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View Poll Results: Should Kavar's Corner be suspended for a month?
Yes - it will give people a chance to cool off 15 36.59%
No - we need to argue now more than ever 26 63.41%
Voters: 41. You may not vote on this poll


Thread: Should Kavar's Corner take a month long break?
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Old 10-12-2008, 02:50 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by Darth InSidious View Post
This place was a mistake in the first place.
No arguments here.

I do find it all rather entertaining, though.


"They should rename the team to the Washington Government Sucks. Put Obama on the helmet. Line the entire walls of the stadium with the actual text of the ACA.
Fix their home team score on the board to the debt clock, they can win every game 17,000,000,000,000 to 24. Losing team gets taxed by the IRS 100%, then droned."
-Toker
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Old 10-12-2008, 03:37 PM   #82
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This place was a mistake in the first place.
I concur.
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Old 10-12-2008, 04:10 PM   #83
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So that's three people now saying that Kavar's was a mistake but not one has given a reason why they think that.

For a moment lets forget everything that's happened here lately, I personally find it hard to see how a forum that's been going for two years or so and has 21,236 posts could be a mistake.

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Old 10-12-2008, 04:13 PM   #84
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In that case, I'll expand: There was already an existing "serious topic" forum that didn't suffer from rules being made up on the fly and applied haphazardly. My personal opinion is that 90% of "the problems" that exist in Kavar's are there because two separate sets of standards are trying to be applied simultaneously and sometimes they do not mix well.

So that's why I agree.
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Old 10-12-2008, 04:30 PM   #85
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I personally don't believe that the rules here are made up on the fly. Sometimes as the topics change the rules have to adapt a little to keep things running as smoothly as possible which in a forum like this is hard to do.

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Old 10-12-2008, 04:46 PM   #86
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I personally don't believe that the rules here are made up on the fly.
That's fine. It's happening (or not happening) does not require your belief. I'm not going to drudge up PMs with the staff to prove my point. You asked me to expand and I expanded
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Old 10-12-2008, 05:36 PM   #87
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I agreed with DI for a different reason, that being that nowhere on LucasForums are the flaws of LucasForums more painfully obvious than here. And I also decline to elaborate.



It's "fun to watch, though. Like the Three Stooges with chainsaws."


"They should rename the team to the Washington Government Sucks. Put Obama on the helmet. Line the entire walls of the stadium with the actual text of the ACA.
Fix their home team score on the board to the debt clock, they can win every game 17,000,000,000,000 to 24. Losing team gets taxed by the IRS 100%, then droned."
-Toker
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Old 10-12-2008, 05:45 PM   #88
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Why are flaws painfully obvious here, Qliveur? I think Kavar's is a fine place to explore our ideals.
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Old 10-12-2008, 05:51 PM   #89
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Like I said, I won't elaborate. T'would be pointless.


"They should rename the team to the Washington Government Sucks. Put Obama on the helmet. Line the entire walls of the stadium with the actual text of the ACA.
Fix their home team score on the board to the debt clock, they can win every game 17,000,000,000,000 to 24. Losing team gets taxed by the IRS 100%, then droned."
-Toker
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Old 10-12-2008, 05:59 PM   #90
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I was going to write a list of pros and cons for Kavar's Corner, but I just couldn't come up with a balanced ratio. Kavar's Corner looked good on papper, but it doesn't seem as though it was executed well.

Some of the things that came to mind -
1 - People from other countries can see the differences between Republican and Democratic belief systems in the United States.
2 - People from other countries have to put up with conflicting Democratic and Republican views that are affecting another country.
3 - Everyone comes to LucasForums for gamming news, tips, and entertainment, but they are exposed to political arguments and debates.
4 - Star Wars Politics (fantasy) versus United States Politics (reality). Moral question: Should they be on the same forums? No. Star Wars may be reflective of historical events, but it is layered with a level of fantasy. People become involved with science-fition-fantasy to escape reality.
5 - Relates to #4 - People want to relax and escape everyday issues, so they come here to breath and have fun.
6 - Could conflicting political views splinter the forums? Yes. If we are opening threads up about the topic of bias opinions, there is a division already forming from the election chaos.
7 - Do people of another country have the right to interfer in issues that are not of their country? No/Yes. I find it aggravating when someone from another country says the United States is doing things the wrong way. Flip-side - I do like an outsiders opinion from time to time.
8 - Are we being fair to others? Do we have the right to argue or debate infront those who just want it to go away? Or, those who are not involved?

