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Old 05-23-2008, 03:10 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mur'phon
They shouldn't, though I don't see how "they"(we?) are doing it by admitting that bad things happens, and try to awoid said bad things happening.
Is this analogous to a parent giving a toddler anything he or she wants to avoid a temper tantrum?

Yes, children to do throw temper tantrums, but the adult has a choice about how to respond (I was always a big fan of time-outs).

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Originally Posted by mur'phon
Just because I feel like burning a few bibles one day dosen't mean I'll do it infront of a bunch of pious christians. Not because I think that they have a reason to attack me, but because I know they most likely will. Hope that helps.
And would their response be justified or unjustified (rationally speaking. Remember we're talking about a book here).

Quote:
Originally Posted by mur'phon
If they seemed likely to kill someone over it, yes I would care.
So when buddhist protest about Tibet, you don't care because you know that they won't kill anyone. But when the muslims protest about a book getting shot, you do care because someone might die. Doesn't seem that buddhists have much incentive to be peaceful does it?

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Originally Posted by mur'phon
Yes, though I would try to prevent people from getting killed by "retaliation" and see what preventive measures could be taken, and try to get some politicans to do something with said sugestions (or better ones).
Forgive me I doubt your sincerity.

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Originally Posted by mur'phon
Yes
Fair enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mimartin
...but not a stoning offense.
That's awesome! I'm totally borrowing that line.

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Originally Posted by mimartin
Just so we are clear, I am not upset with him shooting a book. I am upset that his actions could place his fellow country men and women and our allies at risk.
And I am upset that we are validating this way of thinking by buying into the idea that he did something wrong and needs to be punished (the rationale for this is can still be found in the latter half of post #48).

Quote:
Originally Posted by mimartin
Like muríphon wrote, if I felt you were going to kill them over you defaced Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, then sure I would be just as upset and may even take action. Not only to protect the person that defaced your book, but to protect you from your actions.
Okay. So all Pastafarians have to do to be taken seriously is threaten harm to those that don't respect their beliefs? Got it.

PS: I never said "kill" I said "declare outrage". Interesting that both you and mur'phon conflated that with murder within the analogy of islam. Hmmm...

Last edited by Achilles; 05-23-2008 at 03:30 PM.
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Old 05-23-2008, 03:59 PM   #82
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Ah...irrational "rationality". Unfortunately for some people, we don't live in a robotic "Vulcan" type of world. In reality, we live in a world frought with emotions. It's all nice and fine to say "why should a rational person find such-n-such offensive", but such an attitude will serve you poorly in dealing with others who don't share your values about what is permissible and what is not and inevitably lead one to irrationally commit a series of faux paus b/c of their own insensitivity to others who don't share their "enlightened outlook". This has gone beyond merely what is "right" or "wrong" and into the realm of crisis management where most decisions are aimed at defusing a problem before it escalates. In a vacuum, I'd say "big deal, it's just paper", sadly it's not a vacuum.


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Old 05-23-2008, 04:35 PM   #83
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To jump on the original topic, I think his punishment has gone far enough, maybe redeploy him to some non-Muslim location or something just to get him out of there.

But has for "harsher punishment", the guy shot a book, with words in it that happen to be printed the same as the Qur'an. Yeah, the thing is scared to Muslims, but get a grip, it's just a copy of it.


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Old 05-23-2008, 04:59 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Web Rider
.....maybe redeploy him to some non-Muslim location or something just to get him out of there.

I think that's been the traditional MO and agree that there's not much need to go beyond that. The radical Muslims need to understand that we won't allow ourselves to be straitjacketed by their concepts of sharia.


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Old 05-23-2008, 05:40 PM   #85
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Quote:
Is this analogous to a parent giving a toddler anything he or she wants to avoid a temper tantrum?
I think it fits poorly, It's highly unlikely that a child would kill anyone, or even causing much damage is when throwing a tantrum.

Quote:
And would their response be justified or unjustified
Unjustified

Quote:
So when buddhist protest about Tibet, you don't care because you know that they won't kill anyone.
I care because they are being opressed, and respect them, and are more likely to do something to aid them because they are non-violent.

Quote:
But when the muslims protest about a book getting shot, you do care because someone might die.
Yes

Quote:
Doesn't seem that buddhists have much incentive to be peaceful does it?
They have, for what it's worth I am more likely to do something to help them now than if they turned violent.

