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Old 10-06-2008, 10:49 PM   #161
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So what? You're using gamelogic to explain why Revan is so awesome. Why shouldn't I use it to explain why Revan would lose?
i was using it as a example to explain my point. not support it.
if we took those things in the game as fact, then by hurling a grenade at a monkey, revan would suddenly learn how to hack a military grade security computer.




mfw I read the Revan novel

it is not a cry of joy.
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Old 10-06-2008, 10:52 PM   #162
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Is there any reason to believe that the basic blasters of the era were effective weapons?
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Old 10-06-2008, 11:16 PM   #163
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from what i see, kotor era blasters are just as effective as the ones in the movies and in the other games. the only evidence i see of kotor blasters being useless is in the game. and the game only does the 'crazy miss' thing because of the dice roll system. if they made an rpg with the same dice roll system set in the OT era, they'd do the same thing. blasters do go off the mark a bit. like the e-11s in jedi academy and the dc-17s from republic commando. but they wont ping off the barrel sideways.



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Old 10-06-2008, 11:18 PM   #164
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True, but the thing is, blasters don't even do very much damage. I believe the basic hand blaster is the weakest weapon in Kotor 1?
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Old 10-06-2008, 11:31 PM   #165
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1-8 damage. energy. (im pretty sure)
if every shot hit, and rolled 8 damage vs Azkul for example. (the sith mercenary on dantooine, k2) that would take ages and you'd get wasted. you are right.
now take cassus fett's heavy pistol. i think thats the strongest blaster in k1. fully upgraded. it does something like upto 19 damage. in k1 terms, thats a formidable blaster.
but take that basic blaster jump to a novel, and fight azkul with it. every shot could kill him. it would be just as effective in the novel as cassus fett's pistol. (once you get past shields and whatever he has on him). except the cassus pistol would probably look better, might eat through shields faster, and have advanced features. like, link up with any hud you might be wearing etc. it might even play your favorite music while you put some punks out of their misery.
AFAIK, kotor blasters use the same tech as movie blasters. (canderous was speculating about the effects upping the tibanna gas in his rifle in k2)



mfw I read the Revan novel

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Old 10-06-2008, 11:36 PM   #166
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Right, which is why nobody except an idiot or someone looking for a challenge actually has their main character use blasters and uses blast-toters for anything other than whittling enemies down from spitwad distance.

Have you seen a KotoR-era novel? I haven't. So how do you know that the blasters would be at all effective in it? In truth, you don't.
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Old 10-06-2008, 11:57 PM   #167
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POD was the closest to kotor novel. we'll find out when they release them next year. (i think. not sure)
i was speculating.

but come on, do you *really* think that kotor blasters are as useless as they are in game? thats ridiculous! why would they even bother putting blasters in the game? carth, canderous and hk's primary weapons were blasters. hk killed numerous jedi with blasters. and more evidence of kotor blasters and movie blasters having the same tech: hk's comment in the conversation with exile about the way droids should be treated. he said something about his line of work where the 'pieces of furniture (droids)' pull out "tibanna powered rifles" and put smoking holes in their masters. (cant remember exactly what he said)
what other evidence than the game do you have?



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Old 10-07-2008, 12:21 AM   #168
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How could I possibly have any? Blasters haven't been significantly featured in the KotoR era anywhere else.
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Old 10-07-2008, 12:26 AM   #169
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so where did that opinion come from?



mfw I read the Revan novel

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Old 10-07-2008, 12:47 AM   #170
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From the GAME.
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Old 10-07-2008, 01:01 AM   #171
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KotOR in-game pistol = DH-17 blaster, used by rebellion forces in A New Hope.

[/debate]

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Old 10-07-2008, 01:08 AM   #172
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From the GAME.
what, so you're takin the game as evidence?
d20 *is not real*. in the novels they dont roll a dice to find if a point blank shot to the head would hit or not.
read my earlier posts' arguements against using game mechanics as evidence.
do you agree?
here is another example to help:
take canderous' suped up rifle he was thinking about. point it to (for sake of censoring) a humanoid droid's head ont the ground. also take that basic blaster and do the same with an identical droid's head. pull the trigger on both. use novel physics.
both droids will die. the difference would be that a standard blaster would burn a hole into the droid's head, while the modded rifle would incinerate the head, and punch a hole into the floor underneath.



mfw I read the Revan novel

it is not a cry of joy.
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Old 10-07-2008, 01:11 AM   #173
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Uh...no, Inyri. That's incorrect. Would you like to play again?

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/st...rthblaster.jpg

That's what the standard Blaster looks like..

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Imageh-17.jpg
And that's the DH-17.