I think there is a moral delema here.

Last edited by Yar-El; 10-12-2008 at 06:30 PM.
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Old 10-12-2008, 06:04 PM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yar-El View Post
Some of the things that came to mind -

2 - People from other countries have to put up with conflicting Democratic and Republican views that are affecting another country.
Equally so, there's an equal amount of non-us discussion - it's just because it's election season that it's overloading things.

Quote:
3 - Everyone comes to LucasForums for gamming news, tips, and entertainment, but they are exposed to political arguments and debates.
It's their choice to enter this board - it's not like they have to read this stuff, so I don't see how this is a problem.

Quote:
5 - Relates to #4 - People want to relax and escape everyday issues, so they come here to breath and have fun.
I enjoy listening to fellow gamer's opinions of what's going on in the world. It's another form of relaxation for many.

Quote:
7 - Do people of another country have the right to interfer in issues that are not of their country? No/Yes. I find is aggravating when someone from another country says the United States is doing things the wrong way.
Not everyone is going to agree - if it bothers people that much, we non-americans just won't bother posting anymore on things that don't concern us.






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Old 10-12-2008, 06:32 PM   #92
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Not everyone is going to agree - if it bothers people that much, we non-americans just won't bother posting anymore on things that don't concern us.
But, you shouldn't have to be put into that position.

Last edited by Yar-El; 10-12-2008 at 06:53 PM.
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Old 10-12-2008, 06:36 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by Astor_Kaine View Post
Equally so, there's an equal amount of non-us discussion - it's just because it's election season that it's overloading things.
Isn't Canada having an election right now? I know their elections are nothing like US ones, but still, we could easily talk about that election instead.

Quote:
I enjoy listening to fellow gamer's opinions of what's going on in the world. It's another form of relaxation for many.
I agree, the news rarely expresses what people think and I find that boards like this are a great way to find out what people think.

Quote:
Not everyone is going to agree - if it bothers people that much, we non-americans just won't bother posting anymore on things that don't concern us.
I certainly don't mind, given of course you non-USians aren't going to get in a tiff if I criticize your country. Which so far you haven't, so I figure fair is fair.


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Old 10-12-2008, 06:46 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Yar-El View Post
But, you should have to be put into that position.
Did you mistype something or is this just a really xenophobic comment?



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Old 10-12-2008, 06:47 PM   #95
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But, you should have to be put into that position.
Eh? I don't understand this statement. Regardless I will criticize any and all nations who make errors with policy that effects the world, - be that Russian, Iranian, Chinese or American, and I will not allow the tyrants of the world to silence my protest regardless of where they come from.

I am a freethinker, and as such will think freely and express my views freely, if your country makes mistakes I'll call them on it. I'm a Citizen of the World and well beyond the vain patriotism that causes so many wars and problems across the world. - If I criticize your country, tough, deal with it, and do what you can to improve it, if enough people try and change the world for the better it may just happen...



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Old 10-12-2008, 06:49 PM   #96
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Eh? I don't understand this statement. Regardless I will criticize any and all nations who make errors with policy that effects the world, - be that Russian, Iranian, Chinese or American, and I will not allow the tyrants of the world to silence my protest regardless of where they come from.

I am a freethinker, and as such will think freely and express my views freely, if your country makes mistakes I'll call them on it. I'm a Citizen of the World and well beyond the vain patriotism that causes so many wars and problems across the world.
QFE
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Old 10-12-2008, 06:53 PM   #97
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Did you mistype something or is this just a really xenophobic comment?
Sorry! I messed up on the statement.