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Forgive me I doubt your sincerity.
I forgive thee my son

Quote:
PS: I never said "kill" I said "declare outrage". Interesting that both you and mur'phon conflated that with murder within the analogy of islam. Hmmm...
Why?


Checking out seems not to do much.
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Old 05-23-2008, 05:58 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mur'phon
I think it fits poorly, It's highly unlikely that a child would kill anyone, or even causing much damage is when throwing a tantrum.
It's not a question of damage. It's a question of controlling the agenda. If it was a question of damage, then I would have picked a different analogy.

We aren't controlling the dynamic, we are reacting to it. Conversely, by choosing to react, we are validating the behavior and giving them control. Therefore the child learns that throwing a tantrum is an effective means to get what he or she wants. This is our foreign policy with regards to islam.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mur'phon
Unjustified
Okay. Then I'll state that any call to violence regarding the incident with the book-shooting would be unjustified and I hope that you would continue to agree with me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mur'phon
I care because they are being opressed, and respect them, and are more likely to do something to aid them because they are non-violent.
Yet we don't have a thread on buddhism or Tibet (we have several on islam and Iraq).

PS: Feel free to point out my hypocrisy here. I am well aware that it exists.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mur'phon
Why?
Why is that interesting? Because it would seem that you both automatically associate "outrage" with "killing" when the point of reference islam. I doubt the same associate exists for other religions. I think that says a lot about what we all acknowledge but are hesitant to say about our peaceful friends in the East.
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Old 05-24-2008, 04:37 AM   #87
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We aren't controlling the dynamic, we are reacting to it. Conversely, by choosing to react, we are validating the behavior and giving them control. Therefore the child learns that throwing a tantrum is an effective means to get what he or she wants. This is our foreign policy with regards to islam.
I'm aware of that, and it's an unfortunate consequence. However, if our goal is to "export" our culture (you, know the whole "freeing" thing Bush was talking about), I think it's going to be a lot easier (and far less bloddy) if we don't provoke them needlessly. It's far easier for islamic leaders to resist democratising when they can label the whole thing as a creation of the evil west.

Quote:
Then I'll state that any call to violence regarding the incident with the book-shooting would be unjustified and I hope that you would continue to agree with me.
I do.

Quote:
I think that says a lot about what we all acknowledge but are hesitant to say about our peaceful friends in the East.
That a few tend to do violent things in the name of their religion, and a lot of people supports them? Actually, that fits two group of friends in the East.


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Old 05-24-2008, 05:09 AM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mur'phon View Post
I'm aware of that, and it's an unfortunate consequence. However, if our goal is to "export" our culture (you, know the whole "freeing" thing Bush was talking about), I think it's going to be a lot easier (and far less bloddy) if we don't provoke them needlessly. It's far easier for islamic leaders to resist democratising when they can label the whole thing as a creation of the evil west.
My opinion on this is outside the scope of this thread. Suffice it to say that I don't think "exporting our culture" should be a concern either.

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Originally Posted by mur'phon View Post
That a few tend to do violent things in the name of their religion, and a lot of people supports them? Actually, that fits two group of friends in the East.


I'm glad we've come to some semblance of common ground, however I still maintain that he should not have been punished. Transferred maybe. If his friends wanted to give him a proper beat-down for being a dumb***, then that's another story.
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Old 05-24-2008, 09:07 AM   #89
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Ok, so what I'm seeing is that the rest of the world should just do whatever the US wants because we have the ability to blow big chunks out of the countries that offend us. I mean that appears to be the mindset of people who want more punishment for this man. Better not tick off the US and capitulate to their rage every time. hehe I'm good with that. Don't think the rest of the world would be happy witht hat though.

No offense intended, I'm just pointing out that even though it may offend a group, that isn't a reason to have greater punishment heaped upon this guy. He appologized. They said it wasn't good enough. Some on here want to turn this book into some higher level than it really is. It is an object. In fact it is a rather common object. besides no matter what he shoots at, someone will get mad(except apparently the targets his job entails).
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Old 05-24-2008, 10:22 AM   #90
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Like I wrote earlier in this thread, I donít believe the soldier should be punished for destroying his own property. I donít believe the soldier should be punished for destroying or disrespecting another cultures holy book.