Okay, maybe both Droids would die. Then again, they might not. But that's not my point. My point is that all technology in KotoR is 4000 years out of date, and this is not a universe like Warhammer 40K where technological advancement is at a standstill where it isn't sliding backwards. Science is still an understood concept in Star Wars. Weapons technology would advance just like anything else.
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Old 10-07-2008, 01:26 AM   #174
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Okay, maybe both Droids would die. Then again, they might not. But that's not my point. My point is that all technology in KotoR is 4000 years out of date, and this is not a universe like Warhammer 40K where technological advancement is at a standstill where it isn't sliding backwards. Science is still an understood concept in Star Wars. Weapons technology would advance just like anything else.
maybe they wouldnt?!
look, i have no doubt that tech has advanced in 4000 years, it would stink if it didnt. but a 200 year old western pistol and some latest metal storm pistol (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mlu56e8nLI4) would both kill me if they were shot to my head.
do you dispute that?
movie era pistols have obviously had a less technological jump from kotor pistols than that.



mfw I read the Revan novel

it is not a cry of joy.
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Old 10-07-2008, 01:27 AM   #175
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Looks to clearly be the same design to me, Corinthian, or as close as you can get when your model is made entirely of boxes.

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Old 10-07-2008, 01:36 AM   #176
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The Kotor one is significantly smaller, for one thing.

Most likely, yes, they would kill you. Then again, they might not. It's not unheard of for people to survive a clean headshot with only tissue damage.

Prove that, JIGOS. I'd LOVE to see you try.
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Old 10-07-2008, 01:53 AM   #177
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Prove that, JIGOS. I'd LOVE to see you try.
im going to pretend i didnt hear that.

fact of the matter is: guns and blasters kill you. they wouldnt be made otherwise. to think that in the novels you could shot someone point blank and they would live is ridiculous. sure, its possible, but if a sith trooper performed headshots on a bunch of stormies, 9 times out of 10, stormies would die.and vice-versa. (and NO iam NOT talking about stun blasters or whatever else)

[EDIT]
we should move on. the blaster debate is a tangent.



mfw I read the Revan novel

it is not a cry of joy.

Last edited by JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan; 10-07-2008 at 03:56 AM.
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Old 10-07-2008, 04:21 AM   #178
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Prove that, JIGOS. I'd LOVE to see you try.
Corinthian, that was uncalled for.

I looked at the pics for the pistols. They look the same to me.


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Old 10-07-2008, 05:44 AM   #179
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I could go all Curtis Saxton on you if you like.
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Old 10-07-2008, 06:18 AM   #180
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One would also do well to note that the firepower of starships is far lower in the KOTOR era than later on.
Malak's flagship was able to destroy Taris, I wouldn't call that low firepower.



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Old 10-07-2008, 06:25 AM   #181
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I could go all Curtis Saxton on you if you like.
go ahead. why didnt you do it before?



mfw I read the Revan novel

it is not a cry of joy.
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Old 10-07-2008, 07:40 AM   #182
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OK. Imagine this. What if Vader and the OT is created now, not 30 years ago, with great effects and big budget. GL will make him a very cool character, if OT is created by with the help of MODERN TECHNOLOGY, just like Revan, Jedi Exile, Kyle, Jaden, Delta Force in RC. I'm sure that all of us will hail Vader as God if OT is created in this time. And the story will not be as childish as Episode 6, no offense to Ep6 lover, because I think it seems impossible to defeat Vader without proper training, and those Ewoks, I want to Force Crush them if I can. IMO, GL thinks that Ewoks are cute bear. For me, it's a garbage. This is the reason many people hails Revan and hate Vader. If you only knew the power of modern technology, George Lucas......

Oh, about the battle, please look my earlier post, I think I have a fair decision in that post. No offense


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Old 10-07-2008, 08:41 AM   #183
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Malak's flagship was able to destroy Taris, I wouldn't call that low firepower.
"Malak's flagship"? More like "Malak's Fleet". And there's also no evidence that his fleet melted the crust of Taris, which Imperial warships were capable of.


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Old 10-07-2008, 09:01 AM   #184
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this is quite ridiculous with all this Anakin/Vader can do that and revan can do that i mean it no point doing this i am going to say this again WE WILL NEVER KNOW AND CAN NEVER FIND OUT
with that said about the blaster being crap what about that sith blaster that had killed more jedi then any lightsaber
and corinthian Mandalore is not that crap it would take some skill to kill Mandalore
and also the Empire is not the greatest best and unbeatable neither is revan's empire unbeatable if you ask me stormtroopers seems very bad at surviving but that seem to be problem for revan's troopers to
And that technology stuff the ewoks is a primitive race they still beat the crap out of the empire they proved that technology dosen't matter much i mean what good does it do if you got good equipment but crappy soldiers so that tech stuff dosen't seem to matter i say this also again SINCE WE WILL NEVER KNOW IT WILL BECOME A DRAW


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Old 10-07-2008, 09:02 AM   #185
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"Malak's flagship"? More like "Malak's Fleet". And there's also no evidence that his fleet melted the crust of Taris, which Imperial warships were capable of.
If the crust had been melted, it wouldn't have been habitable 4,000 years later, which it was.






