lfnetwork.com mark read register faq members calendar
View Poll Results: Which is your favorite?
Atris 10 8.00%
Dorak 2 1.60%
Kavar 41 32.80%
Vandar 26 20.80%
Vash 18 14.40%
Vrook 10 8.00%
Zez-Kai Ell 10 8.00%
Zhar 8 6.40%
Voters: 125. You may not vote on this poll


Thread: Which Council Member?
Thread Tools Display Modes
Post a new thread. Add a reply to this thread. Indicate all threads in this forum as read. Subscribe to this forum. RSS feed: this forum RSS feed: all forums
Old 03-04-2009, 06:09 PM   #161
Kjølen
Resident Polak
 
Kjølen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 4,916
Current Game: Monkey Island
10 year veteran! Forum Veteran Folder extraordinaire 
I liked Zhar because he taught you (Revan) much on your return to Dantooine and in my opinion, by Twi'lek male standards, he wasn't a total slimeball. I guess I'm prejudiced against male Twi'leks that way, but Zhar was probably one of the kindest and more mild of the Dantooine Council members.


"Kjølen is a pretty cool guy. 'e doesn't afraid of anything and 'e doesn't anything about anything."
―Kjølen

* Ye Olde Harbour * Aresen *
Kjølen is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 03-06-2009, 02:45 AM   #162
Jeff
Rating: Awesome
 
Jeff's Avatar
 
Status: Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Chicago, IL, USA
Posts: 8,431
Current Game: SWTOR
Imperialist Meatbags Guild Officer The Walking Carpets Guild Officer Notable contributor LFN Staff Member 
I think Kavar is a pretty cool guy, eh does debates and doesn't afraid of anything. But really, I probably liked Kavar the best just because he seemed the most helpful to you and wasn't always condescending.


Follow me on Twitter
Follow StarWarsMMO.net on Twitter | Like us on Facebook
Jeff is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 03-12-2009, 03:43 AM   #163
Darth Avlectus
If Sunday you're free...
 
Darth Avlectus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Why don't you come with me...
Posts: 4,267
Current Game: Poisoning pigeons in the park.
I see myself personally as a weaponsmanster since I am already a swordsman in real life. However, on a personality level...I am like master Vrook only a bit more creative and at least I try to be 'kind of' likable. I'd imagine I would probably agree with him 1/4 the time, 1/2 of the time indifferent, and the last 1/4 I'd want to rip his ****ing head off and **** down his neck. I'd have my own ideas.

I guess I'd jive with his mentality of competence. Strong and capable. His high standards is something everyone ought to strive for. Even if we don't see eye to eye.
Darth Avlectus is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 03-12-2009, 02:59 PM   #164
TheJedi76
Lurker
 
TheJedi76's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 9
Okay, pink Twi'leks!

That's one reason that I chose him, the other, I don't entirely know why.

Zhar is sweet.
TheJedi76 is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 03-12-2009, 08:38 PM   #165
Darth_Yuthura
Banned
 
Status: Banned
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Vienna
Posts: 1,585
Current Game: KOTOR III
I guess I'm surprised that there are so many who voted for the 'faceless' masters as I come to view them. Zhar, Vandar, Vash, and Dorak are all really lacking in character or personality to a great extent. Although the restored content would have given you a chance to interact with Vash, so I see why she got votes. Vandar just reminds people of Yoda, I think. Zhar and Dorak are alright, but barely any personality at all.

Atris/Vrook condescending/arrogant and evil/cruel

Kavar/ZKE/Vash these are the only Masters who really didn't become too overconfident to think they were above making mistakes. That's why they were the only likable Masters in the game.
Darth_Yuthura is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 03-12-2009, 09:15 PM   #166
TKA-001
I sneer at thee.
 
TKA-001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,535
Forum Veteran 
I keep forgetting where Vrook does anything cruel to anyone, or where Atris does anything evil before the events of KotOR 2.


"There is something going on in time and space, and beyond time and space, which, whether we like it or not, spells duty." -Winston Churchill

"For of all sad words of tongue or pen, The saddest are these: 'It might have been!'" -John Whittier

"Apathy is death." -Kreia
TKA-001 is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 03-12-2009, 09:22 PM   #167
TheJedi76
Lurker
 
TheJedi76's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 9
Quote:
Originally Posted by TKA-001 View Post
I keep forgetting where Vrook does anything cruel to anyone,

Vrook's just a complete dick.
TheJedi76 is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 03-12-2009, 11:32 PM   #168
Darth_Yuthura
Banned
 
Status: Banned
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Vienna
Posts: 1,585
Current Game: KOTOR III
Quote:
Originally Posted by TKA-001 View Post
I keep forgetting where Vrook does anything cruel to anyone, or where Atris does anything evil before the events of KotOR 2.
Let's see, Vrook wanted nothing more than to punish the Exile not once, but twice condemning her, despite doing what the Council was too afraid to do. He went against his subordinates for doing what they thought was right instead of realizing that he and the Council were the fuel instigating Revan's rise to power. After refusing to acknowledge his fault, he yet again kept shifting blame away from himself and the Council. He doesn't follow the Jedi code... always such an angry... so biassed... so prejudicial... need I go on?

Atris: Katarr? Mass murderer before KOTOR II. Only thing that could have redeemed her would have been to go to Katarr and die with the others.
Darth_Yuthura is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 03-13-2009, 10:06 AM   #169
TKA-001
I sneer at thee.
 
TKA-001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,535
Forum Veteran 
Quote:
Let's see, Vrook wanted nothing more than to punish the Exile not once, but twice condemning her, despite doing what the Council was too afraid to do.
More irrelevant filler about how brave the Exile was compared to the evil meany Jedi Council, and how unfair Vrook was to every character that you like, ignoring any reasons he had for his behavior other than your made-up ones about fear and pettiness and "unjustified" condemnation. You are attempting to outright demonize this character, and you bend the facts in order to do so.

