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Old 06-25-2008, 06:34 PM   #121
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Originally Posted by M@RS View Post
This was probably a scam, it wouldn't be the first time...
It's a bit like miracles, isn't it? The difference is, scientists actually attempt to verify their finds...

(Curiously enough, according to wikipedia, a fatwa is not a declaration of a death sentence as it is used in Achilles' sig. Such use of the word is apparently a Western bastardization of its original meaning as a religious opinion on Islamic law.)



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Old 06-25-2008, 06:53 PM   #122
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I stole the line from presentation made by Richard Dawkins. He was discussing "what science would look like if it operated like religion". There is a link to the lecture in my very first blog entry (you may want to consider finding the low-quality video on YT so you can see what everyone is laughing at).
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Old 06-25-2008, 07:16 PM   #123
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So Achilles your signature has to do with the Islamic Faith?


Looks like a fruit cake to me. - Brutus
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I don't want to get my hopes up, but it's like the planets are aligning or something.
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Old 06-25-2008, 07:18 PM   #124
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My signature has to do with how ridiculous science would look if it behaved like religion.
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Old 06-25-2008, 07:20 PM   #125
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Really? How?


Looks like a fruit cake to me. - Brutus
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I don't want to get my hopes up, but it's like the planets are aligning or something.
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Old 06-25-2008, 07:44 PM   #126
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This is an evolution thread.

If you want to have a religion vs. science discussion, I suggest either creating something here or in Kavar's Corner.
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Old 06-25-2008, 10:55 PM   #127
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This was probably a scam, it wouldn't be the first time...
What? It was probably a scam? But someone growing 2 inches rapidly because someone prayed for height is not? You jest, sir.

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Does the fact that human beings have been struck by lightning during the day mean that you will "probably" be struck by lightning today?

You're welcome to make whatever baseless accusations you would like, however if you would like to enjoy being taken seriously, you might want to consider aiming just a tad bit higher with your arguments.
He doesn't know how to enjoy being taken seriously - It's never happened before.

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Really? How?
If it is not apparent to you, please place your foot into a block of wet cement, wait a few minutes, then go for a swim.

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Old 06-26-2008, 04:14 AM   #128
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M@RS,

I get the impression that you have a lot of opinions that you want to be able to share with others. This is precisely the place for that. The part I think you might be getting stuck on is that a forum is an exchange. In the spirit of true exchange you have to be willing to consider that your opinion might have some faults that you haven't noticed before, and as such you have to be open to other viewpoints. FWIW, I think you're running into a lot of problems here because you've adopted some faulty arguments and are brazenly insisting on defending them even though they have holes in them.

Rather than hunkering down into a foxhole and insisting on fighting a losing battle, perhaps you'd have better luck approaching these subjects with a spirit of free-inquiry. It's obvious that you're a young man. No one will hold that against you so long as you don't show up with a chip on your shoulder.

Most of the people posting here have been around for a while and have a solid grasp of what we're talking about. We appreciate rational discourse and well-supported arguments, even when the conclusions suggested by those arguments don't necessarily jive with our own. We'll listen to whatever you have to say if you make some effort to present arguments that make some sense. Making stuff up or insisting that you are correct without a good argument to fall back on is the quickest way to lose our attention and our respect.

Just some friendly advice from someone that suspects that you have more to offer than what you've shown us thus far.

Take care.
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Old 06-26-2008, 05:30 PM   #129
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Just some friendly advice from someone that suspects that you have more to offer than what you've shown us thus far.

Take care.
Achilles is right. ( at that sentence). The reason you're getting so much flak is because you're refusing to discuss things. In a discussion forum.

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Old 06-26-2008, 05:36 PM   #130
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M@RS,

I get the impression that you have a lot of opinions that you want to be able to share with others. This is precisely the place for that. The part I think you might be getting stuck on is that a forum is an exchange. In the spirit of true exchange you have to be willing to consider that your opinion might have some faults that you haven't noticed before, and as such you have to be open to other viewpoints. FWIW, I think you're running into a lot of problems here because you've adopted some faulty arguments and are brazenly insisting on defending them even though they have holes in them.

