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Old 11-27-2008, 11:25 AM   #41
jonathan7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GTA:SWcity View Post
"""""I ask this because, it ultimately if you think life is pointless then why bother working?"""""

No point? As I suspect you missed it entirely.
I asked a question that philosophers since the beginning of time have answered - if you can't answer it, I would highly suggest that you have missed the point and not I... I know the point of my life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTA:SWcity View Post
WHY do I suffer? So I can be happy. It is not possible to be happy with a sterile life, free from hardships.
What is happiness?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTA:SWcity View Post
"""""If we are nothing but a genetic blip in the cosmic drama of the universe that is extinguished quickly why work hard?"""""

What if I said you were nothing more than property and had no conscience, no soul, no spirit? That you were just my tool? And I decreed you have no right to speak?
You'd be offended; I just denied you something fundamentally yours.
I really wouldn't be offended, I view all things as open to discussion - ask around the boards its pretty hard to offend me. Nor does the above in anyway go to answering my question - I asked if this is all there is why work hard, and then you asked a whole load of things entirely irrelevant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTA:SWcity View Post
When I hear you say something like that, it makes my blood boil. For a moment I even considered dicing you with my katana. However, I'm not a murderer... But the contempt. Such utter contempt!
Firstly threatening a mod with violence is hardly smart :|

When you hear me ask a question your blood boils, I was interested to hear your answer. My general experience of people is they don't have answers for why they think what they think - so I was intrigued to see if you could tell my why an individual should work hard...

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTA:SWcity View Post
I doubt you could understand, johnathan7. There is no way I can make a short explanation of this. To deny me my usefulness, to relegate me like some tool...god-damn it. You make the hairs on my neck stand.
I have an IQ of 147, I assure you, if you explain coherently I'd understand - I understand you implicitly for the record, I was interested to see if you knew why you think what you do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTA:SWcity View Post
The reasons I am a free marketeer--and I am so adamant about MERIT in capitalism...... Success is something you YOURSELF define. Climbing to the top of some heap may be somebody else's idea for success, but YOU may ultimately wind up VERY unhappy. It is easy to get lost. So you must center yourself.
Again what is the point on climbing to the top of the heap or not? "So you must center yourself" - Please elaborate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTA:SWcity View Post
It is okay to earn as much as you can ON MERIT. At some point, though, you need to be responsible for others. To provide in a mutual relationship. Make a true family-not just flesh and blood. To watch out for others. Like family. Not coddle them--you hold them to their word, and they you.
Why at some point do you need to be responsible for someone?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTA:SWcity View Post
Caring for the heards amongst you. "Your troops respect you only if you are a man amongst them," as Miyamoto Musashi once said.
Why?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTA:SWcity View Post
A government doesn't do that--it's impersonal. You are a number as far as it cares. I resent the government who would take away a system that rewards incentive, self sustaining, initiative, work ethic. That breaks families. Limiting what I can rightfully earn--yet some slug can get away with a living without working? That's as bad as the fascist.
I resent a system that allows individuals to die because they can't afford health insurance. The right to receive health care should be free.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTA:SWcity View Post
I resent the greedy pigs who make a bad name for free marketeering and capitalism by getting fat while making everyone else work for them. Cheating and monopolizing. Spoiling themselves. They earned it? Perhaps--but they are also irresponsible. Keeping it all to themselves. They make everyone else that earned something look like tyrants. Similar are the lazy pigs at the wellfare trough.
The fact you don't like it still doesn't change the fact they are always because of human nature what capitalism ends up with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTA:SWcity View Post
If I got it of ill doing...I have to get RID of it. If I get things or status and I did not EARN it, then I have this empty feeling I cannot shake. I care for the ACCOMPLISHMENT.

If it is shared or a gift I cherish it, but I admire the thought.
If it is a need, you must earn it.

