lfnetwork.com mark read register faq members calendar

Thread: Stealing: Physical Vs. Digital
Thread Tools Display Modes
Post a new thread. Add a reply to this thread. Indicate all threads in this forum as read. Subscribe to this forum. RSS feed: this forum RSS feed: all forums
Old 05-31-2008, 05:19 AM   #41
Ray Jones
[armleglegarmhead]
 
Ray Jones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: digital
Posts: 8,263
10 year veteran! LF Jester Helpful! Forum Veteran 
So, advertisement...

And why do you think do the advertisers get money from companies to propagate their creations, and why do the advertisers pay money to radio stations to air their product propaganda?

You might not pay for a song in a specific manner, but you pay one or another way for every song blown into the ether.

It gets more clearer in the case of pay tv etc, where you have almost no advertising, at least not during the movies, but pay plenty of bucks instead.


Ray Jones is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 05-31-2008, 05:31 AM   #42
Achilles
Dapper Chimp
 
Achilles's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 8,204
Helpful! Veteran Modder Forum Veteran 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Jones View Post
So, advertisement...

And why do you think do the advertisers get money from companies to propagate their creations, and why do the advertisers pay money to radio stations to air their product propaganda?
Advertisers pay money to radio stations so that they can advertise their company's products to consumers. Some percentage of listeners buy the product which bring revenue to the company which uses part of that revenue to pay for more advertising so that more consumers will buy their product. Hooray capitalism! What is your point?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Jones View Post
You might not pay for a song in a specific manner, but you pay one or another way for every song blown into the ether.
You really are reaching, my friend. But I'll humor you: What if my parents never buy any of the goods or services advertised on the radio? Their money goes to some other company which only advertises in newspapers (which now entitles me, as their son, to be able to steal newspapers, using the logic in the argument that you have presented). Not one of their dimes goes into the coffers of those companies that advertise on the radio. Am I now stealing when I record music off the radio?
Achilles is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 05-31-2008, 05:32 AM   #43
JCarter426
Senior Member
 
JCarter426's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Look to your left.
Posts: 1,640
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Jones View Post
And why do you think do the advertisers get money from companies to propagate their creations, and why do the advertisers pay money to radio stations to air their product propaganda?
Because they think listeners/viewers will hear/see their commercials and buy their products. But they can only hope that. Copying a song/TV show is different from copying a CD/video game. The original creators of the CD/video game get paid when their product sells. Creators of a song/TV show get paid when people listen to their song or watch their show, because that's the only way advertisers can know which songs/shows are popular, and where they should spend their money. See the difference? Creators of a song or TV show get paid even if their product is stolen. It's only the advertisers that lose out in that scenario.

Quote:
It gets more clearer in the case of pay tv etc, where you have almost no advertising, at least not during the movies, but pay plenty of bucks instead.
Don't know how it is where you are, but in the US, even cable/satellite have loads of commercials. They do this (I think) so that they don't have to charge insanely high monthly fees. Oh, wait a minute, they do charge insanely high monthly fees. So I guess they're just greedy.

But taking a scenario in which there are no commercials into account...

Hmm...well, that's a completely different situation altogether. Odds are you're going to pay those insanely high monthly fees even if you record your shows/movies (because you have to pay those fees in order to record them). But downloading a show/movie so that you don't have to pay those fees is another matter.


JCarter426 is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 05-31-2008, 05:45 AM   #44
Achilles
Dapper Chimp
 
Achilles's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 8,204
Helpful! Veteran Modder Forum Veteran 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JCarter426 View Post
Creators of a song or TV show get paid even if their product is stolen.
If that's the case, then why is there such a hubbub over downloading music? If all I want is one or two songs off an album and the argument is that the creator of a song is going to get paid even if their product is stolen, then I don't understand what the problem is.

Likewise, I should be able to download as many TV shows as I want also, correct?
Achilles is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 05-31-2008, 06:05 AM   #45
JCarter426
Senior Member
 
JCarter426's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Look to your left.
Posts: 1,640
Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles View Post
If that's the case, then why is there such a hubbub over downloading music? If all I want is one or two songs off an album and the argument is that the creator of a song is going to get paid even if their product is stolen, then I don't understand what the problem is.
Me neither. It might hurt CD sales, but does anyone buy a CD for just one song?

Downloading a whole album is another matter, of course (it's in the same category as downloading a video game, in my opinion).