But, you shouldn't have to be put into that position. Fixed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonathan7 View Post
Eh? I don't understand this statement. Regardless I will criticize any and all nations who make errors with policy that effects the world, - be that Russian, Iranian, Chinese or American, and I will not allow the tyrants of the world to silence my protest regardless of where they come from.
Thats is a big problem with Kavar's Corner. No individual in these forums should be put into a position where thay have to defend their country. That is not what this entertainment forums is about. It splinters the visitors into groups. If I have a conversation with fellow US citizens about high taxes, I shouldn't have to defend off critisism from a foreign visitor. Nor, should a foriegn visitor be put into a postion where they are forced to put up with the banter. We shouldn't have Americans versus Russians versus Italians versus etc... We also shouldn't have Christians versus Islams versus Budha versus etc... Anything that divides people into subgroups is not Star Warsish.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonathan7 View Post
I am a freethinker, and as such will think freely and express my views freely, if your country makes mistakes I'll call them on it. I'm a Citizen of the World and well beyond the vain patriotism that causes so many wars and problems across the world. - If I criticize your country, tough, deal with it, and do what you can to improve it, if enough people try and change the world for the better it may just happen...
Join the club. However, this is not a question about loosing the freedom of speech. This is about creating a sense of unity and fun. LucasForums has a responsibility to promote freedom, but through the means of entertainment and light current events. Heavy politics and religion can easily splinter people into subgroups. LucasArts is about bringing people together.

New slogon for LucasForums - "Bringing People Together!"

Last edited by Yar-El; 10-12-2008 at 07:49 PM.
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Old 10-12-2008, 08:24 PM   #98
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That is not what this entertainment forums is about.
I'd say that this forum is less for entertainment, and more for serious discussion, as it says in the forum description.

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Originally Posted by Yar-El View Post
It splinters the visitors into groups.
That's because everybody has different opinions. Go figure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yar-El View Post
If I have a conversation with fellow US citizens about high taxes, I shouldn't have to defend off critisism from a foreign visitor.
Why not? They're just as much entitled to their opinion as you are.

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Originally Posted by Yar-El View Post
Anything that divides people into subgroups is not Star Warsish.
Honestly? This forum isn't about Star Wars. It really isn't. It's about serious discussions on things that are happening in the real world.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yar-El View Post
New slogon for LucasForums - "Bringing People Together!"


_EW_



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Old 10-12-2008, 08:29 PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yar-El View Post
<snipped for brevity>New slogon for LucasForums - "Bringing People Together!"
You could just decide not to visit Kavars if it upsets you that much to see people disagree with each other...

I will go on record and say the Saudi Arabian government is one of the most evil and tyrannous regimes on the planet and all the western governments that support it because of its oil are selfish, hypocritical, vain and conceited, don't like that? Tough.... I'd suggest matters of unbiased logic would say my conclusion is correct.



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Old 10-12-2008, 08:42 PM   #100
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I will go on record and say the Saudi Arabian government is one of the most evil and tyrannous regimes on the planet and all the western governments that support it because of its oil are selfish, hypocritical, vain and conceited, don't like that? Tough.... I'd suggest matters of unbiased logic would say my conclusion is correct.
Just wanted to have this show up twice, to make sure everyone reads it.

_EW_



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Old 10-12-2008, 08:58 PM   #101
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Quote:
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Thats is a big problem with Kavar's Corner. No individual in these forums should be put into a position where thay have to defend their country. That is not what this entertainment forums is about. It splinters the visitors into groups. If I have a conversation with fellow US citizens about high taxes, I shouldn't have to defend off critisism from a foreign visitor. Nor, should a foriegn visitor be put into a postion where they are forced to put up with the banter. We shouldn't have Americans versus Russians versus Italians versus etc... We also shouldn't have Christians versus Islams versus Budha versus etc...
Why see it like that (x vs y) ? I have always enjoyed discussing politics and other topics with people from all around the world. It is a good way to exchange ideas and see how things are done elsewhere and learn about others' perspectives on various topics, including my own country...it can be seen as a way to "Bring People Together" too.

Besides, no one is forced to read a specific topic or to even come to Kavar. It's there for those members of the community who want to use it...it happens that some of them are interested in discussing topics like the ones that are discussed in Kavar and not just "who would win, Revan or Vader?".

Quote:
Anything that divides people into subgroups is not Star Warsish.
What about the Jedi and the Sith?

LFN isn't LucasArts btw...
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Old 10-12-2008, 09:02 PM   #102
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Oky, oky. I gave my opinion, and its not a popular one. Not a problem. I wasn't expecting people to lynch me.


Last edited by Yar-El; 10-12-2008 at 09:15 PM.
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Old 10-12-2008, 09:56 PM   #103
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I have always enjoyed discussing politics and other topics with people from all around the world. It is a good way to exchange ideas and see how things are done elsewhere and learn about others' perspectives on various topics, including my own country...it can be seen as a way to "Bring People Together" too.
I could not agree more with Darth333's statement.