If it is a want beyond your needs, you must earn it. You can only keep so many before it affects your life negatively, though. Choose wisely.
Again - why?
---------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTA:SWcity View Post
I guess the reason I put myself through such torture for work is to keep perspective. Life wasn't meant to be comfortable. Manual labor is back breaking filthy work, but it's honest. I can relax at the end of the day and not dwell about my hardship. I face it down as it comes. I beat it back.
Maybe I just don't see thigns the same as most. I guess I reacted differently: I grew up and I realized not everyone even has food to eat. However I saw others who get a wellfare check and all they do is watch ESPN all day. That pisses me off. I use it as motivation.

There is much to be said about *achieving* something. Building something. Making things happen. Unless you have done something like it--to do something over a LONG TERM. To pour hours of blood and sweat and tears and FRUSTRATION into something--you don't know exactly what the feeling is like. To pour your LIFE into something and finally achieve it: Victory.

Actually this is a perfect opportunity to tell you about MY OLD car. I learned the hard way walking and biking all around town for years before I ever got a car. This wasn't hard. But I had no real requirements either.

Alas, I had to learn to drive. I grew up. I got a car. Took it for granted. It broke down at the worst possible time.

The car had a problem with a carburaetor. A 1985 honda accord. I wasn't exactly the most technically incline with respect to engines--still not. It was going to cost almost $2,000 to replace or work on it. Nobody wanted to work on it either. I didn't have money. I decided I at least have to try something else--there was NO way I was going to continue to make it by hoofing or renting cars for very long. But I didn't give up or give in. You should NEVER feel sorry for yourself.
What did I do about the car? I fixed it MYSELF. After work and after long transit. I had a resourceful uncle with a few tools and lots of parts. But he didn't do the work, *I* did. It was dirty, confusing, complex. It took me a few weeks. I had to map out all the schematics for the vacuum lines. It was tedious. Bending, torquing, pulling, pushing. I spent hours after work and transit, failure after failure, pain and fatigue, because I realistically had no other choice.

I succeded. The feeling of the victory was unlike anything I ever had before. Able to drive what should have become scrap for 3 weeks. I gave it another 8 months to live. She died on me for the last time and I was crushed.

I guess you have never poured painstaking hours of your life into something. Then find later you can't breathe any more of your life back into it. So you could never understand the thrill of accomplishment.

I know it seems foolish to you: I bought another car by now--so what's the big deal???

The big deal: you never treasure something until you have poured some of your life into it only so it might last a little heile longer. You never know the loss you endure until your own work and toil dies on you. Frankly I am ready to do it again, and again if I must for my current car. The next. My home. Most things I have.

This is why America is what it is.
Work ethic is not something you just 'have' or get. It is YOU.

Ever wonder why grandpa got so upset at having to move from that little old house he built so long ago?
Ever wonder why people act like family has died when something of theirs is destroyed--namely something they built?
Ever wonder why someone gets depressed about having to go into retirement?

You might *know* why...but you have never truly *understood* it until you have ACHIEVED it.
The spirit of the working class.

Destined now to be at the leash of government.
None of this fundementally answered my question - whats the point. And for the record my course (which is for charity work) means I basically work from 7.30am till 9.00pm so please don't try lecturing me in working hard, it decidedly droll when you know nothing about me.



"Love is the only reality and it is not a mere sentiment. It is the ultimate truth that lies at the heart of creation." - Rabindranath Tagore

"Many a doctrine is like a window pane. We see truth through it but it divides us from truth." - Kahlil Gibran
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Old 11-28-2008, 09:09 AM   #42
Darth Avlectus
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You know there is a big massive hole in the mentality that we need to work for success - why?

Hole?
Well if you think something can come from nothing, that's your thing. Perhaps cheating is a viable alternative to you. Care to elaborate on what this HOLE might be?

Why work hard if it means nothing?
It means something. True it may only seem negligable in the larger scale, but we can make a difference here on our scale. Though I suspect you already realize that. Hard work is character and character is quality. It could mean nothing to you and most of the others people here, but means something to me.

