinthian
I've never seen anyone punch holes in the Kae theory, and the reason why Kaeists can't punch holes in Kryndists is because there is so little on Krynda.
what Corinthian said, and 2) I do follow the comics. I've missed one volume, however, as I'm waiting for it to come out in trade paperback

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I don't think it was intended for them to be a plot twist. It's kinda hard to reveal that Alek is going to be Malak in a number years without giving into the "dream sequence" in which, as the comic likes to press, aren't reliable. I think JJM just likes building up the characters so much that by the time it's revealed, it's not even a plot twist.
Might not have been intended as a plot twist, but that's what it looks like. That actually annoys me more, because it's not meant to be a plot twist, why did they wait so long to reveal it? There's absolutely no point to learn the backstory of Revan and Malak if we're not 100% sure that they're Revan and Malak (and even though it was so obvious, no one could be 100% sure).


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Old 04-21-2008, 10:56 PM   #84
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Shem gave a pretty good post that punched some holes into it. Link. Solid. Though he doesn't mention the fact that Disciple can name Arren Kae. And if Kreia was Kae then why couldn't he recall Revan's first master? If they were the same then Kae wouldn't have even been mentioned in the first place unless there was another name Kreia was going under. By punching holes in the Krynda theory, I meant that some theorists seem totally closed off and stubborn like "No. No. No. Your wrong. I'm right. Case closed." Arms folded, blah, blah, blah. Or to the point where they believe that Chris Avellone is the best writer and his writing surpasses all and the original intent MUST take place...yeah. Not the best thing to think when the game he intended for was pretty much chopped up into little bits and he also screwed up continuity with the basilisk thing.

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Might not have been intended as a plot twist, but that's what it looks like. That actually annoys me more, because it's not meant to be a plot twist, why did they wait so long to reveal it? There's absolutely no point to learn the backstory of Revan and Malak if we're not 100% sure that they're Revan and Malak (and even though it was so obvious, no one could be 100% sure).
Funny thing is that they have yet to even mention it in the series. I found that very odd then came to the conclusion that it wasn't a twist. I was actually expecting Alek being the one to kill off Raana and then Zayne getting a vision. It's like Darth Krayt being A'shard Hett. That fact wasn't the twist of the series, that was just a revelation that may or may not have been obvious. Like a "...oh.". Not a "Say WHA?! How did I miss that?!" like Revan in K1 and Nyna Calixte being Morrigan Corde.
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Old 04-21-2008, 11:08 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jolly Boots
Wait. Isn't KOTOR EU?
There's EU and then there's EU.

I can't speak for others but I might be willing to assume that what we're talking about is the difference between good writing that adds to the universe and bad writing that tries to sell more units to fanboys.

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Originally Posted by Jolly Boots
I find it funny how it's possible to punch holes in the Arren Kae theory yet the only thing the Kae theorists can come up with to punch holes in Krynda is the fact that she is a new creation of the comics and not directly from the game. Really. I honestly don't think the Kae theorists have even tried to look and even read the material.
Gee, how many air-tight arguments are necessary? If the comic came out after the game, then clearly the game writer did not write the character with the comic in mind. Pretty obvious, no?

Now if there's a...I think you guys call them "retcons"...retcon, then there's a retcon, but I think the whole point of this thread is to point out that not everyone is going to gobble up that big ole' spoonful of "can't write my own stories" with a smile on their face. Do you advocate midochlorians, Greedo shooting first, and Jabba's song and dance band too?
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Old 04-21-2008, 11:16 PM   #86
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I can't speak for others but I might be willing to assume that what we're talking about is the difference between good writing that adds to the universe and bad writing that tries to sell more units to fanboys.
Isn't that just a matter of opinion? Personally, I don't think Avellone is the best writer in the world. His screw up with the whole basilisk, Mandalore, etc is quite annoying. And I don't think JJM's writing is the best either - too inconsistent with characters behavior - though Vector I can't blame totally on him. Also, I think he's a little too simple with his dialog, not really realistic enough where someone would just say "Dammit!". And both of them have a tendency to drag out the dialog way too far.
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Gee, how many air-tight arguments are necessary? If the comic came out after the game, then clearly the game writer did not write the character with the comic in mind. Pretty obvious, no?
Chris Avellone has the rights of Kreia. Lucas can do whatever the hell he feels like with her. One would like to think that Avellone still had control but he doesn't. It's in JJM hands. You can't make that arugement here. Original intent is all well and good but means jack.
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Now if there's a...I think you guys call them "retcons"...retcon, then there's a retcon, but I think the whole point of this thread is to point out that not everyone is going to gobble up that big ole' spoonful of "can't write my own stories". Do you advocate midochlorians, Greedo shooting first, and Jabba's song and dance band too?
God no. But it's, unfortuantly, canon. I'm not even happy about the decisious made about Revan or the Exile. At all. But I don't have any control. I know people like that. I just don't happen to. Am I going to say "No. No. Han shot first. Case closed." No, that's me just being stubborn. It isn't real. No point in getting bent out of shape about it.
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Old 04-21-2008, 11:18 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by Jolly Boots
Wait. Isn't KOTOR EU?
Yes, it's been accepted into the EU and been expanded one. It was actually the latter that I was saying I hated along with about 99.9% of all the books, comics, etc. that also makes up the EU. To me KotOR is what's in the game, and that's it.