The entire reason I come here is to get a different perspective from people across the world. If I view their perspectives with an open mind, I may actually learn something about them and in the process about myself.

Besides where is the fun in everyone agreeing?

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Oky, oky. I gave my opinion, and its not a popular one. Not a problem. I wasn't expecting people to lynch me.

I understand you are saying this in jest, but you seem to believe this statement at least a little. Just in case, please understand that just because someone disagrees with you, that does not mean they are not attacking you personally. They are just stating their opinion just as you stated yours.

Last edited by mimartin; 10-13-2008 at 12:59 AM.
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Old 10-12-2008, 11:03 PM   #104
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Its not up to us at the end. I'm just happy we had a chance to talk about things.
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Old 10-13-2008, 10:12 AM   #105
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So that's three people now saying that Kavar's was a mistake but not one has given a reason why they think that
It's been three years or so - the experiment has proved a messy disaster. It's
time to unplug everything, write it all up, and file it under 'N' for 'never happened and never to be discussed'.



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Old 10-13-2008, 11:06 AM   #106
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Any chances you could give details about why it's been a messy disaster? I don't even think it's that much different from the Senate, except that the Senate tends to be more strict about its rules. And seriously, the Senate is not a messy disaster.


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Old 10-13-2008, 11:41 AM   #107
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I like Kavar's corner. As much as I like starwars, I like to talk about other things too.


Please feed the trolls. XD
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Old 10-13-2008, 11:52 AM   #108
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Any chances you could give details about why it's been a messy disaster? I don't even think it's that much different from the Senate, except that the Senate tends to be more strict about its rules. And seriously, the Senate is not a messy disaster.
Isn't it the other way around? I thought Kavar's had stricter rules.

I have to say I enjoyed the discussions in the Senate over Kavar's, they tended to be more...controversial if that's the right word. Or maybe it was just the debaters who were more interesting than the ones here.

I have no problem with Kavar's though, imo it shouldn't be shut down.

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Old 10-13-2008, 05:38 PM   #109
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The Senate is more strict regarding ad hominem comments for instance. They got removed pretty consistently, mostly without a previously given moderator's note/warning, like it's been done here in Kavar's. This concept is basically good, especially since Kavar's was originally made to give room for not-so-serious serious discussion, also because the Senate became a place for very serious, in depth debates. But since those warnings didn't always help, it became necessary for the LF staff to do more moderating regarding that, which now in return seems to upset some people.

The point is, I don't see the LF staff or any rules at fault in this case. I'm sure with less ad hominem arguments (both, the blatant and the "clever" ones) in the past, this thread would not exist.


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Old 10-16-2008, 06:52 PM   #110
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Another thought... How about we ban people who cherry pick, ignore facts/sources, and are basically there to only spread their own propaganda even though it holds no weight...?


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Old 10-16-2008, 07:06 PM   #111
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Another thought... How about we ban people who cherry pick, ignore facts/sources, and are basically there to only spread their own propaganda even though it holds no weight...?
Wouldn't that mean all of us were banned?

While I may dislike illogical opinions; its subjective as to what is an illogical opinion, so as such while it maybe frustrating when debating with people who do the above, I don't think a ban would be the right way around things, I'd probably just recommend ignoring the posts in the first place...

I personally really like Kavars, but think that after recent events, their is and will be a review of moderating procedure, and possibly a change in direction.

My 2 cents...



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Old 10-16-2008, 07:10 PM   #112
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Uh, that would include about 90%+ of the people who post here.

EDIT: Damn! J7 beat me to it.


"They should rename the team to the Washington Government Sucks. Put Obama on the helmet. Line the entire walls of the stadium with the actual text of the ACA.
Fix their home team score on the board to the debt clock, they can win every game 17,000,000,000,000 to 24. Losing team gets taxed by the IRS 100%, then droned."
-Toker
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Old 10-16-2008, 07:12 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by jonathan7 View Post
I personally really like Kavars, but think that after recent events, their is and will be a review of moderating procedure, and possibly a change in direction.
Not to be rude, but I think I may have heard this before.

The best change in direction will come Nov 5.

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Old 10-16-2008, 07:25 PM   #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderWiggin View Post
Not to be rude, but I think I may have heard this before.

