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Old 04-29-2008, 12:14 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by JCarter426
"No. We've avoided anything concrete about the canon ending. The only reason why we decided on a canon gender for the Revan and the exile was out of editorial necessity." --Leland Chee, here
Except of course, The New Essential Chronology pretty much confirmed the lightside ending as canon.



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Old 04-29-2008, 12:18 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by TKA-001
Before? When?
Most notably in the recording of the Council at the Exile's trial, where she tries to punish the Exile for what she sees as her (Exile's) failings and fall, and has to be warned by (I think) Zez-Kai Ell not to let her anger at Revan overrule her rational judgement, or something along those lines. Put simply, she was not acting Masterly, if that's a word.
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Old 04-29-2008, 12:52 PM   #43
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"No. We've avoided anything concrete about the canon ending. The only reason why we decided on a canon gender for the Revan and the exile was out of editorial necessity." --Leland Chee, here
I must admit, it is pretty funny how he knowingly, deliberately, and blatantly contradicts his own canon sources, which directly state something which is opposed only by his word and his mythical "Holocron database".


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Old 04-29-2008, 03:09 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Miles Edgeworth
Except of course, The New Essential Chronology pretty much confirmed the lightside ending as canon.
Wasn't NEC; was NEGD. And it doesn't, either, since what happens in the HK factory has nothing to do with the Exile's alignment.

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Originally Posted by TKA-001
I must admit, it is pretty funny how he knowingly, deliberately, and blatantly contradicts his own canon sources, which directly state something which is opposed only by his word and his mythical "Holocron database".
That's his job. That's what they pay him to do, to contradict sources that are wrong. All retcons contradict one source or another. And again, NEGD doesn't actually establish the Exile as light sided.


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Old 04-29-2008, 03:28 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by JCarter426
Wasn't NEC; was NEGD. And it doesn't, either, since what happens in the HK factory has nothing to do with the Exile's alignment.
But the guide also calls the Exile a heroine. Therefore, LSF. (shrugs)
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Originally Posted by TKA-001
Actually, they were evil, considering the fact that the Padawan Massacre at Taris somewhat damages their record, not to mention the severe tempers its members demonstrated. To say that they were Jedi at all is on the same level of rot as claiming that the Dark Jedi of the Hundred Year Darkness (circa 7,003 BBY) or (more recently) the Exile were Jedi, simply because they thought they were doing the right thing.
Once again, its tough to find a group that didn't think that what they were doing was right, Jedi-Sith and everything in-between. I was tying to say that the Convenant itself was not evil, but many of its members are getting there. The Padawan Massacre of Taris was a stupid and hasty move that would definitely qualify as evil-but the organization being evil is what I was arguing against. Clearly Haazen wasn't happy about their actions and some of the masters themselves feel guilty. (seen in Raana's nightmare's, etc.)

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think a more pure evil would be when the person stops caring about the morality of their actions, instead of needing to find a way to convince themselves and others that it is the right thing to do.
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Old 04-29-2008, 03:44 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by luckyariot
But the guide also calls the Exile a heroine. Therefore, LSF. (shrugs)
She was a heroine during the Mandalorian Wars, was she not? And even a DS Exile is heroic during the final battle at Telos. One of the reasons that K2 isn't about good vs evil; whether the Exile is good or evil doesn't make a difference in the long run.


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Old 04-29-2008, 03:50 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by JCarter426
She was a heroine during the Mandalorian Wars, was she not? And even a DS Exile is heroic during the final battle at Telos. One of the reasons that K2 isn't about good vs evil; whether the Exile is good or evil doesn't make a difference in the long run.
It doesn't make much of a difference on the outcome of the game, but it makes a huge difference to the person playing the Exile.
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Old 04-29-2008, 03:54 PM   #48
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Well, yes. But notice that the Exile's alignment does not have any major affect on the ending of the game; Nihilus, Sion, and Kreia all still die, and the Republic is saved.


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Old 04-29-2008, 04:09 PM   #49
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I agree with that statement; that the Exile's alignment does not affect the outcome of the game. However, I believe that's a different statement than "the game is not about good/evil (ls/ds)", since the person playing the game is greatly affected by the Exile's alignment.
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Old 04-29-2008, 04:15 PM   #50
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I see your point. However, I still wouldn't say that it's about good vs evil, since good and evil don't really fight, and neither one wins. Yes, if the Exile is LS she kills the DS Nihilus, but that's not the final battle; the final battle is between Kreia and the Exile. And while Kreia may be a backstabbing, conniving old hag, she's not a metaphor for evil.

