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Old 06-08-2008, 03:35 AM   #1
Racter
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Thumbs down K1's canon story

Does anyone else think the LS ending of K1 makes no sense, given the whole True Sith bit introduced in the second game?

Um, hi. I started a war to take over the Republic so I could make it strong enough to withstand a massive assault in the near future, then I just gave up in the middle of it and left to fight them by myself...

I personally feel the "left to fight them alone" angle is completely ridiculous too, not to mention leaving the Ebon Hawk... Can he teleport now?
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Old 06-08-2008, 04:27 AM   #2
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Well, I've always thought that during and shortly after K1, Revan was completly schyzophrenic. One part of him was the cunning and clever Revan who had carefully planned the invasion of the Republic, the other part the stupid Light-Sider through and through who had not the wisdom the former Revan had, created by the Council.

So my guess is that when the latter recovered Revan's memories about the True Sith, that stupid moron decided to fight them the poor lonesome cowboy way, not wanting anyone he cared about to be harmed.

I could totally imagine Revan's original personality struggling to get control over the stupid Jedi-created one, and suddenly awakening in the middle of nowhere, surrounded by hostile True Sith, thousands of light-years from help, feeling "pwn'd".


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Old 06-08-2008, 07:30 AM   #3
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was the true sith, tsl story taken into consideration by bioware? no, because it wasn't written by them or thought of until a year after k1 was released.

The canon ending was established solely for the benefit of future non customizable/rpg projects, ie. Comics, Novels etc, the fact that it's lightside did not surprise me as 'most' star wars stories have a neat happy ending


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Old 06-08-2008, 07:37 AM   #4
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^^ though in K1s case I don't understand how anyone in their right mind would go lightside at the end.


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Old 06-08-2008, 07:53 AM   #5
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^^ though in K1s case I don't understand how anyone in their right mind would go lightside at the end.
I say the same for darkside



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Old 06-08-2008, 09:12 AM   #6
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Um, hi. I started a war to take over the Republic so I could make it strong enough to withstand a massive assault in the near future, then I just gave up in the middle of it and left to fight them by myself...
If it's someone fault, it's certainly not Bioware's. How would it? As you yourself said, the True Sith babbling was introduced on the second game.


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Old 06-08-2008, 09:50 AM   #7
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No oηe can answer this question because there's not enough information.

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I say the same for darkside


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if it's someone fault, it's certainly not Bioware's. How would it? As you yourself said, the True Sith babbling was introduced on the second game
Actually, two plot points in K2 are mentioned as far back as K1. Dorak says that nobody knows how Revan corrupted so many to his side (hinting at the true purpose of the Battle of Malachor V), and Ajunta Pall indirectly mentions the True Sith when speaking to him.


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Old 06-08-2008, 11:36 AM   #8
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Just thinking out loud - I might be totally off base... but I think I remember Kreia mentioning Revan "going off to fight the true Sith in his own way", and something like, "Revan has gone where no one he loves can follow"... maybe that means something different than the obvious (leaving the known galaxy). Maybe it means he had to die. Perhaps its some spiritual battle. Or maybe he had to die to end the line of the teachings of the "true Sith". Like TKA-001 said, no one can answer this because we lack sufficient information.


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Old 06-08-2008, 12:02 PM   #9
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I thought Revan didn't leave until a year after K1. So, presumably, he didn't remember the True Sith until then.


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Old 06-08-2008, 04:12 PM   #10
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I never said the fault was Bioware's, it belongs to whoever decided to make the LS ending for K1 the cannon story.
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Old 06-08-2008, 04:55 PM   #11
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I don't understand what's wrong with the KoToR 1 LS ending really. Revan starts remembering things about his old identity after they save the galaxy. Then Revan finally remembers what happened in the unknown regions. Revan leaves everybody he/she loves behind and takes the ebon hawk with him/her. Apparantly something happened cuz the driod thingy takes the ship back to the 'known' galaxy to search for help. What's not to get?
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Old 06-08-2008, 06:39 PM   #12
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The same thing happens with dark side, except replace "save the galaxy" with "screw the galaxy over".