Quote:
Likewise, I should be able to download as many TV shows as I want also, correct?
Same as above, but with DVD sales. Though DVDs are a tad different, since they come out months after the show airs (so depending on the situation, they might be completely irrelevant). Also, I'm fairly certain that the writers/actors/producers/other staff don't get a cent from DVD sales, so it's not really copyright violation either. So while it is stealing, in a sense, I don't see how it deprives anyone of anything.


JCarter426 is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 05-31-2008, 09:31 AM   #46
Ray Jones
[armleglegarmhead]
 
Ray Jones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: digital
Posts: 8,263
10 year veteran! LF Jester Helpful! Forum Veteran 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
What if my parents never buy any of the goods or services advertised on the radio?
Doesn't matter. The main thing about advertisement is that people are receiving it.

Quote:
Their money goes to some other company which only advertises in newspapers (which now entitles me, as their son, to be able to steal newspapers, using the logic in the argument that you have presented).
I can't see that kind of path in my logic.

Quote:
Not one of their dimes goes into the coffers of those companies that advertise on the radio. Am I now stealing when I record music off the radio?
No. You heard the advertisement, which is what the radio stations received their cheque for.


Ray Jones is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 05-31-2008, 10:42 AM   #47
EnderWiggin
Sine Amore Nihil Est Vita
 
EnderWiggin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 3,395
Forum Veteran LF Jester 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Jones View Post
Doesn't matter. The main thing about advertisement is that people are receiving it.

I can't see that kind of path in my logic.

No. You heard the advertisement, which is what the radio stations received their cheque for.
I disagree with the first point; if no one buys the product the advertiser will stop advertising there.
I disagree with the second point; that's exactly what your logic says to me.
I disagree with the third point; the radio stations aren't going to keep receiving checks if the consumers just listen and never buy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray
I've already tried to point out that you actually did pay for it. And since the radio station paid for it as well, you made a copy of legally obtained material.
So you seriously believe that because you listen ot a bit of advertising, you are entitled to steal the intellectual property of others?

Well let's take this to its logical conclusion. What happens after (we'll use Achilles' example) you record the 30 songs on the top 40 station that you like onto tapes? Are you going to keep listening to that station? No. That's the whole point of making the copy. What happens to that advertising now, huh?

_EW_


Wow. For once you and I agree, Achilles.



Hello, Pot? This is Kettle. You're black. ~ Prime

Yes, I hate you.

J7 - thanks for accepting me as part of the 'family.'
EnderWiggin is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 05-31-2008, 11:38 AM   #48
Ray Jones
[armleglegarmhead]
 
Ray Jones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: digital
Posts: 8,263
10 year veteran! LF Jester Helpful! Forum Veteran 
Well, I don't steal intellectual property when I record a song from radio, which I'm not gonna sell, distribute otherwise, nor do say that I made it. No copyright is violated.

And when someone forever stops to listen to radio just because you recorded a handful of songs, well, then he's an easy to entertain mind.


Ray Jones is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 05-31-2008, 03:47 PM   #49
Achilles
Dapper Chimp
 
Achilles's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 8,204
Helpful! Veteran Modder Forum Veteran 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JCarter426 View Post
Me neither. It might hurt CD sales, but does anyone buy a CD for just one song?
Nowadays? No, I highly doubt that they do. In the bad old days, yeah, that was kinda-sorta your only choice (you younglings probably can't wrap your head around the idea of life without mp3s or cable television )

Quote:
Originally Posted by JCarter426 View Post
Downloading a whole album is another matter, of course (it's in the same category as downloading a video game, in my opinion).
Forgive me, but I'm still seeing this is an "it either is or it isn't" type things. Downloading music is either stealing music or it isn't (obvious exception for when musicians give their music away).

Quote:
Originally Posted by JCarter426 View Post
Same as above, but with DVD sales. Though DVDs are a tad different, since they come out months after the show airs (so depending on the situation, they might be completely irrelevant). Also, I'm fairly certain that the writers/actors/producers/other staff don't get a cent from DVD sales, so it's not really copyright violation either. So while it is stealing, in a sense, I don't see how it deprives anyone of anything.
Were paying very much attention during the recent Writer's Guild strike, eh?

