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Old 06-19-2008, 08:01 PM   #1
Robondacob
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Heavy Spoilers: Why were they forced to be darkside?

I just played through TSL and I have no idea why these people at Malachor V were forced to die or turn dark side. It does not make sense that because a lot of people die that everyone else turns dark side. What about Taris? A whole entire planet destroyed, yet no one else was forced to turn evil.

It just doesn't make sense to me, and I would like a better explanation.
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Old 06-20-2008, 03:43 PM   #2
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Indeed no one else turned evil, that's why no one survided on Taris


More seriously, there is something about Malachor V itself. Revan was the only person who was not completly consumed by the Dark Side while walking upon its surface, yet he still started to do questionnable things after this first visit. And no victim on Taris were Jedi, so there wasn't any Light Sider to convert during the bombing.
And there is the way people died or suffered. On Taris, the worst that could happen to you was being trapped in a burning building rather than being gunned down directly, on Malachor, you had this gravity-thing you could not escape, you were unable to run away, yet you were feeling everybody around you dying in terrible pain, while you could not even breath.

I think the main things are that 1/no Jedi to convert were on Taris and 2/Malachor naturally has a Dark Side aura.


"Do you think I seek the death of all living things? There is no victory in such things.
I do not want to win our war like this, little Jedi. When I win, I wish it to be because I was right, my teachings true.
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- Kreia, Jedi Master, Sith Lord
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Old 06-20-2008, 03:52 PM   #3
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Indeed no one else turned evil, that's why no one survided on Taris


More seriously, there is something about Malachor V itself. Revan was the only person who was not completly consumed by the Dark Side while walking upon its surface, yet he still started to do questionnable things after this first visit. And no victim on Taris were Jedi, so there wasn't any Light Sider to convert during the bombing.
And there is the way people died or suffered. On Taris, the worst that could happen to you was being trapped in a burning building rather than being gunned down directly, on Malachor, you had this gravity-thing you could not escape, you were unable to run away, yet you were feeling everybody around you dying in terrible pain, while you could not even breath.

I think the main things are that 1/no Jedi to convert were on Taris and 2/Malachor naturally has a Dark Side aura.
So you have to be a Jedi in order to turn to the dark side? I don't really understand any of that. What exactly did the Mass Shadow Generator do?
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Old 06-20-2008, 03:57 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Gavroche View Post
Revan was the only person who was not completly consumed by the Dark Side while walking upon its surface
This is Kreia's opinion, not fact.

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Originally Posted by Robondacob View Post
So you have to be a Jedi in order to turn to the dark side? I don't really understand any of that. What exactly did the Mass Shadow Generator do?
The Mass Shadow Generator just warped the planet's gravity well, crushing everyone. As for needing to be a Jedi in order to fall to the dark side, I disagree; there were those like Saul that "fell" after Malachor.


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Old 06-20-2008, 04:03 PM   #5
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So what is different between Taris and Malachor V?

I have to think that at least some people survived Taris. Why wouldn't they die from being exposed to tons of people dieing?
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Old 06-20-2008, 04:41 PM   #6
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I don't think a person can survive the destruction of a planet's surface.


"There is something going on in time and space, and beyond time and space, which, whether we like it or not, spells duty." -Winston Churchill

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Old 06-20-2008, 04:42 PM   #7
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The Mass Shadow Generator.

That's the main difference that I can point out. With the Grav. Well of Malachor V being greatly expanded, it did weird things to the planet. I somehow get the feeling that those Stormbeasts weren't natural, nor were the great ravines and pits that dotted the entire planet.

Also, Trayus Academy was there. I don't know when it was set up (I don't remember if it was mentioned in the game at all) but it is a corrupting influence and it might've been there even before the Wars.

Also, Revan led the fleets in hunt of the last Mandalorians. He probably slipped deeper and deeper into the madness of the Dark Side. He also probably ended up killing those who didn't use the Dark Side.

Also, the Exile was at Malachor V and wasn't twisted by the Dark Side, so it cannot be said that Malachor V alone twisted people to the Dark Side.
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Old 06-20-2008, 06:11 PM   #8
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I don't think a person can survive the destruction of a planet's surface.
Oh, I'm sure that some survived.