Rather than hunkering down into a foxhole and insisting on fighting a losing battle, perhaps you'd have better luck approaching these subjects with a spirit of free-inquiry. It's obvious that you're a young man. No one will hold that against you so long as you don't show up with a chip on your shoulder.

Most of the people posting here have been around for a while and have a solid grasp of what we're talking about. We appreciate rational discourse and well-supported arguments, even when the conclusions suggested by those arguments don't necessarily jive with our own. We'll listen to whatever you have to say if you make some effort to present arguments that make some sense. Making stuff up or insisting that you are correct without a good argument to fall back on is the quickest way to lose our attention and our respect.

Just some friendly advice from someone that suspects that you have more to offer than what you've shown us thus far.

Take care.
I will take that advice, I'm sorry, I'm okay at debating at school, so I thought I'd give it a go, someone I know told me that there's an art at not looking like an idiot when you write something, I need to master that art Take Care I'll take a break from this, I haven't slept for a couple of days I look like this


Looks like a fruit cake to me. - Brutus
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I don't want to get my hopes up, but it's like the planets are aligning or something.
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Old 06-26-2008, 06:10 PM   #131
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seeds evolve into plans man. thats proof.


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Old 06-26-2008, 06:30 PM   #132
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Actually, they grow...


Looks like a fruit cake to me. - Brutus
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I don't want to get my hopes up, but it's like the planets are aligning or something.
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Old 06-28-2008, 09:04 AM   #133
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Because there is, a little off topic, but I've seen people get out of wheelchairs who with the doctor's help had no chance of walking again, you telling me they were lying and sat in a wheelchair for 20 years?
Please, House fixed that one guy in less than an hour, with commercial breaks!


But in all seriousness, there is no way Hovind would EVER give that prize away. Evolution in and of itself will never be able to be accepted by certain individuals, even with the innumerable amounts of evidence, because opponents will always find something wrong with it.

Scientists are extremely competitive and oftentimes extremely hostile toward others researching the same thing. Religious people feel that scientists are stepping on their toes because they believe science is nearing the theological/religious border. As a result, many religious leaders are acting hostile toward these scientists and finding minute flaws to obsess over.
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Old 06-28-2008, 03:02 PM   #134
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Evolution in and of itself will never be able to be accepted by certain individuals, even with the innumerable amounts of evidence, because opponents will always find something wrong with it.
I find it incredibly interesting how creationists are terribly rigorous with their standards of acceptance for the scientific Theory of Evolution (though seemingly not for gravity, electricity, etc), but not the least bit rigorous when it comes to creationism or religion in general.

Seems a bit unfair that one set of ideas has to jump through an infinite number of moving goals posts while another doesn't have to provide any evidence at all. What's worse is that these people insist on being taken seriously as critical thinkers. Nice, huh?
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Old 06-28-2008, 06:23 PM   #135
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Please, House fixed that one guy in less than an hour, with commercial breaks!
So really it was 43 minutes.

Brilliant point

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Old 06-28-2008, 06:28 PM   #136
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Please, House fixed that one guy in less than an hour, with commercial breaks!
Actually, he solved it like half an hour but Cuddy was all "No you need proof to give him cortisol blah blah blah I'm barren blah blah" and then she gave him the shot as he was leaving but didn't tell House until a few episodes later :/



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Old 06-28-2008, 06:37 PM   #137
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Actually, he solved it like half an hour but Cuddy was all "No you need proof to give him cortisol blah blah blah I'm barren blah blah" and then she gave him the shot as he was leaving but didn't tell House until a few episodes later :/
That's about the only right thing she said, too.

