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Old 08-11-2008, 11:54 AM   #161
M@RS
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I skimmed through it mostly, why?


Looks like a fruit cake to me. - Brutus
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I don't want to get my hopes up, but it's like the planets are aligning or something.
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Old 08-11-2008, 12:05 PM   #162
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M@RS,

I tried giving you the benefit of the doubt way back in post #128. You took some time off and now you're back...and doing the exact same thing that you were doing before. You ignore my arguments, you fail to defend yours, you don't even bother to read what you post which tells me that you definitely aren't reading what I post. You continue to drag the thread off-topic (this is an evolution thread, remember?).

If you aren't going to take this seriously, then please just leave.
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Old 08-11-2008, 12:11 PM   #163
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M@RS - I am point of fact a Christian - now I have only met one Christian member of the intelligentsia who thought the earth was 6,000 years old - and his explanation was possible. However I have never seen any other YEC use his theory to explain things...

Ooh, Achilles - we haven't been here for a while but its Sherlock Holmes quote time...

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"I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorise before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts". – Sir Arthur Conan Doyle’s detective Sherlock Holmes.
This means that if you have decided that the moon is made of cheese (or the earth is 6,000 years old) that no amount of evidence to the contrary will show you that your conclusion is wrong. If you have decided something on non-logical grounds, logic can have no impact on your reasoning - so really we are all wasting our time trying to show you, that you are incorrect.

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Originally Posted by Achilles
Many of these arguments can be refuted before they are made by simply slowing down, doing a little research, and actually thinking about things before copy/pasting from creationist websites.
QFT

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Originally Posted by M@RS View Post
It's better to believe that we were made for a purpose than that we randomly evolved...second Jesus is not a zombie, even Josephus (an Egyptian historian) said that Jesus did rise from the dead, and he wasn't a christian...and I never said it was science, did I...
Why does evolution have to be random in the way you think? If God is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent, why do you think he couldn't use evolution?

a) Since when was Josephus Egyptian?
b) When did Josephus ever say Jesus rose from the dead?

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Lastly, I never copied and pasted, I just listened to some creationists, thought about it, and made my own conclusions, and I made sure they were in line with the Bible...
Really, and why is the earth being 6 billion years old out of line with the Bible? Please could you refer me to the part of the Bible that explicitly states the earth is 6,000 years old, instead of counting down genealogies to get an apparent earth ages.

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To jonathan7, the star's light might have been sped up, light is attracted by blackholes, the light might have been sped up by the attraction to a blackhole and it stayed at that speed all the way to earth, and maybe it was sped up again...scientists have been able to increase the speed of light in a lab, why can't it really happen out in space...

here's a link about swedish scientists increasing speed of light
http://www.livescience.com/technolog...fastlight.html

here's another link about people in New Jersey doing the same thing...
http://www.space.com/scienceastronom..._c_000719.html

here's one about german scientists
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/mai...cispeed116.xml

it's happening all over the world, maybe that's what happened to the light from stars...
I love how you didn't answer my question. Let me pose it again...

a) Why do all the most brilliant minds today thing the earth is alot older than 6,000 years old?
b) So the said brilliant minds think the earth is very old; If God gives someone a brilliant mind, and they note from the evidence that the world is a lot older than 6,000 years old - and so rule out God - is it fair of God to damn them, for using an ability he gave them?

Final note - may I inquire why are you arguing the age of the earth with people who don't trust in Jesus? Do you not think it may be more useful to show love, and talk about him than argue abot entirely trivial matters? And taking the subject wildly off-topic?



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"Many a doctrine is like a window pane. We see truth through it but it divides us from truth." - Kahlil Gibran
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Old 08-11-2008, 12:20 PM   #164
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I skimmed through it mostly, why?
Because you're making arguments and then providing sources that prove you wrong.

Which is just counter-intuitive. The point is to give sources that defend what you're saying.