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Old 06-08-2008, 11:17 PM   #13
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I never said the fault was Bioware's, it belongs to whoever decided to make the LS ending for K1 the cannon story.

If memory serves, and it might not, the LS ending to the game was made canon long before TSL was even created. It's also an homage (or a rip off depending on your point of view) to the ending of A New Hope.

And honestly I don't see how the LS ending would make any less sense in the context of TSL than the DS ending would. In fact the DS ending makes less. I mean Revan has an unlimited army at his/her beck and call, an apprentice that can perform Battle Meditation, and s/he abandons it all to go fight this threat to his/her power by him/herself? That makes no sense to me.


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Old 06-09-2008, 03:01 AM   #14
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I say the same for darkside
O'rly, after going trough all the trouble geting to the star forge, you can get (almost) unlimited power to do as you please with, and a decent looking gal. Alternatively, you can give up the power and browbeat the gal into folowing you, which is going to do so much good for the galaxy. A galaxy with only a cripled navy to defend it.

What was that about being in their right mind

And people,this is the star wars universe which means that whenever the light/dark siders get a big advantage, they'll always screw up in the name of fair play.


Checking out seems not to do much.
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Old 06-09-2008, 03:13 AM   #15
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O'rly, after going trough all the trouble geting to the star forge, you can get (almost) unlimited power to do as you please with, and a decent looking gal. Alternatively, you can give up the power and browbeat the gal into folowing you, which is going to do so much good for the galaxy. A galaxy with only a cripled navy to defend it.

What was that about being in their right mind

And people,this is the star wars universe which means that whenever the light/dark siders get a big advantage, they'll always screw up in the name of fair play.
Comprehension is not a prerequisite of co-operation.

Besides, why bother going DS, what does all that power get you in the end? And in my universe Revan is a woman



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Old 06-09-2008, 04:03 AM   #16
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Without a K3 to answer our questions, we're really left fumbling in the dark.

Personally, I think the DS ending is even more inconsistent. Revan unifies the Sith, is posed to crush the Republic, and then lets the whole thing fall to pieces by leaving without establishing any sort of heir.

Le sigh, K3. About 3.5 years and no answers.


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Old 06-09-2008, 04:59 PM   #17
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Comprehension is not a prerequisite of co-operation.
Must........not......sound.........stupid.......
It seems my terrible english strikes again, what did you mean by that?

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Besides, why bother going DS, what does all that power get you in the end?
The joy of having no one to blame but myself for all the woes in the galaxy

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And in my universe Revan is a woman
It changes little, as lord of tha oooniverze it wouldn't take long to, *ahem* get even with the male version


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Old 06-09-2008, 05:26 PM   #18
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Must........not......sound.........stupid.......
It seems my terrible english strikes again, what did you mean by that?
Basically we don't have to understand each other to get on


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The joy of having no one to blame but myself for all the woes in the galaxy
Isn't that the same either way?

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It changes little, as lord of tha oooniverze it wouldn't take long to, *ahem* get even with the male version
I'm a nancy lightsider.... sorry!



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Old 06-12-2008, 07:05 AM   #19
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Basically we don't have to understand each other to get on


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Isn't that the same either way?
Lets asume a battle betwen cerka corp and some poor exploited locals turn into a full blown "civil" war.

Darksider: "Bad lotu, your fault, don't let that happen again." *Proceeds to use his powa to make peace*.

Lightsider: "Well, it's not like I could have done anything, because I was wise enough to give up what could have prevented it and ended it. A well, I'll try to make things right." *Grabs lightsaber, takes the first ship to cerka hq only to realize what happens to heroes who take on impossible odds once they become expendable*.

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I'm a nancy lightsider.... sorry!


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Old 06-12-2008, 10:16 AM   #20
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Well, in the context of TSL, the KotOR endings make no sense, however, if you've played TSL twice (Like myself) and disliked the game except for the updated graphics, then you don't really care and call it the bastard child of the franchise.

mur'phon, liked the comparison.