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Old 10-07-2008, 09:14 AM   #186
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OK. Imagine this. What if Vader and the OT is created now, not 30 years ago, with great effects and big budget. GL will make him a very cool character, if OT is created by with the help of MODERN TECHNOLOGY, just like Revan, Jedi Exile, Kyle, Jaden, Delta Force in RC. I'm sure that all of us will hail Vader as God if OT is created in this time. And the story will not be as childish as Episode 6, no offense to Ep6 lover, because I think it seems impossible to defeat Vader without proper training, and those Ewoks, I want to Force Crush them if I can. IMO, GL thinks that Ewoks are cute bear. For me, it's a garbage. This is the reason many people hails Revan and hate Vader. If you only knew the power of modern technology, George Lucas......
i agree 100%, but its just the way it turned out. they had to reconcile why vader never used plague, drain, insanity etc, and jedi 4000 years before him did. AFAIK, he didnt have those powers. (i might be wrong)
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this is quite ridiculous with all this Anakin/Vader can do that and revan can do that i mean it no point doing this i am going to say this again WE WILL NEVER KNOW AND CAN NEVER FIND OUT
its fun debating! it allows evryone to bring something to the table and gives oppurtunity to maybe learn something you didnt know before.



mfw I read the Revan novel

it is not a cry of joy.
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Old 10-07-2008, 09:17 AM   #187
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Mandalore is not that crap it would take some skill to kill Mandalore
Of course it would take some skill to kill him, but Jedi, Sith, and other Force-wielders are the sort of people who have lots of skill, instead of some skill.

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they [Ewoks] still beat the crap out of the empire
A common misconception which is directly contradicted by facts, including the Episode 6 novel, not to mention the actual movie itself. How do people keep missing the shots that show ewoks practically tripping over themselves trying to get the hell away from the Imperial AT-STs? We never see the ewoks "beating the crap" out of anyone. All we see them accomplish is take the Imperials by surprise, destroy two AT-STs, and help the Rebels secure the area around the bunker. That's it.


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Old 10-07-2008, 09:27 AM   #188
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yeah i learned somethings but it's so annoying when people thiink that vader is the greatest ever or revan the greatest ever and about those ewok well that kind of right but they showed that technology is not the most important part of an army


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Old 10-07-2008, 09:44 AM   #189
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yeah i learned somethings but it's so annoying when people thiink that vader is the greatest ever or revan the greatest ever and about those ewok well that kind of right but they showed that technology is not the most important part of an army
exactamundo. i give scenario 2 (war) to vader and the imps.
but as said, revan's sith wont be squashed like flies. theyd lose, but i think theyd die hard. (i think the term fits here...)



mfw I read the Revan novel

it is not a cry of joy.
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Old 10-07-2008, 11:05 AM   #190
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Well, I think this thread needs some fresh blood, since it's a very cool thread.
I see people complain about '30 years ago' and 'limitations of Kotor engine.'

So why don't we make it like this?

Force Unleashed Vader (closer to the truth, imo) and a Revan from the cutscenes of Kotor? The one with the custom fighting style that killed a whole squad of Jedi, set for Bastilla? We can just 'stick' all ultimate Kotor 1 and 2 powers on that one.

Anyways:
Saber vs. Saber:
Difficult. Fans suspect Revan is a duellist (Form 2 user perhaps) since he won every duel he participated in, and his opening stance. A man of finesse. Anakin uses Form 5, raw power. I think Anakin would win.

Army:
Revan. Like I said, a man of finesse and tactics.

Force Battle:
About equal, but an edge for Revan because of his experience as a Sith AND Jedi, whilst Anakin was never a 'real full-fledged' Sith.

Hostage:
Revan. Anakin would turn brute, whilst Revan would keep his finesse and stay calm. Would probably turn out to be a duel, won by Revan in an Obi-Wanish way.

All-out:
Difficult. Revan would probably avoid the duel because of Vader's raw power. Would probably search for a weakness. I bet he would try some Force Lightning, observing the electronics and fry Vader.

