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Old 08-23-2008, 04:57 AM   #81
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I think that PvP revolving around planet control would be fun, especially if the MMO took place in either the Mandalorian War or the Jedi Civil War. And not just mindless capture the flag type PvP either. Granted, that type could have its place, such as in capturing key cities or resources, but there are other options too. Slicers could try to slice into security systems. Smugglers and Spies could try to learn information to determine key points of attack. Assassins could try to kill key targets while opposing players try to escort the targets to safety. There are many options that have been more or less unexplored by MMOs so far.

One thing that should not happen is pigeon holing PvP into little static battles that people get in line to fight. IMO, that has pretty much killed RP inspired PVP in WoW, and taken the "war" out of Warcraft. The Mandalorian Wars and the Jedi Civil War are both described as horrific wars with many casualties. This should be reflected in a MMO surrounding their events. Instead of making little static zones of battle, simply make it incredibly difficult for the Mandos/Sith to strike all the way into the Core, and equally difficult for the Republic to push out into the outer regions. The further you get into the enemies' territory, the more NPC military forces are available to stop you.

In addition, you could have NPC fleets traveling from planet to planet. Some would be normal fleets that create epic conflict for anyone to take part in, while others would create PvP exclusion zones so that players that want to take part in the war but don't like PvP can always do so in the role of defense. Personally, I could think of nothing more immersive than riding a Basilisk war droid down onto a planet to wreak havoc upon a city defended by other players... as long as there is no dancing on the battlefield. Damn gnomes...
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Old 08-23-2008, 06:13 AM   #82
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Yeah. That? None of that is going to happen. We'll be lucky if they include any kind of Space-Based Combat. And as for planets, well, if they're smart, they'll set it on a single heavily contested world or a very small number of worlds, most of them heavily contested.
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Old 08-23-2008, 01:39 PM   #83
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Didn't really mean space combat, though that would be good too. I was talking more along the lines of roaming fleets turning entire planets into combat zones(either PvP or PvE, depending on the type of fleet).

And if they're smart, they'll take a note from Eve Online and make a single server that scales upward well instead of WoW's 1001 empty servers plus the 20 or so overpopulated ones. Then you can have many planets without worrying that there's only going to be 3 guys on what should be a populated planet.

A single planet is probably the worst idea I've heard for a Star Wars game. That would take the flavor out of it pretty badly. You'd likely end up with a static battle that never seems to be resolved, yet inexplicably have two safe zones for the entirety of the game in a conflict that consumed entire planets(assuming the whole Mando/Jedi or Jedi/Sith conflict is what they go for). Granted, the skeptic in me assumes that this will be the case anyway since nearly all big budget MMOs end up being static crap. Look at World of Peacecraft.

Now a few planets might be ok for release, but I would expect the number of planets to grow with time. Not every planet has to even be populated. Some people just want to explore. Now, I'm not asking for things to be on a scale on par with Eve Online, with its thousands of visitable star systems, but at least have enough planets to have a buffer for new players and noncombatants, a fair number of contested planets, and then some remote planets for the exploring types.
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Old 08-23-2008, 01:50 PM   #84
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And if they're smart, they'll take a note from Eve Online and make a single server that scales upward well instead of WoW's 1001 empty servers plus the 20 or so overpopulated ones. Then you can have many planets without worrying that there's only going to be 3 guys on what should be a populated planet.
EVE has far fewer players than WoW. You wanna try cramming 10 million accounts on one server? I don't think that's possible yet.


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Old 08-23-2008, 02:37 PM   #85
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I also don't think that a Star Wars MMO is going to draw the numbers that WoW took years to accumulate. In any case, servers should be scalable, and shards should only be made as needed. WoW can't handle, and doesnt really need 30,000 concurrent users per server like Eve does. But Star Wars is closer to Eve than WoW in terms of needs. A Star Wars galaxy with only a few thousand people in it would be a pretty empty galaxy.
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Old 08-24-2008, 12:10 AM   #86
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Remember though, with the combat system. Its most likely going to be some form of turn based (most likely WoW style) style attacks, but it probably WON'T be real time.

They're trying to make a RPG, not a Battlefront 3.