Yes, many players in the television industry are counting on "residuals" from DVD sales and are willing to strike for months on end for half a cent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Jones View Post
Doesn't matter. The main thing about advertisement is that people are receiving it.
Then how am I entitled to the music (in your model)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Jones View Post
I can't see that kind of path in my logic.
Sure. Your argument was that if my parents are paying money that somehow supports the music, then I am entitled to it. Exact same thing except I've replaced "music" with "newspapers". If the argument works in one set of conditions but not the other, then something is wrong with the argument.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Jones View Post
No. You heard the advertisement, which is what the radio stations received their cheque for.
Unless I am a consumer that will purchase the product advertised or part of the marketing apparatus that helps determine ratings, this doesn't matter. In the scenario I provided (preteen male), I was neither.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderWiggin View Post
Wow. For once you and I agree, Achilles.
No we don't

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Jones View Post
Well, I don't steal intellectual property when I record a song from radio, which I'm not gonna sell, distribute otherwise, nor do say that I made it. No copyright is violated.
Then I can download as much media as I like so long as I don't distribute it. Right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Jones View Post
And when someone forever stops to listen to radio just because you recorded a handful of songs, well, then he's an easy to entertain mind.
That may be, but a personal critique is not the foundation of a solid counterargument.
Achilles is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 05-31-2008, 04:12 PM   #50
JCarter426
Senior Member
 
JCarter426's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Look to your left.
Posts: 1,640
Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles View Post
Nowadays? No, I highly doubt that they do. In the bad old days, yeah, that was kinda-sorta your only choice (you younglings probably can't wrap your head around the idea of life without mp3s or cable television )
I don't have cable or an mp3. (Actually, I don't listen to music, so I wouldn't know if one would buy a CD for one song. ). I was going by the premise that no one would buy an entire season just for one episode...but I guess it's a little different.

Quote:
Forgive me, but I'm still seeing this is an "it either is or it isn't" type things. Downloading music is either stealing music or it isn't (obvious exception for when musicians give their music away).
Oh, yes it is stealing, no doubt there. But there's a slight difference: downloading or recording one song when you wouldn't buy the entire album does not. But if you would buy a CD just for one song, then everything just goes out the window. So I guess it depends on how well you can lie to yourself.

Quote:
Were paying very much attention during the recent Writer's Guild strike, eh?

Yes, many players in the television industry are counting on "residuals" from DVD sales and are willing to strike for months on end for half a cent.
Well, the writers gave up the residuals, did they not...or did they just settle for a lower rate? (I forget...I was just happy the strike was over ).

But in any case, yes, it is stealing, if you define stealing as taking what one did not pay for, rather than taking something from someone without paying for it.


JCarter426 is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 05-31-2008, 04:58 PM   #51
EnderWiggin
Sine Amore Nihil Est Vita
 
EnderWiggin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 3,395
Forum Veteran LF Jester 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles View Post
No we don't
I think you just don't want us to agree.
But we pretty much do

_EW_



Hello, Pot? This is Kettle. You're black. ~ Prime

Yes, I hate you.

J7 - thanks for accepting me as part of the 'family.'
EnderWiggin is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 05-31-2008, 05:14 PM   #52
Ray Jones
[armleglegarmhead]
 
Ray Jones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: digital
Posts: 8,263
10 year veteran! LF Jester Helpful! Forum Veteran 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Then how am I entitled to the music (in your model)?
Easy. Just reread my previous posts.

Quote:
Sure. Your argument was that if my parents are paying money that somehow supports the music, then I am entitled to it. Exact same thing except I've replaced "music" with "newspapers". If the argument works in one set of conditions but not the other, then something is wrong with the argument.
Don't try to twist my words. I said clearly the radio songs are paid through advertisement, and with tax money.

Quote:
Then I can download as much media as I like so long as I don't distribute it. Right?
Nope. Because you (A) download without the copyright holder's permission, and (B) the material has not been published with the copyright holder's permission at that download location.


Ray Jones is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 05-31-2008, 05:20 PM   #53
Achilles
Dapper Chimp
 
Achilles's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 8,204
Helpful! Veteran Modder Forum Veteran 
Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderWiggin View Post
I think you just don't want us to agree.
But we pretty much do
That's the sound of humor whizzing past you

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Jones View Post
Don't try to twist my words. I said clearly the radio songs are paid through advertisement, and with tax money.
First, as I have already pointed out, your assumption regarding taxes is incorrect. Taxes that go the FCC have nothing to do with the contents on an individual radio stations' playlist.