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Old 06-20-2008, 06:19 PM   #9
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Also, the Exile was at Malachor V and wasn't twisted by the Dark Side, so it cannot be said that Malachor V alone twisted people to the Dark Side.
The Exile is the exception that proves the rule.


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Old 06-20-2008, 07:07 PM   #10
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Oh, I'm sure that some survived.


"There is something going on in time and space, and beyond time and space, which, whether we like it or not, spells duty." -Winston Churchill

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"Apathy is death." -Kreia
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Old 06-20-2008, 07:48 PM   #11
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There is no way that turrets from a ship could destroy every single part of a planet.
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Old 06-20-2008, 08:21 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Robondacob View Post
There is no way that turrets from a ship could destroy every single part of a planet.
Probably not, but it sure did a lot of damage. You only see the Upper City get blown to shreds, maybe if the camera showed some part of the Undercity blowing up too I'd be more convinced.


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Old 06-20-2008, 09:36 PM   #13
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There is no way that turrets from a ship could destroy every single part of a planet.
Why not? The Leviathan's class of ship has a decent amount of turbolasers in addition to its turrets, and there was a fleet of ships of that class orbiting the planet. After all, a single Imperial I-class Star Destroyer can destroy a planet's surface in less than a day, so it's not like such an operation is unheard of with fleets of similar vessels, even if they are far in the past. Telos' surface was completely destroyed, which provides evidence that the Sith possessed fleets with firepower capable of such attacks. Look at it this way: if the Sith fleet wasn't capable of at least demolishing the entire city, including the undercity levels, then there would have been no reason for Malak to expect randomly bombarding the planet to work.

However, I digress.


"There is something going on in time and space, and beyond time and space, which, whether we like it or not, spells duty." -Winston Churchill

"For of all sad words of tongue or pen, The saddest are these: 'It might have been!'" -John Whittier

"Apathy is death." -Kreia
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Old 06-20-2008, 11:40 PM   #14
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Why not? The Leviathan's class of ship has a decent amount of turbolasers in addition to its turrets, and there was a fleet of ships of that class orbiting the planet. After all, a single Imperial I-class Star Destroyer can destroy a planet's surface in less than a day, so it's not like such an operation is unheard of with fleets of similar vessels, even if they are far in the past. Telos' surface was completely destroyed, which provides evidence that the Sith possessed fleets with firepower capable of such attacks. Look at it this way: if the Sith fleet wasn't capable of at least demolishing the entire city, including the undercity levels, then there would have been no reason for Malak to expect randomly bombarding the planet to work.
Well that is true. But you have to think, are there survivors from massive Earthquakes, nuclear weapon attacks, hurricanes? I know that they are not on the same scale, but I am pretty sure that some survived. I know that Calo Nord survived. I know that Revan and his crew survived, and I am sure that some of the citizens of Taris survived as well.

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Old 06-21-2008, 01:12 AM   #15
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Okay. So Taris wasn't completely destroyed, but the fact remains that there is no reason that someone should be forced by the, err, Force, to become evil just because of people dieing.

If there is a better explanation, I think that Kreia and the Jedi Council are lieing.
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Old 06-21-2008, 02:47 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Robondacob View Post
the fact remains that there is no reason that someone should be forced by the, err, Force, to become evil just because of people dieing.
Perhaps this'll help explain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scorchy
“Observation: It was not something discussed with much of the others, but I think Revan recognized that a single Jedi, both in the past and in the present, could turn the tide of a conflict. So my targets were frequently Jedi, or someone close to a Jedi that could result in their corruption or collapse. Revan often assigned me to kill leaders or supporters of certain Jedi so as to erode their will.”

“Why was that important?”



“Observation: It is a curious thing to assassinate and wound someone's personality, to assassinate them psychologically, and it took me some time to reconcile the acts."

“So you're saying Revan intended to break the Jedi?”

“Observation: Master, that was the lesson of Malachor. Any Jedi involved in the systematic slaughter on such a scale cannot help but doubt and question themselves.”

“Revan ordered us to kill Mandalorians at Malachor, not Jedi.”