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Old 06-30-2008, 08:22 PM   #138
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Proof of my point that certain individuals in society (who may or may not have government positions) will never accept evolution even with overwhelming evidence.

http://arstechnica.com/articles/cult...ry-foibles.ars
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Old 06-30-2008, 11:33 PM   #139
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Proof of my point that certain individuals in society (who may or may not have government positions) will never accept evolution even with overwhelming evidence.

http://arstechnica.com/articles/cult...ry-foibles.ars
If Jesus himself came down and told these people that evolution was true they'd say he betrayed god and reject him.



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Old 07-01-2008, 02:17 PM   #140
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Here is something local for me

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/...oddfish16.html

Quote:
Because there is, a little off topic, but I've seen people get out of wheelchairs who with the doctor's help had no chance of walking again, you telling me they were lying and sat in a wheelchair for 20 years?
There could be many things that contribute to that. The main is willpower.

If god fixes people that are in wheel chairs and people with bad limbs then why doesn't he fix amputees or people with AIDS or flesh eating diseases?

Now back on topic, eh?
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Old 08-10-2008, 04:55 PM   #141
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I'm back

Okay, I'm not totally getting back in the fray, but here's a quick post.

So, evolution says that there was a small dot with everything in the universe (meaning: single sentence, a.k.a "Let there be...") The dot was spinning then, it blew up and galaxies, planets, stars, ect. formed. Earth just happened to float to the one spot where life could live, then it started raining...it rained for millions of years, creating oceans, in the water was a mixture of complex chemicals. The chemicals evolved into the first life, basically a cell, that cell somehow evolved and formed two cells. They just happened to be able to reproduce...and slowly over millions of years it evolved to what we are today...

now, say I said that I saw a girl kiss a frog and smoke appeared, and a prince walked out of the smoke (you'd say that it's a fairy tale right?) but, if the frog slowly evolved to a man, now that's "science"

NOTE: If I explained something wrong when talking about evolution, please tell me and I'll fix it


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I don't want to get my hopes up, but it's like the planets are aligning or something.
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Old 08-10-2008, 05:43 PM   #142
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Well, that's called abiogenesis and not evolution, for one. Second, the timescales you're thinking of are huge. It's helpful to remember that.


"Words are deeds." - Wittgenstein
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Old 08-10-2008, 05:46 PM   #143
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Well, that's called abiogenesis and not evolution, for one. Second, the timescales you're thinking of are huge. It's helpful to remember that.
Third of all, wot?

What are you trying to prove, M@RS?

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Old 08-10-2008, 06:19 PM   #144
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That evolution is a joke, and that the earth is not millions of years old...

which I would like to talk about, how old is the earth really?


Looks like a fruit cake to me. - Brutus
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I don't want to get my hopes up, but it's like the planets are aligning or something.
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Old 08-10-2008, 06:24 PM   #145
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That evolution is a joke, and that the earth is not millions of years old...

which I would like to talk about, how old is the earth really?
So instead, you find it easier to believe that all of the sudden the earth just appeared as-is?

The earth is ~4.54 billion years old.

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Old 08-10-2008, 06:32 PM   #146
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Yes, the moon becomes further from the earth at a rate of a couple of inches a year, if that's true, then the earth can't be millions of years old, because if it was the moona nd earth would be touching...so that's what happened to the dinosaurs, they got mooned to death

NOTE: I don't want this to turn into an argument where we're at each other's throats, like last time, I'd prefer to politely talk about it with light-hearted humor...


Looks like a fruit cake to me. - Brutus
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I don't want to get my hopes up, but it's like the planets are aligning or something.
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Old 08-10-2008, 06:51 PM   #147
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Yes, the moon becomes further from the earth at a rate of a couple of inches a year, if that's true, then the earth can't be millions of years old, because if it was the moona nd earth would be touching...so that's what happened to the dinosaurs, they got mooned to death

NOTE: I don't want this to turn into an argument where we're at each other's throats, like last time, I'd prefer to politely talk about it with light-hearted humor...
If the moon is moving further away then it wouldn't be touching. They're opposite things.