Second, if newspaper articles are paid for through advertisement (which they largely are), then I should be entitled those as well. It's your logic, sir.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Jones View Post
Nope. Because you (A) download without the copyright holder's permission, and (B) the material has not been published with the copyright holder's permission at that download location.
I used to record it without the copyright holders permission too. I don't see how that's different.
Achilles is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 05-31-2008, 05:22 PM   #54
EnderWiggin
Sine Amore Nihil Est Vita
 
EnderWiggin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 3,395
Forum Veteran LF Jester 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles View Post
That's the sound of humor whizzing past you


Yeah, well. I guess that's just how today is.

_EW_



Hello, Pot? This is Kettle. You're black. ~ Prime

Yes, I hate you.

J7 - thanks for accepting me as part of the 'family.'
EnderWiggin is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 05-31-2008, 06:56 PM   #55
Jae Onasi
Antiquis temporibus, nati tibi similes in rupibus ventosissimis exponebantur ad necem
 
Jae Onasi's Avatar
 
Status: Super Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 10,916
Current Game: Guild Wars 2, VtMB, TOR
Alderaan News Holopics contributor Helpful! LucasCast staff Veteran Fan Fic Author 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles View Post
First, as I have already pointed out, your assumption regarding taxes is incorrect. Taxes that go the FCC have nothing to do with the contents on an individual radio stations' playlist.
Radio in Germany might receive tax support, however.

US radio, except for public service type programs like NOAA weather radio, does not usually receive any kind of tax/gov't support, Ray.


From MST3K's spoof of "Hercules Unchained"--heard as Roman medic soldiers carry off an unconscious Greek Hercules on a 1950's Army green canvas stretcher: "Hi, we're IX-I-I. Did somebody dial IX-I-I?"

Read The Adventures of Jolee Bindo and see the amazing Peep Surgery
Story WIP: The Dragonfighters
My blog: Confessions of a Geeky Mom--Latest post: Security Alerts!
Love Star Trek AND gaming? Check out Lotus Fleet.

Jae Onasi is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 05-31-2008, 07:16 PM   #56
Achilles
Dapper Chimp
 
Achilles's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 8,204
Helpful! Veteran Modder Forum Veteran 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi View Post
Radio in Germany might receive tax support, however.
Indeed, however I tried to point out that's not the case here in post #39.
Achilles is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 05-31-2008, 09:33 PM   #57
Ray Jones
[armleglegarmhead]
 
Ray Jones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: digital
Posts: 8,263
10 year veteran! LF Jester Helpful! Forum Veteran 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
First, as I have already pointed out, your assumption regarding taxes is incorrect. Taxes that go the FCC have nothing to do with the contents on an individual radio stations' playlist.
At least here in Germany, federal radiostations are almost completely funded by tax money. Ergo, so are the songs they play.

Quote:
Second, if newspaper articles are paid for through advertisement (which they largely are), then I should be entitled those as well. It's your logic, sir.
Ah, now I understand. Yes. If you pay for it (since you have to buy it) you can make a copy of the newspaper for your own personal use.

Quote:
I used to record it without the copyright holders permission too. I don't see how that's different.
The copyright holder made it available to public by selling the right to air it via radio. Again, at least here in Germany, and as long as you are not skirting any copy protection mechanisms, you are allowed to make a private copy of what you legally obtained, for your own personal use.


Ray Jones is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 05-31-2008, 09:47 PM   #58
Achilles
Dapper Chimp
 
Achilles's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 8,204
Helpful! Veteran Modder Forum Veteran 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Jones View Post
At least here in Germany, federal radiostations are almost completely funded by tax money. Ergo, so are the songs they play.
Okay, that's great for Germany but since all the RIAA lawsuits that I know about are happening here in the U.S. I think we should play with the U.S. way of doing things in mind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Jones View Post
Ah, now I understand. Yes. If you pay for it (since you have to buy it) you can make a copy of the newspaper for your own personal use.
Where did I mention anything about purchasing the newspaper? And you accuse me of twisting words?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Jones View Post
The copyright holder made it available to public by selling the right to air it via radio.
The copyright holder made it available for public recording for private use?
Achilles is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 06-01-2008, 02:19 AM   #59
Gurges-Ahter
Tyler Durden
 
Gurges-Ahter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Parker, TX
Posts: 957
I think Achilles is right here. I wasn't old enough to be aware of it, but there was some hubbub generated back in the day when VCRs became popular because of the ability to tape television shows or movies without directly paying for them. An act was passed that is the same act being applied to MP3 downloaders today, amended for digital age media, that specifically stated it is illegal to download and distribute digital media. That being said, every case thus far against downloaders has been one of getting caught for distribution, not just for downloading. Because of that I've always disabled sharing of my files on P2P networks. Torrents are different in how they work, and currently end-user dloaders are not "at risk" for breaking the law.