So here we come to the crux of the retcon job that Obsidian on the Revan character. In KOTOR 1, the war was waged flat out against the Mandalorians. Revan won, Mandalorians lost, period. Here, they discuss the notion that the war itself didn’t even matter; that it was just ground zero in Revan’s grand war of beliefs.

There’s a moment in the first game, on the planet Kashyyyk, when a computer gives the player what amounted to an ethics quiz. One of the questions concerned a dogmatically peaceful planet about to be attacked by an invading force. You, as the leader of the planet, have been given warning about the impeding strike; what do you do?

The ‘correct’ answer was to do nothing. The casualties and the destruction would have galvanized public support for a war, which would have allowed you the authority to retaliate and end the threat. It’s a Winston Churchill moment, but it’s also paralleled here in the reveal that Revan deliberately killed thousands of his own troops simply to sway hearts and minds to his cause.



If you read in between the lines here, it says a lot about the relationship between the Exile and Revan.



{snip}

“Statement: Overwhelming odds is also a good tactic, master. There are few Jedi that can long hold their ground against a hundred attackers all firing at once... or being turned on by their own troops. But the most effective weapon against Jedi seems to be the erosion of the spirit.”

“What do you mean?”

“Answer: Revan claimed that psychological warfare against Jedi was important because much of their power comes from their state of mind, their connection to this religion called the "Force." Revan said that many Jedi have the capability to form connections to life around them, although few of them realized the extent to which this is possible.”

{snip}





“The emotional weight of war changed Jedi morale, power, and eventually, their allegiance. Conclusion: I believe the Mandalorian Wars were to beat the Mandalorians and also to allow Revan to build the foundation of his army.”



“But I am surprised you have not already arrived at this conclusion.”




Was this really what happened after Malachor V?

Did Jesus [the name of Scorchy's character] waltz halfway around the galaxy searching for existentialist answers from other Jedi Masters, only to find them from a rusty old droid?
If that didn't make complete sense, pardon the lack of context - it's only a part of the entire LP. But I'm feeling too laaaaaaazy right now to type an explanation myself. :P


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Originally Posted by Sabretooth
We will be great failures one day, you and I
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Old 06-21-2008, 03:07 AM   #17
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Okay. I understand that Jedi use their mind (that's why the Jedi teach peace, in order to keep control of the force, while the Dark Jedi use their wild emotions for power) for their powers. A problem with the whole "I killed a lot of people so now people are either insane loyal to me or dead" is that they still die. Did Revan's supporters kill them? What happened to them?
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Old 06-21-2008, 03:53 AM   #18
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That's not explained in terribly much depth, but I theorize Revan intentionally placed them on the ships that would be in the most danger (which was closest to Malachor). When the MSG went off they were killed along with everyone else who was close enough to the planet.

The balance probably died from the sheer shock of all the soldiers and other Jedi they'd served with being killed all at once in great pain. A planet's worth of people Obi-Wan had no connection to dying lightyears away was enough to fatigue him, after all. Dozens of intimate people coupled with the deaths of millions more at once could probably cause death. I'd imagine the dark side's presence on the planet below also helped toward that end.

I dislike the latter explanation, though, because it doesn't explain how the Exile managed to survive where all his peers died. You could assume he was the only one strong enough to, but I hate it when a fundamental part of the player's history rests on them being stronger than everyone else.


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Old 06-21-2008, 04:49 AM   #19
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I don't know if this adds anything to this thread but...

Before you can turn Sith, I believe it's required that you crave it's power out of neccesity (No way I spelled that right). It becomes an addiction afterwards.

For example, Exar Kun was corrupted when he needed to draw on the power of the Dark Side when he was burried alive in a tomb. All of his bones broken. It was his only option to survive.
But by 'needing it' he became addicted and a Sith Lord.
Same goes for Vader, who needed the power to save his wife and needed the Dark Side to keep him alive after his 'unfortunate smelting accident.'

So...maybe by bombing those Jedi to death, they were offered a choice:
-Die. Since no Jedi technique or power can keep you alive that way. Only hate can heal you/keep your broken body together.
-Live and embrace the Dark Side to obtain the powers used to survive.

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Old 06-21-2008, 01:38 PM   #20
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^ The only problem with that theory is that non-force users survived. They can't use the Dark Side to survive, if they can't even use the force right?