While you're at it, I've found you a new homepage - http://www.alaska.net/~clund/e_djubl...rthsociety.htm

_EW_



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Old 08-17-2008, 12:13 AM   #165
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That evolution is a joke, and that the earth is not millions of years old...
How old is the earth in your mind?
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Old 08-17-2008, 01:20 AM   #166
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According to most geological evidence, the earth is more like 4.6 billion years old. And please, M@rs, explain dinosaurs and fossil evidence that supports the fact that the earth is not 6,000 years old. I'm a Christian and I know it's not that little. Pre-Cambrian eon anyone?


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Old 08-18-2008, 08:19 AM   #167
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Why does evolution have to be random in the way you think? If God is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent, why do you think he couldn't use evolution?

I agree, I don't really agree with the theory of evolution (btw I'm a born-again christian) but isn't microevolution somewhat proven to be true? Obviously god gave us the ability to adapt which is great, but what I don't really agree with is macroevolution, which is mainly what the theory of evolution is supposed to be about, where one creature can easily evolve into another like monkeys to humans.

According to evolution, mammals started back in dinosaurs times from the common ancestor of this mouse-like thing eventually evolving into all the different mamals today (tigers, lions, humans, whales etc.), or at least that's what the National History museum in Washington D.C. said.

Anyway, there's this book I've been reading lately called Reasons Skeptics should consider Christianity by John McDowell that answers lots of questions about the bible and evolution, and theres his other book called Reasons to Believe that answers about 65 questions (not sure on the exact number) on other things about Christianity. They're pretty good.


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Old 08-18-2008, 01:44 PM   #168
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Micro-Evolution is true, all of the others, scientists are scrambling to prove true


Looks like a fruit cake to me. - Brutus
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I don't want to get my hopes up, but it's like the planets are aligning or something.
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Old 08-18-2008, 01:59 PM   #169
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Micro-Evolution is true, all of the others, scientists are scrambling to prove true
And yet you still didn't answer any of our questions.

_EW_



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Old 08-18-2008, 02:04 PM   #170
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Micro-Evolution is true, all of the others, scientists are scrambling to prove true
I'm pretty sure it's actually the religious crowd that is scrambling to prove them false.


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Old 08-18-2008, 03:48 PM   #171
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If I'd know micro evolution to be true, I'd wonder why it would be that the same principle couldn't apply to a bigger scheme, namely macro evolution.


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Old 08-19-2008, 03:35 AM   #172
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Quote:
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And yet you still didn't answer any of our questions.

_EW_
I guess answers are just a luxury to him EW.
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Old 08-19-2008, 12:45 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by MeleeMaster View Post
I agree, I don't really agree with the theory of evolution (btw I'm a born-again christian) but isn't microevolution somewhat proven to be true?
Within the context of how science actually works, the appropriate response to this question is: The Theory of Evolution is generally accepted. The scientific method doesn't really deal with "proof" (that's math).

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Obviously god gave us the ability to adapt which is great, but what I don't really agree with is macroevolution, which is mainly what the theory of evolution is supposed to be about, where one creature can easily evolve into another like monkeys to humans.
The Theory of Evolution makes no distiction between "micro" and "macro" so I'm not sure where you're getting the basis of your argument. The Theory of Evolution deals with decent with modification which has been observed innumerable times (if you need evidence, check the mirror to note that you are not an exact replica of either of your parents. Neither is any living thing on Earth). In other words, the ToE doesn't deal with what you seem to think it does

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According to evolution, mammals started back in dinosaurs times from the common ancestor of this mouse-like thing eventually evolving into all the different mamals today (tigers, lions, humans, whales etc.), or at least that's what the National History museum in Washington D.C. said.
Yep, that sounds about right

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Anyway, there's this book I've been reading lately called Reasons Skeptics should consider Christianity by John McDowell that answers lots of questions about the bible and evolution, and theres his other book called Reasons to Believe that answers about 65 questions (not sure on the exact number) on other things about Christianity. They're pretty good.
Thanks for the recommendations.