Could we please get a source as to how much the moon actually moves away from the earth?

Furthermore, the Senate Chambers are for serious discussion only. We can be civil, but if you'd like humor, go over to the RC forums or somesuch.

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Old 08-10-2008, 07:01 PM   #148
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I'm not sure how you'll take this but here's a forum talking about it... and I was wrong, the moon is leaving at about an centimeter a year not an inch...

if the moon is moving away that means it was a lot closer, any link I found talking about it said or asked if the moon was moving at a constant speed, so the earth can't be really old

there's also the comets, scientists said that all of the stuff in a comet would all break apart in about 10,000 years, if that's true, why do we still have comets? could it be that the earth is less than 10,000 years old?


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I don't want to get my hopes up, but it's like the planets are aligning or something.
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Old 08-10-2008, 07:02 PM   #149
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Your talk about the distance from the Earth to Moon as if it were a linearly increasing distance. It's not.

What happens is that the Earth's surface rotates faster than the Moon's orbit. Since this is the case, it drags the tidal bulges around in front of the Moon's position. This at once slows the rotation of the Earth (by 15 microseconds per year currently) and transfers angular momentum to the moon, which accelerates and consequently moves away from the Earth (38mm per year currently). The Moon's acceleration away from the Earth will continuously decrease until the Earth stops rotating with respect to the Moon (it becomes "tidal locked"), and thereafter the size of the Moon's orbit will decrease once again.

It's easy to mistake an easily quoted figure for the whole truth, but it all too often is only a small part of the picture.


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Old 08-10-2008, 07:04 PM   #150
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my mistake what about the comets then?


Looks like a fruit cake to me. - Brutus
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I don't want to get my hopes up, but it's like the planets are aligning or something.
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Old 08-10-2008, 07:12 PM   #151
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I'm not sure which comet you're talking about (if indeed you were talking about one in specific!), but I'll try anyway.

Comets have varying orbits, from ones that take only years to ones that take decades, or centuries, or even milennia! From what I understand, most of the degradation comets experience occurs when they pass through the inner solar system, near the Sun. For some comets with massive orbits, that occurs very rarely. So rarely, in fact, that it's easily imaginable them to avoid breaking up for extremely long periods of time.


"Words are deeds." - Wittgenstein
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Old 08-10-2008, 07:42 PM   #152
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My apologies in advance if I make arguements already presented by others. I've not read ahead.

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Okay, I'm not totally getting back in the fray, but here's a quick post.

So, evolution says that there was a small dot with everything in the universe <snip>
The Theory of Evolution says nothing of the sort. TOE is a scientific theory from the field of biology. The Big Bang Theory (which you're referencing here) talks about singularities, which is a matter for cosmology - a completely separate field of study.

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The chemicals evolved into the first life, basically a cell, that cell somehow evolved and formed two cells.
Getting closer. This is abiogenesis. While biochemistry is much closer to biology, it is still a separate study and abiogenesis is a separate hypothesis.

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They just happened to be able to reproduce...and slowly over millions of years it evolved to what we are today...
This is mostly correct.

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now, say I said that I saw a girl kiss a frog and smoke appeared, and a prince walked out of the smoke (you'd say that it's a fairy tale right?) but, if the frog slowly evolved to a man, now that's "science"
Correct, for reasons that the analogy fails to grasp.

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NOTE: If I explained something wrong when talking about evolution, please tell me and I'll fix it
I've replied briefly to each of your points. Hopefully I've provided sufficient explanation, however if I have not, please feel free to let me know and I'll be happy to expand as needed.

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That evolution is a joke
This isn't an argument. Please help us understand why you think evolution is a joke. Then we can have a constructive dialog.

Simply coming in a pooping on something without any reason tells me that you a) have already made up your mind and b) aren't actually interested in learning anything.