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Old 10-16-2008, 07:41 PM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonathan7 View Post
When do I ever fail to deliver?
I have faith in you, my friend.

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Old 10-16-2008, 09:52 PM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonathan7 View Post
its subjective as to what is an illogical opinion
Wrong. Logic is objective. That's why it's logic.

I fully acknowledge that some people are better at recognizing it than others, but that does not mean that the field itself is subjective.
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Old 10-16-2008, 10:38 PM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KinchyB View Post
Another thought... How about we ban people who cherry pick, ignore facts/sources, and are basically there to only spread their own propaganda even though it holds no weight...?
This is a Star Wars gaming forum, not a college-level forum. We have people whose ages range from 13-103. Kids in their early teens don't have the same critical thinking skills that those with post-doctoral degrees do. They don't have the intellectual basis, nor do they even have complete physical development to have the same level of judgment that an adult has. Is the bar set low? Yes. We're trying to be inclusive here, not exclusive. We as staff also don't have the time or inclination to do mounds of research to determine if person x should be banned for posting an "unacceptable source" or "inadequate argument". If you want a forum with the intellectual bar set high, this probably isn't the place for you (in general, not KinchyB in particular). There are a good number of forums where you can have graduate-level discourse and argument. This is never going to be one of those.

---------------------------

When we staff conceived this forum, we wanted people to be able to share their viewpoints without fear that they would feel like they were being crucified by someone who disagreed with them. We didn't want to see a repeat of some of the nastiness we'd seen develop in the Senate. We have failed in that mission, and failed miserably.

I see a group of people who used to get along reasonably well at each others' throats. I see small groups of people getting together to consort to harass other members whose opinions they don't like. There have been times when I didn't know whether to laugh at the complete idiocy of some of the childish behavior here, cry, be completely disgusted, or hopeless about the sheer hatred I've seen in this forum or happening as a result of this forum.

I have also seen people grow and develop over the last couple of years that this forum has existed. It absolutely broke my heart when Arcesious walked away from faith, but watching him develop skills to think critically about different subjects has been a great joy. Seeing others learn new ideas, develop their skills at evaluating research, sharing viewpoints from around the world, are all things I enjoy, too, and I am glad for those times when things go well because I think it helps all of us improve.

We as a group of members here can decide to make it better and improve the relations here, or we can continue to snipe at each other and watch this place completely unravel. As staff, we can make changes that would decrease the unpleasantries that have developed on this forum. However, it won't work unless everyone is committed to making this place a more pleasant place to be. That's up to everyone here.


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Old 10-16-2008, 11:09 PM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi View Post
We have people whose ages range from 13-103.
103? I thought you were permanently 29 Jae


But yeah, we'd like to Kavar to be as welcoming as possible to everyone, n00b to pro, no matter the background, origin or age. We are definitely not going to make it a requirement for members to meet some academic requirements, demonstrate debate or erudition skills ,etc. Kavar aims to be a place to share opinions and discuss current affairs and other "serious" topics with other LF members in a friendly and respectful environment, nothing more, nothing less.
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Old 10-16-2008, 11:15 PM   #119
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I think KinchyB was referring to trolls who clearly do not want to debate (and are fully aware of what they are doing, as opposed to honest members who simply may not be good debaters). I think a clear line should be drawn between these two groups, and one should be acceptable and the other should not.

Kavar's should be here to foster healthy debate, not to be used as a propaganda forum for those unwilling and not intending to actually debate points. This, I believe, is part of the current issues with Kavar's.

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Old 10-16-2008, 11:50 PM   #120
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With all due respect, I must admit that I'm rather curious as to exactly where this line would be drawn, Inyri. Between "acceptable" and "unacceptable" viewpoints? "Acceptable" and "unacceptable" sources? "Acceptable" and "unacceptable" propaganda?

In all fairness, the person(s) to whom you are referring are debating. Yes, they could be (a lot) less spammy and obnoxious about it, but their FUD isn't any more ridiculous than the crap that the Obamites were spewing forth ad nauseum for several months before they showed up. As a matter of fact, their style is rather reminiscent of a certain member's "damned fool athiestic crusade" of a few months ago. A debate where everyone agrees is no debate at all. It's merely a social event. In other words, it's a clique.

Oops, I said I wasn't going to elaborate about Kavar's glaringly obvious flaws earlier in this thread, and I guess I just made a liar out of myself. Oh well...


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