What I've never understood about the Lightside/Darkside, is why the Lightside is always Pro-Republic, and the Dark Side is always Anti-Republic. You'd think that the Jedi Council would have some Dark Jedi on their side that they can just call out when needed... E.G. the Assassination of Revan. Just a thought....
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Old 06-12-2008, 10:50 AM   #21
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This kind of thing is why I think TSL is such a massive failure. They basically spat out everything Bioware had done (Not TOTALLY unreasonable, I daresay getting rid of some stuff makes good sense, but good grief, they threw the baby out with the bathwater) and basically ignored logic in favor of the bloody 'True Sith' plotline. I swear, if the True Sith turn out to be Yuuzhan Vong I'm going to find Avellone and eat his eyes.
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Old 06-12-2008, 11:52 AM   #22
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Yuuzhan Vong
Speaking of a baaad plotline......

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Old 06-12-2008, 11:57 AM   #23
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^^^^ Can you repeat that, just to make sure it goes on the record? And posterity can look back and say, "How could only one person have said that? Why didn't more people realize it?"

Please?
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Old 06-12-2008, 11:58 AM   #24
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Yuuzhan Vong
Speaking of a baaad plotline......



How anyone could read Vector Prime and not think exactly the same thing is beyond me...

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Old 06-12-2008, 12:07 PM   #25
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I think you just made my day!

Anyway, maybe the mythical KotOR 3 will explain it... somehow... doubtful, but hey, we can wish, right?

Why is it that your actions in K1 don't affect anything in K2 except if Revan was male/female or dark/light... Wouldn't it be better if there was someway for it to check K1's data too? So if you helped kill the Mandies on Dantooine as Revan, the Jedi aren't hated with such a passion? Or something like that...

Nah, just crazy talk.

Oh, what about the GenoHarraden (Sp?) in K1, why couldn't there have been more to it? Maybe a mod idea for later?
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Old 06-12-2008, 01:13 PM   #26
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Why is it that your actions in K1 don't affect anything in K2 except if Revan was male/female or dark/light... Wouldn't it be better if there was someway for it to check K1's data too? So if you helped kill the Mandies on Dantooine as Revan, the Jedi aren't hated with such a passion? Or something like that...
Can you imagine how unecessary this is for the whole game to work? And how big that would inevitably make the game be? Hence...

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Originally Posted by ForeverNight
Oh, what about the GenoHarraden (Sp?) in K1, why couldn't there have been more to it? Maybe a mod idea for later?
If you mean their presence on K2, know that it's being restored by Team-Gizka and their upcoming restoration mod.

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What I've never understood about the Lightside/Darkside, is why the Lightside is always Pro-Republic, and the Dark Side is always Anti-Republic.
Because it's a known fact that is disseminated throught american medias that the Republic is the perfect (or at least the closer to perfection) that a country may adopt as it's government system. It wouldn't sound right if the good guys were trying to destroy the most beneficial, working system.


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Old 06-12-2008, 02:43 PM   #27
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Because it's a known fact that is disseminated throught american medias that the Republic is the perfect (or at least the closer to perfection) that a country may adopt as it's government system. It wouldn't sound right if the good guys were trying to destroy the most beneficial, working system.
Is that Sarcasm? I can't tell...

But, I guess I just want more depth to the Star Wars Universe than simply: Republic=Lighside=Good, and Anti-Republic=Darkside=Evil. Nobody is pure good or pure evil, so I guess I want low fantasy instead of high fantasy...

As to TSL taking a whole lotta space if you would have your actions in K1 affect game play more... Yeah, it probably would, but honestly, how many of us would buy it despite that?

And for my GenoHarraden, I was referring to more K1 stuff, since they were there for a brief moment, then not... I guess I just wanted more story out of it...