Quote:
He went against his subordinates for doing what they thought was right instead of realizing that he and the Council were the fuel instigating Revan's rise to power.
How many times do we need to go over this? Revan chose to lead the Crusaders in the war, Revan chose to turn them to the dark side, and Revan chose to start the Jedi Civil War. Vrook, and for that matter, everyone else on the Council as well, were just another element of the situation; They didn't control Revan's actions or "force his hand". I suppose you think the Destruction of Malachor V was the Council's fault as well, because they "left Revan no choice".

Quote:
After refusing to acknowledge his fault, he yet again kept shifting blame away from himself and the Council.
What is so contemptible about a person believing that they're right and not thinking that they're to blame? Everybody does that (this goes without saying, but "everybody" includes the great and noble Sir Revan and Sir Exile). Nobody does something willingly if they don't think that they're right. Vrook doesn't acknowledge any fault because he doesn't believe he was wrong (nor was he, because his suspicions of Revan and the Exile were both justified in all cases). Why are some characters immune to the corruption brought on by thinking that they're right, but Vrook isn't?

Quote:
He doesn't follow the Jedi code... always such an angry... so biassed... so prejudicial... need I go on?
No, you don't need to go on, because you somehow managed to write an entire paragraph without actually listing a single cruel or immoral thing that Vrook does (I've read your fan fiction. Are you sure you're looking at the game, instead of that?). I can only assume that the reason for this is that to you, staying true to one's beliefs and standing up for what one believes is right regardless of the opposition (a virtue that you ironically apply so thickly with praise to Revan and the Exile) translates to "anger, bias, prejudice, and hypocrisy," as long as the character in question disagrees with Revan and the Exile, of course, because they are never wrong.

Quote:
Atris: Katarr? Mass murderer before KOTOR II. Only thing that could have redeemed her would have been to go to Katarr and die with the others.
Atris called the meeting in order to draw Nihilus to Katarr, so that the Jedi could kill him, not the other way around. While it is true that making this move without telling anyone and without knowing more about Nihilus was reckless and dangerous (as the result proved), Atris was not personally responsible for the destruction of Katarr any more than the other Jedi (Vandar, Zhar, etcetera) at the planet were. Despite the flaws of the plan, her intentions did not in any way involve "mass murder", as you spitefully put it, and she neither gave the order, nor pulled the trigger (figuratively or literally).

Ooh, here's an interesting comparison. Atris arranged for the meeting on Katarr because she thought that the risks were justified because it was the only known way to stop a horrendously evil, unknown threat and the other Jedi wouldn't approve of her methods... Exactly like Kreia's justification for every evil thing Revan does. I wonder what makes the two different, other than one of them happening to be the player character.


"There is something going on in time and space, and beyond time and space, which, whether we like it or not, spells duty." -Winston Churchill

"For of all sad words of tongue or pen, The saddest are these: 'It might have been!'" -John Whittier

"Apathy is death." -Kreia

Last edited by TKA-001; 03-13-2009 at 04:15 PM.
TKA-001 is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 03-13-2009, 02:57 PM   #170
Darth InSidious
A handful of dust.
 
Darth InSidious's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: The Eleven-Day Empire
Posts: 5,775
Current Game: KotOR II
Vrook's awesome.

All the complaints about him boil down to "BAWWWWW he didn't stroke my ego ergo he suxxxx!!!!!!!" They can't even be called criticisms.

He's the only one to tell it like it is.



Works-In-Progress
~
Mods Released
~
Quid existis in desertum videre?
Darth InSidious is online now   you may: quote & reply,
Old 03-15-2009, 12:44 AM   #171
Adavardes
Junior Member
 
Adavardes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 476
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth InSidious View Post
Vrook's awesome.

All the complaints about him boil down to "BAWWWWW he didn't stroke my ego ergo he suxxxx!!!!!!!" They can't even be called criticisms.

He's the only one to tell it like it is.
You mean his sanctimonious, arrogant, narrow-minded perspective that just seems like he's "telling it like it is" because he's being an ******* about it, which easily fools people who think wordy ******* = infallible prophet.

The practice of the Jedi code had always been too restrictive, which is why so many Jedi fell to the dark side. But he could never see that, in fact, he refused to see that. That not only makes him ignorant of his own faults, but completely incompetent when it comes to understanding anything about the subtleties of the Force. To assume that he's somehow awesome for standing firm on what he believes in implies that the Jedi way is somehow the perfect philosophy for Force Users. It isn't, and was almost an anti-thesis to such attitudes, and that was made painfully clear in K2.



It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built.

Last edited by Adavardes; 03-15-2009 at 12:52 AM.
Adavardes is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 03-15-2009, 10:31 AM   #172
TKA-001
I sneer at thee.
 
TKA-001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,535
Forum Veteran 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adavardes View Post
The practice of the Jedi code had always been too restrictive, which is why so many Jedi fell to the dark side. But he could never see that, in fact, he refused to see that.
The first rule of a Jedi critic is when you can't actually find anything to criticize, just pick "the Jedi code" and talk about it like it's a multi-thousand page-long book of rules, and hope that nobody will notice that the Jedi code is just a five-line-long set of guidelines (or that "the Jedi code" or whatever you want to call it/them doesn't have jack to do with the discussion).

Quote:
You mean his sanctimonious, arrogant, narrow-minded perspective that just seems like he's "telling it like it is" because he's being an ******* about it, which easily fools people who think wordy ******* = infallible prophet.
Irrelevant trash talk, which can't even be called criticism.

Quote:
That not only makes him ignorant of his own faults, but completely incompetent when it comes to understanding anything about the subtleties of the Force. To assume that he's somehow awesome for standing firm on what he believes in implies that the Jedi way is somehow the perfect philosophy for Force Users. It isn't, and was almost an anti-thesis to such attitudes, and that was made painfully clear in K2.
Strange how your rule above doesn't apply here. This paragraph was very wordy and had no substance or point (since it didn't cite a single example from anywhere of Vrook's faults other than you not liking him), but was clearly meant to be taken as correct.