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I find it funny how it's possible to punch holes in the Arren Kae theory yet the only thing the Kae theorists can come up with to punch holes in Krynda is the fact that she is a new creation of the comics and not directly from the game. Really. I honestly don't think the Kae theorists have even tried to look and even read the material.
I don't know if this was directed at me but... I'll answer it anyway. I said that I have no problem with Kreia being Kae because there is some (the operative word there some) evidence of it in TSL whether is was intentional is up for debate, but I don't recall ever saying it was a air tight theory. If Kreia's not Kae, I have no problem with that either. However, I do think the real reason why a lot of people (but no all) don't like the thought that Kreia is Kae is because they don't like the idea of having Kreia as a mother-in-law.

As for why I have a problem with this Kreia is Krynda theory is exactly what you said because there's no mention of her at all in TSL, because she was invented later. So it would be complete and utter retcon, and I loathe that.


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Old 04-21-2008, 11:20 PM   #88
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To me it seemed that Kreia was protective of the handmaiden. More like a mother, so it made sense to me that Kreia was Kae. However since that dialogue is not part of the canon story(another bone of contention for me), it is possible that Krynda Draay is her "real" identity.
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Old 04-21-2008, 11:22 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by Jolly Boots
And if Kreia was Kae then why couldn't he recall Revan's first master? If they were the same then Kae wouldn't have even been mentioned in the first place unless there was another name Kreia was going under.
Mical does recall Revan's first master. He never tells the player that it was specifically Kae, however (most likely because the Exile doesn't really care ). However, Kreia wipes his memory when he tells the Exile too much about Revan. After that, he remembers Kae's name, but he doesn't remember who Revan's first master was. Now, I bet you're thinking "Well, that means that Kae isn't Kreia, because Kreia would have wiped that too". Well, no, for a number of reasons. The main reason is that she doesn't care if the Exile knows who Arren Kae was (in fact, she tells male Exile herself), because that wouldn't give away anything, because everyone thinks Kae is dead.

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By punching holes in the Krynda theory, I meant that some theorists seem totally closed off and stubborn like "No. No. No. Your wrong. I'm right. Case closed." Arms folded, blah, blah, blah.
Can't speak for others, but my view is that Krynda could be Kreia, but if she were it would break continuity. Now, would that stop them? Of course not. They already broke continuity with the whole Alek/Revanchist thing (one instance: the Exile shouldn't have known the name Malak if he didn't go by that name until the Jedi Civil War).

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Or to the point where they believe that Chris Avellone is the best writer and his writing surpasses all and the original intent MUST take place...yeah.
Mr Avellone is a fine writer. But I see your point.

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Not the best thing to think when the game he intended for was pretty much chopped up into little bits and he also screwed up continuity with the basilisk thing.
He's a writer, not head of the arts department. And that wasn't a continuity error; they intentionally changed the look of the Basilisk droid because the old ones looked silly. Not the first time this has happened, and it could be easily explained as an improvement in technology (hell, BioWare made an even bigger "continuity error" with K1--but that can be explained away for the same reason).

Not to say that K2 doesn't have a few continuity errors, but I blame LA for that, because they didn't let the development team even play K1 until about halfway through development (and then pushed up the due date three months, making it so that the team couldn't fix all those errors).


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Old 04-21-2008, 11:23 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jolly Boots
Isn't that just a matter of opinion?
If you'd like to present an argument for how it isn't a matter of fact, then I'll be happy to take a look at whatever you'd like to present.