But hey, they sorta had it ok with Mass Effect, but the combat got quite boring after the first couple of battles.


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Old 08-24-2008, 12:21 AM   #87
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its probly gonna be the kotor combat system since its kotor 3


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Old 08-24-2008, 12:57 AM   #88
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its probly gonna be the kotor combat system since its kotor 3
They're not using the same engine (for the supposed MMO at least)...why should they have to use the same combat system?

Can you imagine a huge-a** PVP battle, with all this constant pausing of one, two seconds inbetween combat rounds?


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Old 08-24-2008, 12:57 AM   #89
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Has that been confirmed? I thought we didn't have much info other than "Star Wars MMO?" I honestly hope that it isn't KOTOR 3 for two reasons:

1. If there is a KOTOR 3 I would want it to be single player.
2. D20 really isn't suited for mass combat.

In any case I doubt it would be just like KOTOR, because you can't have real time with pause in a MMO. It would have to be a full on real time system.
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Old 08-24-2008, 12:59 AM   #90
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Has that been confirmed? I thought we didn't have much info other than "Star Wars MMO?" I honestly hope that it isn't KOTOR 3 for two reasons:

1. If there is a KOTOR 3 I would want it to be single player.
2. D20 really isn't suited for mass combat.

In any case I doubt it would be just like KOTOR, because you can't have real time with pause in a MMO. It would have to be a full on real time system.
Mmmmhmmmm....especially with that d20 system, would look ugly in a KotOR MMO. That EA guy came out and "confirmed" it. Some naysayers are still waiting further confirmation from other sources.


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Old 08-24-2008, 01:11 AM   #91
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Well then. OK, if it's going to be KOTOR 3, then this might not be the big epic war MMO, that I hoped for. Where TSL left off has me thinking more along the lines of exploring mysterious ruins... just like nearly every other MMO. Oh well. I'll let a glimmer of hope remain just because its Bioware. But just a glimmer.
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Old 08-24-2008, 01:12 AM   #92
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Old 08-24-2008, 01:54 AM   #93
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if they do pvp im not gonna buy it so yea i love the kotor combat system it worked well so if they built on itd be good. I'm already mad thats its an mmo


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Old 08-24-2008, 02:53 AM   #94
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They've hinted at having a singleplayer experience already...so you could buy it just for that. It's Star Wars, so it's probably a safe bet to assume there will be a PVP system in place.


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Old 08-24-2008, 01:38 PM   #95
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I don't really understand why people are so against PvP as long as there is are reasonable steps you can take to avoid it and still enjoy the game. I could see the argument against an Eve style PvP, since that game completely revolves around it, but I've already listed some ways that it could be added in a way to benefit those that want it and stay the hell out of the way of those that don't.

PvP can benefit a game so much for roleplayers if it is done well. Without it, the whole galaxy ends up like Manaan, with the Sith and the Republic giving each other harsh words and menacing stares. Roleplaying events become the sort of picnics and ale parties so common in WoW. How can there be an epic struggle between good and evil when evil is a script that does the same thing every time you encounter it?

Don't get me wrong. I am intimately aware of how retarded many PvPers can be. But then, those children(no offense intended to any actual children) will stir up a mess whether there is PvP or not. Everquest taught me that. The best thing is to design a system that both player types can enjoy without the interference of each other.

I am also familiar with the thrill of planning and executing an organized strike on an enemy town. I have participated in the defense of cities and the sacrifice of innocents. I have enjoyed comical events such as a staged zombie invasion where those that got killed rolled up undead characters while the survivors searched for the cure to the plague. In short, I have had a massive amount of fun that would not have been possible in a game that lacked PvP.
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Old 08-24-2008, 08:49 PM   #96
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Two words: instanced environments.

I want to go out and campaign with my friends. I don't want to worry about spawn campers.


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Old 08-24-2008, 10:47 PM   #97
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I think WoW hit the nail on the head with instances. The major adventure areas are instanced, but the main of the world is not.
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Old 08-25-2008, 02:53 AM   #98
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I think WoW hit the nail on the head with instances. The major adventure areas are instanced, but the main of the world is not.
I honestly was never into the whole instance thing...doesn't make sense story-wise for one group to kill the evil boss, then he just respawns for another group to kill. Where's the continuity?


