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Old 09-20-2008, 06:16 AM   #41
Corinthian
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*Groan* It's 'canon', not 'cannon.'

Anyway, my big problem with TSL is that it took a classic Space Opera and went all Planescape on it. The Planescape Treatment is fine when you're dealing with something that is noted for dramatic depth or is original - hell, I'd be interested in someone Planescaping, say, Shadowrun. But Star Wars is, by design, pure entertainment. Knights of the Old Republic went the same way. I think Obsidian sacrificed the feel of Star Wars for the sake of having a deep and morally complex storyline. The problem with deep and complex storylines is that, for Jedi, Good and Evil is fairly clearly delineated. You have the Light Side, and the Dark Side. Now, if they had done this with a game where you DIDN'T play a Jedi, something in the vein of Republic Commando or Dark Forces, it might have been a different story. As it was, they entered the Galactic Arena in a place where we had already seen it way too many times and decided that they didn't like what they were seeing. Geez, it's like Legacy of the Force only without as much character derailment and absurdly sluggish aging.

The rest is just what you get when you change developers for a sequel. Or maybe it's just what you get when you use Obsidian - a pretty respectable game that trainwrecks in the final third.
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Old 09-20-2008, 11:10 AM   #42
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For me, the LS (canon) ending of TSL was very, very disappointing. I mean, I just spent however long regathering the Jedi Order, killing the Sith Triumverate, putting up with Kreia, almost getting cut off from the Force AGAIN, falling in love with Atton, and, hardest of all, put up with Vrook, and then I fly away into the pretty nebula to go find the True Sith? Um, excuse me? I know there's this selfless Jedi thing, but I'd appreciate a few days to sit back and relax, for goodness' sake! And tell me again: why can't I take Atton with me?

I find the DS ending much more satisfying. I get to rule the galaxy as the big bad Sith Lord, I get to toss the witchy-woman into the heart of Malachor, and I don't fly off into the pretty nebula. The only sad part is that Atton and I can't get together. That just stinks. Of course, Kreia said it, so what can I expect...


Chapter 12 of A Soul Adrift is out.

Short stories:
T'katlu: On the planet Felucia, a young apprentice of the Dark Side thinks back to the beginning of her training as she lies in wait for her prey...

All the Time: After four years in the Unknown Regions, the Exile returns to the known galaxy to visit an old enemy.

Broken: A master of the Dark Side finds himself about to lose the one thing he cares about--and he will do anything to stop her from endangering herself.
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Old 09-20-2008, 03:50 PM   #43
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Where in the game is there any indication whatsoever that the player takes over the Sith remnants if dark-sided?


"There is something going on in time and space, and beyond time and space, which, whether we like it or not, spells duty." -Winston Churchill

"For of all sad words of tongue or pen, The saddest are these: 'It might have been!'" -John Whittier

"Apathy is death." -Kreia
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Old 09-20-2008, 04:56 PM   #44
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Kreia said that I could either remain at the Academy and restart the Sith, or I could go help Revan. Since I didn't see the Ebon Hawk flying away into the nebula sunset at the end, I figured that the Exile remained on Malachor and restarted the Sith.


Chapter 12 of A Soul Adrift is out.

Short stories:
T'katlu: On the planet Felucia, a young apprentice of the Dark Side thinks back to the beginning of her training as she lies in wait for her prey...

All the Time: After four years in the Unknown Regions, the Exile returns to the known galaxy to visit an old enemy.

Broken: A master of the Dark Side finds himself about to lose the one thing he cares about--and he will do anything to stop her from endangering herself.
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Old 09-20-2008, 10:51 PM   #45
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Where in the game is there any indication whatsoever that the player takes over the Sith remnants if dark-sided?
wait till TSLRP comes out and you'll get your anwser
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Old 09-20-2008, 11:36 PM   #46
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"There is something going on in time and space, and beyond time and space, which, whether we like it or not, spells duty." -Winston Churchill

"For of all sad words of tongue or pen, The saddest are these: 'It might have been!'" -John Whittier

"Apathy is death." -Kreia
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Old 09-20-2008, 11:55 PM   #47
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Duke Nukem kind of looks like Matt LeBlanc there. "How you doin'?"