Oh, and as for Team Gizka, I didn't know that they were still living!
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Old 09-10-2008, 04:48 PM   #28
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I don't exactly plan "canon" (because in my home, Revan is female), but here's my take:

The True Sith are not an empire, or a group of ancient sorcerers, or even a group of Force Ghosts. The True Sith are a belief, the result of a schism that split the Force into Ashla and Bogan, Light and Dark, in the minds and hearts of its practitioners. The "True Sith" is the evil created when sentients started dividing and classifying the life force of the universe to fit ideology and not truth. This schism begot the extremist behavior of Jedi and Sith, who have doomed the universe to perpetual warfare as each seeks to dominate the universe with their beliefs. and exterminate the other

Now, the Force doesn't like the idea of one side dominating. It needs the balance in order to survive. Therefore, it pushes back on those who can push it. The more it's tilted in one direction, the more violent the backlash when it hits (See Order 66 and the fall of the Rataka for examples). The Force connects and manipulates all known life in order not to bring about Light or Dark, but to survive and perpetuate its existence. Worse, it means the galaxy's fate is dictated by a handful of "midichlorine mutants" (term borrowed from Brin) who go insane and tear the universe to shreds every few decades.

Revan was taught by Traya, a master manipulator and someone whose long-standing hatred of the Force likely originated even before Revan came into the picture. Traya cautioned the great Force prodigy to see people, teachers, and even the Force itself as mere tools. Add to that the Jedi Order who prized Revan not as a person, but for her power and abilities. Then pour in the ruthless non-attachment mandates that both major Force Schools use; attachments get in the way between the Force and those who can wield it. The perfect Force User has no connections or attachments, save that to the source of their power. There is no love, except love of the Force. Revan also saw Traya and Arren Kae cast out of the order, the latter for daring to love something other than the Order. Traya's ruthless tutelage would aid Revan in seeking out many masters, and learning everything she could before discarding them. The Jedi Order encouraged this, seeing Revan as an exemplary example of the Jedi non-attachment philosophy. However, Vrook was right - the roots of Revan's corruption went a lot deeper than the Mandalorian War.

So, here come the Mandalorians. Millions suffer and die under the bloodbath Mandalore's unleashed. The Jedi are still crowing to the hills about being the protectors and guardians of the Republic, but they're gazing at their navels and sealing their enclaves out of fear while the Republic is outside, banging on the doors and begging for help - like the Dantooine settlers, but on a much larger and uglier scale. Revan grows progressively more enraged with the Jedi's hypocrisy and inability to do their stated job and takes matters into her own hands. The Jedi cut Revan off alontg with those who decide to go with her, leaving this young Knight and her followers with no guidance or anything to keep them in check.

In the course of the War, Revan starts to become even more brutal. Remember, she had years of conditioning to see people as nameless entities to aid or utilize. The utilitarian attitude towards sentient life became progressively more callous later on. They were not people, they were squadrons, numbers, resources. that Jedi non-attachment coupled with Traya's utilitarian outlook worked its magic brutally well. Battles, atrocities, and bloodshed all blurred together, and Revan discovered the Council was also partly right - there was something else behind the Mandalorians. Revan was determined to hunt down and kill the problem at its source.

From the Rakatan ruins, she learned of the great, galaxy-spanning empire that relied overmuch on the Force and ended in ruin. the horrors of war were already sliding her into the Dark side (and hell yes, Revan fell. Traya will say otherwise, but that hag's got her own agenda). At Malachor, this reached its zenith. Going through the ranks, she sorted those under her command into two categories - those who were loyal to her, and those who were loyal to the Republic. The Republic loyalists got assigned Malachor. She knew she'd lose most of them, but it would take out the Mandalorians so she could investigate the shadows freely.

Investigating Malachor, she finds the teachings of Trayus, and going into the Unknown Regions, discovers even more proof to support this theory; the root cause of the galaxy's wars is the Force's attempt to stay alive. Kill the Force, break its will, and you remove a major cause of galactic war. There will still be sentients fighting for power, but nothing on the horrific, galactic level of Exar Kunand the Mandalorian Wars. Now, most Force Users would stop here, and recoil in horror...but remember who taught Revan.

Now, the true war comes. Time to kill the Force. Revan knows it'll kill her, knows it'll kill all the Force users, and likely kill off every Sensitive in the galaxy. Trillions are going to die...but the survivors, those who cannot touch the Force, will be left behind in a universe where their fate is theirs alone. No sorcery or Force religion, no rulers chosen by accidents of midichlorines; a Golden Age of science, rationality, and meritocracy - an age by and for ordinary men and women.