So I think Achilles is right in comparing this to taping from the TV or radio - the act of doing so alone isn't stealing, but the distribution of that probably is wrong on some level. I believe this was created to prevent people from selling downloaded media.


Gurges-Ahter is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 06-01-2008, 07:41 AM   #60
Ray Jones
[armleglegarmhead]
 
Ray Jones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: digital
Posts: 8,263
10 year veteran! LF Jester Helpful! Forum Veteran 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Where did I mention anything about purchasing the newspaper?
You asked whether it would be okay to copy articles in a newspaper, because they are mostly funded through advertisements as well. Hence my answer, hence "if you pay for it", since, unlike to tuning into a radio programme, you actually have to pay to get a newspaper.

Quote:
The copyright holder made it available for public recording for private use?
In analogy to publishing/selling a song on a CD or in a download portal, yes. Although music usually is not published for "recording for private use".


Ray Jones is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 06-01-2008, 08:01 AM   #61
Achilles
Dapper Chimp
 
Achilles's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 8,204
Helpful! Veteran Modder Forum Veteran 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Jones View Post
You asked whether it would be okay to copy articles in a newspaper, because they are mostly funded through advertisements as well.
No, my question was regarding the newspapers themselves, not the articles (I thought that would have been clear given the earlier exchange, however I apologize for not being more concise).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Jones View Post
In analogy to publishing/selling a song on a CD or in a download portal, yes. Although music usually is not published for "recording for private use".
No analogy please. With regards to the context provided.

The copyright holder made it available to the radio station so that the listener could make a recording for their private use? Yes or no?
Achilles is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 06-01-2008, 09:55 AM   #62
Ray Jones
[armleglegarmhead]
 
Ray Jones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: digital
Posts: 8,263
10 year veteran! LF Jester Helpful! Forum Veteran 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles View Post
No, my question was regarding the newspapers themselves, not the articles (I thought that would have been clear given the earlier exchange, however I apologize for not being more concise).
Aperlogy essapted.

However. You seem to put the process of making a legal *copy* of a product equal to obtaining the product *itself*, then.

The recorded song is already a copy of a legally purchased product, whereas the newspaper you take from the shelf is the original, which you still have to pay. So when you take the newspaper itself, without paying for it, you're neither making a copy, nor not stealing it.


Quote:
The copyright holder made it available to the radio station so that the listener could make a recording for their private use? Yes or no?
Of course not, no.

Hm.

In the first place I'd make a song available to the radio station so they'd pass me a dollar or two for it, what would you think. Beside that, I'd hope people would like the song they hear on the radio, go to the record store and buy the song, if not even the whole album or other related material like the live DVD.

Yes, I'd push my stuff to the stations so I could actually sell it.


Ray Jones is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 06-01-2008, 01:09 PM   #63
Achilles
Dapper Chimp
 
Achilles's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 8,204
Helpful! Veteran Modder Forum Veteran 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Jones View Post
However. You seem to put the process of making a legal *copy* of a product equal to obtaining the product *itself*, then.
"Legal" copy is a qualifier that you're adding, not me. If I have three mp3s (one ripped from a cd that I've purchased, one that I've downloaded from a pay site, and one that I've obtained via some other means), how do I designate one a "copy" and another "the product"? You can't because "the copy" is "the product".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Jones View Post
The recorded song is already a copy of a legally purchased product, whereas the newspaper you take from the shelf is the original, which you still have to pay. So when you take the newspaper itself, without paying for it, you're neither making a copy, nor not stealing it.
You are arbitrarily adding a whole lot of qualifiers that have nothing to do with the discussion. I hope that it's an honest mistake and not a dishonest attempt to derail the dialog.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Jones View Post
Of course not, no.
Okay. Since you are acknowledging that music obtained this way is outside the boundaries of fair use, I don't see how you can deny that it's stealing any longer. Thanks.
Achilles is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 06-01-2008, 01:52 PM   #64
EnderWiggin
Sine Amore Nihil Est Vita
 
EnderWiggin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 3,395
Forum Veteran LF Jester 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gurges-Ahter View Post

So I think Achilles is right in comparing this to taping from the TV or radio - the act of doing so alone isn't stealing, but the distribution of that probably is wrong on some level. I believe this was created to prevent people from selling downloaded media.