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Originally Posted by Jolly Boots
Chris Avellone has the rights of Kreia. Lucas can do whatever the hell he feels like with her. One would like to think that Avellone still had control but he doesn't. It's in JJM hands. You can't make that arugement here. Original intent is all well and good but means jack.
I like how you just made my point without addressing it directly. Yes, if "JJM" wants to rip-off Chris Avellone's work so that he can feel clever, and GL wants to sign off on it so that he can sell more comic books, then that is GL's right to do so. But let's at least acknowledge it for what it is and not pretend that Chris Avellone's story isn't being hijacked, okay?

Yes, I get that canon is more important that artistic integrity for you, but not everyone feels the same way. And while this does ultimately boil down to "tastes great" vs "less filling" the aforementioned facts of the matter aren't going to change.

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Originally Posted by Jolly Boots
God no. But it's, unfortuantly, canon. I'm not even happy about the decisious made about Revan or the Exile. At all. But I don't have any control. I know people like that. I just don't happen to. Am I going to say "No. No. Han shot first. Case closed." No, that's me just being stubborn. It isn't real. No point in getting bent out of shape about it.
But you'll get bent out of shape about this? Something isn't consistent here.

PS: And by admitting that you accept it as canon, you are admitting that you do advocate it (canon > everything else).
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Old 04-21-2008, 11:33 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by JCarter426
Not to say that K2 doesn't have a few continuity errors, but I blame LA for that, because they didn't let the development team even play K1 until about halfway through development (and then pushed up the due date three months, making it so that the team couldn't fix all those errors).
Really? Where did you hear that? Seriously, I want to know. It'll give me more when defending K2.


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Old 04-21-2008, 11:36 PM   #92
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However, I do think the real reason why a lot of people (but no all) don't like the thought that Kreia is Kae is because they don't like the idea of having Kreia as a mother-in-law.
Oh, Kreia would be such a fun mother-in-law.

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As for why I have a problem with this Kreia is Krynda theory is exactly what you said because there's no mention of her at all in TSL, because she was invented later. So it would be complete and utter retcon, and I loathe that.
And I loathe a twist for the sake of a twist. "I am your mother" for the hell of it? No. Kreia doesn't have a deep enough connection to her for that.

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Can't speak for others, but my view is that Krynda could be Kreia, but if she were it would break continuity. Now, would that stop them? Of course not. They already broke continuity with the whole Alek/Revanchist thing (one instance: the Exile shouldn't have known the name Malak if he didn't go by that name until the Jedi Civil War).
Point taken.

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He's a writer, not head of the arts department. And that wasn't a continuity error; they intentionally changed the look of the Basilisk droid because the old ones looked silly. Not the first time this has happened, and it could be easily explained as an improvement in technology (hell, BioWare made an even bigger "continuity error" with K1--but that can be explained away for the same reason).
Ah...and now we have JJM doing to Avellone what he did to the writer of TOTJ. Consciously taking a factor and screwing around with it.

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I like how you just made my point without addressing it directly. Yes, if "JJM" wants to rip-off Chris Avellone's work so that he can feel clever, and GL wants to sign off on it so that he can sell more comic books, then that is GL's right to do so. But let's at least acknowledge it for what it is and not pretend that Chris Avellone's story isn't being hijacked, okay?
Not denying it. And Avellone hijacked it from whoever the hell wrote the first KOTOR. While I, and certainly you, believe he did for the better, I can make an argument saying that he completley took K1s characters and screwed them up and screwed up the series. It isn't ripping off if the same guys are from the same company. The point of the games were to make money. The point of the second one was to make more money since the first did so well. It's all about the money.

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But you'll get bent out of shape about this? Something isn't consistent here.
I'm not getting bent out of shape. If it turns out I'm wrong. A quiet "dammit" and laugh at myself will do and then move on to the next speculative business at hand.

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PS: And by admitting that you accept it as canon, you are admitting that you do advocate it (canon > everything else).
You make it sound like I advocated the Holocaust. Which apparently I do since I accept that it happened and don't dwell on it.
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Old 04-21-2008, 11:48 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by Jolly Boots
Ah...and now we have JJM doing to Avellone what he did to the writer of TOTJ. Consciously taking a factor and screwing around with it.
I'd hardly compare changing the artistic style to completely rehashing one of the main characters. Now, what they did with Malak was all fine and dandy, but did they really need to make several major continuity errors and retcons along the way?