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Micro-Evolution is true, all of the others, scientists are scrambling to prove true
Do you have a source for this or is this something else you've simply decided to make up? There is no Theory of Micro-Evolution or Theory of Macro-Evolution. These are distinctions invented by creationists who have realized that they cannot argue evolution in the lab. That they choose to ignore the fossil record doesn't make their position credible or true.
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Old 08-19-2008, 05:29 PM   #174
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M@RS: You're re-entering infraction territory for posting distracting comments rather participating in a debate. Warning.


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Old 08-19-2008, 06:14 PM   #175
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The Theory of Evolution makes no distiction between "micro" and "macro" so I'm not sure where you're getting the basis of your argument. The Theory of Evolution deals with decent with modification which has been observed innumerable times (if you need evidence, check the mirror to note that you are not an exact replica of either of your parents. Neither is any living thing on Earth). In other words, the ToE doesn't deal with what you seem to think it does
Of course that's what the theory evolution is about, don't most people know about it? And adding to the mirror statement, and what I said about humans and animals being able to adapt earlier, it's very obvious and has been observed, for example in polar bears, in humans, and in probably numerous other animals. There are different races of humans, and you could consider a polar bear another race of bear, because it IS a bear, but it has white fur and has adapted to cold temperatures, it's not evolving into a flying octopus. Just like the African race of humans has dark skin and is adapted to hot temperatures. But we are still completely human, were aren't something else. If skulls of the modern man were found waaaaay back in the day, why haven't we been evolving into different creatures instead of just adapting and making little changes in that since then?

Why are some animals supposed to have evolved into different creatures while others are supposed to have stayed the same? Do some animals have stable DNA, while others do not? But if we are all from a common ancestor, wouldn't our DNA have practically the same stability, or do certain animals' DNAs just stabilize and others remain or become unstable allowing them to just evolve?

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Do you have a source for this or is this something else you've simply decided to make up? There is no Theory of Micro-Evolution or Theory of Macro-Evolution. These are distinctions invented by creationists who have realized that they cannot argue evolution in the lab. That they choose to ignore the fossil record doesn't make their position credible or true.
No, there isn't any theory of micro or macro-evolution, they're simply terms, whether they were made up by us creationists or not (check reference.com for encyclopedia entries on the words).

And yes your right, we can't really argue evolution in the lab, or work, or school, or at least not all the time (http://www.expelledthemovie.com/), but scientists sure can, don't they often change the "lineage" of animals every 5 or 10 years, and haven't they constantly argued and been divided about animals and their lineages in the past constantly coming up with their own lineages?

Also, how does the fossil record make our position incredible and untrue? Does it really have any transitional/intermediate forms, any creatures with half-formed feet, or half-formed wings?

Can't the neanderthal man and the rickets in his jaw bone be explained by disease and calcium deficiencies?

Weren't many modern-looking skulls found that were believed to be older than the neanderthal? Weren't human jaws found in deposits in Kenya in 1932 older than the jaws with rickets found in Neander? Wasn't it proven that Neanderthals walked erect? According to my book here, it says that in 1947 Neanderthal was discovered to have lived in a cave that had been previously inhabited by a modern human before him. So doesn't that mean that either the Neanderthal was a seperate creature by itself, or more likely a modern man with calcium deficiency or some disease?

How come in the fossil record new groups of plants and animals appear suddenly and abruptly, and how come they seem to stay pretty much the same until they disappear altogether if/when they do? How is the cambrian explosion explained?


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Old 08-19-2008, 06:24 PM   #176
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It is pretty sure than many different humanoid species, some similar and some different, existed at the same time throughout mankind's entire evolution. So it was in Neanderthal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neanderthal


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Old 08-19-2008, 06:49 PM   #177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeleeMaster View Post
Of course that's what the theory evolution is about, don't most people know about it?
No.