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and that the earth is not millions of years old...
Well you can take that up with geologists (not biologists) then. Unfortunately for your argument, all the evidence says that it is.

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which I would like to talk about, how old is the earth really?
Start up a geology thread and we'll take it from there.

Also, if you'd like to see what actual scientists think, check out these forums:

http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/Thre...?action=tf&f=7
http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/Thre...?action=tf&f=3

If you decide to post, keep in mind that EvC is much more academically rigorous than LF. A post like this would have probably earned you a warning. Your conduct in the thread thus far would have almost assuredly gotten you banned.

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Yes, the moon becomes further from the earth at a rate of a couple of inches a year, if that's true, then the earth can't be millions of years old, because if it was the moona nd earth would be touching...so that's what happened to the dinosaurs, they got mooned to death
It's more like one inch per year, and yes the moon was much closer to the earth when it was formed, but keep in mind that it was formed a few hundred million years after the earth, so there's no reason to believe that the two would have had to have been touching.

Many of these arguments can be refuted before they are made by simply slowing down, doing a little research, and actually thinking about things before copy/pasting from creationist websites.

Last edited by Achilles; 08-10-2008 at 07:52 PM.
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Old 08-10-2008, 07:52 PM   #153
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I'm not sure how you'll take this but here's a forum talking about it... and I was wrong, the moon is leaving at about an centimeter a year not an inch...

if the moon is moving away that means it was a lot closer, any link I found talking about it said or asked if the moon was moving at a constant speed, so the earth can't be really old

there's also the comets, scientists said that all of the stuff in a comet would all break apart in about 10,000 years, if that's true, why do we still have comets? could it be that the earth is less than 10,000 years old?
Rarely do I post outside of SWK, but your posts were so wonderful I felt compelled to join the fun.

Wow, its clear from the wonderful presentation here that this is a matter that you are extremely well read in and are qualified to comment in.

Quick question from one theist to another theist - if the earth is only 10,000 years old - why is the light from the nearest star other than the sun take longer than that to get here?

If God conveniently made it so the universe was 'ready made' is this not unfair on intelligent and inquisitive minds? Especially if said God, gave humans intelligence and then damns them for using said intelligence?



"Love is the only reality and it is not a mere sentiment. It is the ultimate truth that lies at the heart of creation." - Rabindranath Tagore

"Many a doctrine is like a window pane. We see truth through it but it divides us from truth." - Kahlil Gibran
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Old 08-10-2008, 07:55 PM   #154
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now, say I said that I saw a girl kiss a frog and smoke appeared, and a prince walked out of the smoke (you'd say that it's a fairy tale right?) but, if the frog slowly evolved to a man, now that's "science"
Now, say I said I read a book where an invisible cosmic jewish zombie created the whole of infinity within 7 days (you'd say that it's a fairy tale right?) but, if the whole of creation managed to form and create without the aid of an invisible cosmic jewish zombie in a story I read in 2000 year old book, now that's science.


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Many of these arguments can be refuted before they are made by simply slowing down, doing a little research, and actually thinking about things before copy/pasting from creationist websites.
Quotes for complete truth.
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Old 08-11-2008, 10:20 AM   #155
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Now, say I said I read a book where an invisible cosmic jewish zombie created the whole of infinity within 7 days (you'd say that it's a fairy tale right?) but, if the whole of creation managed to form and create without the aid of an invisible cosmic jewish zombie in a story I read in 2000 year old book, now that's science.
It's better to believe that we were made for a purpose than that we randomly evolved...second Jesus is not a zombie, even Josephus (an Egyptian historian) said that Jesus did rise from the dead, and he wasn't a christian...and I never said it was science, did I...

Lastly, I never copied and pasted, I just listened to some creationists, thought about it, and made my own conclusions, and I made sure they were in line with the Bible...