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Old 04-21-2008, 11:55 PM   #94
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I'd hardly compare changing the artistic style to completely rehashing one of the main characters. Now, what they did with Malak was all fine and dandy, but did they really need to make several major continuity errors and retcons along the way?
I believe JJM's explanation for the name (before it was even finally said that they were the same) was that even though a guy like Josef Stalin had different name at first, everyone after the fact only knew him as Stalin and that's how history remembers him. It doesn't account for Exile's name but for all we know Alek changes his name before he even takes the Darth title.
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Old 04-22-2008, 12:00 AM   #95
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No argument coming then? Okay.

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Originally Posted by Jolly Boots
Not denying it. And Avellone hijacked it from whoever the hell wrote the first KOTOR.
He hijacked Kreia's character from KotOR? You'll have to help me out with that one.

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Originally Posted by Jolly Boots
While I, and certainly you, believe he did for the better, I can make an argument saying that he completley took K1s characters and screwed them up and screwed up the series.
The only character that he took liberty with was HK-47. I suppose you could argue T3-M4 as well, but since all of his dialog is inferred, I think that would be a difficult sell indeed.

Also, how does one "screw up the series" in the first sequel? It can't be a series until there's at least two correct?

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Originally Posted by Jolly Boots
It isn't ripping off if the same guys are from the same company. The point of the games were to make money. The point of the second one was to make more money since the first did so well. It's all about the money.
No doubt that Obsidian was very much interested in turning a profit, but Avellone's consistent lamenting of not getting to finish his vision of the game suggests to me that it was more than a paycheck.

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Originally Posted by Jolly Boots
I'm not getting bent out of shape. If it turns out I'm wrong. A quiet "dammit" and laugh at myself will do and then move on to the next speculative business at hand.
But how can you be wrong? If they retcon Kreia then it's canon and then you get to be right. Cheer up, GL will do all your thinking for you.

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You make it sound like I advocated the Holocaust. Which apparently I do since I accept that it happened and don't dwell on it.
Excellent work with that strawman.
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Old 04-22-2008, 12:10 AM   #96
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It doesn't account for Exile's name but for all we know Alek changes his name before he even takes the Darth title.
Not according to Jedi vs Sith, which claims that Revan and Malak changed their names upon finding Lehon and the Star Forge.

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Not denying it. And Avellone hijacked it from whoever the hell wrote the first KOTOR.
Actually, the BioWare development team recommended Avellone and Obsidian. Oh, and K1's head writer was Drew Karpyshyn.

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Originally Posted by Achilles
The only character that he took liberty with was HK-47.
Who was written wonderfully, by the way.

One could also argue Revan, but that's only if you take everything at face value--and with a game like K2, you really shouldn't.


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Old 04-22-2008, 12:17 AM   #97
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He hijacked Kreia's character from KotOR? You'll have to help me out with that one.

The only character that he took liberty with was HK-47. I suppose you could argue T3-M4 as well, but since all of his dialog is inferred, I think that would be a difficult sell indeed.
Revan anyone? Oh he didn't really fall to the dark side. And the mere creation of a True Sith, which has met some criticism. Me, I'm withholding until I see something come from that.
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Originally Posted by Achilles
Also, how does one "screw up the series" in the first sequel? It can't be a series until there's at least two correct?
Potential of a series.

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No doubt that Obsidian was very much interested in turning a profit, but Avellone's consistent lamenting of not getting to finish his vision of the game suggests to me that it was more than a paycheck.
Such a shame no one can prove that. But if he wasn't getting paid, he wouldn't have written the game.

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But how can you be wrong? If they retcon Kreia then it's canon and then you get to be right. Cheer up, GL will do all your thinking for you.
Oh I can easily be wrong. Krynda can easily be someone else and Kae can end up being Kreia. And if I am right, then yay. Its always nice to be right. And I'm not sure what your assuming by letting GL do all of my thinking.

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Excellent work with that strawman.
Advocating and accepting the fact are two totally different things. Yes, yes. It's all horrible and awful and should never have happened but really. One must get on with ones life (especially with things like the Holocaust that was never even in my life in the first place). Dwelling isn't healthy. What do you want? A protest in the street that "Lucas should have never have created midichlorians! He should have kept Han shooting first!" Yeah...smart.
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Old 04-22-2008, 12:30 AM   #98
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Revan anyone? Oh he didn't really fall to the dark side.
*points up*

Allow me to elaborate...

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Originally Posted by Me
G0-T0 and Mical point out Revan's strategy, yes (HK too). But never do they say that Revan didn't fall. In fact, quite the opposite. They all just approve of his decision though (even Mical, to an extent). But that doesn't change the fact that Revan fell.