Also, if Jedi were fatigued by people dieing, why wouldn't the Dark Jedi also be fatigued too? What makes them different from the Jedi?
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Old 06-21-2008, 04:06 PM   #21
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Also, if Jedi were fatigued by people dieing, why wouldn't the Dark Jedi also be fatigued too? What makes them different from the Jedi?
Well, the two groups are different. One, wants death, while the other wants life...I guess. They have different views. I'm not sure if that was much help...

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Old 06-21-2008, 06:26 PM   #22
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My interpretation has always been that the death of so many people was overwhelming to those whose connection to the Force leaned toward the Light Side. Think of how Obi-Wan reacts to Alderaan getting blown up, then consider that the effect is inversely proportional to the cube of the distance.

Or maybe that a more personal connection to those being killed, both allies and enemies (the whole know your enemy thing Kreia and Handmaiden go through), magnified the effect.

Basically, Jedi who respected life for its own sake, the Light Siders, were so overwhelmed by the effects on the Force from so many people dying that they perished from leaving themselves open to the Force "feedback" from so many deaths.

Those Jedi who leaned Dark Side didn't share the same respect for life that the Light Siders did and therefore weren't as adversely affected; Malachor also reinforced the idea that "necessary casualties" are a means to secure greater power.

As a corollary to the Obi-Wan example...as far as I know, Vader wasn't so drastically affected by Alderaan's destruction, and he had a front-row seat.

The Exile took a different approach--she cut herself off from the Force so she couldn't get that Force feedback from all the deaths she was (in part) responsible for.
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Old 06-21-2008, 09:16 PM   #23
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My interpretation has always been that the death of so many people was overwhelming to those whose connection to the Force leaned toward the Light Side. Think of how Obi-Wan reacts to Alderaan getting blown up, then consider that the effect is inversely proportional to the cube of the distance.

Or maybe that a more personal connection to those being killed, both allies and enemies (the whole know your enemy thing Kreia and Handmaiden go through), magnified the effect.

Basically, Jedi who respected life for its own sake, the Light Siders, were so overwhelmed by the effects on the Force from so many people dying that they perished from leaving themselves open to the Force "feedback" from so many deaths.

Those Jedi who leaned Dark Side didn't share the same respect for life that the Light Siders did and therefore weren't as adversely affected; Malachor also reinforced the idea that "necessary casualties" are a means to secure greater power.

As a corollary to the Obi-Wan example...as far as I know, Vader wasn't so drastically affected by Alderaan's destruction, and he had a front-row seat.

The Exile took a different approach--she cut herself off from the Force so she couldn't get that Force feedback from all the deaths she was (in part) responsible for.
One problem with that, the Force is the Force. It is not light or dark. People can twist it for their own dark use or light use. So if Dark Jedi are not affected by these deaths, that would mean that they are trained for these types of things (which the Jedi try to do too), or, more believably, something about their dark powers (using the Force) allows them to block it out. That's just my guess using that logic.
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Old 06-22-2008, 11:54 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Robondacob
One problem with that, the Force is the Force. It is not light or dark. People can twist it for their own dark use or light use. So if Dark Jedi are not affected by these deaths, that would mean that they are trained for these types of things (which the Jedi try to do too), or, more believably, something about their dark powers (using the Force) allows them to block it out. That's just my guess using that logic.
That would be the Potenium theory, my friend. Never proven as fact, and even if it has some merit, Lucas himself (along with almost every Star Wars work) that the Force has a Light and Dark side. This is evidenced all the time... if you have ever read the Clone Wars comics, there is a part after the battle of Jabiim where Anakin was trying to keep a Jedi alive by using the (Dark Side of the) Force to pump her heart for her. Basically Force Choke, but on her arteries and vertices, on and off. It caused her great pain, and she later died anyway, but Anakin didn't want her to suffer. If it is simply intention, than using the Dark Side 'for good' like in that case (it is subjective) would be pretty much impossible. Sorry, but... the Potenium thing is another debate altogether.
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Old 06-22-2008, 12:25 PM   #25
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Never proven as fact, and even if it has some merit
It has no merit whλtsoever. The dark side is destructive and corrupts. Exar Kun is proof of that: he turned to the dark side solely because he was corrupted from using the dark side's powers, which gradually twisted his allegiance and agenda. That's what the dark side does to people, as it did at Malachor. It always gets under my skin when people ignore this, because the movies and a lot of the EU makes the nature of the dark side very obvious.