Anyway, there's TSLRP drama in plenty of threads. I'm sure we could just as easily avoid having it here.

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Old 09-21-2008, 12:02 AM   #48
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Actually, I think that any reference to it here at LF has mercifully been outlawed.


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Fix their home team score on the board to the debt clock, they can win every game 17,000,000,000,000 to 24. Losing team gets taxed by the IRS 100%, then droned."
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Old 09-21-2008, 07:51 AM   #49
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Brilliant

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Originally Posted by Inyri View Post
Duke Nukem kind of looks like Matt LeBlanc there. "How you doin'?"
I dunno.. give tk102 some of those glasses and a buzz-cut.. hmmmm

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Originally Posted by Inyri & Qliveur
Anyway, there's TSLRP drama in plenty of threads. I'm sure we could just as easily avoid having it here.

Actually, I think that any reference to it here at LF has mercifully been outlawed.
yes please


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Old 09-21-2008, 09:55 AM   #50
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Where in the game is there any indication whatsoever that the player takes over the Sith remnants if dark-sided?
wait till TSLRP comes out and you'll get your anwser
I believe he is asking --- Where in the game is there any indication about the player taking over the Sith remnants if dark-sided at this moment? He has a point. Knights 2 doesn't.
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Old 09-21-2008, 10:42 AM   #51
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Read, and all shall be made clear. (Yes, it's long, but next to no one I knew who read it was complaining.)
Hahaha. Great read. Now, I didn't read all of it, just skimmed through some of the passages. I love the way he mocks the game with all its (tiniest) flaws. xD
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Old 09-21-2008, 11:08 AM   #52
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Read the whole thing. It brings everything to light in an entertaining fashion. I think that the plot of TSL was great; it just wasn't very Star Warsy.


"They should rename the team to the Washington Government Sucks. Put Obama on the helmet. Line the entire walls of the stadium with the actual text of the ACA.
Fix their home team score on the board to the debt clock, they can win every game 17,000,000,000,000 to 24. Losing team gets taxed by the IRS 100%, then droned."
-Toker
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Old 11-13-2009, 10:18 AM   #53
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I just replayed K1 again, and it left me with the same questions. I didn't really explain my position the first time, so here's round two.

LS K1, Revan's supposed plan (according to Kreia) is a huge fail. The Republic is extremely weak, and his/her legions have been decapitated. Lacking a major military force, he/she goes off by him/herself to take out the True Sith? Totally unaccompanied, after going through all the trouble of converting half the Republic army to Revanism? lol

DS K1 makes even LESS sense. Revan brings the galaxy to it's knees, then leaves the core worlds untouched? Why in the world wouldn't he/she finish the job before leaving? Galaxy is militarily strong, on it's road to recovering politically and economically and would be ready when he/she came back to lead it's defense.

If LS, why isn't the Jedi Order standing strong in K2? LS or DS, what happened to the remaining Republic/Sith armies? If DS, the Sith army/navy had to be massive, and had the galaxy in a death grip. Nothing adds up. Two massive armies just disappeared, a war suddenly stopped, all the Jedi are gone, no explanation. The Nihilus hunting them down story doesn't make sense, as the council on Coruscant (core world) should have been mostly in tact, regardless of your ending.

I dunno. Maybe we'll get some answers in tOR. It'd be nice if we got a real K3 that somehow explained these major plot holes. lol
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Old 11-13-2009, 04:10 PM   #54
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If LS, why isn't the Jedi Order standing strong in K2? LS or DS, what happened to the remaining Republic/Sith armies? If DS, the Sith army/navy had to be massive, and had the galaxy in a death grip. Nothing adds up. Two massive armies just disappeared, a war suddenly stopped, all the Jedi are gone, no explanation. The Nihilus hunting them down story doesn't make sense, as the council on Coruscant (core world) should have been mostly in tact, regardless of your ending.