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No, there isn't any theory of micro or macro-evolution, they're simply terms, whether they were made up by us creationists or not (check reference.com for encyclopedia entries on the words).
I have.

From your own source:

"Since the inception of the two terms, their meanings have been revised several times and even fallen into disfavor amongst scientists who prefer to speak of biological evolution as one process."

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And yes your right, we can't really argue evolution in the lab, or work, or school, or at least not all the time (http://www.expelledthemovie.com/), but scientists sure can, don't they often change the "lineage" of animals every 5 or 10 years, and haven't they constantly argued and been divided about animals and their lineages in the past constantly coming up with their own lineages?
Yes, scientists do often make discoveries that cause them to have to remap/revise lineages, however:

1) This is not only allowed/encouraged in the scientific process but is expected and actively sought out and

2) has nothing to do with the biological Theory of Evolution.

In fairness, I haven't seen Expelled, but that's only because I refuse to reward Ben Stein's drivel with part of my hard-earned cash. The trailers and interviews were sufficient to cause me to think that the movie would be garbage and the reviews put forth by legitimate biologists (which Stein is not) seem to confirm my suspicions. I expect that I'll be able to watch it for free on YouTube at some point and then I'll be seeing it.

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Also, how does the fossil record make our position incredible and untrue?
Because that position does not posit a testable hypothesis of it's own or offer anything scientific that refutes the existing theory which does match the evidence, is testable, and has been tested...repeatedly.

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Does it really have any transitional/intermediate forms, any creatures with half-formed feet, or half-formed wings?
All fossils are transitional/intermediate forms.

If I give you 1 and 2, you'll ask "where is 1.5?". If I find 1.5, you'll ask "where are 1.25 and 1.75?", and so on. At some point the "game" becomes a little silly.

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Can't the neanderthal man and the rickets in his jaw bone be explained by disease and calcium deficiencies?
Perhaps an expert on neanderthal man would be a better source for a response on this.

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Weren't many modern-looking skulls found that were believed to be older than the neanderthal?
Good question. What is your source? What explanation did they offer? Is it testable? Does it match other evidence? Are there alternate explanations that have also been tested?

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Weren't human jaws found in deposits in Kenya in 1932 older than the jaws with rickets found in Neander?
Again, I'm not sure what this has to do with the Theory of Evolution. When they dated said bones, what were the dates? Doesn't seem that we can go much of anywhere without that information.

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Wasn't it proven that Neanderthals walked erect? According to my book here, it says that in 1947 Neanderthal was discovered to have lived in a cave that had been previously inhabited by a modern human before him.
At this point, I'm terribly interested in knowing what book you have there.

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So doesn't that mean that either the Neanderthal was a seperate creature by itself, or more likely a modern man with calcium deficiency or some disease?
Of course that's a hypothesis. That Neandethal was actually a poorly adapted alien species from another galaxy is another one. So the question becomes how do any hypothesis we come up with stand up to the scientific process?

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How come in the fossil record new groups of plants and animals appear suddenly and abruptly, and how come they seem to stay pretty much the same until they disappear altogether if/when they do?
I would need specific examples to understand what you're talking about. I suspect that you're talking about frequent mass extinctions that paleontologists are well aware of, and again, have very little (if anything) to do with the Theory of Evolution.

Here's my question to you: If life was designed by an intelligent designer, then why would such a designer not only make so many mistakes, but leave evidence of said mistakes, and even repeat them in newer versions. If you need a specific example, I'd submit vitamin c deficiencies in primates (including humans). Seems odd that a designer would intentionally do this, and not only to us, but those animals which most closely match our genome.

Thanks for reading.
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Old 08-28-2008, 03:59 PM   #178
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super quick point here's something from school, this is word for word

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One product of economic specialization was the wheel. The oldest known wheel dates back to about 3,500 B.C. With wheeled wagons much larger loads could be carried for longer distances, which helped stimulate long-distance trade. The invention of the wheel also led to the development of the war chariot, a technology that along with bronze and then iron weapons enabled civilizations to conquer larger territories.