"There is something going on in time and space, and beyond time and space, which, whether we like it or not, spells duty." -Winston Churchill

"For of all sad words of tongue or pen, The saddest are these: 'It might have been!'" -John Whittier

"Apathy is death." -Kreia

Last edited by TKA-001; 03-15-2009 at 10:49 AM.
TKA-001 is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 03-15-2009, 10:56 AM   #173
Adavardes
Junior Member
 
Adavardes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 476
Quote:
Originally Posted by TKA-001 View Post
The first rule of a Jedi critic is when you can't actually find anything to criticize, just pick "the Jedi code" and talk about it like it's a multi-thousand page-long book of rules, and hope that nobody will notice that the Jedi code is just a five-line-long set of guidelines (or that "the Jedi code" doesn't have jack to do with the discussion).
Actually, I said that the way the Jedi carried out the code was the main fault to be found with the Jedi Order. They were too strict, to narrow-minded, too dismissive. They held high standards, but there's a limit between setting high standards and expecting sentient emotion to just disappear. Eventually, someone's going to fall in love, and the love isn't really the problem, it's the loss of love that leads to darker emotions, but they never adapted or grew to either conquer this issue, or to accept it and work with it to make sure Jedi remained Jedi, and didn't fall to the dark side. They just let them fall and ignored the problem. They tried to make natural feelings go away, and create an unnaturally perfect warrior. It can't be done, sentients thrive off of imperfection, but the Jedi Order refused to see that, and instead of applying the code to hone and diminish the presence of powerful emotions, they attempted to either annihilate them from their pupils completely, or otherwise ignored them and cast them out as punishment. And this has everything to do with the discussion, as Vrook was a very by-the-book, follow the Code sort of Jedi, who condemned emotion to the dark side this very same way.

Quote:
Irrelevant trash talk, which can't even be called criticism.
Actually, it's pretty much indicative of Vrook's attitude, and you dismiss it because, ironically enough, you set Vrook on a pedestal, and anyone else who criticises him is just "demonising the character". Vrook is sanctimonious, impulsive, chastising when it's unnecessary, overly critical, and close-minded to the thought of problems within his Order. He was the perfect example of why the Jedi Order had fallen apart and died.

When the Sith were at his doorstep a second time when the Exile came to him, what did he say he would do? What he had done the first time, though he knew what had happened because of it. Wait, and play the role of pacifist, even though his help is needed, so he can once again condemn others for "rushing into battle". Seems to me like he just expected problems to go away. When you speak with Kavar, he says that he was looking for you on Onderon, but that Vrook hadn't wanted to place any value on what you could teach them. When you face them a final time, Vrook's the one that condemns you to the final punishment of being cut off from the Force, instead of learning from you. Dismissive, anyone?

Quote:
Strange how your rule above doesn't apply here. This paragraph was very wordy and had no substance or point (since it didn't cite a single example from anywhere), but was clearly meant to be taken as correct.
Again, dismissing the argument. And citing sources really seems to be an empty excuse to ignore my argument.



It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built.

Last edited by Adavardes; 03-15-2009 at 11:03 AM.
Adavardes is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 03-15-2009, 12:04 PM   #174
TKA-001
I sneer at thee.
 
TKA-001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,535
Forum Veteran 
Quote:
Vrook was a very by-the-book, follow the Code sort of Jedi, who condemned emotion to the dark side this very same way.
When/where did he say or do that?

Quote:
Actually, it's pretty much indicative of Vrook's attitude, and you dismiss it because, ironically enough, you set Vrook on a pedestal, and anyone else who criticises him is just "demonising the character".
Saying that I put Vrook on a pedestal is a strawman argument. Where and how did I make any such implications? Where do I praise him to that level? Vrook is a standard and unremarkable Jedi, only notable because the Revan/Exile fanbase criticizes him more than the characters in the same series who are responsible for mass murder and/or genocide.

I never accused you of demonizing Vrook. I accused Yuthura, because unlike with your post (which actually draws from the topic material somewhat), hers/his was based on outright lies, as usual.

Quote:
Vrook is sanctimonious, impulsive, chastising when it's unnecessary, overly critical, and
All but the second adjectives of this quotation are examples of the Style over Substance fallacy. Essentially, what you're saying is that the manner in which Vrook talks somehow affects the truth of what he says and believes. Also, what things does Vrook do that are impulsive?

Quote:
When the Sith were at his doorstep a second time when the Exile came to him, what did he say he would do? What he had done the first time, though he knew what had happened because of it. Wait, and play the role of pacifist, even though his help is needed, so he can once again condemn others for "rushing into battle". Seems to me like he just expected problems to go away.
When the Exile talks to the three Jedi Masters on Dantooine, Vrook says this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vrook
We have been trying... for years [to find this threat], without success.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vrook
We [hid because we] thought the enemy might show themselves. They were Sith, that much was certain.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vrook
If Jedi gather [...] then Jedi will die, and we will die for nothing.
What happened when the Jedi gathered at Katarr to figure out the Sith threat? They were killed by the Sith, along with everything else on the planet they met on. What happened to the three Jedi less than ten minutes after they gathered on Dantooine? They were killed by the Sith, exactly like they said would happen. They weren't hiding because they didn't want to do anything, they hid because not hiding would be suicide.

Quote:
When you speak with Kavar, he says that he was looking for you on Onderon, but that Vrook hadn't wanted to place any value on what you could teach them.
When and where does Kavar say that he was looking for the Exile on Onderon, and when/where does he say anything about Vrook's opinion of the Exile? As far as I can recollect, he was sitting in the Onderon palace dealing with political events (or whatever his job/position there was).

Quote:
When you face them a final time, Vrook's the one that condemns you to the final punishment of being cut off from the Force, instead of learning from you.
Please elaborate on what could've been learned from the Exile, or at the very least, what that actually means.

Quote:
Again, dismissing the argument. And citing sources really seems to be an empty excuse to ignore my argument.
Are you ****ting me? How can you even make an argument without citing evidence from the material that is being discussed?