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Old 08-25-2008, 02:55 AM   #99
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Old 08-25-2008, 07:12 AM   #100
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disapointed with MMO

I know my comments will be sacrilege for some of online gamers, but this is my opinion as a casual gamer that cannot give my life over to gaming.

With the announcement that Kotor 3 will be an MMO, I am truly disappointed. I am a big Kotor fan, I can't get enough of either game and play them repeatedly trying different scenarios.

I am disappointed with MMO's for several reasons: 1) I refuse to pay a monthly fee to play a game, any game no matter how great; 2) however you stack it up, if you don't have a group of online friends you are hung out to dry, guilds are next to impossible or even co-operative play - I don't have hours all at once to give over to a game; 3) no matter how many "raids" it will just be the same game constantly with different locations - no becoming a white night, blackest of sith or a balanced grey. Once you start down one path that is it.

I know my comments will be sacrilege for some of online gamers, but this is my opinion as a casual gamer that cannot give my life over to gaming.
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Old 08-25-2008, 08:29 AM   #101
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I honestly was never into the whole instance thing...doesn't make sense story-wise for one group to kill the evil boss, then he just respawns for another group to kill. Where's the continuity?
I agree with this to an extent, but if a major "dungeon" area is not instanced it will simply be bait for the kids that actively try and ruin anything fun that you try to do. The only ways to avoid this type of behavior is to either have instances or have true dynamic adventures that aren't tied to locations.
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Old 08-25-2008, 10:05 AM   #102
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Except for storyline purposes, video game characters are seldom forced to complete such mundane tasks as eating, sleeping, bathing, changing clothes, or going to the bathroom.

It's unrealistic, but largely practical. Imagine having to interrupt your crime rampage in Grand Theft Auto for a potty break. Of course, imagine having to interrupt your real life crime rampage for a potty break. You can't, can you? That's because your excretory system shuts down when you're exited, justifying this trope.

Another reason that this break from reality is usually tolerated is that game designers have historically been very bad at modeling the frequency of bodily functions with any degree of realism. The player character is either a camel on crystal meth, or a diabetic with narcolepsy, and rarely anything in between.

This often goes as far as the complete lack of bathrooms anywhere in the game.


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Old 08-25-2008, 12:26 PM   #103
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I prefer to play single player rather than online. You may not find it as challenging as online, but I prefer to play against my computer anyday. It doesn't talk back. It's also rather upsetting that most of the new games are for consoles and not pcs.


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Old 08-26-2008, 04:55 PM   #104
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^^^^^^^^^^^

Agreed.

KOTOR is suppose to be about story telling and plot twists, not some random generic Jedi, going to kill another jedi's (Like this MMO) I mean I blame both LucasArts and BioWare for this ignorance from them.

I hope this MMO is a failure, and gets them bankrupt.


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Old 08-26-2008, 05:56 PM   #105
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I wouldn't go so far as to wish they would become bankrupt. There are too many mmo games in my opinion.


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Old 08-26-2008, 05:58 PM   #106
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I hope this MMO is a failure, and gets them bankrupt.
All right, if you don't want any more Star Wars games in the future, wish away.


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Old 08-26-2008, 08:35 PM   #107
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I was thinking...what is kotor games.

I came to the idea they are those books you pick one action which can lead to a change in the story to a degree. Its the adventure and the path we take during our quest. We all play the game slightly different.

I was thinking they can use the system of chapter events.
For Example you play the event, Malak attacks the enclave on Dantooine. You can experience this moment. We all can tell each other how we survived or hunted the Jedi.

Servers can be setup as chapters in the story. The catch is that this will only work if the story takes place after kotor2. Every 3-6 months the story is mover forward.
Out of the 50 servers, 25 become the new story chapter. The player can stay as long as they want in that chapter but as time goes on the servers for the original chapter decreases and is only open to beginners.

Influence/ choice (ls/ds) is the other factor. They need to add this into the game. As for influence, you can influence key city figures to lean the city one way or another on certain world issues.