I dunno. Maybe we'll get some answers in tOR. It'd be nice if we got a real K3 that somehow explained these major plot holes. lol
Well lets see the reason in K2 the Jedi Order are in ruins is due to Darth Nihilus's attack on the enclave on Katarr which wiped out the majority of the survivors from Revans Civil War.

The Sith on the other hand turned on themselves without a leader to command them as Sion mentions during K2, he witnessed it first hand as the academy tore itself apart.


"Savior, conqueror, hero, villain. You are all things, Revan… and yet you are nothing. In the end, you belong to neither the light nor the darkness. You will forever stand alone."
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Old 11-14-2009, 12:51 PM   #55
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Well lets see the reason in K2 the Jedi Order are in ruins is due to Darth Nihilus's attack on the enclave on Katarr which wiped out the majority of the survivors from Revans Civil War.
Actually, the Jedi were almost gone even before that. Kreia tells in TSL that the Order had taken immense casualties during the war, even going so far as to claim that "barely a hundred Jedi remained". If that's the case, then Katarr was merely the straw that broke the camel's back; the Jedi Order was officially rendered inoperable, and its remaining members went into exile/hiding.


"There is something going on in time and space, and beyond time and space, which, whether we like it or not, spells duty." -Winston Churchill

"For of all sad words of tongue or pen, The saddest are these: 'It might have been!'" -John Whittier

"Apathy is death." -Kreia

Last edited by TKA-001; 11-15-2009 at 01:53 PM.
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Old 11-15-2009, 11:53 AM   #56
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First off, the True Sith was mentioned in K1 by of all people Canderous.

"The Sith came to us with an offer...."

That offer led to the Mandolorian Wars.

TSL-RCM restored as much as it could, but TSL was only meant to be the transitory game between 1 and 3. KOTOR3 never came out.

As to Revan's stupidity, you can blame the Jedi Council for that one.

At the end of TSL, I choose to let the future rest and leave Kreia to her death and not listen to her predicitons. That way, I can see the Exile is heading back into the Republic to restore the Jedi. Probably heading for Courscant or Illum.
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Old 11-15-2009, 04:42 PM   #57
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The armies didn't disapear without trace, it's mentioned when you get to Nar Shadda that once the war ended a lot of them found themselves without work. If DS, just asume the standard powerstruggle, if LS, consider that the republic is sorta low on cash, and until Nihilus arrives have little reason to keep a massive army.

As for Revan and Exiles actions, cannonically both are bat**** insane. Revan (aside from going LS) seems to think she is a god, while Exile sets out to track a needle in a haystack, a very pointed needle that doesen't seem to like him very much.

This is the reason why I pretend Revan was a semi-smart girl, went DS, and is now figthing the true sith with her armada guerrila style while bying time for the republic. Exile on the other hand is smart enough to stay, help rebuild the galaxy, and get the military going again. This would have the nice side effect (aside from halping save the day) of being a nice defence against Revan in case she's still pissed.
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Old 11-15-2009, 08:42 PM   #58
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I thought in any case for the Exile, the Exile eventually leaves to go and fight?

Even if Exile chose to keep Malachor V and not follow Revan, obviously the republic and the Jedi Order rebuilt (if ever so feebly of course ). So Exile did whatever he/she wanted to anyways. If at the time the Republic was dissolved...it only makes sense Exile would say "Meh, **** it--why not?" and go out to fight beyond the outer rim.

But if I missed anything, please correct me.
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Old 11-16-2009, 03:52 AM   #59
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Aside from A: why go off alone to the outer rim to fight an army? and B: especially since the only other person doing the same (Revan) isn't someone you seem to like (the feeling appears to be mutual).
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Old 11-16-2009, 04:22 PM   #60
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A: I suppose I should say explored. You're right--what was I thinking?

B: True--if in your case she was victorious and still pissed I suppose, lightside or dark, holding your grounds would probably be better. Her forces would have been exhausted.