"There is something going on in time and space, and beyond time and space, which, whether we like it or not, spells duty." -Winston Churchill

"For of all sad words of tongue or pen, The saddest are these: 'It might have been!'" -John Whittier

"Apathy is death." -Kreia

Last edited by TKA-001; 03-15-2009 at 02:01 PM.
TKA-001 is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 03-15-2009, 09:45 PM   #175
Darth_Yuthura
Banned
 
Status: Banned
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Vienna
Posts: 1,585
Current Game: KOTOR III
Quote:
Originally Posted by TKA-001 View Post
More irrelevant filler about how brave the Exile was compared to the evil meany Jedi Council, and how unfair Vrook was to every character that you like, ignoring any reasons he had for his behavior other than your made-up ones about fear and pettiness and "unjustified" condemnation. You are attempting to outright demonize this character, and you bend the facts in order to do so.
Who exactly were the leaders of the Jedi Order? Revan? The Exile? Malak? It was the Council who had the power to act and it was under their leadership that the Galaxy went to hell. That cannot be denied. It doesn't matter whether or not the Exile and her allies were right or wrong; they didn't have the power to do anything, the Council did... and even then they failed.

Am I glorifying Revan and the Exile all the time? Probably, but according to the official version of the KOTOR universe, it is Revan and the Exile who were the heros and the Council... maybe weren't evil, but indifferent to anything other than what they believed was wrong. It can't be denied that they condemned the Exile to shift blame away from themselves, and when they had a chance to do the right thing, they were arrogant and condemned her yet again. (they had reason the second time, but were too quick to come to an easy solution.)

Vrook probably was a great Jedi, but was more arrogant than anything. Atris was like Vrook, only incompetent. Has there EVER been a time when Vrook admitted that he or the Council were wrong? (He did once say 'we, the Jedi' but this put him as one among many... compared to him ruling above thousands with supreme authority) I would think that one like Vrook would have been the first to admit his failure, but instead, he died thinking it was everyone else because they didn't do what he wanted. If they had, maybe the Jedi Civil war wouldn't have happened, but maybe if he yielded to the rest of the Order, Revan never would have established a banner under which to gather followers.

Who should the Jedi have supported? Vrook LOVED blaming Revan and his followers for everything... even when the Council should have been able to deal with ONE rogue Jedi. Under the Council's leadership, the entire Order went all to hell. Did Vrook or Atris EVER take responsibility for their bad leadership? They WERE the ones commanding the Order with a totalitarian authority and under their leadership, the Order was destroyed. Why would anyone support people who disregarded everyone else's opinions?

Were they right? Were they the best ones to lead? Well they can't deny that they failed to lead the Order when they faced the Mandalorians and Revan. The Mandalorians were a severe threat and Revan established his base of power solely because of the choices the Council made. Either Revan were a god, or the Council had to have been utterly incompetent... and shouldn't have been leading in the first place.

As for Atris... there is NO justification for what she did with Katarr. She betrayed the Jedi and the massacre wouldn't have happened if it wasn't for her. Her motives are quite apparent considering that she went to... wait DIDN'T go to Katarr to face the threat when she sold the Order out. That means that Atris couldn't possibly justify her traitorous actions because she didn't want to face the threat, but was more than willing to make others do it for her.

Atris was evil, Vrook simply believed himself perfect and acted as though he were... unwilling to compromise. THAT is why he failed miserably as a leader.

Last edited by Darth_Yuthura; 03-16-2009 at 07:03 AM.
Darth_Yuthura is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 03-16-2009, 09:24 AM   #176
Astor
It's Thornhill!
 
Astor's Avatar
 
Status: Super Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Warwickshire, UK
Posts: 3,632
Current Game: The Old Republic
LFN Staff Member Forum Veteran Helpful! 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth_Yuthura View Post
Who exactly were the leaders of the Jedi Order? Revan? The Exile? Malak? It was the Council who had the power to act and it was under their leadership that the Galaxy went to hell.
The Jedi aren't responsible for the galaxy, and it's silly to suggest such.






Astor is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 03-16-2009, 10:34 AM   #177
TKA-001
I sneer at thee.
 
TKA-001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,535
Forum Veteran 
Quote:
and it was under their leadership that the Galaxy went to hell. That cannot be denied.
It also can't be denied that Cloud City at Bespin was subjugated by the First Galactic Empire when Lando Calrissian was the administrator of said city, so it's his fault that the Empire took it over.

"The Council left millions to die, yadda yadda yadda". You probably didn't know this, but the Republic (you know, the galactic government which had a huge fleet and army to protect itself with?) sat on its hands for ten years while the Mandalorians blitzkrieged across the Outer Rim, but I don't see you jumping all over them for indecisiveness failure of leadership and all that other melodrama.

Quote:
Am I glorifying Revan and the Exile all the time?
Yes, you are. Shamelessly and inexcusably. You wouldn't be doing so at all if they weren't the player characters.

Quote:
Probably, but according to the official version of the KOTOR universe, it is Revan and the Exile who were the heros and
Sorry, but the "official version" of the "KOTOR Universe" doesn't play favorites. It doesn't say who the "heroes" are. The only substantial source we have for how stupid the Council supposedly was and how great Revan and the Exile supposedly were is Kreia. Considering her twisted sense of ethics, morality, and the fact that she was a Sith Lord herself, her attempts to justify everything that her star pupil did and her extremely bigoted opinions in regards to the Jedi should not come as a surprise in any respect. Kreia is the most biased source of information in the entire game (not to mention at least as evil as any other Sith Lord in the series), but it's strange that everything she says is taken as fact, rather than as her opinion.

Quote:
the Council... maybe weren't evil, but indifferent to anything other than what they believed was wrong.
"Maybe the Council wasn't totally evil, but it goes without saying that the person who started a galactic war and caused quadrillions of deaths even before beginning it definitely has moral superiority over them."

Quote:
It can't be denied that they condemned the Exile to shift blame away from themselves, and when they had a chance to do the right thing, they were arrogant and condemned her yet again. (they had reason the second time, but were too quick to come to an easy solution.)
Shift blame away from themselves. Blame for what? More importantly, who was blaming them? Their reason for exiling the Exile the first time didn't have jack to do with the Mandalorian Wars. It was because she could have caused another split in the Jedi Order. And I'd like to hear what they should have done instead the second time.

Quote:
Atris was like Vrook, only incompetent. Has there EVER been a time when Vrook admitted that he or the Council were wrong?
No, because he didn't believe he was wrong. Has there ever been a time when Revan admitted he/she was wrong? No, because he didn't believe he was wrong. How despicable of Revan, to believe that he was right.