Oh, and speaking of which, that was one of the things I liked about K2. Everyone was wrong. That's right, everyone. Canderous had this delusion in that the Republic would be better off under Mandalorian rule. Mical lived in a fantasy world where the Jedi had a nice talk with Revan and worked things out. HK believed that he was more than the sum of his parts, that his assassination has more meaning than just mindless killing. G0-T0 believed that it didn't matter which side one picked, as long as they picked one. And of course Kreia wouldn't admit that Revan was a failure. They all had different views, making the player see things from all sides. And yet they were all wrong.

[...]

Everyone who made Revan out to be a living legend was wrong. Only the player (not the Exile, as the Exile was wrong too ) was right, as the player most likely had played K1 and knew what really happened (now that is a fatal flaw--assuming the player has played the original--but that's another matter).
Second time I've quoted that in as many days.

As I said above, you shouldn't take everything in K2 at face value. The writers of K2 don't give you the facts; they give you a whole lot of hearsay and biased opinions, and it's up to the player to piece everything together for themself.


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Old 04-22-2008, 12:35 AM   #99
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Not according to Jedi vs Sith, which claims that Revan and Malak changed their names upon finding Lehon and the Star Forge.
Got me there.

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Originally Posted by JCarter426
Actually, the BioWare development team recommended Avellone and Obsidian. Oh, and K1's head writer was Drew Karpyshyn.
And how do we know Avellone didn't recommend JJM? Wait, don't answer that one. I already know the answer. We don't know. Perhaps someone should inquiry him if he had any involvement with the comics. Interesting to know what he thinks. Though I doubt we'd get any answers. Ah well. Would be nice to know though.
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Old 04-22-2008, 12:46 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by Jolly Boots
Revan anyone? Oh he didn't really fall to the dark side. And the mere creation of a True Sith, which has met some criticism. Me, I'm withholding until I see something come from that.
I actually don't have a problem with it, if is indeed not just a fallacy of Kreia's. Mainly, because we're not really told anything about Revan in the first game (and I'm talking strictly game here). What do we know? That Revan split with the rest of the Jedi Order, joined the Mandalorian Wars, met something on the Outer Rim, fell to the DS, attacked the Republic, Bastila "captured" Revan, cue the opening theme. That's it pretty much. We're led to believe that it was the Star Forge that corrupted Revan and Malak, but we're never told that it was specifically so it's really not a retcon.

And with the information that Obsidian gives us in K2 certain conversations in K1 can be interpreted entirely different. Like one between Bastila and Carth when he asked her if she was tempted to join the Mandy Wars. Canderous says the Sith were the ones that convinced the Mandalorians to attack the Republic, etc.

As for the "True Sith" that wasn't entirely Obsidian's creation *drags out .tlk file*

Canderous: "The Sith came to us with an offer: to fight a worthy enemy in a battle that would be remembered forever."
Canderous: "The Sith had gone - retreated into their empire. They sealed themselves off from the rest of the galaxy. We thought it would be centuries before they'd come back. It's amazing that they could rebuild their fleet so fast."

Both those lines are from K1, Canderous is of course, confusing the Sith they're fighting in K1 for the Sith that tricked the Mandalorians into fighting the Republic. They're not the same Sith, as we well know.

Of course, maybe I'm just bias because I love K2 so much... and a certain Zabrak.


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~Bao-Dur, The Sith Lords
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Old 04-22-2008, 12:52 AM   #101
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I'm not saying at all that it bothers me. I have no problems with either Sith or Revan "recons" or whatever. Just saying an argument can and has been made against it.

Quote:
And with the information that Obsidian gives us in K2 certain conversations in K1 can be interpreted entirely different. Like one between Bastila and Carth when he asked her if she was tempted to join the Mandy Wars. Canderous says the Sith were the ones that convinced the Mandalorians to attack the Republic, etc.
And can't JJM give information that makes info in K2 interpreted different too? Can't he write a comic without having some sinister motive to undercut, hijack, seem better then Avellone?
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Old 04-22-2008, 01:03 AM   #102
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Well if he isn't then that's that, but in my opinion he's not doing a very good job of making it seem like he has another motive.


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Old 04-22-2008, 01:07 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by Jolly Boots
And can't JJM give information that makes info in K2 interpreted different too?
By all means. But there's a difference between interpretation and retcons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Melly
Really? Where did you hear that? Seriously, I want to know. It'll give me more when defending K2.
Whoops...didn't see that earlier. My apologies.

For the first one...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Avellone
[from http://www.starwarsknights.com/fullstory.php?id=386]

The first story draft was pretty terrible, mostly because we weren’t allowed to play K1 before drafting it, so we really knew nothing about the first game and were writing in the dark (Revan who?).