So, I guess my point is that while the Exile may be a metaphor for good or evil, that doesn't necessarily mean that the game is about good vs evil, because the Exile has a diverse group of enemies, none of which are true representations of good or evil.

The game is really about the Exile making a choice, not which choice he or she makes.


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Old 04-29-2008, 05:30 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by JCarter426
Wasn't NEC; was NEGD. And it doesn't, either, since what happens in the HK factory has nothing to do with the Exile's alignment.
Nope, in the The New Essential Chronology it says that Malachor V is finally destroyed, that only happens in the LS ending.



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Old 04-29-2008, 05:49 PM   #52
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Malachor's destruction wasn't LS Exile-only. And NEGD said it first.

And even if it were, Mr Chee's word is of a higher canon, whether anyone likes it or not.


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Old 04-29-2008, 06:32 PM   #53
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Thumbs down

Words aren't canon, works are canon. At this point, you're simply making things up to "support" your own argument.


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Old 04-29-2008, 06:35 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by JCarter426
Malachor's destruction wasn't LS Exile-only.
Pretty sure it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JCarter426
And NEGD said it first.
NEC was released before NEGD.



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Old 04-29-2008, 06:37 PM   #55
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Smiley face fight.


"There is something going on in time and space, and beyond time and space, which, whether we like it or not, spells duty." -Winston Churchill

"For of all sad words of tongue or pen, The saddest are these: 'It might have been!'" -John Whittier

"Apathy is death." -Kreia
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Old 04-29-2008, 06:51 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TKA-001
Words aren't canon, works are canon.
Mr Chee decides which works are canon. Thus his word is of a higher level of canon, whether you like it or not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miles Edgeworth
Pretty sure it is.
Nope. Whether Malachor was destroyed depended on HK-47's decision in the factory, not the Exile's alignment.

Quote:
NEC was released before NEGD.
Whoops, my bad.


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Old 04-29-2008, 07:04 PM   #57
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"No. We've avoided anything concrete about the canon ending. The only reason why we decided on a canon gender for the Revan and the exile was out of editorial necessity." --Leland Chee
He says the reason they had a canon ending was out of editorial necessity. That means that for that reason, that's what they decided on for canon. Which means that it's canon.

Quote:
Nope. Whether Malachor was destroyed depended on HK-47's decision in the factory, not the Exile's alignment.
That is, it would have depended on that if the factory stuff actually happened.


"There is something going on in time and space, and beyond time and space, which, whether we like it or not, spells duty." -Winston Churchill

"For of all sad words of tongue or pen, The saddest are these: 'It might have been!'" -John Whittier

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Old 04-29-2008, 07:16 PM   #58
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The HK Factory is not canon.
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Old 04-29-2008, 07:20 PM   #59
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Actually the NEGD retcons the factory back, but that's not relevant to the context of the game.


"There is something going on in time and space, and beyond time and space, which, whether we like it or not, spells duty." -Winston Churchill

"For of all sad words of tongue or pen, The saddest are these: 'It might have been!'" -John Whittier

"Apathy is death." -Kreia
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Old 04-30-2008, 11:48 AM   #60
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...Actually it is realistic, since by your logic, there is only one point of view and Saddam Hussien's supporters all are evil and know it (or idoits/crazy). That is simply not true. Many good people think that causes like Hussien's are good ones. You will be hard-pressed to find many people who seriously think they are working for an evil cause and are alright with that, even the greedy ones have a problem with it.
Well, I didn't want to use Hitler, because of fear of invoking Godwin's Law. You're right, but I wanted to make a point about the fact that people in RL may not wish to worship such a dictator.

What Revan did (falling to the DS, taking over the Republic, using the MSG to kill off Republic troops and convert Jedi to DS) is objectively evil by George Lucas' POV, and Revan knows it. He may be justified in what he has done, but it is still evil, and Evil is Evil. But Revan still have fans and support for what he has done. This may be because the player is Revan...or it may be because of other factors, such as the True Sith.

People can come up with any sort of viewpoint to justify their actions. And in real life, ethical relativism might be useful. But this is Star Wars. Ethical relativism is just plain wrong in the universe of George Lucas. There is a Good. There is an Evil.