The person in question is a United States soldier, who has the job assignment of a sniper, I would hope someone in his position had a little more brains, responsibility and judgment then to do something so irresponsible and juvenile. I donít really want him punished, I want his job assignment changed because he does not have the skills necessary to be a sniper in the United States military. His lack of judgment put his fellow soldiers in greater jeopardy and that deserves his reassignment or dismissal. Not to appease some radicals, but to preserve American Military lives.

If you want to make untrue blanket statements then you could say that anyone that does want this soldier dismissed, punished or reassign does not care about the lives of the soldiers on the ground in Iraq and Afghanistan. That is not true, but it is just as silly as saying that American can do anything they want because we have the bigger guns. That is that attitude the leader of this country has had for the last 7 years and it is the reason we are in this mess today.


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Old 05-24-2008, 02:56 PM   #91
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I have only seen that the "natives" want him to be more severly punished, but in what manner? Should we alter the UCMJ everytime a foreign country's citizens don't like what's laid out w/in the system? I almost wonder if this guy didn't secretly want to be ejected from that theatre and used a quran for that reason (not that he'd ever admit that publically). And Bush's problem isn't that he's been unafraid to use American muscle, but rather that he's been somewhat incompetent in the way it's been done.


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Old 05-24-2008, 03:41 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Totenkopf
I have only seen that the "natives" want him to be more severly punished, but in what manner?
That is true. They can't really do anything about it though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mimartin
The person in question is a United States soldier, who has the job assignment of a sniper, I would hope someone in his position had a little more brains, responsibility and judgment then to do something so irresponsible and juvenile. I don’t really want him punished, I want his job assignment changed because he does not have the skills necessary to be a sniper in the United States military.
As far as I know, that is all that is really going to happen. That is probably all that they can do to this soldier too. I know that it is just a book, but we are trying to build up a nation, and try to get it on it's feet, and to ME, this act doesn't really help that cause.

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Old 05-24-2008, 04:13 PM   #93
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The person in question is a United States soldier, who has the job assignment of a sniper, I would hope someone in his position had a little more brains, responsibility and judgment then to do something so irresponsible and juvenile. I donít really want him punished, I want his job assignment changed because he does not have the skills necessary to be a sniper in the United States military. His lack of judgment put his fellow soldiers in greater jeopardy and that deserves his reassignment or dismissal. Not to appease some radicals, but to preserve American Military lives.
I agree with this sentiment. The crime is relatively minor, but as a demonstration of his competence it shows rather poor.


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Old 05-24-2008, 05:46 PM   #94
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His poor decision to use such a book in theatre as a target does NOT prove he's lacking skill in his MOS, rather that he's used questionable judgement in this one particular instance. More likely, he's not cut out to be a diplomat at foggybottom.


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

How would you like to own a little bit of my foot in your ass.---Red Foreman
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Old 05-24-2008, 06:07 PM   #95
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His poor decision to use such a book in theatre as a target does NOT prove he's lacking skill in his MOS, rather that he's used questionable judgement in this one particular instance. More likely, he's not cut out to be a diplomat at foggybottom.
I didn't say he has poor skills, but to use a high power rifle, and essentially waste taxpayer money(bullets), to entertain himself by blowing up a Qur'an in the middle of a primarily Muslim location(the Middle East), brings into question what other things he might shoot at when he's bored.

Hey, people get bored, this is true, you wanna waste the money we pay you to work? Find a better hobby, go play soccer with some Iraqi kids.


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Old 05-24-2008, 06:17 PM   #96
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There is so much more to being a sniper than just knowing how to shoot straight. A sniper has to use good judgment 100% of the time. His Military Occupational Specialty is in question, because his judgment has proven to be questionable.


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Old 05-24-2008, 09:31 PM   #97
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Meh, I'd rather him sit there shooting at books than sit there shooting at people. Even the enemy. Because if he's so bored he needs to shoot books for entertainment, that means there's not enough justification for him to sit there shooting people. That means our troops can come home sooner.
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Old 05-24-2008, 10:47 PM   #98
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Meh, I'd rather him sit there shooting at books than sit there shooting at people. Even the enemy. Because if he's so bored he needs to shoot books for entertainment, that means there's not enough justification for him to sit there shooting people. That means our troops can come home sooner.
I don't really care if he shoots books, Sue Grafton fans aren't whose hearts and minds we're trying win. Though I'd warn against pissing off the Oprah book-club.