It was a frustrating situation that we wasted 2-3 months on that (there was nothing to be done about it), and then had to do another revision once we were able to play the first game. If you feel a disconnect in the storylines, that would be one of the reasons (again, my fault).
As for the second...can't find a link at the moment...might find one later. It's true, though.


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Old 04-22-2008, 01:08 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by Ravnas
Well if he isn't then that's that, but in my opinion he's not doing a very good job of making it seem like he has another motive.
Oh yes. John Jackson Miller has a saddistic motive to destroy Avellone's story just for the sake of it. Honestly. Are you living in another world or something? If this was some sort of quasy political game where there are actual stakes and gains to be made besides money, okay. But really. Grow up and look at the world for what it is. Both of these guys are just writers looking to pay for the bread.

I'm detecting a lot of, to be frank, spiteful bias.
Quote:
By all means. But there's a difference between interpretation and retcons.
Making Kreia into Krynda isn't recon since Kreia doesn't even have a fleshed out backstory besides historian who was exiled for her teachings and the fall of her Padawans (not including Revan considering the fact that he "fell" after the Council believed her dead.)
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Old 04-22-2008, 01:08 AM   #105
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QUOTE]The first story draft was pretty terrible, mostly because we weren’t allowed to play K1 before drafting it, so we really knew nothing about the first game and were writing in the dark (Revan who?).[/QUOTE]

It's really a shame, because if they had at least 2 more months, this could've been one of the greatest games ever.


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Last edited by Ravnas; 04-22-2008 at 01:21 AM.
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Old 04-22-2008, 01:12 AM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jolly Boots
Revan anyone? Oh he didn't really fall to the dark side. And the mere creation of a True Sith, which has met some criticism. Me, I'm withholding until I see something come from that.
I believe this argument as already been addressed by others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jolly Boots
Potential of a series.
Oh, well, that's not what you said before. Regardless, this is only your opinion. Without seeing what else is coming, I think it's a little foolish to assume that whatever it is is no good, don't you (especially since you're trying so hard to make a show of not being emotionally invested).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jolly Boots
Such a shame no one can prove that. But if he wasn't getting paid, he wouldn't have written the game.
I'm afraid I'm having difficulty following your train of thought: Are you arguing that people can't love their work?

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Originally Posted by Jolly Boots
Oh I can easily be wrong. Krynda can easily be someone else and Kae can end up being Kreia. And if I am right, then yay. Its always nice to be right. And I'm not sure what your assuming by letting GL do all of my thinking.
But if they retcon it, then it's canon and GL has told you what to think. Or do you wish to change your earlier position on the significance/value of canon?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jolly Boots
Advocating and accepting the fact are two totally different things. Yes, yes. It's all horrible and awful and should never have happened but really. One must get on with ones life (especially with things like the Holocaust that was never even in my life in the first place). Dwelling isn't healthy. What do you want? A protest in the street that "Lucas should have never have created midichlorians! He should have kept Han shooting first!" Yeah...smart.
I have a hard time taking this seriously considering how much time you've spent in this thread. If you want to argue for canon and retcons then that's fine, but don't turn around and criticize others that argue against them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jolly Boots
Making Kreia into Krynda isn't recon since Kreia doesn't even have a fleshed out backstory besides historian who was exiled for her teachings and the fall of her Padawans (not including Revan considering the fact that he "fell" after the Council believed her dead.)
Patently false, however I suspect that your, to be frank, spiteful bias is preventing you from detecting it.
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Old 04-22-2008, 01:19 AM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jolly Boots
Oh yes. John Jackson Miller has a saddistic motive to destroy Avellone's story just for the sake of it. Honestly. Are you living in another world or something? If this was some sort of quasy political game where there are actual stakes and gains to be made besides money, okay. But really. Grow up and look at the world for what it is. Both of these guys are just writers looking to pay for the bread.

I'm detecting a lot of, to be frank, spiteful bias.
Umm, I wasn't insinuating anything, I was just making a simple observation. Last time I checked though, these people do what they do for more than just making money.