Scientists believe that humans started living along the Nile's banks in about 6,000 B.C

Old, Middle, New

Historians divide ancient Egypt into three major eras: Old Kingdom, Middle Kingdom, and New Kingdom. Study the timeline below to learn more about each of these eras.
Old Kingdom
c.2700-2200 B.C. During the Old Kingdom, powerful pharaohs created a strong, centralized government managing irrigation systems, large armies, pyramid construction, and local governments.
Middle Kingdom
c.2050-1800 B.C. Troubles struck Egypt, marking the beginning of the Middle Kingdom. Egyptians experienced crop failures, political power struggles, and raids from foreign invaders such as the Hyssops. With powerful war chariots, the Hyssops defeated the Egyptian army and ruled over parts of lower Egypt for more than 100 years.
New Kingdom
c.1550-1100 B.C. During the New Kingdom, powerful pharaohs took the throne, forcing the Hyssops out of Egypt and expanding the Egyptian Empire. The Egyptian Empire stretched around the Mediterranean Sea, covering Palestine and reaching Asia Minor. In Asia Minor, the Egyptian army faced a tough foe, the Hittites. The New Kingdom slowly declined as Egypt was invaded by other groups of foreigners.
now why is it that all of the dates are under 6,000 years old? maybe the Earth really is not millions of years old...why wasn't the wheel invented earlier? The "missing links" should've been smart enough to make wheels?


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I don't want to get my hopes up, but it's like the planets are aligning or something.
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Old 08-28-2008, 04:49 PM   #179
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super quick point here's something from school, this is word for word



now why is it that all of the dates are under 6,000 years old? maybe the Earth really is not millions of years old...why wasn't the wheel invented earlier? The "missing links" should've been smart enough to make wheels?
wow m@rs you just blew my ****ing mind it's so simple i mean where were all these archeologists who go around blathering about dinosaurs existing millions of years ago when their 5th grade teacher or whatever taught a lesson on early man i mean it's right in the textbook there's nothing about humans existing before 6000 years ago case closed evolution has been disproven by m@rs: master internet poster and doctor of biology, biochemistry, and education (he's educatin' all y'all fools ).


oh wait there's other species besides humans that could have existed well before we came to be. my bad


On a more serious note you should try doing research and gathering facts from reputable sources before you debate instead of stuff you happened upon or regurgitating crap you've heard from zealots and idiots with no scientific credibility or experience. Perhaps then people would be inclined to take you more seriously?



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Old 08-28-2008, 05:01 PM   #180
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wow m@rs you just blew my ****ing mind it's so simple i mean where were all these archeologists who go around blathering about dinosaurs existing millions of years ago when their 5th grade teacher or whatever taught a lesson on early man i mean it's right in the textbook there's nothing about humans existing before 6000 years ago case closed evolution has been disproven by m@rs: master internet poster and doctor of biology, biochemistry, and education (he's educatin' all y'all fools ).
For once we actually agree


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oh wait there's other species besides humans that could have existed well before we came to be. my bad
Tell me about one.


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On a more serious note you should try doing research and gathering facts from reputable sources before you debate instead of stuff you happened upon or regurgitating crap you've heard from zealots and idiots with no scientific credibility or experience. Perhaps then people would be inclined to take you more seriously?
I totally agree with you, some of the stuff I've posted was irrelevant, my apologies


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I don't want to get my hopes up, but it's like the planets are aligning or something.
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Old 08-28-2008, 05:04 PM   #181
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now why is it that all of the dates are under 6,000 years old? maybe the Earth really is not millions of years old...why wasn't the wheel invented earlier? The "missing links" should've been smart enough to make wheels?
The Aztecs didn't invent the wheel, either.