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Old 04-30-2008, 12:46 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by TKA-001
He says the reason they had a canon ending was out of editorial necessity. That means that for that reason, that's what they decided on for canon. Which means that it's canon.
No, he said that they chose a canonical gender for the Exile out of editorial necessity, but decided not to do so with the ending.


Quote:
That is, it would have depended on that if the factory stuff actually happened.
As you said, the factory stuff did happen, and it has nothing to do with the Exile's alignment, even if it would have if it had made it into the final version of the game (which it didn't then, either).


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Old 04-30-2008, 02:27 PM   #62
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How does the word "heroine" not mean anything about alignment?


"There is something going on in time and space, and beyond time and space, which, whether we like it or not, spells duty." -Winston Churchill

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Old 04-30-2008, 03:44 PM   #63
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I agree with TKA-001,

A "heroine" is the female version of a "hero", think about it you wouldn't call Palpatine a hero would you?

Hero = Good
Villain = Evil


"Savior, conqueror, hero, villain. You are all things, Revan… and yet you are nothing. In the end, you belong to neither the light nor the darkness. You will forever stand alone."
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Old 04-30-2008, 03:55 PM   #64
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Again, the Exile was a heroine during the Mandalorian Wars. And no matter what NEC or NEGD says about the Exile's alignment, it isn't canon.


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Old 04-30-2008, 04:57 PM   #65
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Again, the Exile was a heroine during the Mandalorian Wars.
At this point, you're just splitting hairs. It's a fact that while it does not precisely state that the Exile is light-sided, that is what the sentence means.

Quote:
And no matter what NEC or NEGD says about the Exile's alignment, it isn't canon.
I'd like you to name a single canonical source that contradicts the NEGD statements (let alone overrules them).


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Old 04-30-2008, 05:12 PM   #66
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How does the word "heroine" not mean anything about alignment?
Heroine: the principal female character in a literary or dramatic work
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/heroine

You can be a prinicipal character without being a LS Jedi, you know?

That being said, in every single LF's work, if you have a choice, the game's canon ending is that of Light-Side. So, in the end, Exile's canon alignment is LS. But as long as you can choose your alignment in the KOTOR series for Exile and Revan, canon can be safely disregarded for how you would like to RP.


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"The Cambodian government has established many exciting-sounding 're-education camps' where both intellectuals and everyday citizens can be sent at any time," Day said. Well, we at Barnes & Noble have always supported re-education in America, and we intend to extend this policy to our new customers." For every hardcover book sold, Barnes & Noble will donate a dollar to the Cambodian government to help re-educate local children.
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Old 04-30-2008, 07:58 PM   #67
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Well, that's obvious, but how a person wants to play the game isn't what the discussion was about.


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Old 04-30-2008, 08:09 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by TKA-001
It's a fact that while it does not precisely state that the Exile is light-sided, that is what the sentence means.
Says you, maybe. If the statement is ambiguous, then how is it even relevant to anything? You can't take any meaning from it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentScope001
That being said, in every single LF's work, if you have a choice, the game's canon ending is that of Light-Side. So, in the end, Exile's canon alignment is LS. But as long as you can choose your alignment in the KOTOR series for Exile and Revan, canon can be safely disregarded for how you would like to RP.
The same applied for the PC's gender...before the Exile. Just because that's the way it's always been, doesn't mean it's always going to be that way.

And the Essential Guides have made plenty of statements that were overridden in the past. This is but one of them.


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Old 04-30-2008, 08:34 PM   #69
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Says you, maybe.
Wrong. Says common sense and basic interpretation skills.


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Old 05-01-2008, 01:13 AM   #70
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^ Tone it down a little, guys. THis is starting to become a flame war, and no one wants this thread locked.

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Old 05-01-2008, 01:15 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JCarter426
"No. We've avoided anything concrete about the canon ending. The only reason why we decided on a canon gender for the Revan and the exile was out of editorial necessity." --Leland Chee, here
Uh? This proves my statement.

You can feel free to bug Prime about it further (as Prime is my original source on this topic, though I have lost his link to said info to time the EU Forum might be a good place to search for this topic) but there was a blanket statement made by LL that states the good/lightside endings (for games) are automatically considered canon.


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Old 05-01-2008, 02:52 PM   #72
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Uh? This proves my statement.