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Old 04-22-2008, 01:19 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by Achilles
Oh, well, that's not what you said before. Regardless, this is only your opinion. Without seeing what else is coming, I think it's a little foolish to assume that whatever it is is no good, don't you (especially since you're trying so hard to make a show of not being emotionally invested).
Detecting a bit of spiteful sarcasm. Getting underneath the skin, am I?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
I'm afraid I'm having difficulty following your train of thought: Are you arguing that people can't love their work?
A doctor doesn't heal unless there's a paycheck in it. It's called being human.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
But if they retcon it, then it's canon and GL has told you what to think. Or do you wish to change your earlier position on the significance/value of canon?
It's fiction. It's not real. There's one story. And it's not mine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
I have a hard time taking this seriously considering how much time you've spent in this thread. If you want to argue for canon and retcons then that's fine, but don't turn around and criticize others that argue against them.
Criticize?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Patently false, however I suspect that your, to be frank, spiteful bias is preventing you from detecting it.
I'm not the one getting upset over a piece of fiction being changed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravnas
Umm, I wasn't insinuating anything, I was just making a simple observation. Last time I checked though, these people do what they do for more than just making money.
Now that is funny.
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Old 04-22-2008, 01:20 AM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jolly Boots
Making Kreia into Krynda isn't recon since Kreia doesn't even have a fleshed out backstory besides historian who was exiled for her teachings and the fall of her Padawans (not including Revan considering the fact that he "fell" after the Council believed her dead.)
Ah...not this again...

1. Kreia is human; Krynda is not (%100).
2. Kreia's Force Sight was self-inflicted; Krynda's was not.
3. Kreia taught Revan; Krynda did not.
4. I wasn't even talking about Krynda. Mr Miller has already caused retcons due to the Revanchist/Alek Squirmslikeaworm incident.
5. The Council didn't exile her over Revan's fall. They exiled her because her teachings violated the order. It's implied that some of her previous students (i.e. not Revan) fell (in the Council's eyes at least). After the fact, the Council blamed all of its problems on her, including the Mandalorian Wars and the Jedi Civil War. Again, this does NOT mean that this is the truth. This is but one opinion--a biased one at that.


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Old 04-22-2008, 01:22 AM   #110
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Quote:
1. Kreia is human; Krynda is not (%100).
Who says?
Quote:
2. Kreia's Force Sight was self-inflicted; Krynda's was not.
Again. Who says?
Quote:
3. Kreia taught Revan; Krynda did not.
Do I need to repeat myself?
Quote:
4. I wasn't even talking about Krynda. Mr Miller has already caused retcons due to the Revanchist/Alek Squirmslikeaworm incident.
Hence the title of the thread...
Quote:
5. The Council didn't exile her over Revan's fall. They exiled her because her teachings violated the order. It's implied that some of her previous students (i.e. not Revan) fell (in the Council's eyes at least). After the fact, the Council blamed all of its problems on her, including the Mandalorian Wars and the Jedi Civil War. Again, this does NOT mean that this is the truth. This is but one opinion--a biased one at that.
Which is why I pointed out that it wasn't because of Revan. And I believe Atris is the lady who says that as well Kreia herself.
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Old 04-22-2008, 01:23 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by Jolly Boots
Now that is funny.
Now that is shameless cynicism.


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Old 04-22-2008, 01:26 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by Ravnas
Now that is shameless cynicism.
Not that people can't enjoy their work it's just that what your suggesting is that we're living is that Avellone would have worked for Lucasarts as a writer for nothing.
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Old 04-22-2008, 01:28 AM   #113
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Oh no I wasn't suggesting that at all. I very much doubt he would do that.


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Old 04-22-2008, 01:31 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by Jolly Boots
Who says?
Kreia. And this is one of those times where I'm 99% sure she wasn't lying (can never be 100% with her ).

Quote:
Again. Who says?
Again, Kreia.

Quote:
Do I need to repeat myself?
This time, it's Mr Miller. He's given us no reason to think that Krynda taught Kreia. Unless he does, it's another retcon.

Quote:
And I believe Atris is the lady who says that as well Kreia herself.
Yes, Atris and Kreia. And Vrook. And they're all biased. And they're all wrong.


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Old 04-22-2008, 01:36 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by JCarter426
Kreia. And this is one of those times where I'm 99% sure she wasn't lying (can never be 100% with her ).



Again, Kreia.
Quotes. I need quotes. She never says she 100% human. Nor does she say that she inflicted Force sight onto herself.

Quote:
This time, it's Mr Miller. He's given us no reason to think that Krynda taught Kreia. Unless he does, it's another retcon.
I assume you mean Revan. But he also hasn't given us reason not to think that. It's possible at this point. And as I've mentioned, Lucien and the others did know Revan(chist) to the point of calling him "friend". And where were Lucien and the others during their training? Krynda's place.