Quote:
(He did once say 'we, the Jedi' but this put him as one among many... compared to him ruling above thousands with supreme authority)
This statement reminds me of a fanfic I once read where the author tried to convince the reader that Vrook was the sole, undisputed emperor of the Jedi Order who ruled through fear, ignoring the fact that not only was he not the only one on the Council, but also not even the leader of said Council.

Quote:
I would think that one like Vrook would have been the first to admit his failure, but instead, he died thinking it was everyone else because they didn't do what he wanted. If they had, maybe the Jedi Civil war wouldn't have happened, but maybe if he yielded to the rest of the Order, Revan never would have established a banner under which to gather followers.
More fact-bending about how virtually everyone in the Jedi Order except the Council wanted to follow Revan. Stop making things up to use as "evidence".

Quote:
Who should the Jedi have supported? Vrook LOVED blaming Revan and his followers for everything
I've played KOTOR I several times, and I don't recall any conversations where Vrook chews Revan out for anything, let alone "everything." All he does is chip into the conversations with the rest of the Dantooine Council in his usual taciturn manner. I ask you again: Are you looking at the actual game, or your own fan fiction?

Quote:
Under the Council's leadership, the entire Order went all to hell.
If a nation comes under attack from another nation, is it the leader of the first nation's fault that they were attacked, or the fault of the ones who actually attacked?

Quote:
They WERE the ones commanding the Order with a totalitarian authority
Saying that the Jedi Council possessed "totalitarian authority" is misleading because it implies that the Jedi Order is a government, which it is not. It does not rule planets, its members are not "citizens", and the Order does not engage in diplomacy for itself with other governments.

Quote:
and under their leadership, the Order was destroyed.
...destroyed by Revan.

Quote:
Why would anyone support people who disregarded everyone else's opinions?
But that's what Revan and Malak did as well. Why should anyone support them?

Quote:
Well they can't deny that they failed to lead the Order when they faced the Mandalorians and Revan.
Why not? They aren't responsible for the Republic's sickening incompetence or for Revan's "brilliant" ideas for making everything better.

Quote:
The Mandalorians were a severe threat and
Again, the Mandalorians only became a threat because the Republic decided that it needed to wait for ten years before trying to stop them, but I don't hear you screaming bloody arrogant evil murder incompetent at the Republic for that. Of course, it goes without saying that the reason you don't is because they weren't opposed to Revan, and anyone who was opposed to Revan was a hypocritical, arrogant perfectionist.

Quote:
Revan established his base of power solely because of the choices the Council made.
Wrong. Revan established his base of power by using the Republic's reliance on the Jedi to become a high-ranking military leader (how else would he get into such a position?), the Jedi Knights and apprentices that followed him, the strategies he used during the war to corrupt his followers, and the Star Forge later on. Revan's choices had jack squat to do with Vrook and the others. They didn't control Revan's actions. He had a brain and was capable of thinking for himself.

Quote:
Either Revan were a god, or the Council had to have been utterly incompetent... and shouldn't have been leading in the first place.
But you believe both.

Quote:
As for Atris... there is NO justification for what she did with Katarr. She betrayed the Jedi and the massacre wouldn't have happened if it wasn't for her.
Oh, I didn't know that Atris was a wound in the Force who was capable of draining the life from billions of lifeforms at once who was drawn to Katarr by all the Force-sensitives there. I thought it was Darth Nihilus who did that. My mistake.

It's Atris' fault that Katarr was depopulated? Then I guess Leia Organa on the first Death Star was as much to blame for Alderaan as Tarkin was, because he wouldn't have threatened the planet if it wasn't her home planet.

Quote:
Her motives are quite apparent considering that she went to... wait DIDN'T go to Katarr to face the threat when she sold the Order out. That means that Atris couldn't possibly justify her traitorous actions because she didn't want to face the threat, but was more than willing to make others do it for her.
Atris' reasons for not being there at the time are unexplained and irrelevant. She did not intend for the massacre to happen, nor even had reason to expect it to happen, and that's all that matters.

No justification? How is it that Atris is irredeemably evil for indirectly and unintentionally being involved in a planet's depopulation, but Revan isn't irredeemably evil for deliberately engineering the destruction of Malachor just to make others loyal to him?

Quote:
Atris was evil
I'm sure that that's true in your fan fiction, but Atris as seen in the actual game did not fall until probably shortly before the events of TSL. She sure as hell wasn't evil as far back as the Exile's trial, at any rate.

Quote:
Vrook simply believed himself perfect and acted as though he were... unwilling to compromise. THAT is why he failed miserably as a leader.
Where was Vrook given an opportunity to "compromise" on anything? Where do you get these impressions of perfectionism? Where is the evidence that he believes himself perfect? In the game, I don't see any situations that are applicable for a compromise, or Vrook saying anything which even so much as implies that he thinks highly of himself, so mind if I just call bull**** on this one?


"There is something going on in time and space, and beyond time and space, which, whether we like it or not, spells duty." -Winston Churchill

"For of all sad words of tongue or pen, The saddest are these: 'It might have been!'" -John Whittier

"Apathy is death." -Kreia

Last edited by TKA-001; 03-16-2009 at 04:45 PM.
TKA-001 is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 03-17-2009, 12:50 AM   #178
Darth_Yuthura
Banned
 
Status: Banned
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Vienna
Posts: 1,585
Current Game: KOTOR III
Okay, maybe D_Y wanted to win too much. But don't you see? You're doing the same damn thing. Win at all costs.

And you know what? Everyone's going to lose.

Last edited by Darth_Yuthura; 03-17-2009 at 08:23 AM.
Darth_Yuthura is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 03-18-2009, 10:28 AM   #179
Endorenna
Gamer Wanna-be
 
Endorenna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,140
Current Game: inFamous/Uncharted 2


I'm sorry, I just have to laugh at this thread. Seriously, there are these huge walls of text arguing whether or not Atris was evil and whether Vrook should he honored or hated!

Okay. I'll make my own wall, I s'pose.