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Old 10-07-2008, 12:03 PM   #191
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Well, I think it's still not fair. I don't see much difference between TFU Vader and 30-year-ago Vader (please tell me if you can see the difference). I'm complaining about 30 years ago because I doubt George Lucas has imagination of Force Storm, Thought Bomb, Nihilus's drain, and many other force powers. I think, the story after TFU should be recreated and improved, because I think the story after Ep III is way too lame compared to the PT, Bane's era, and KOTOR's era. It's my opinion anyway, but I think people now underestimated Vader because the OT is crap compared to PT, the costum looks sucks compared to this era's graphic, and other things. It's Lucas's fault, first he made a tragic character (Vader), then, other characters show up as time passes and made Vader like some piece of sh*t for everyone. He tries to repair it by creating the PT, but I think this is his biggest mistake, he made Anakin an undisciplined padawan, he thinks people will like it, maybe he wanted to make a child rambo. But no, people see that as failure and made characters such as Windu ( I have to admit he's badass, "BMF" proves that), Yoda ( insane combat skill ), Sidious ( probably the strongest sith lord ever, he clouded yoda's thought so yoda couldn't see the future, also insane combat skill ), Starkiller ( I think I don't have to explain this, just see other topics about Starkiller, and also Bane and Revan ( I also think I don't have to explain this, ask their fans for their greatness ). All of this characters made Vader like a child compared to them.

I'm sorry for every Vader fans, but I think all of us ( that's right, I also love Vader ) have to admit that our hero is being underrated by many people because our hero don't get a great shot ( RODV, I don't think that's very cool), so it will be useless to debate with other SW fans, because all of them will use this weakness to destroy us. No offense to everyone.


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Old 10-07-2008, 12:28 PM   #192
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Well, from certain point of view, he didn't have his 'ZOMG' moment, no.

Maybe it's still to come. That's why I mentioned The Force Unleashed. He's supposed to be this 'uber powerfull' Sith Lord. But the 1977 technology simply can't make such a thing visible (although the TESB duel on Bespin was a brilliant preview of his duelling prowess, one of the few moments in movies I knew the hero was going to get killed/wounded).

But maybe George Lucas simply wanted him to be a powerful fighter, an example, an hero for the Empire. Not an acrobatic Jedi. Rather an efficient killing machine. He succeeded, imo. Wiping out the Jedi Order is no small feat.

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Old 10-07-2008, 03:11 PM   #193
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there is nothing wrong with vader he have done much but maybe he hasn't done something really cool yet

1.He did still wipe out almost every jedi
2.He defeated a resureccted Darth Maul
3.If he didn't have to wear the suit he would be the most powerfull ever
4.He did kill Sidious even though he didn't in a battle of the force or lightsaber duel he still lifted sidious with one hand while sidious shot lightning out of his hands
5.If i remember he survived even though he jumped in to lava to retrive some very powerfull artifact
6.he did also survive even though he catched fire on mustafar

So he has done quite some impressive things


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Old 10-07-2008, 03:51 PM   #194
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I'm not going to argue about him being able to take on Revan in a duel. That doesn't really interest me.

What I am going to continue to argue is that the Imperial Navy would have been able to defeat Revan's Star Forge Fleet. The prospect of anything else is patently ludicrous, and the fact that it's even being questioned boggles my mind. Revans forces are outgunned, they have rather limited supplies compared to the Imperial Navy, and the Imperial Navy has a fairly ridiculous number of Superweapons. Care to test your Star Forge against my World Devastators?

I didn't think so.
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Old 10-07-2008, 03:55 PM   #195
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Originally Posted by Corinthian View Post
I'm not going to argue about him being able to take on Revan in a duel. That doesn't really interest me.

What I am going to continue to argue is that the Imperial Navy would have been able to defeat Revan's Star Forge Fleet. The prospect of anything else is patently ludicrous, and the fact that it's even being questioned boggles my mind. Revans forces are outgunned, they have rather limited supplies compared to the Imperial Navy, and the Imperial Navy has a fairly ridiculous number of Superweapons. Care to test your Star Forge against my World Devastators?

I didn't think so.
Also, as I mentioned before, a Sun Crusher (alright, so the Empire never used it -but this entire situation is hypothetical) could simply destroy the Star Forge's power supply, and take the system along with it.