Now, to weaken the Force, you have to tilt to balance too far in one direction or another. Since it's much more feasible to plunge the universe to Darkness then haul it, kicking and screaming, into the Light, and because Revan was already sliding down the slope, she goes Sith. Capture and kill the Force Users, unify the galaxy under a clear hierarchy, and keep the infrastructure mostly intact while creating echoes and wounds in the Force to try and kill it.


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Old 09-10-2008, 05:09 PM   #29
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This kind of thing is why I think TSL is such a massive failure. They basically spat out everything Bioware had done (Not TOTALLY unreasonable, I daresay getting rid of some stuff makes good sense, but good grief, they threw the baby out with the bathwater) and basically ignored logic in favor of the bloody 'True Sith' plotline. I swear, if the True Sith turn out to be Yuuzhan Vong I'm going to find Avellone and eat his eyes.
Holy smokes! We actually agree here! TSL was such an awful mess. I've spent a lot of time and effort trying to make sense of it for fanfic purposes and think Avellone likely has the same view on Star Wars as David Brin! Just about everything on TSL is depressing, and if their goal was to take a gigantic whiz over the players of K1, they succeeded in spades.

__________________________________________________ _____
Now, as for the rest of the theory...
__________________________________________________ _____

Revan's "wreck the Force" agenda was secret. So secret Malak didn't even know about it. Telos was a test to see if Malak could handle the bigger picture, and Malak flunked the test. Saul Karath, OTOH, passed with flying colors.

So, when the Jedi strike team came aboard, and Malak took his cheap shot, it left the whole thing in flux. Your Revan May Vary, but I view the PC of K1 not as Revan, but as product of the Revan/Bastila Force Bond (which is another reason I tend not to play male. as it adds all sorts of incestuous overtones to the M!Revan/Bastia romance). Now this new life, this second chance, formed attachments and friendships. There were people who loved and cared for her because she was her, not because she could swing a saber or manipulate the Force. Playing K1 for the first time, my decision as to whether or not to be Dark or Light didn't come at the temple top. It came when Mission said, "Well, I trust you! I know you... and you're not Revan anymore. Whatever you used to be, you're one of us now! [...] Big Z and I will stick by you. We owe you our lives; we won't desert you now!"

Your Revan May vary; but mine didn't choose the Jedi. She chose the crew.

Flash forward a year, and she's being plagued by more bad dreams, more remnants from Revan's life. There's still something out there she has to fix; something Revan cut loose that needs to be stopped. Fearing for her loved ones, she vanishes into the night with the droids.

But I think she fell into a trap set by Traya, explaining how that misplaced Bene Gesserit got her mitts on the Hawk and the droids. Wherever Revan is now, it's not by her own free will.


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Old 09-10-2008, 05:29 PM   #30
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I think somebody here needs to point on the fact that David Brin is a nut, if his "analysis" of Star Wars is anything to go on.


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Old 09-10-2008, 05:38 PM   #31
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Yup, Brin is nutters. I picked up Star Wars on Trial, and it was his rantings mixed with Traya's that gave me the idea about Revan trying to bring about that "Golden Age of science and rationality."


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Old 09-10-2008, 07:09 PM   #32
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TSL was such an awful mess. I've spent a lot of time and effort trying to make sense of it for fanfic purposes and think Avellone likely has the same view on Star Wars as David Brin!
Read, and all shall be made clear. (Yes, it's long, but next to no one I knew who read it was complaining.)


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Old 09-10-2008, 07:30 PM   #33
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It's canon! Cannon go boom! The latter is more destructive, so therefore it has more N's.

As for everyone's thoughts on the game: I think the sequel had the potentially to be a really great game and, dare I say, even better than the first. I get this feeling every single time I play it, for about the first third of the game; but then it really sells out due to the incompleteness.

I like Allronix's theory regarding the "true Sith," however it has one major flaw: the canonical interpretation of bringing balance to the Force (i.e what George Lucas says on the issue) is that the light side is the true nature of the Force, and that the dark side is a perversion. The existence of the Sith -- primarily (if not exclusively) under the Rule of Two, I would add -- tipped the Force in the dark side's favor; it made the perversion, the unnatural use of the Force the prevalent one, while those who used the Force in the way it was meant to be used -- the Jedi -- grew weaker as the dark cloud that was the dark side of the Force enveloped and strangled the galaxy, blinding them and leaving them easily defeated. It took a being born of the Force to undo this imbalance -- the Chose One, Anakin Skywalker -- by doing away with the cancer in the body of the Force --the Sith -- that caused the disease to spread.