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Old 05-25-2008, 01:28 PM   #99
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No, his competence is not in question as a sniper. Since there is no other recorded incidence of this guy going off and popping off civilians or shooting out store windows, etc.., then it's overblown to say he's incompetent in his MOS. Since the book was shot on a range and not "in the field", the only thing in question is why he would let it be somehow known that he shot a quran in Iraq. Maybe he misses his mommy.


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

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And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

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Old 05-25-2008, 01:57 PM   #100
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Maybe he just has contempt for the Muslims? I wouldn't blame him - they seem like a whole horde of hypocrites. They call themselves a religion of peace while members are blowing up the sides of streets doing their best to kill American soldiers. Let's not mention such gems of lines as "Kill the enemy where you find him" where, regardless of context, is obviously not exactly advocating turning the other cheek.
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Old 05-25-2008, 02:04 PM   #101
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Right, because all Muslims are fanatical psychopaths with zero regard for human life!

Way to stereotype.




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Old 05-25-2008, 02:14 PM   #102
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So you are saying that a soldier that knowing put other soldiers at risk is not violating his MOS? Are you also saying you cannot use personal data for someone to determine if they have the ability to make sound decisions? So what someone do in their personal life has no barring on their job or their ability to do that job?

I’ll just say with the decision making ability he displayed in shooting the Quran and like you said then letting it get out that he shot the Quran, I do not want him looking through a scope at me. I might be answering a call on my cell phone and he decides I’m pulling out a gun. Really wouldn’t feel safe if I was hold a Quran.


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Old 05-25-2008, 02:20 PM   #103
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Rogue Nine, their nature doesn't matter. Their book says "Kill the enemy." They call themselves a religion of peace. They are mutually exclusive. Killing the enemy is not peaceful.

Why does it matter that he's shooting the Qur'an, Mimartin? I mean, aside from the fact that the overly sensitive Muslims might get a sniffle? I find it highly unlikely this is actually going to make a difference. Do you REALLY think the highly violent ones really care what we do to their Holy Book? They're doing their best to kill us anyway. What're they going to do, kill us harder?
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Old 05-25-2008, 02:23 PM   #104
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The Bible also advocates killing.




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Old 05-25-2008, 02:25 PM   #105
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I don't think anyone's ever made a mantra out of us being a religion of peace. Given that Jesus Christ will return not to bring peace, but a sword.
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Old 05-25-2008, 02:29 PM   #106
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Your statement is akin to someone saying that all Christians are like those wackos at Westboro. I don't think one particular fundamentalist sect should be representative of the religion as a whole.




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Old 05-25-2008, 02:32 PM   #107
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How so? All I'm saying is that what the Muslims are saying is contradicted by their own Holy Book.
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Old 05-25-2008, 02:43 PM   #108
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How so? All I'm saying is that what the Muslims are saying is contradicted by their own Holy Book.
Many christians and christian sects claim that Christianity is a religion of peace, or a peaceful religion. Honestly I think half the things written about Jesus in the Bible are a load that somebody 300 years later thought would be cool of him to be.

Replace "Muslims" with "Christians" and all your statements still apply.


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Old 05-25-2008, 02:51 PM   #109
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The keyword in there is 'You think'.

Also, find me a quote where someone says that Christianity is a 'Religion of Peace'.
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Old 05-25-2008, 03:23 PM   #110
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I'm pretty sure I can find a dozen statements by the last five Popes, at least, claiming the peaceful nature of Christ's message.

Corinthian, I find your generalisations about Christianity insulting, and your attitude hardly fits with the letters you appear to have taken for your name. I.13 springs to mind as an excerpt you would do well to revise.



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Old 05-25-2008, 03:33 PM   #111
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I'm Protestant. What Popes say doesn't matter to me.

Darth, I really frankly don't care what you find insulting about what I say. I'm just speaking the truth - I take it you've never read the Book of Revelation?

And in any case, what Christianity does or does not state doesn't matter. The fact remains that the Muslim standby of it being a 'Religion of Peace' is not backed up by the Qur'an.
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Old 05-25-2008, 03:38 PM   #112
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So you are saying that a soldier that knowing put other soldiers at risk is not violating his MOS? Are you also saying you cannot use personal data for someone to determine if they have the ability to make sound decisions? So what someone do in their personal life has no barring on their job or their ability to do that job?