Atris:

Atris just annoyed the stew outta me. That's why I don't like her. I don't think she was particularly evil, but I don't happen to like people who yell. If she hadn't started screaming, "YOU'RE A FILTHY MURDERER AND A DARK SIDER!!!!!" the instant the Exile walked into the room, I would have liked her better. Also, I don't happen to like people who can't even see that they're of the Dark Side, while accusing other of being Dark Siders. She was an arrogant jerk, IMO. Not necessarily evil or cruel, just...a jerk.


Vrook:

Okay, to start off, Vrook was not evil. He was a lot angrier than the rest of the Jedi Council, but I have to cut him some slack. Seriously, what has this guy gone through? He's watched his whole Order get destroyed. One of his greatest students became a Sith Lord. He had to stay in hiding for years, just so he wouldn't get hunted down and shot. He's had a hard time. I still completely dislike him, 'cuz I don't like crotchity old men, and I think he pontificated too much, but seriously? What Jedi Master doesn't pontificate too much? I still don't like him.


Revan:

Revan was evil. I'm sorry, he was. I don't care what his motives were for turning to the Dark Side. He did evil things. Frankly, I think he had less reason to turn to the Dark Side than, say--Darth Bane or Darth Zannah. I happen to think he was an awesome Sith Lord, and I like him better than the Republic AND the Jedi Council. Still, he was evil. The war he unleashed on the Galaxy and all the Jedi he killed is proof enough of that, I think. In the end, he, as we all know, was forcibly turned to the Light Side--no, actually, he wasn't. Revan died on that battleship when Malak fired on him. The person that came out of that whole incident was not Revan.


The Exile:

I blame Revan more than the Exile for the whole Malachor V thing. The Exile gave the order, true, but Revan gave her the order. I don't think she should have been kicked out of the Order--being cut off from the Force was sufficient punishment. She redeemed herself in the end, I believe. In other words, she wasn't evil.


The Jedi Code;

I'm not even going into it. All I know is that the Sith Code makes more sense. It would be possible to follow the Jedi Code, if you were trained to. After all, it's not like it's impossible to control your own feelings about/for other people. and hormones don't have to rule you. I don't exactly blame most of the Jedi who went against it and fell to the Dark Side, 'cuz, well, I have a rather nasty temper, but the Sith Code makes more sense.

BTW, the killer line of the Jedi Code is the 'There is no death; there is the Force".





PS: Yes, I'm biased about Revan and the Exile.


Chapter 12 of A Soul Adrift is out.

Short stories:
T'katlu: On the planet Felucia, a young apprentice of the Dark Side thinks back to the beginning of her training as she lies in wait for her prey...

All the Time: After four years in the Unknown Regions, the Exile returns to the known galaxy to visit an old enemy.

Broken: A master of the Dark Side finds himself about to lose the one thing he cares about--and he will do anything to stop her from endangering herself.
Endorenna is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 03-20-2009, 10:01 AM   #180
Darth_Yuthura
Banned
 
Status: Banned
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Vienna
Posts: 1,585
Current Game: KOTOR III
I just wonder how many who voted for Vrook have been in the military. This is not to be argumentative; just a quarry.
Darth_Yuthura is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 03-22-2009, 06:34 AM   #181
JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan
ANTA BAKAAA?!
 
JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Over the bridge from Australia
Posts: 1,214
*attempts to read thread:*


*read, read, read, read, read, rea-ohlookmisshowardtv..*



mfw I read the Revan novel

it is not a cry of joy.
JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 03-22-2009, 07:01 AM   #182
Bee Hoon
ngom ngom ngom
 
Bee Hoon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Sydney
Posts: 1,269
Forum Veteran Veteran Fan Fic Author LFN Staff Member Helpful! 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TKA-001
I've read your fan fiction. Are you sure you're looking at the game, instead of that?
That was uncalled for.



The sun goes down and the sky reddens, pain grows sharp.
light dwindles. Then is evening
when jasmine flowers open, the deluded say.
But evening is the great brightening dawn
when crested cocks crow all through the tall city
and evening is the whole day
for those without their lovers

-Kuruntokai 234, translated by A.K. Ramanujan

[Fic] Shreds of a Dying Belief
Bee Hoon is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 03-22-2009, 08:31 AM   #183
Astor
It's Thornhill!
 
Astor's Avatar
 
Status: Super Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Warwickshire, UK
Posts: 3,632
Current Game: The Old Republic
LFN Staff Member Forum Veteran Helpful! 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth_Yuthura View Post
I just wonder how many who voted for Vrook have been in the military. This is not to be argumentative; just a quarry.
Honest, simple question - what has being in the military got to do with voing for Vrook?






Astor is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 03-22-2009, 03:25 PM   #184
Darth_Yuthura
Banned
 
Status: Banned
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Vienna
Posts: 1,585
Current Game: KOTOR III
Quote:
Originally Posted by Astor Kaine View Post
Honest, simple question - what has being in the military got to do with voing for Vrook?
Probably because he was like a military drill officer. As Machievelli once quoted, "Always angry, never satisfied. The kind of person who you come to thank later because he did not permit you any slack."

I could imagine a person who went through military training to appreciate this kind of character, as many others don't realize the importance of being pushed to the brink and making mistakes in training instead of in the field. If this is the reason people back Vrook, then I can appreciate that and will not argue their opinion.

One other thing...

TKI-001 made a statement that I used logic from my biassed fictions for this thread; I didn't. Yes, my fics are biassed, but I don't appreciate the comments that were made. I haven't made an issue of it, but I don't want them to be used against me or others unless I'm the one who uses them here in the first place... which I haven't. I also don't glorify Revan or the Exile in my fictions, but rather they are based on a character's point of view. I may trash the Council, but that doesn't mean I think my favorite characters are always right. Even if I did, it doesn't matter because I didn't bring elements from my fictions into this.

Last edited by Darth_Yuthura; 03-22-2009 at 07:41 PM.
Darth_Yuthura is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 03-22-2009, 03:29 PM   #185
mur'phon
Whale eating vegetarian
 
mur'phon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Southier than thou
Posts: 1,537
Forum Veteran 
*makes a mental note not to vote in this poll until after my draft year*
mur'phon is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 03-22-2009, 03:39 PM   #186
Astor
It's Thornhill!
 