To jonathan7, the star's light might have been sped up, light is attracted by blackholes, the light might have been sped up by the attraction to a blackhole and it stayed at that speed all the way to earth, and maybe it was sped up again...scientists have been able to increase the speed of light in a lab, why can't it really happen out in space...

here's a link about swedish scientists increasing speed of light
http://www.livescience.com/technolog...fastlight.html

here's another link about people in New Jersey doing the same thing...
http://www.space.com/scienceastronom..._c_000719.html

here's one about german scientists
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/mai...cispeed116.xml

it's happening all over the world, maybe that's what happened to the light from stars...


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I don't want to get my hopes up, but it's like the planets are aligning or something.

Last edited by M@RS; 08-11-2008 at 10:53 AM.
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Old 08-11-2008, 11:21 AM   #156
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It's better to believe that we were made for a purpose than that we randomly evolved...
Suppose for a second that it wasn't true though. What do we do really gain from lying to ourselves?

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second Jesus is not a zombie, even Josephus (an Egyptian historian) said that Jesus did rise from the dead, and he wasn't a christian...and I never said it was science, did I...
Josephus' writings are not even marginally meaningful. He wasn't a contemporary. His writings simply tell us that christianty was around when he was. This is akin to using a newspaper article on the growing popularity of Harry Potter to argue that Harry Potter was an actual living, breathing boy wizard.

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Lastly, I never copied and pasted, I just listened to some creationists, thought about it, and made my own conclusions, and I made sure they were in line with the Bible...
That's the problem with beginning with a conclusion and working your way backwards. If you start with "2" and know that "your" answer has to be "5", then there are only so many numbers you can cram into the remaining space.

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To jonathan7, the star's light might have been sped up, light is attracted by blackholes, the light might have been sped up by the attraction to a blackhole and it stayed at that speed all the way to earth, and maybe it was sped up again...scientists have been able to increase the speed of light in a lab, why can't it really happen out in space...
Is this rhetorical or are you genuinely interested in finding out why black holes don't work this way?

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here's a link about swedish scientists increasing speed of light
http://www.livescience.com/technolog...fastlight.html
Quantum tunneling

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it's happening all over the world, maybe that's what happened to the light from stars...
IIRC you don't have access to YouTube correct? I could point you two a couple of videos that can explain why it's not (or at least why we have no good reason to think that it is), however in the mean time, I guess I'll just ask you why we should believe that this is the case.
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Old 08-11-2008, 11:29 AM   #157
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Is this rhetorical or are you genuinely interested in finding out why black holes don't work this way?

Quantum tunneling

IIRC you don't have access to YouTube correct? I could point you two a couple of videos that can explain why it's not (or at least why we have no good reason to think that it is), however in the mean time, I guess I'll just ask you why we should believe that this is the case.
I'm genuinely interested in blackholes, and I now have access to YouTube

and I correct myself, Josephus was a jew but did not believe in the christian faith...

here's an article about Josephus and Jesus...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus


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I don't want to get my hopes up, but it's like the planets are aligning or something.
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Old 08-11-2008, 11:36 AM   #158
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I'm genuinely interested in blackholes, and I now have access to YouTube
Great! I'd recommend starting with every video that has "creationist" in the title (Link).

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and I correct myself, Josephus was a jew but did not believe in the christian faith...

here's an article about Josephus and Jesus...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus
And?

Nothing here addresses my point.

(Hint: from your own source, "The authenticity of the Testimonium Flavianum has been disputed since the 17th century, and by the mid 18th century the consensus view was that it was a forgery.")
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Old 08-11-2008, 11:38 AM   #159
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I was showing that Josephus didn't believe in christ but wrote down Jesus' life and
resurrection as history...


Looks like a fruit cake to me. - Brutus
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I don't want to get my hopes up, but it's like the planets are aligning or something.
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Old 08-11-2008, 11:47 AM   #160
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I was showing that Josephus didn't believe in christ but wrote down Jesus' life and
resurrection as history...
I suspect at this point that you haven't bothered to read what Josephus allegedly wrote, considering that you didn't read your source either.
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