Quote:
Yes, Atris and Kreia. And Vrook. And they're all biased. And they're all wrong.
How are they wrong that the Council exiled her for her teachings? I'm not saying the teachings were wrong. That's an in-game thing. But there isn't anything contradicting that fact besides the fact that Arren Kae was exiled for bumping uglies with Yusanis. Which may or may not contradict it. You can't just blantletly say that they're wrong if nothing is there to contradict it besides a piece of information that comes from speculation of another character. "Oh well, this piece and this piece CAN fit to this so that means THAT is wrong."
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Old 04-22-2008, 01:38 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by Jolly Boots
Detecting a bit of spiteful sarcasm. Getting underneath the skin, am I?
Not even close.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jolly Boots
A doctor doesn't heal unless there's a paycheck in it. It's called being human.
That doesn't answer my question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jolly Boots
It's fiction. It's not real. There's one story. And it's not mine.
Neither does this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jolly Boots
Criticize?
intransitive verb
: to act as a critic

transitive verb
1 : to consider the merits and demerits of and judge accordingly : evaluate 2 : to find fault with : point out the faults of

I hope that helps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jolly Boots
I'm not the one getting upset over a piece of fiction being changed.
Not sure how this is related to what we were discussing. Again, not sure how you can comment on my participation in this thread without also painting your participation with the same brush.
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Old 04-22-2008, 01:42 AM   #117
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Not even close.
I don't know. You seem to be taking shots at me where they seem unnecessary and just plain (again) spiteful for the sake of being spiteful.

Quote:
That doesn't answer my question.
One can enjoy their work. They just won't go into the field if there isn't any money in it.

Quote:
Neither does this.
There was a question? I thought you were just taking shots at my intelligence.


Quote:
intransitive verb
: to act as a critic

transitive verb
1 : to consider the merits and demerits of and judge accordingly : evaluate 2 : to find fault with : point out the faults of

I hope that helps.
...see first line.
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Old 04-22-2008, 01:45 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by JCarter426
Again, Kreia.
Yep. To be exact she says one of the following (Or both. It's been I while since I played and I can't remember. I think she told my PC the first one): "There is nothing wrong with my eyes - they simply have atrophied from use. They are adequate to distinguish shapes, silhouettes. If need be, I could heal them, restore my sight, but sight can prove a distraction."

Or

"There is nothing wrong with my sight, if that is your question. I see all that I need, though the seeing of things flesh and blood has failed me some time ago. They were distractions only."

I quoted that directly from the .tlk file, but I think that first one is supposed to be "lack of use", because why would they atrophy if they were in use?


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Old 04-22-2008, 01:48 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by Melly
Yep. To be exact she says one of the following (Or both. It's been I while since I played and I can't remember. I think she told my PC the first one): "There is nothing wrong with my eyes - they simply have atrophied from use. They are adequate to distinguish shapes, silhouettes. If need be, I could heal them, restore my sight, but sight can prove a distraction."

Or

"There is nothing wrong with my sight, if that is your question. I see all that I need, though the seeing of things flesh and blood has failed me some time ago. They were distractions only."

I quoted that directly from the .tlk file, but I think that first one is supposed to be "lack of use", because why would they atrophy if they were in use?
I don't see anywhere in that sentence that she gave herself Force sight. I always interpreted (and I mean, always. Before Krynda even existed.) as she had both at some point (how, never thought about) but then stopped using sight and always used the Force to see.
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Old 04-22-2008, 01:54 AM   #120
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I don't know. You seem to be taking shots at me where they seem unnecessary and just plain (again) spiteful for the sake of being spiteful.
The hypocrisy is getting a little thick, friend.

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Originally Posted by Jolly Boots
One can enjoy their work. They just won't go into the field if there isn't any money in it.
A moment ago, you were arguing for proof about Avellone's motivations, but now you're here making assumptions about them yourself. Surely you can see how hypocritical this is. Having read interviews with Avellone, I know that he's at least willing to tell people that his love of role-play is what got him into the business. And I seriously doubt that you want to argue that video games were the booming industry that they are today 10 years ago or more. Or maybe you do, I don't know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jolly Boots
There was a question? I thought you were just taking shots at my intelligence.
Yes, it was a question. I signified that it was a question by adding a question mark to the end of the sentence. I hope that this also helps to clarify any confusion you may have over future use of question marks as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jolly Boots
...see first line.
Your comment was the word "criticize" with question marks after it. I assumed that you were confused about the word's meaning. If I was supposed to divine some other message from this, then I apologize.
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