Astor's Avatar
 
Status: Super Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Warwickshire, UK
Posts: 3,632
Current Game: The Old Republic
LFN Staff Member Forum Veteran Helpful! 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth_Yuthura View Post
Probably because he was like a military drill officer. As Machievelli once quoted, "Always angry, never satisfied. The kind of person who you come to thank later because he did not permit you any slack."

I could imagine a person who went through military training to appreciate this kind of character, as many others don't realize the importance of being pushed to the brink and making mistakes in training instead of in the field. If this is the reason people back Vrook, then I can appreciate that and will not argue their opinion.
I'm not in the military, but i've always liked Vrook, from the moment I saw him in the first game - he's not going to mince words, and he doesn't pull his punches - and he's right to be hard on his students considering the things he's been through - countless wars, and two wars that split the Order.






Astor is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 03-24-2009, 04:39 PM   #187
Wedge Suron
Grey Jedi Lord
 
Wedge Suron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Commanding the Justice
Posts: 577
Current Game: many
Vandar is my faviourite.




A nice song, fits them perfectly.
The Mandalorians - The Chosen Ones
Wedge Suron is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-01-2009, 09:18 PM   #188
ShinDangaioh
Rookie
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 93
[delurk]
Vrook? He should not have been on the High Council. Military allegory continued. He is a drill sergeant . Drill sergeants do poorly when made brass.

I'll ignore the comics since I don't have them and I heard a rumor that they made Kreia a half-Miraluka

Vandar made several attempts to spill the beans about Revan and he did command the Jedi Forces during the battle of the Star Forge. I also have to cut him some slack, since he probably was there during the Freedon Nadd uprisings which led to Exar Kun. He's probably a little weary of all the wars that kiilled so many of his students and friends. I also felt his death was done horribly and a waste of a good character.

Cut content and what is missing from cut cotent. Lonna Vash(M4-78) was the one who taught the Exile how to end the Force Bond between the Exile and Kreia. It is also obvious she was to die fighting Sion on M4-78 saving the Exile, since Kreia mentions nothing to Vash in restored talks on Dantooine. Vash could have turned the council around and prevent that entire attempt to strip the Exile of the Force.(my vote went to her)

Atris: All the Jedi Order asked for was time to analyze the Mandalorian threat.
Napolean Bonepart: Ask me for anything but time.
That pretty much says it all right there.

As to Zez Kai-Ell, I got the feeling that he wanted to die upon the Exile's lightsaber. I think he should have jumped into one of those pits on Nar Shadda, instead of trying to convince the Exile to kill him. (I never do, since I play LS) He was way too suicidal and thus that conclave on Dantooine was what he wanted all along. He wanted to die. I feel pity for him.

Dorak? Well can't really blame him too much. Atris was the Historian of the High Council and Dorak was probably her underling in chronicling the Jedi histoy. He was the historian for Dantooine.

Zhar? There is not much to say about him one way or the other.

Kavar? I feel nutreal about him. He's the one who should have led the charge against the Mandalorians. Canderous himself said that they were expecting to fight against Kavar, not Revan.

1. Lonna Vash
2. Vandar Tokare
3. Zez Kai-Ell
4. Kavar
5. Zhar Lenstil
6. Dorak
7. Vrook Lamar(He should not have been on the High Council. That's not his strength)
8. Atris

Do I go back to lurking or not?

Edit: I almost forgot Vandar follows a different Jedi Code than the others.
Emotion; yet peace
Ignorance; yet knowledge
Passion; yet serenity
Chaos; yet harmony
Death; yet the Force

This code doesn't have the unrealistic standards that the Jedi Code and Sith Code you are forced to memorize in KOTOR hve. This is the code that Thon, Nomi Sunrider, and several others followed

Last edited by ShinDangaioh; 04-01-2009 at 09:29 PM.
ShinDangaioh is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 04-01-2009, 09:32 PM   #189
Darth_Yuthura
Banned
 
Status: Banned
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Vienna
Posts: 1,585
Current Game: KOTOR III
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShinDangaioh View Post
Do I go back to lurking or not?
Welcome to the forums. Feel free to post whatever you wish and it will be welcomed... so long as it isn't directed at another member.

It's nice to get a nice description of what we each think of the Council members. I really would have voted for Vash had she been in the game originally. I would have selected her, Kavar, and ZKE... simply for being decent Jedi.

Vrook may have been wise, but was always overconfident... Atris was like an incompetent version of him... the only reason I detest her more than him.

Last edited by Darth_Yuthura; 04-01-2009 at 09:44 PM.
Darth_Yuthura is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 07-27-2009, 05:58 AM   #190
moda
Rookie
 
moda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 101
to once more revive this thread, i have to say of the masters in tsl atris is perhaps the best character, in her you see the tragedy of emotion, in many ways she is similar to the character of othello, in that her passions become her undoing, and as she finnally comes undone she seeks to destroy everything around her.

in her dialouge with brianna on the return to telos, you see much the same scenerio as you see at the end othello, with her first seeking to end her rival, then to destroy her love.

atris in many ways is the sterotype which the jedi band about when preaching of the dangers of attachment. her tragedy is such that it makes her fall all the more sorrowful, she fell because she couldnt bear what she had done to the one she loved, she couldnt endure with out her love.

off course this whole aspect only really has its full impact if you play as a male exile otherwise she seems like a bitter old hag.

but who knows maybe im just a sad and sorry romantic :P
moda is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 07-27-2009, 10:30 AM   #191
ShinDangaioh
Rookie
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 93
I saw some of the cut content for Atris and whew, she has really lost it. She set Brianna's sisters(the Handmaidens) upon her to kill her.

"If she kills her sisters, she has fallen to the Dark Side. If she does not, then she will die. Such is sacrifice."

Back to Vrook. Vrook blamed Revan and the others for the destruction of Duros, Eres III, and Serrocco. Three planets that the Mandolrians devestated before Revan and the others entered the war.

I saw a rumor that the Jedi High Council did their best to keep the news of the destruction of Cathar a secret in the comics. Revan exposed that secret and that is what split the Order.
ShinDangaioh is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 07-27-2009, 10:36 AM   #192
moda
Rookie
 
moda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShinDangaioh View Post
I saw some of the cut content for Atris and whew, she has really lost it. She set Brianna's sisters(the Handmaidens) upon her to kill her.