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Old 09-10-2008, 07:59 PM   #34
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but then it really sells out due to the incompleteness.

I do believe that most of the reasons which chaps use to explain why they regard KOTOR 1 as better than TSL are reasonable and justifiable, but if you are speaking in regards to the games' respective endings, then I dare say you have lost me, good sir.


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Old 09-10-2008, 08:01 PM   #35
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It's canon! Cannon go boom! The latter is more destructive, so therefore it has more N's.
Well there's an easy way for me to remember the difference... I used to think of it like Canon is a camera company. Pictures solidify that something took place.... Cannons tend to remove things from the future...

At any rate, the canon light side ending makes more sense. Lets see why would Revan NOT still use the Star Forge to create an army(well technically Navy) to go after the "True Sith" and instead destroy it himself... Next, Jedi have to still be in existence by the year 30BBY(Yeah I know more so than that, but at least guaranteed to be there by the movies).

Personally though as for canon, I always felt that the Female light side version made more sense for Revan, and the Male made more sense for the Exile. But Meh....
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Old 09-10-2008, 08:30 PM   #36
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I think they're best as both males, personally. The romance subplot with Bastila is so much more solid and rewarding than the one with Carth, I think. As the Exile, you just get so much more out of it with Brianna and the betrayal subplot with Atris. If I had it my way I'd retcon the Exile to be a male and Jaden Korr from Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy to be a female. (This is mainly because Jennifer Hale, who played the voice of Bastila, also played the voice of the female Jaden and did a superb job at it, whereas the guy absolutely sucked.)

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I do believe that most of the reasons which chaps use to explain why they regard KOTOR 1 as better than TSL are reasonable and justifiable, but if you are speaking in regards to the games' respective endings, then I dare say you have lost me, good sir.
What's not to understand? Basically I feel that The Sith Lords could have been a better game than Knights of the Old Republic was had they completed the game, but it bombed majorly because of that. I'm not referring to just the endings -- though that's a big part of it -- but the general feeling of incompleteness prevailing through most of the game.

I hope TSLRP can restore this game to its potential glory.


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Old 09-10-2008, 09:23 PM   #37
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The only part I don't get is the general argument that TSL doesn't have an ending, yet K1 does.


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Old 09-11-2008, 12:55 AM   #38
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What really bothers me is instead of going back and fixing TSL the guys at Lucasarts are going on to make another rushed game (K3 or whatever it ends up being) and then we will get another rushed buggy incomplete game to deal with. They dont even listen to their fans that say TSL is incomplete and flawed and they just do whatever theyre gonna do. I guess it begs the question why do you want to a buy a game from someone who not only does not complete what they start but doesnt give a rip of what the person thinks that theyre trying to sell it to.
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Old 09-11-2008, 04:38 PM   #39
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Yeah, just like they're not listening to us now when most of us are crying at the top of our lungs that an MMO is a terrible idea, and that we'd rather have KOTOR III.

But you know what? They had no reason to rush the release date. LucasArts made Obsidian wrap the game up in time for Christmas so as to boost sales; but what took place just six months later in May of 2005? The premier of Revenge of the Sith, that's what! Star Wars games skyrocketed in sales at that time. I had been planning on purchasing Republic Commando for a while, but was angry to see that its retail price had jumped back up significantly again. LucasArts had a goldmine opportunity as far as money goes, as well as a game that would have been mostly complete; but they squandered it. They couldn't think past Christmas of 2004.


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Old 09-20-2008, 03:48 AM   #40
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I'll admit that it seems more was achieved through the DS ending, not to mention it was a better playthrough and sequence at the end of the game imo.

And hopefully on the TSL & possible K3 rushed/bug problem, perhaps Lucasarts will fix the bugs and throw in the cut content for a special boxed set with KI (here's for wishful thinking anyway )?


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