You'd be real interesting to play chess against, murph.
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Old 11-17-2009, 02:16 AM   #61
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I always thought Revan took T3, HK, and the Hawk with him, but he was captured in the Unknown Regions which appeared as his death to HK, causing him to shut himself down, T3 then dragged HK on the hawk and piloted it back to the known regions to get help, it was probably already in poor repair from the Unknown Regions, and picked up by the Harbinger, after the sith killed everyone and Kreia took the Exile on board, it was attacked once more until it arrived at Peragus.
At least, that's one of two theories, of which I have because I remember only fuzzily the beginning of KoTOR II, but the second theory is this:
Same first half, but T3 instead piloted the Hawk to a planet, looking for credits to purchase repairs to the hawk, but could find no work, instead, he found the Exile who was looking for passage to another planet, as well as Kreia, but he found them in different places, which is why they did not know each other, anyway, he decided they'd be the best bets to getting credits and took them aboard, whereupon they were picked up by the Harbinger in space, before they were picked up, either Kreia or T3 voice locked the system so they would not be found out. Afterwards the rest of the story continued as the game said, harbinger crew slaughtered, kreia takes Exile on board, peragus, etc. etc.


"There is no way to be better than everyone else, but being kind and having a sense of humor certainly helps." -Me, my quote on life.
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Old 12-15-2009, 09:20 PM   #62
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The annoying thing about canon is that Star Wars industry is so huge there is always new canon which changes the context of old canon, effectively changing the backstory repeatedly.

Originally the heritage of the Sith was only directly touched by the Dark Horse comic series Tales of the Jedi, which expanded GL's original outline back in the 70's that Darth Vader's title (Darth was a name btw, not a title, he had no relation to the Skywalkers, was an ex-Guardsman of the Alderaanian Royal House and student of Ben Kenobi who was the Knight-General of the Guard on assignment for the Jedi Order), the Lord of the Sith inferred a backwater planet Darth was sent to in order to pacify a local dispute, where a Jedi Knight should've used diplomacy Darth used combat, and his shame is the title Lord of the Sith or Dark Lord of the Sith, which describes essentially his violent nature and the fact Ben Kenobi should never have brought him into the Order. In short the Sith were a low tech planetary populace Darth Vader subjugated in order to achieve his Jedi assignment.

As a Jedi Darth was only ever going to get pushed further into the background and eventually exiled for his violent, impatient nature and selfish greed. But an ambitious politician in the Core Worlds appealed to this greed, promising him vast power and influence if he helped him remove the Jedi Knights and take away the only true threat to securing a dictatorship. The planet Palpatine hailed from was a more warlike and industrialist planet than most and this alone made him a powerful senator.

So Darth betrayed and murdered most of the Jedi Knights, only Ben Kenobi escaped. His injuries were the result of hunting down the Jedi over a quarter of a century and meeting the more powerful ones in lightsabre duels. His role in this became Emissary of the Emperor, but he held only an aristocratic rank in ANH.

This brings us to the Dark Horse expansion. Firstly Lucas went and changed the story in ESB, he was undecided about Darth's claim of being Luke's father (resolved by RotJ), but tossed it in ambiguously (initially simply as a means of displaying how darksiders manipulate the emotions of those who oppose them for avantage...with half truths and outright lies to confuse and confound them, a childish but effective combat tactic), secondly he decided to make the Emperor a Force Sensitive darksider (later in RotJ he made him a full blown evil wizard as a plot device, committed Darth is Luke's father hook, and introduced the redemption theme).

The title Dark Lord of the Sith had of course stuck in the minds of fans although it was never mentioned in the OT. The entire Star Wars epic revolved around Jedi and dark Jedi, and an evil dictator of a corrupt Empire. There was no alien Force culture of evil called the Sith involved.

But this is what Dark Horse comics introduced in Tales of the Jedi.
What they did was take the Darth Vader Lord of the Sith abstract inferred by GL and made it bigger. They developed the abstract into a tale set thousands of years earlier, where a group of exiled dark Jedi found themselves upon a low tech world populated by a warlike species called the Sith. They dominated them easily and the Sith worshipped them as gods.