Why put up with all the things you listed?

1) The spiderman gig in crawlspaces and attics? Enduring hour after hour of discomfort and tiring positions? Lugging heavy tools or vaccums around all the while? I did what others won't. There is something to be said for it.
2) The injuries sustained from nails and sheet metal in those clausterphobic areas? Minor scratches.
3) The ungrateful bitchy wife after a hard day's landscaping because her husband thought it might be a nice anniversary gift? He meant well. I can just laugh at the wife and put it back in her face.
4) Falling through ceilings and narrowly avoiding falling on saws or equipment? It happens, sometimes no matter how careful you are.
5) Chasing a cheapskate after cleaning his house? Any excuse he makes will be hollow and he's just a little bitch.
6) Getting zapped? Mmmhh. Not so bad after awhile. Actually you get a taste for it.
7) The power tripping boss who tried to assault his workers? He's nothing without us. Eventually he shut the F*** up. Assaults on workers wound up badly for him one way or another.
8) Competitors undercutting me? Clients get what they pay for. They realize that when it's too late and either a party has happened at their house, or something is mysteriously missing. Guess who they come crawling back to?


What is the point? What is the point of life?
You asked what the point of life is--so you're just as much at fault for tearing this open as I am for ranting.
In short, do your best always. Nobody can take that away from you.


Do those possessions really make you any happier?

Only in so much that they mean something significant to you, that they are fruits of your labor. Nothing wrong with that if they are not interfering with the rest of your life. Why give things away after that point? It's what a real man/woman does. You work charity-so I'd think you of all people would understand that. If you don't, I can try explaining it to you but I thought you didn't want people talking to you about your own job???


Does the better job really make you happy?

Define better job? More $$$?
In that I can put it back into my business and make more jobs and treat employees...well, far more reasonably? Improve services to the client? Yes. It is a way of provision that perpetuates more life--or at least better economy. It is something that can be improved upon instead of some one size fits all. With a cap, that would be denying me the opportunity.

In that I can take the money and run...apparently either to a private ivory tower or for office. No.

For ego and status, only temporarily at best, and the wrong reasons. NO.

More fulfilling job? If you have defined fulfillment first--then yes. If not defined, I can't say.

When you get that better car, are you content or do you now want another?? Personally I'm fine with one car thank you.

I ask this because, it ultimately if you think life is pointless then why bother working?
I don't believe I implied pointless. If it came off that way, I was trying to get at something and I guess I lost you along the way. Sorry for that. Just like you said I don't know you, you don't know me or my thoughts either.
I may not have found my calling, but my life is not pointless.

Life may be miserable and unchanging for a time, but you have the choice to make it better at some point.

Why work at all? Doing something is better than doing nothing and dwelling on the mysery. You just might find some way out.

If we are nothing but a genetic blip in the cosmic drama of the universe that is extinguished quickly why work hard?


I appreciate my country. I also try to see what I can do for it--on what scale I can affect. As opposed to just letting it coddle me with some check I didn't have to do jack S*** for.

My job may not be all that fulfilling, but someone has to do it.
Why do it well? Why not? Unlike 'just getting by' one gets a feeling of satisfaction from a job well done. You might be surprised how much difference it makes to oneself as well as all the other people. Say whatever you will, but you can't take that away either.

Nothing but a genetic blip? Perhaps we are, but just because you can't affect the whole universe (or even a noticable portion thereof), that isn't a good reason to just lay back like "screw it-I don't care".

Perhaps it is spiritual differences that seperate us. Mock that if you will.

Over too quickly? Life is short, but it ain't THAT short.

Why put up with it what I do?
The point is to get back up again. Why? If you can outlast them, you are not defeated. I continue to do my best. If clients have a legitimate point, I improve. If they are just OC whiners--fine. I do not think my life is pointless, or the toils futile. I hope I can inspire someone to see that one is not mindless to keep at it--whatever they do. I endure such crap is because I know ultimately they are all @$$holes. They are wrong. I am the better for it.