I still think it would be great to have one npc that you can hire. This person can be influenced by your action.

Start as force sensative ,padawan, Jedi, Jedi knight, Jedi master, Jedi master with padawan. This means you have to train them. The AI of the padawan could fall to the dark side or fight you if padawan if you fall or if they fall.

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Old 08-27-2008, 09:39 AM   #108
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So basically... a jedi "pet?" That would be amusing. Personally, I would rather have an in-game mechanic for player apprenticeship. In any case, I will likely help diminish the Jedi demographic by playing a Mando.

As for chapters, I think this would work best if it stepped away from the big expansion mentality of past MMOs and instead became smaller story based expansions that the players could actually affect(not individually of course. Can't have a "Chosen One" among thousands of players). This would work best in a single server situation.

Another thing. If MMOTOR is to surpass SWG, then there will have to be a system for space combat. This isn't like WoW, where we are comparing apples to oranges. No matter what the era, Star Wars is Star Wars, and that means epic battles in space as well as against powerful empires and Sith Lords.
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Old 08-27-2008, 10:48 AM   #109
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That would be an effective means of reducing Player Jedi Count - at the beginning, you select the Force Sensitive Class, which basically sucks in every possible way. You then have to find a Jedi player willing to go to the effort of training you - you can only gain EXP while grouped with another Jedi, for example. At the start, only Devs or a select group of people get the ability to train themselves. It's not ideal, but it's better than most ways that I can see.
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Old 08-27-2008, 11:26 AM   #110
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Unfortunately, you can't have the devs pick players at the beginning. Players will scream favoritism, which caused a bit of trouble on Eve a while back. What you might do, however, is make the ability to train one's self a bonus given to those that preorder, or perhaps to people that beta test. In the end, I think that Jedi should be like dragons were supposed to be in Horizons(never played enough to see if it worked out): Incredibly slow to get to the upper levels of power, but truly potent combatants when they get there.

But they will likely just be watered down and balanced against everyone else in all aspects.
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Old 08-27-2008, 02:54 PM   #111
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If its during the time after kotor2 then;
There are no real Jedi left....leaving a void and this will make it hard for force sensative characters to get trained and become Jedi.

You can learn the ability of sensing the force. As you learn this ability you will then seek out force riched areas. These locations are either hidden Jedi enclave, Sith lord/Sith/Dark Jedi, or even places strong in the dark side or light side of the force where you can meditate. You can use your force senses to help you seek out Jedi and Sith holocrons which will be scattered through out the galaxy. Remember many Jedi artifacts from the Dantooine enclave which were sold to people all over the galaxy.

This brings the search of being a Jedi as a inner quest vs just learning how to build a lightsaber.

There will be Jedi, exiled jedi, lost Jedi, Sith, dark Jedi, who will teach you in the ways of the force but you must perform quests to gain knowledge.

A player can share jedi/sith holcrons ,or even pieces of holocrons in order to spread knowledge. This will cause players to want to keep certain knowledge. Some holocrons will even give you quests. Players can teach each other but most of the base teaching will come from NPC's. You can gain influence or lose influence with the teaching npcs.

Once you become a Jedi which will take a time. There will be many who call them selves Jedi but will lack certain skills. In time you will be intrusted with a padawan given by NPC Jedi master. Sith will take you on his apprentice and will entice you to compete with other players to gain favor with the Sith. Once you gain enough power you can then seek out force sensative NPCs or even player which you can teach them in the ways of the darkside of the force. You can use the NPC apprentice to do your dirty work.

Logan

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Old 08-27-2008, 10:10 PM   #112
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Still not fond of the jedi pet idea. One, there will almost definitely be enough PC jedi running around without having a bunch of brain dead NPC jedi following them around. Don't kid yourself into thinking that anything other than real time requirements are going to slow down the rise of the jedi once the methods for becoming one is known. Maybe the first person will keep it a secret, but what about the 2nd or the 10th? Eventually the method will be posted on MMOTORPlanet or whatever, and then everyone and their dog will be a jedi.