I don't understand. The way I read this dialog, Achilles is saying that the act of doing so is stealing, and I agree. Downloading MP3s or taping, I think the act is stealing.

So what are you trying to say?

_EW_



Hello, Pot? This is Kettle. You're black. ~ Prime

Yes, I hate you.

J7 - thanks for accepting me as part of the 'family.'
EnderWiggin is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 06-01-2008, 02:40 PM   #65
Gurges-Ahter
Tyler Durden
 
Gurges-Ahter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Parker, TX
Posts: 957
I meant to say Achilles was right for comparing downloading MP3s to taping a TV show on your VCR, or a song from the radio on a cassette tape. I made my post before I finished reading the thread. I believe neither is stealing.


Gurges-Ahter is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 06-01-2008, 02:42 PM   #66
EnderWiggin
Sine Amore Nihil Est Vita
 
EnderWiggin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 3,395
Forum Veteran LF Jester 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gurges-Ahter View Post
I meant to say Achilles was right for comparing downloading MP3s to taping a TV show on your VCR, or a song from the radio on a cassette tape. I made my post before I finished reading the thread. I believe neither is stealing.
Ok, just so it's clear that we think both are stealing.

_EW_



Hello, Pot? This is Kettle. You're black. ~ Prime

Yes, I hate you.

J7 - thanks for accepting me as part of the 'family.'
EnderWiggin is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 06-01-2008, 03:31 PM   #67
RyuuKage
Junior Member
 
RyuuKage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 373
Recording something with a VCR or writeable DVD-player isn't stealing, otherwise the technology would be illegal. Copying a DVD you rented however, is stealing because it is not broadcast on a free-use station.

And like someone said earlier, its not the disc or the tape or whatever that you're buying; it's the content ON it.

and apparently the great majority of people here are perfectly fine with stealing...that's depressing...
RyuuKage is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 06-01-2008, 03:57 PM   #68
EnderWiggin
Sine Amore Nihil Est Vita
 
EnderWiggin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 3,395
Forum Veteran LF Jester 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RyuuKage View Post
Recording something with a VCR or writeable DVD-player isn't stealing, otherwise the technology would be illegal.
Yeah, just like how LimeWire should be illegal technology.

It's not. Using it for copyright infringement is still stealing. Would you disagree?

_EW_



Hello, Pot? This is Kettle. You're black. ~ Prime

Yes, I hate you.

J7 - thanks for accepting me as part of the 'family.'

Last edited by EnderWiggin; 06-01-2008 at 06:17 PM.
EnderWiggin is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 06-01-2008, 04:00 PM   #69
Achilles
Dapper Chimp
 
Achilles's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 8,204
Helpful! Veteran Modder Forum Veteran 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RyuuKage View Post
Recording something with a VCR or writeable DVD-player isn't stealing, otherwise the technology would be illegal.
Depends on what the "something" is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RyuuKage View Post
Copying a DVD you rented however, is stealing because it is not broadcast on a free-use station.
Because it is broadcast does that make it free use?
Quote:
Originally Posted by RyuuKage View Post
And like someone said earlier, its not the disc or the tape or whatever that you're buying; it's the content ON it.
I'm pretty sure I agree with this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RyuuKage View Post
and apparently the great majority of people here are perfectly fine with stealing...that's depressing...
Hmmm. What makes you say that?
Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderWiggin View Post
Yeah, just like how LimeWire should be illegal technology.
Eh? The technology itself is not illegal. The purpose it is most widely known for is illegal, but the technology itself is fine, no?
Achilles is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 06-01-2008, 06:17 PM   #70
EnderWiggin
Sine Amore Nihil Est Vita
 
EnderWiggin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 3,395
Forum Veteran LF Jester 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles View Post
Eh? The technology itself is not illegal. The purpose it is most widely known for is illegal, but the technology itself is fine, no?
Yeah. It was my tongue-in-cheek way of responding to the 'VCRs should be illegal' statement.

_EW_



Hello, Pot? This is Kettle. You're black. ~ Prime

Yes, I hate you.

J7 - thanks for accepting me as part of the 'family.'
EnderWiggin is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 06-01-2008, 06:56 PM   #71
ForeverNight
nrgurt researcher
 
ForeverNight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Minnesota, USA
Posts: 1,204
Current Game: q2
I caught that one!

But, anyway, I've been following this since I noticed it, and, well, I guess I should just put my two-cents in...