"There is something going on in time and space, and beyond time and space, which, whether we like it or not, spells duty." -Winston Churchill

"For of all sad words of tongue or pen, The saddest are these: 'It might have been!'" -John Whittier

"Apathy is death." -Kreia
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Old 06-23-2008, 11:44 AM   #26
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So there is Light Force and Dark Force? I don't get this deep Star Wars stuff. I just like playing the games.
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Old 06-23-2008, 08:34 PM   #27
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It shouldn't be to hard to understand Star Wars.


Error in REALITY.SYS. Run BIG_BANG.EXE (Y/N)?

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Old 10-27-2008, 07:20 PM   #28
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In TSL, Mandalore is telling the Exile that Malachor V was a taboo world to the Mandalorians and that they only get there to fight because Revan had lured them with most of the Republic's feet.
Maybe there was already something twisted with Malachor V that the use of the generator only strengthened.
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Old 10-28-2008, 02:19 PM   #29
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It shouldn't be to hard to understand Star Wars.
This is why I like KotOR. There are so many shades of grey.
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Old 11-02-2008, 02:59 PM   #30
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TSL doesn't make it entirely clear about this. Why would atrocitys cause crippling ripples in the force in some instances and not others? The best anwer is that the effect is magnified by Malachor specifically. There are a couple of hints to this explanation, but nobody comes out and states it outright if I recall. Which explains why Bastila and Revan didn't die or somethng after Taris was sacked. Otherwise there is a significant plothole.
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Old 05-19-2009, 10:05 AM   #31
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Ancient thread resurrection...sort of. It's still on the front page.

Just a small point. There was never a Light Force and a Dark Force. There is the Force and there is the Dark Side of the Force. Clear canon. The Force is neutral.

However the Force is the byproduct of mass-energy as described by Yoda and Qui Gon. So far canon suggests only Lightsiders (Jedi) and Darksiders (Sith) can manipulate it. For everybody else it is like oxygen. There and essential plus integral to life but completely taken for granted, totally unrecognised independently, non-distinct from the air or water that it is needed to create.

Jedi are like the scientists who contemplate oxygen, and can utilise it to produce other things. The Sith are like evil politicians and businessmen whose only interest is personal gain no matter how much social destruction is caused. They turn the efforts of scientists to their own ends.

Turning to the Dark Side is simply stated, "a servant of evil" by Ben Kenobi.
The fact Jedi turn to the Dark Side is a statement that it is your actions which decide which side you are on and not your beliefs or intentions (the road to hell being paved with good ones as the saying goes).

At Malachor or anywhere else, righteous slaughter is still slaughter. Hence the Jedi use the Force only for defence. Those who went against the wishes of the Jedi Council to fight in the Mandalorian Wars simply abandoned this most crucial precept. They became "righteous" murderers and the reality of such things does not set in immediately. First you justify it, then there is a wierd sense of disatisfaction with your chosen course. You thought you were so right and all of a sudden you don't feel so good about it. Then it begins to settle in. The wracking guilt. The images. The brutalisation of friends. Eventually simply the images of everybody's brutalisation, friend and foe alike will tear you apart. So what will you do? Accept that you were a Darksider, or become one running from it.

But then there is the other Darksider. The Sith, the willing participant. Oh sure he had no choice. Broken and dying you were given the opportunity, would you rape your own mother to survive? Or accept your fate as the universe dictates. Many make the wrong call, and quickly discover they kinda like it, you know once you get over that initial disgust with yourself.
Of course they do, it is animal of them. We are all animals. Hence the ethical have codes to determine never to fall so far. The wonton...just a mockery of them.

Dark Side, what is it? It is you. Fallen. It is what you were before you were lifted. It is that primordeal place before morality. It is nothing more, but it is always very close. And it is pure evil.

Revan at Malachor. Well. He was a Sith. He conscripted the MSG. Hell for that he was a Sith Lord, even Malak might never have gone so far...at least until somebody else did first. He was a bit of a weed, Malak, never first through the door but willing nonetheless.

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