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Old 08-28-2008, 05:08 PM   #182
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Tell me about one.
As a stab in the dark: most dinosaur-species.


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Old 08-28-2008, 05:08 PM   #183
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Tell me about one.
Woah there pal you got me there back off with all the knowledge us common folk don't have multiple PhDs and whatnot.




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The Aztecs didn't invent the wheel, either.
Aztecs = Mexicans and M@rs thinks Mexicans are sub-human because he is a racist.



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Old 08-28-2008, 05:09 PM   #184
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As a stab in the dark: most dinosaur-species.
I figured jmac was talking about missing links..


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I don't want to get my hopes up, but it's like the planets are aligning or something.
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Old 08-28-2008, 05:11 PM   #185
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Not really a missing link, but: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australopithecus


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Old 08-28-2008, 05:18 PM   #186
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http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi....afarensis.jpg

how could they tell how the feet looked, I didn't see any bones for the feet.

also the Laetoli footprints are interesting, did you know that a scientist did a test with people who never wore shoes, he had them walk through mud, sand, and some other stuff, their footprints looked almost exactly like the footprints at Laetoli...


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I don't want to get my hopes up, but it's like the planets are aligning or something.
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Old 08-28-2008, 05:24 PM   #187
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Educated guess, M@RS. Scientists do that.

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Old 08-28-2008, 05:25 PM   #188
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Educated guess, M@RS. Scientists do that.
I know, but just wanted to point it out, for kicks really.


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I don't want to get my hopes up, but it's like the planets are aligning or something.
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Old 08-28-2008, 05:26 PM   #189
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I know, but just wanted to point it out, for kicks really.
This is the ultimate argument seriously guys stop arguing logic has no chance of conquering such an ironclad counter.



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Old 08-28-2008, 05:29 PM   #190
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how could they tell how the feet looked, I didn't see any bones for the feet.
You look at thousand feets and go from there.

Quote:
also the Laetoli footprints are interesting, did you know that a scientist did a test with people who never wore shoes, he had them walk through mud, sand, and some other stuff, their footprints looked almost exactly like the footprints at Laetoli...
That's not very surprising regarding that both species are hominids, is it?


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Old 08-28-2008, 05:31 PM   #191
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Now, I have a yes, no question...

Don't Lucy's bones indicate that their feet would be smaller?


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I don't want to get my hopes up, but it's like the planets are aligning or something.
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Old 08-28-2008, 05:34 PM   #192
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These are not Lucy's footprints.


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Old 08-28-2008, 05:35 PM   #193
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You can't/shouldn't make an educated guess based on one single organism. Lucy's skeleton had no feet either, though.

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Old 08-28-2008, 05:40 PM   #194
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These are not Lucy's footprints.
But they were very closely related...


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I don't want to get my hopes up, but it's like the planets are aligning or something.
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Old 08-28-2008, 05:54 PM   #195
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Gee. Not the same person. Possibly not even the same species. Get it?


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Old 08-28-2008, 05:57 PM   #196
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I never said they were Lucy's footprints, I said that her bones should indicate that her relatives wouldn't be much different, in a drawing I saw, they were very different, taller, and "more evolved"


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I don't want to get my hopes up, but it's like the planets are aligning or something.
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Old 08-28-2008, 06:01 PM   #197
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Drawings are not science. Drawings are art.

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Old 08-28-2008, 06:02 PM   #198
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That were made by artists who were told to recreate what the creatures looked like who made the footprints...


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I don't want to get my hopes up, but it's like the planets are aligning or something.
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Old 08-28-2008, 06:05 PM   #199
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Seriously, her bones indicate how a related species would look like? Hm.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laetoli#Hominid_footprints


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Old 08-28-2008, 06:25 PM   #200
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That were made by artists who were told to recreate what the creatures looked like who made the footprints...


Do I win yet?

Drawings are art, regardless of their best intentions.

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