Over centuries the interbreeding between Sith and human darksider created the near-human Sith who crewed starships and populated the budding empire. Local systems were conquered, resources and industry requistioned, technology and superstition combined. Newly developed, matter-altering "alchemical" Force powers were developed and used to create monstrous war-beasts, lightsabre resistant swords, and Force resistant war-droids. The dark-Jedi and their Sith near-humans mostly based themselves on the colony of Korriban although the Sith homeworld, and the pure bred Sith originally conquered remained somewhere in the unknown regions.
The only Sith ever seen by the galaxy at large were the near-human cross breeds, some of these rising to the status of Lord.

Over more centuries the original Sith culture and bastardised teachings of the dark-Jedi had combined to form a new religion and Force culture. This was not unique, the were the Witches of Dathomir and other (EU) non-Jedi Force sensitives. The Miraluka were a race (introduced in Tales of the Jedi) who could see through the Force, and often sent disciples for Jedi training although they were extremely peaceful by nature and concentrated on healing disciplines (Miraluka Jedi often carried downgraded and short bladed lightsabres and used them only as a last resort, they created the Jedi class of "Jedi Healer" and were said almost capable of bringing someone back from the dead).
Several small cultures of Force Adepts existed throughout the galaxy.

So basically the "Sith Empire" developed its own new Force culture with new Force powers unknown by the Jedi Order. Only someone as ancient as Master Yoda would be aware of them until encountered, and he would never use them. Force Lightning is the classical example, but of course Sith Alchemy was introduced by Dark Horse and other EU have introduced other Sith-specialised powers.
It is worth noting that dark-Jedi are no longer the same thing as Sith following their creation of empire, because of these unique powers. Jedi do not learn to create life-destroying lightning, and dark-Jedi simply use normal Jedi abilities but aberrantly. Darth Vader is the classical dark-Jedi, using telekinesis to kill. Palpatine in RotJ is the classical Sith, using Force Lightning instead. For Darth Vader to learn to use Force Lightning, he would have to be shown how by Palpatine (or a Sith Holocron or similar).


This brings us back to the True Sith. That original homeworld in the unknown regions where the first dark-Jedi landed in exile.

Just as one could say these dark-Jedi absorbed Sith culture to form the Sith Empire, one could speculate the Sith too had learned to use the Force from these dark-Jedi, although to their low-tech, warlike and simpler minds it would be far more superstitious and corrupt in nature than any kind of Sith the galaxy is used to thus far, or the Jedi teachings.
One can only imagine, based upon powers like Force Lightning and Sith Alchemy what kind of reportoire of Force abilities these "True Sith" have developed over the millennia.

But...they probably still don't have the slightest clue what you do with a hydrospanner. I'd suggest this is their weakness. They would be technologically dependent, moreso than the Sith Empire we are all familiar with is technologically vampiric. I'd say they just use the same old stuff they happen across without any species interest whatsoever in traditional industry.

They'd get slaves for that.
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Old 12-16-2009, 05:14 PM   #63
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The annoying thing about canon is that Star Wars industry is so huge there is always new canon which changes the context of old canon, effectively changing the backstory repeatedly.
QFT.

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Old 12-18-2009, 07:41 AM   #64
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Yup. From good to bad to worse to awful.


"They should rename the team to the Washington Government Sucks. Put Obama on the helmet. Line the entire walls of the stadium with the actual text of the ACA.
Fix their home team score on the board to the debt clock, they can win every game 17,000,000,000,000 to 24. Losing team gets taxed by the IRS 100%, then droned."
-Toker
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Old 12-19-2009, 05:48 AM   #65
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I think it comes down to different subcultures of entertainment media. I really like the gritty atmosphere of the original book release of Star Wars (released about the time the movie came out I think, written by GL before or during production).

It had all the feel of any sword & sorcery fantasy trilogy, I was in primary school and absolutely spellbound by it (my teacher said at the parent-teacher night she thought it was too advanced in concepts for children my age, I remember). I also remember the vivid description of Leia's blaster shot melting the faceplate of a Stormtrooper into his flesh, searing bone and boiling his brain, naturally he was killed instantly. Descriptions of Stormtrooper blasters on Luke's adoptive family were similarly vivid, the nauseating stench of their burned and cooked bodies described adequately.