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Old 10-07-2008, 04:17 PM   #196
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Precisely. And the disruption field is no problem either. Uh oh, we're going down. Shoot the big temple thing with one of our super crazy torpedoes. Hey, the field thingy is gone. Okay, now finish the job.
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Old 10-07-2008, 08:18 PM   #197
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Originally Posted by JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan View Post
i read the star wars:empire: betrayal (<--cliche!) and in it, there was an imperial guy who looked as crazy as vader. tubes sticking out of him and all. didnt look real. AT ALL

thats 4000 years later.
his name's grand moff trachta. man, he looks so nazi. (ugh)
i dont think that tech leap was *too* big. IMO, sith vs imps: sith would go down fighting. not get 'mopped the floor with'.


are you going by whats in the game? because in the game, you can stand square in front of a guy facing him, have your blaster rifle aimed right at him with a distance of, like, two feet between you and him, and you can have the entire salvo go completely off. like, 'hit-the-ground' off.

@ chevron 7 locke:
yeah revan had more experience than anakin. if that directly translates in the game, revan would be plain stronger. heres an example to illustrate my point:
imagine both revan and anakin in the games. we'll put anakin in ep3 at about lvl 28. revan has more than xp than anakin and thus, is at lvl 40. revan's level cap is 50. while anakin, being the chosen one, has a higher level cap of 65. but he never got there. so, though he could have exceeded revan in power, he didnt. but also remember in kotor and tsl, you face enemies that are at a waay higher level than you. (traya having 1000 vp=lvl 40?) and yet, you can still beat them. but its hard. put the anakin and revan npcs in an arena vs each other, and 7 times out out 10, revan would win. (there is still that chance of anakin winning)
on that scale, id put ol' sid in rotj at lvl 50.

But Kreia said in KOTOR 2 that the jedi of their day would be nothing against the sith lords of ancient times. so if that trend continued for almost 4000 years...Anakin wouldnt have lasted five minutes against revan. If they were dueling on Mustafar, Revan could simply force push Anakin into the lava that seems to be every where. and since revan is abot 4000 years older then Anakin...and he's closer to the time of the ancient sith lords he should be able to wipe the flooe with little annie
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Old 10-07-2008, 08:24 PM   #198
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IMO i think they'll do something to make vader as awesome as he should be. sometime later. they'll have to. because they say he is the most powerful ever, and they'll have to back it up. the problem is, they also have to reconcile it with the OT, were he was nothing compared to what he should be. its gonna take some hard thinking, but im pretty sure they'll do it. but right now, from what we see, vader isnt as good as the other dark lords we've seen. look at how bane wastes the mercs in Rule of Two (i think), look at how nihilus destroyed mirulaka and almost the entire jedi council. actually, from what *i* see, vader is really like darth sion: both are horrribly deformed, both have been manipulated by wrinkly old sith, both hate themselves (and are very emo), both are very good lightsaber duelists, and both have a mission to kill every last jedi (which they both succeeded doing very well, and both used similar methods.)
(and hey, vader even used some of that "rage-regeneration" of sion's but to a smaller degree. (Shadows of the Empire novel, i think)
have you seen the ' sion vs nihilus' cut content? nihilus wastes him. sion survived because of his imortality power. can you imagine revan and vader vs nihilus? they're gourmet for nihilus! only exile could defeat him and that because of her unique force connection. now vader is meant to be the most powerful ever. compare that to world eating nihilus efore he tried eating the exile. (i think vader might have been referring to him when he said that the death star didnt compare to the power of the force). this is what i meant that vader had the potential, but i dont think he exceed nihilus. do you?

Quote:
But Kreia said in KOTOR 2 that the jedi of their day would be nothing against the sith lords of ancient times. so if that trend continued for almost 4000 years...Anakin wouldnt have lasted five minutes against revan. If they were dueling on Mustafar, Revan could simply force push Anakin into the lava that seems to be every where. and since revan is abot 4000 years older then Anakin...and he's closer to the time of the ancient sith lords he should be able to wipe the flooe with little annie
i dont think revan would waste vader so badly. because, that 'watering down' of jedi and sith has been going on for ages and both the jedi and sith have been on the verge of extinction more than once, and they were able to become strong as they were before each time.



mfw I read the Revan novel

it is not a cry of joy.
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Old 10-07-2008, 09:08 PM   #199
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You can't really prove that the trend continues. All we know is that the Ancient SIth Lords is that they were vastly superior lightsaber duelists. For all we know, the trend reversed itself. That's not really great evidence.
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Old 10-07-2008, 09:16 PM   #200
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JIGOS, I want to ask you something (no offense). Do you like the story of Vader being recreated (maybe resurrected, IDK) in +150 ABY, because I'd love to see story like that. I have an idea, why don't we tell GL about this. He should give Vader a great shot ( you know, because of the Chosen One thing) like other badass characters. I think every SW fans will like it. Or maybe you or everyone have a different opinion and imagination about Vader's destiny, because personally I hate Vader's fate (you know why, just look at Ep6).


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