"If she kills her sisters, she has fallen to the Dark Side. If she does not, then she will die. Such is sacrifice."
hence my entire othello reference, love is the most fragile of emotions, when it becomes twisted it turns into an ravenous beast unfeeling and uncaring. that is the true tragedy of Atris, she was destroyed because she loved nothing more nothing less
moda is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 07-27-2009, 11:44 AM   #193
Gob
Rookie
 
Gob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Super Awesome Land
Posts: 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by moda View Post
hence my entire othello reference, love is the most fragile of emotions, when it becomes twisted it turns into an ravenous beast unfeeling and uncaring. that is the true tragedy of Atris, she was destroyed because she loved nothing more nothing less
No. It's because she had passion. As Jolee said, it's passion that leads to the Dark Side, not love. Love is what saves you from the Dark Side. It's the reason Darth Vader turned back to the light, and it's the key to becoming a Force ghost. In the NJO, they taught to love, but control your passion. Yoda also understood that forbidding love was what led to the downfall of the Jedi.

Gob is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 07-27-2009, 12:11 PM   #194
moda
Rookie
 
moda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 101
love is entwined within passion, else love wouldnt be so special, to forbid passion is to forbid love. without passion love is nothing. and in many ways i would say atris was turned because of passion, she was turned because she became bitter over time, her bitterness stemmed from her love which was denied and supressed. this bitterness turned to anger, anger at the galaxy, anger at the exile, anger at the jedi and most importantly anger at herself. that is why she fell, not because of passion, but because of passion denied
moda is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 07-27-2009, 12:32 PM   #195
purifier
Forumite
 
purifier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: DisneyLand
Posts: 722
LF Jester 
Holy Wookiees, this freak'in thing is still going on after all this time. Talk about your long running threads.

Anyway, Atris has my vote despite her attitude towards the exile. That's just a case of her having too much passion in her beliefs about the Mandalorin Wars. She likes to argue - like everyone else.


I got a question though to everybody, do any of the Masters remind you of anybody that you've dealt with in your own life? Just a thought.

Me, I would have to say Vrook hands down. I've come across two individuals like that so far in my lifetime.


SITH HAPPENS

Last edited by purifier; 07-27-2009 at 03:41 PM.
purifier is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 07-27-2009, 02:03 PM   #196
Gob
Rookie
 
Gob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Super Awesome Land
Posts: 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by moda View Post
love is entwined within passion, else love wouldnt be so special, to forbid passion is to forbid love. without passion love is nothing. and in many ways i would say atris was turned because of passion, she was turned because she became bitter over time, her bitterness stemmed from her love which was denied and supressed. this bitterness turned to anger, anger at the galaxy, anger at the exile, anger at the jedi and most importantly anger at herself. that is why she fell, not because of passion, but because of passion denied
Love =/= Passion. Buddhism says to love without forming attachments, which is entirely possible. Jedi are based on Buddhists. Again, love is what saves people from the Dark Side. Passion is what brings them to it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by purifier View Post
I got a question though to everybody, do any of the Masters remind you of anybody that you've dealt with in your own life? Just a thought.

Me, I would have to say Vrook hands down. I've come across two individuals like that so far in my lifetime.
Haha, yeah. Vrook = my dad, except my dad has a sense of humour. Also, Zez = my friend, because they both look like hippies.

Gob is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 07-27-2009, 02:26 PM   #197
purifier
Forumite
 
purifier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: DisneyLand
Posts: 722
LF Jester 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gob View Post
Haha, yeah. Vrook = my dad, except my dad has a sense of humour. Also, Zez = my friend, because they both look like hippies.


You say one of them was a parent, your father, yep....same here. Only in my case it's my mother. I swear to god she is just like the character Vrook, she's always naggin the hell out of me over every thing, I mean for godsake leave me alone woman.

She constantly says to me: Your always making excuses for yourself (my name)!

And I say: Yea, but this broken leg really f***ing hurts damnit! Tough love man. Tough love.

Know what I mean?


SITH HAPPENS
purifier is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 07-27-2009, 03:02 PM   #198
Gob
Rookie
 
Gob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Super Awesome Land
Posts: 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by purifier View Post
You say one of them was a parent, your father, yep....same here. Only in my case it's my mother. I swear to god she is just like the character Vrook, she's always naggin the hell out of me over every thing, I mean for godsake leave me alone woman.

She constantly says to me: Your always making excuses for yourself (my name)!

And I say: Yea, but this broken leg really f***ing hurts damnit! Tough love man. Tough love.

Know what I mean?
Come to think of it, my sister's like that, too. She gets angry over the most trivial things, and then when you tell her off, she starts on about something else... Actually, a lot of people do that. But I guess we're getting off topic.

So, who likes Zez's mustache?

Gob is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 07-27-2009, 05:38 PM   #199
Master Shake
Junior Member
 
Master Shake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: S.D
Posts: 295
Current Game: kotor 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gob View Post
So, who likes Zez's mustache?
It's the reason I play the game.


“It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for something you are not.” Andre Gide.
Master Shake is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 07-27-2009, 06:31 PM   #200
purifier
Forumite
 
purifier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: DisneyLand
Posts: 722
LF Jester 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gob View Post
So, who likes Zez's mustache?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Shake
It's the reason I play the game.

Yeeaaa, that damn thing has got some character to it don't it? Hmmm, you know what....I'd say his whole look has got character to his character. (Wait a minute...did I say that right?)

Anyway I'm thinking maybe retro 60's or 70's with his stache, hippie style. He would have been my first choice on this poll, if it were not for Atris.


Score 1 for the hippies man, oh yeaaaaaa! (hi five)


SITH HAPPENS
purifier is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Post a new thread. Add a reply to this thread. Indicate all threads in this forum as read. Subscribe to this forum. RSS feed: this forum RSS feed: all forums
Go Back   LucasForums > Network > Knights of the Old Republic > Game Discussion > Telos Tourist Bureau > Which Council Member?

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:05 PM.

LFNetwork, LLC ©2002-2011 - All rights reserved.
Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.