It's not exactly Ewoks and Jar Jar Binks.

Hence I like very much the Dark Horse style in EU. But other fans like the Ewoks, much of the target market is young audiences with conservative parents. Some people like cartoonish humour and happy go lucky characters, others prefer cynical antiheroes and great tragedies.

I like gritty fantasy with dark overtones, cynical humour and yet a moving story with passion, logic and closure. Others like lollipops, fairy godmothers and perfumed daisies.

LucasArts burns the candle at both ends, and tries to secure every available marketplace, some are really mutually exclusive when you think about it, and so in doing this Star Wars canon becomes confused and variously schizophrenic.

Most EU I stay away from. The Dark Horse material is the only EU I felt captured my inspiration in Star Wars, whether Tales of the Jedi series or Dark Empire. That and tabletop SWRPG about 1995, which had all the Dark Horse expansions and really got into all the new tech (from Old Republic era stuff to post-Endor and everything in between).

So all up I'm a bit selective about what I include as canon to my mind. Most EU I just ignore. Kotor sticks roughly to my favourite canon, Wookieepedia doesn't.

I especially love the Tales of the Old Republic expansion for SWRPG based on the Dark Horse series, which featured the specialised Jedi subclasses and Prestige classes, from Jedi Healer (who had low powered orange lightsabres), to Jedi Battlemaster (who had twin blue lightsabres and body armour), and the Sith Adept, Sith Warrior and Sith Lord prestige classes, and the Dark Side Marauder non-lightsabre wielding Force user (basically a Soldier template with some rudimentary powers and a dark side requirement, neither Jedi nor Sith but quixotic).

There was a special way to become a Sith, and it explained why Jedi so often became Sith.
To become a Sith Adept you had to be a Force user, but there are non-Jedi Force Adepts whom could do this. Most Sith Adepts are non-Jedi Force Adepts, they form the lieutanants of the Sith Lords and technically have greater authority (and more powers) than the Sith Warrior. They can learn to use lightsabre feats as they advance so are a bit like a Consular Jedi Padawan.

Becoming a Sith Warriors was difficult and required proficiency in combat as well as Force abilities. A normal Force Adept would have to multiclass to the Soldier class to become one. It is not very realistic for a Sith Adept to become a Sith Warrior (fails the combat table requirements). But a low level Jedi could become one. Sith Warriors start off with alchemical Sithswords (resists lightsabre damage) but automatically gain lightsabre feats as they progress, becoming as powerful as any Jedi Guardian with some special abilities tossed in for good measure.

To become a Sith Lord you had to be a high level Sith Adept or Sith Warrior, with lightsabre feats. This would require essentially that you were once a Force Adept and became a Sith Adept, or were once a Dark Side Marauder or dual class Soldier/Force Adept and became a Sith Warrior. Basically you're looking at only high level characters are allowed...except Jedi. Even a medium level Jedi can become a Sith Lord if he has a dark side leaning and spends a feat selection learning Sith Lore (which allows one to become a Sith class).
It is actually easier for dark-Jedi to become Sith Lords than it is for any non-Jedi including other Force using Sith.

It's quite a temptation for a medium level Jedi who's leaning to the dark side. You can be given the power and authority of the highest echelon of the Sith just for signing up. If you were Sith you'd spend an entire career trying to get there.

See I love all this gritty style of canon.
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Old 12-30-2009, 04:25 PM   #66
Tobias Reiper
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Originally Posted by jonathan7 View Post
I say the same for darkside
Indeed, you get betrayed and nearly murdered once, and you want to take that chance again?
No thank you.
But it's not like deciding to go and fight the true sith alone made any bloody sense at all, because he then left the Republic alone and as you clearly see in TSL, The Republic can't do very well on it's own, in fact, they even say somewhere that they NEEDED Revan to help them, so rather than doing the original thing and you know, preparing the galaxy, he decides to leave them to die and do it himself.
I think by TOR we can see that he epic failed.


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