Iíll just say with the decision making ability he displayed in shooting the Quran and like you said then letting it get out that he shot the Quran, I do not want him looking through a scope at me. I might be answering a call on my cell phone and he decides Iím pulling out a gun. Really wouldnít feel safe if I was hold a Quran.
You're making a good argument for him not being perfect, but little else. How would you like it if people looked at you and took one incident in your life and dismissed you as utterrly unreliable and incompetent. You appear to be doing just that.


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Old 05-25-2008, 03:57 PM   #113
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I'm Protestant. What Popes say doesn't matter to me.
I'm not - it matters to me. Don't act as though your opinion is universal law.

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Darth, I really frankly don't care what you find insulting about what I say. I'm just speaking the truth - I take it you've never read the Book of Revelation?
From beginning to end.

I take it you've never read the Gospel of Matthew?
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And in any case, what Christianity does or does not state doesn't matter. The fact remains that the Muslim standby of it being a 'Religion of Peace' is not backed up by the Qur'an.
Have you read it? In Arabic? And the Hadith? And the commmentaries of the luminaries of each of the six major branches?

I thought not.



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Old 05-25-2008, 03:59 PM   #114
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What the hell does that have to do with anything? They have a line that says "KILL THE ENEMY WHERE YOU FIND THEM." THEY CLAIM TO BE A RELIGION OF PEACE. THAT IS AN OUTRIGHT LIE.
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Old 05-25-2008, 04:05 PM   #115
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Better luck next time.



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Old 05-25-2008, 04:05 PM   #116
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I'm just speaking the truth-
Now, that's just insulting in of itself. To blatantly insult another religion, and then go and proclaim your words as the truth? That's just ignorant, whether you want to admit it or not. Everyone has their own interpretation of the truth. Who are you to say what people should believe?

As for Muslims standing by the fact that Islam is a religion of peace, that's their belief, not yours. Perhaps they've found some solace in their religion, or maybe it has been the 'rock' of their life. You wouldn't know unless you have lived their lives.

I also have friends, devout Christians, no less, that believe that Christianity can do no wrong. I'll try to show them the facts, what has actually happened, but the final decision is theirs. How is that any different than the Muslims claiming their religion is one of piece?

I feel a bit better getting that off of my chest.
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Old 05-25-2008, 04:10 PM   #117
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I'm getting tired of this.

"Religion of Peace" or "Kill the Enemy". Which one is true? They are mutually exclusive.

Also, Insidious, what the hell are you talking about?
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Old 05-25-2008, 04:14 PM   #118
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You're making a good argument for him not being perfect, but little else. How would you like it if people looked at you and took one incident in your life and dismissed you as utterrly unreliable and incompetent. You appear to be doing just that.
I am not making the argument for perfection at all. You are the one saying I am making that argument. I am saying that a sniper MOS is to support his/her fellow troops on the ground. The sniper can be the difference between life and death for our service men and women. The sniper job is to protect our service peopleís lives through killing the enemy. The sniper MOS is not to put our troops in more unnecessary danger by doing something juvenilely stupid. If the sniper is so immature to do something that would cause a reaction in the Muslim community putting not only himself but also other Americans at risk, then he has no business being a sniper in the U.S. Army. Iím not saying throw him out of the service, Iím saying give him a job assignment where his decision making process can not put other soldiers in harms way.


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Old 05-25-2008, 04:16 PM   #119
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I'm getting tired of this.

"Religion of Peace" or "Kill the Enemy". Which one is true? They are mutually exclusive.

Also, Insidious, what the hell are you talking about?
This sounds like Doublethink. Perhaps you should try examining it from their point of view, instead of accusing Islam. Perhaps sustaining the Peace requires the killing of others? I ask you to look at this argument from the opposite point of view, consider their thoughts, and then respond.

Pertaining to the original topic, the Soldier should have not done that, but I have a feeling that it will be forgotten fairly soon.
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Old 05-25-2008, 04:21 PM   #120
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You think the Muslims are engaging in Doublethink? That...that makes a lot of sense, actually. Thanks, Litofsky, I never thought of it that way.
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