You can feel free to bug Prime about it further (as Prime is my original source on this topic, though I have lost his link to said info to time the EU Forum might be a good place to search for this topic) but there was a blanket statement made by LL that states the good/lightside endings (for games) are automatically considered canon.
Mr Chee's comment explicitly states the contrary. Neither ending of K2 can be considered canon at this point.


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Old 05-01-2008, 04:46 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thanatos9t
Hero = Good
Villain = Evil
Incorrect, the conception of the hero varies... Overview found here; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hero

And would some of you chill out, enough with the nerdrage already Its only a canon debate.

I'm still of the opinion that RH is correct; JC, I know alot of people who consider that the K2 ending is LS canon, and I'm sure RH or Prime, can find the statement of such...



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Old 05-01-2008, 04:51 PM   #74
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Oi...I've already provided a statement to the contrary. But even so, it doesn't matter. The DS ending is virtually identical, because the game isn't about good vs evil.


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Old 05-01-2008, 04:54 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JCarter426
Oi...I've already provided a statement to the contrary. But even so, it doesn't matter. The DS ending is virtually identical, because the game isn't about good vs evil.
*smacks head*



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Old 05-02-2008, 02:42 AM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JCarter426
Mr Chee's comment explicitly states the contrary. Neither ending of K2 can be considered canon at this point.
If they fixed a gender they have also fixed an ending... it is part of the process. That post smecks of placating the masses some by being ambiguous, it really isn't concrete.

Especially for K1. The LS ending is the 'canon' one (evidence is clear in the SW Databanks writeup on Malak);
Quote:
Revan, a Jedi captive, was stripped of all memories of a Sith past, and was turned into an agent of the Republic. Jedi observers closely watched Revan as the "reformed" Sith traced the path blazed during the initial search for the Star Forge. In this manner, agents of the Republic were able to find the station and confront Malak.

This confrontation erupted into a massive battle as Republic fleet forces arrived to attack the Star Forge. Endless streams of ships poured forth from the Star Forge, striking against the amassed warships of the Republic. The Sith Lord had grotesquely adapted the Rakatan device to draw energy directly from chained Jedi captives. He replenished his life force from the captives by draining theirs. Malak was nearly unstoppable, but the Republic emerged from that epic conflict victorious, as the Star Forge was eventually destroyed.
Now TSL's ending was left more similar to assist in making a sequel... as it is not an easy thing to pull off following a game with such a distinctive set of endings that K1 had, as Obsidian found out, hence TSL was constructed the way it was.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JCarter426
because the game isn't about good vs evil.
Darth Nihilus, devourer of worlds, is a great evil and must be stopped... check!
Darth Sion serves Kreia and is a corrupting influence on the Force with his immortality and is destroyed... check!
Darth Traya/Kreia, hates the Force and wishes it destroyed and uses the Exile to become the 'tool' of its destruction, Kreia is defeated... check!

Sounds like "evil" to me.

The Exile, no matter what path actually chosen, destroys these evils... hence 'good' wins the day and the galaxy continues on.

While I admit the story is more subtle than K1's was, it is still a good vs. evil story.

Can you please point out the exact specifics of the not good and evil story points (the main story only, remember)?


"Beware the form-fitting black armor-clad Drow hottie with twin Mineral II Greensteel Khopeshes!"
"Liella d'Orien says, '"You're the fool, Devil. -- Witness the power of this fully ARMED and OPERATIONAL Titan!"'"
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Old 05-02-2008, 03:54 PM   #77
Totenkopf
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But if evil destroys evil for clearly selfish reasons, is that really "good"? Especially when you can't say what the intentions of a DS Exile will end up being anyway.

note: I'm NOT arguing GvE or LvC here.


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

How would you like to own a little bit of my foot in your ass.---Red Foreman
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Old 05-02-2008, 07:18 PM   #78
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Before and after these discussions I don't see any way to get around TSL being about good and evil, like all Star Wars stories seem to be.

Even if you say it's about "making a choice", that choice is about being good or evil.
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Old 05-02-2008, 08:21 PM   #79
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The the choice doesn't matter, because it ends the same either way because--

I give up.


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Old 05-02-2008, 09:55 PM   #80
SilentScope001
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Quote:
The the choice doesn't matter
The Choice does matter. Remember, if the Exile turns DS, you get the cutscene: "Ascending the Dark Throne", implying, of course, the Exile takes over the Sith Order.

It is a story about Good Versus Evil, yes, it has to be. But, that doesn't mean a person can be an moral relativist. They can. They'll just be shunned.


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