If you buy the product, go ahead, make your copies, but don't distribute it. If you don't own it, and instead download it for free off of a site such as Lime-wire, then you've just stolen the product.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Because it is broadcast does that make it free use?
Yeah, it does, if you intend to copy it and keep it for your own use. I know that Von Ryan's Express was broadcast a month or so back at 8:00-10:00PM, we copied it onto a DVD-RAM just so we could watch it later(High School + Homework).

That is just like recording a song off of the radio to a cassette.

I don't know what the difference between the two is, except that the movie has a lot more people directly involved. But, since -as far as I know- recording off the radio to a cassette is legal, than so is the movie.
ForeverNight is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 06-01-2008, 07:21 PM   #72
Gurges-Ahter
Tyler Durden
 
Gurges-Ahter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Parker, TX
Posts: 957
Quote:
Originally Posted by ForeverNight View Post
That is just like recording a song off of the radio to a cassette.

I don't know what the difference between the two is, except that the movie has a lot more people directly involved. But, since -as far as I know- recording off the radio to a cassette is legal, than so is the movie.
I agree with this, but let's take the logic a step farther (and FYI, this is one reason why just downloading MP3's has yet to result in any legal action by RIAA or anyone else - only the distribution of digital media has led to legal action). Let's say you're listening to the radio and you record a song on a cassette. No harm, no foul (perhaps Achilles disagrees). What if you then transfer that recording to your computer? Is that wrong? Probably not. What's the difference, then, in just downloading the mp3? I'm not saying there's not a difference, but the line between right and wrong on this issue is definitely blurred.


Gurges-Ahter is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 06-01-2008, 08:16 PM   #73
Samuel Dravis
 
Samuel Dravis's Avatar
 
Status: Moderator
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 4,973
The AHRA explicitly states that recording off the radio with an analog device is perfectly legal and that no action can be taken against people who do so for personal use. Using digital means to record is somewhat less clear, but from what I can tell the action is virtually the same.


"Words are deeds." - Wittgenstein
Samuel Dravis is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 06-01-2008, 08:32 PM   #74
Ray Jones
[armleglegarmhead]
 
Ray Jones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: digital
Posts: 8,263
10 year veteran! LF Jester Helpful! Forum Veteran 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
"Legal" copy is a qualifier that you're adding, not me. If I have three mp3s (one ripped from a cd that I've purchased, one that I've downloaded from a pay site, and one that I've obtained via some other means), how do I designate one a "copy" and another "the product"? You can't because "the copy" is "the product".
Ah. Now it is suddenly about mp3s? I thought we were talking about taping from radio, and stealing newspapers in this case.

Quote:
You are arbitrarily adding a whole lot of qualifiers that have nothing to do with the discussion. I hope that it's an honest mistake and not a dishonest attempt to derail the dialog.
*pokes you in the eye*

I vaguely remember you coming up with the whole newspaper stuff. Eh.

Quote:
Okay. Since you are acknowledging that music obtained this way is outside the boundaries of fair use, I don't see how you can deny that it's stealing any longer. Thanks.
I have acknowledged no such thing.

And tearing parts of my post out of context to make them sound as if won't change that either.


Ray Jones is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 06-01-2008, 09:06 PM   #75
EnderWiggin
Sine Amore Nihil Est Vita
 
EnderWiggin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 3,395
Forum Veteran LF Jester 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel Dravis View Post
The AHRA explicitly states that recording off the radio with an analog device is perfectly legal and that no action can be taken against people who do so for personal use. Using digital means to record is somewhat less clear, but from what I can tell the action is virtually the same.
I wasn't aware of this. Thank you for sharing it with us.

_EW_



Hello, Pot? This is Kettle. You're black. ~ Prime

Yes, I hate you.

J7 - thanks for accepting me as part of the 'family.'
EnderWiggin is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 06-02-2008, 03:26 AM   #76
Achilles
Dapper Chimp
 
Achilles's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 8,204
Helpful! Veteran Modder Forum Veteran 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel Dravis View Post
The AHRA explicitly states that recording off the radio with an analog device is perfectly legal and that no action can be taken against people who do so for personal use. Using digital means to record is somewhat less clear, but from what I can tell the action is virtually the same.
Okay, this clears up not only the question I was trying to get answered but the larger question I had once I we'd addressed the first one (as much as can be expected anyway).