Besides, having a NPC apprentice really turns a really great opportunity for RP into a tamagotchi pet. It would be a great idea for a single player game where they could actually give the NPC depth, but not in a MMO.
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Old 08-28-2008, 08:21 AM   #113
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Still not fond of the jedi pet idea. One, there will almost definitely be enough PC jedi running around without having a bunch of brain dead NPC jedi following them around. Don't kid yourself into thinking that anything other than real time requirements are going to slow down the rise of the jedi once the methods for becoming one is known. Maybe the first person will keep it a secret, but what about the 2nd or the 10th? Eventually the method will be posted on MMOTORPlanet or whatever, and then everyone and their dog will be a jedi.

Besides, having a NPC apprentice really turns a really great opportunity for RP into a tamagotchi pet. It would be a great idea for a single player game where they could actually give the NPC depth, but not in a MMO.
I agree the NPC Padawan would be hard to program. I believe that they need to keep the Jedi occupied after they reach Jedi level.

I would make the Jedi skills more about personalize then everyone getting the same abilities. I would like to see that there is a difference in Jedi so that everyone at level 11 don't have the same skills. I would like to see quests meant to temp the Jedi to shift to the dark side. The quests should be very grey so the player will have choices on how to complete the mission. you will gain light and dark force points which will affect your alignment.

There needs to be checks and balances, for example light sabers. If you make a lightsaber that get a bonus in desert envirnoments but it gets a penalty in swamps or some other areas. You can not make the ultamite lightsaber.

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Old 08-28-2008, 08:57 AM   #114
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Yeah, because that makes a lot of logical sense. Wait. No. No, it doesn't.
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Old 08-28-2008, 10:28 AM   #115
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Yeah, because that makes a lot of logical sense. Wait. No. No, it doesn't.
Although the lack of a swampsaber would explain why Yoda was using a walking stick on Dagobah.
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Old 08-28-2008, 05:21 PM   #116
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lol, yeah that would be funny,....hold on can we fight alittle to the right.... just a tad so my jedi is in the the non swamp area....its the only way my lightsaber can do damage,lol

Ok, back on topic;
The creators need to deal with balanceing Jedi skills/powers and also give them a purpose in the game's story besides fighting sith.

They need to define what it means to be a Jedi ,just as a soldier, smuggler and bounty hunter would be defined in the society of kotor.

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Old 08-28-2008, 05:42 PM   #117
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That's been pretty thoroughly defined. They're The Illuminati mixed with D&D Paladins.
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Old 08-28-2008, 06:56 PM   #118
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Ironically, I believe the Sith are closer to D&D paladins than the Jedi. The Jedi are very cautious and slow to act for fear of turning to the dark side. The Sith are the hard charging warriors fighting for what they believe is right. The only problem is that after a while it goes from "fighting for what I believe is right" to simply "that which I believe is right."
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Old 08-28-2008, 08:59 PM   #119
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The Sith don't fight for what they believe is right. The Sith fight for personal power. They are incredibly generic villains. Case in point - Anakin Skywalker. After becoming a Sith, he immediately butchers kids. Why? Because he's EEEEEVIL.

And really, take a look at a decent example of a D&D Paladin that isn't Miko Miyazaki and you'll realize that the Jedi way is actually emblematic of an effective Paladin.
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Old 08-30-2008, 04:33 AM   #120
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Reason everybody went Jedi in galaxies(I think) was because it was so good.. and if you wanted to pvp you required the best because all pvp'ers play to be #1(talk about egos huh?)

Becoming a Jedi in Galaxies(originally) wasn't exactly the easiest thing in the world(holo-grinding and xp grinding both had their places) and going up the trees took time and effort.

Although if you ask me, they should make Jedi hard to get, and following Galaxies tradition keep it hidden how you do it and change it from a time to time without saying of course..

And make Jedi/Dark Jedi/Sith heavy roleplay characters.. If getting a Jedi or even just leveling it up takes ages with no real benefit other than to say: been there, done that. and just let Jedi training be RP based... Perhaps 1 Jedi lesson per day of any tier skill(although the higher tier the more difficult it gets, and if you fail then you can come back the day after since you used up todays lesson)

Might just do the trick and keep Jedi to within a minimum population since you could just go and do a bounty hunter and be done in a few weeks rather than a few months on a Jedi
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