Thanks for the info.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Jones View Post
Ah. Now it is suddenly about mp3s? I thought we were talking about taping from radio, and stealing newspapers in this case.
For the purposes of making my point regarding "copies" vs. "product", yes I introduced a scenario involving mp3s.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Jones View Post
*pokes you in the eye*

I vaguely remember you coming up with the whole newspaper stuff. Eh.
Huge difference between using an analogy to make a point and trying to change the argument. *pokes you in the eye back*

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Jones View Post
I have acknowledged no such thing.

And tearing parts of my post out of context to make them sound as if won't change that either.
If you'd like to change your answer now, feel free however I think it's a moot point now compliments of Mr. Dravis' post.
Achilles is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 06-02-2008, 06:02 AM   #77
Ray Jones
[armleglegarmhead]
 
Ray Jones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: digital
Posts: 8,263
10 year veteran! LF Jester Helpful! Forum Veteran 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
For the purposes of making my point regarding "copies" vs. "product", yes I introduced a scenario involving mp3s.
So you invoke newspapers and radio taping on analogue cassettes all over your posts, just to suddenly switch the whole thread of discussion back to digital media and try to nail previous statements made regarding a totally different matter to it? You did not really expect that one to work out for your argumentation, did you?



Quote:
Huge difference between using an analogy to make a point and trying to change the argument.
My...I was merely explaining why the newspaper analogy that you introduced does not work. I mean you come up with it, I reply to it, and instead of coming back in a consent manner you then tell me I'm derailing the dialogue? Why did you drag it into "the dialogue" in the first place when you want it to stay monologue, or expect a certain set of answers that make your stuff look good and undisputed?

Plus, after I rendered your newspaper analogy useless, you now try to wind it all up and to turn it into something I'd come up with, probably aiming to derail discussion. You did not even spend one single second with trying to counter my argument any more. All you went is "hoho, slow there, this does not belong here".

You've lost me with that one, seriously. If you want your argumentation to go unheeded, you might as well adhere from posting it at all, or, at least consider adding a disclaimer stating whether or not you want that particular part of your post to find response, or not, and if so, you might as well outline responses that would fit with your day just to go sure.



Quote:
If you'd like to change your answer now
Wut??

You, sir, deliberately misquoted my response to support your own "argumentation". Next up, you propose an abstraction of that misquoted content, being far beyond good and bad, obviously to gain even more support for your increasingly weak argumentation. I pointed that out and you now seriously tell me "go ahead and change your answer"? To what? To fit it into your idea of "the dialogue"? Are you really serious about that kind of strategy?

How about you posting a correction at least regarding your misquotation instead?



Quote:
I think it's a moot point now compliments of Mr. Dravis' post.
In other words, and despite all the newspaper crap, weasel tactics, and attempts to insult my mind with the belief I would not notice you twisting my own statements --

recording off the radio is not theft, thus Ray 1 : Achilles 0



kthxbai


Ray Jones is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 06-02-2008, 12:11 PM   #78
Achilles
Dapper Chimp
 
Achilles's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 8,204
Helpful! Veteran Modder Forum Veteran 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Jones View Post
recording off the radio is not theft, thus Ray 1 : Achilles 0
I think the "victory" is Sam's but congratulations nonetheless.

Since the rest of my response will only drag this thread off-topic (and I hate it when the mods snip my long posts) you'll get the rest via PM.
Achilles is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 06-02-2008, 12:37 PM   #79
Ray Jones
[armleglegarmhead]
 
Ray Jones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: digital
Posts: 8,263
10 year veteran! LF Jester Helpful! Forum Veteran 
no need to bother, really


Ray Jones is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 06-06-2008, 04:39 AM   #80
Samuel Dravis
 
Samuel Dravis's Avatar
 
Status: Moderator
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 4,973
Surely we don't want to equate what the law says with the moral appropriateness of the act. It would not be right to steal even if the law said that you could do so without legal repercussions, correct? For make no mistake: it still is taking someone else's work for free when you record off the radio. The difference is that you're protected by statute from being sued for doing it. The question that needs answering is: What benefit does copyright law provide for our society?

Here is an interesting speech on just this subject. Though written long ago, I think it is equally applicable to our time.


"Words are deeds." - Wittgenstein
Samuel Dravis is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Post a new thread. Add a reply to this thread. Indicate all threads in this forum as read. Subscribe to this forum. RSS feed: this forum RSS feed: all forums
Go Back   LucasForums > Network > Knights of the Old Republic > Community > Kavar's Corner > Stealing: Physical Vs. Digital

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:42 PM.

LFNetwork, LLC ©2002-2011 - All rights reserved.
Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.