(I guess I don't mind the testosterone filled confrontations which occasionally turn into slugging fests either. Actually it's kind of refreshing.)


Charity work is good. Don't jinx your good karmah though.

At day's end, don't you rest easier knowing that you did the best you could possibly do? I'd think the hard laboring work on the outside quells the empty feeling inside. Isn't doing something to pull your weight better than cheating your way through, and ill gotteness?

It isn't that way for me for no reason or because I was indoctrinated/brainwashed into it as some might think. I decided it for myself.

I'll answer back after your reply to avoid making my post too much longer at a time. I have some answers I'd like to give.


"I cant see S***! --YOU GO TO HELL!" --Tourettes guy

Last edited by Darth Avlectus; 11-28-2008 at 09:39 AM.
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Old 11-28-2008, 05:37 PM   #43
vanir
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I haven't been to these forums much in a long while and I do quite like this forum section of open ~intelligent~ discussion about a variety of topical subjects. I'm saddened it was forced to be closed recently and...

Quote:
Firstly threatening a mod with violence is hardly smart :|
This gets a huge +1 from me.
Please, please don't spoil it for all the rest of us, people. Watch your post terms and structure, consider what you insinuate and the kind of discussion environment you're promoting.

Joke around sure, but add a smilie when making off hand comments so that people know it was fully intended without harm or genuine offense. I think you'll find many of the forum rules actually relate to statutes and regional legislation which can really be prosecuted under strict interpretations of law.

It is not just here that we have a responsibility to think about what we say, and what we mean by what we say, you'll find it is an adult responsibility of life in general, and good practise. As a former moderator for the science forum of a NASA geophysicist I can say it is sometimes merely a matter of keeping strict legal adherence to impose bans and close down/delete individual forums. Consider especially the current anti-terrorism climate regarding any kind of political discussion at public internet forums. Examine the statements of those successfully prosecuted for terrorist activity, many have no conception this is in fact what they were doing at the time. Interesting the way the law can work that way. Think, breathe, appreciate, speak might be a good rule.

btw, Jonathan7 I quite respect the talent of a mod to speak freely and imaginatively.
I found at times myself second guessing every word, it's not easy. Well done.
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Old 11-28-2008, 06:30 PM   #44
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First of all, I'd say the market as it is now stifles innovation. Where are the electric cars? the patents are bought up by the automakers, who will not build them.

Why is our infant mortality rate and life expectancy on par with the most impoverished of former Soviet states? Well, I'll point to the grave of a friend who died at age 32 because he could not afford antibiotics. He died of a treatable infection. I also say that our current health system stifles innovation, because it does not fund prevention, or funds it rather scantily. If there's a breakthrough new treatment, good luck getting it - you'll be paying the whole thing out of pocket because the insurance company won't be helping.

I've done the "working two jobs." I've also done manual labor (though, it was primarily janitorial work). I've even done full-time college and full-time school at the ssme time (wouldn't recommend it). But no matter how hard anyone works? Well, it's still a rat race, still a hamster wheel. The price of everything goes up, and your salary doesn't. You get the pride of a job well-done, but that pride doesn't pay your rent or fill your stomach.


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Old 11-28-2008, 11:41 PM   #45
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wrt socialism vs capitalism. Stealing candy from babies is just good business, and it is also the dumbest possible thing to do.


So there you have it. Good business wins out in a free market society.
The supporting argument is that Communism just doesn't work in real life. But that's bull****. Stalinism doesn't work. Personality cults aren't any semblence to democracy. But socialist democracy has never been tried, not with the determinations of the Age of Enlightenment.

My take is we've known how to fix things for quite some time. Now just try to get your greedy child abusing neighbours to give it a shot...
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Old 11-28-2008, 11:52 PM   #46
Darth Avlectus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonathan7 View Post
I know the point of my life.
Firstly threatening a mod with violence is hardly smart :|
When you hear me ask a question your blood boils, I was interested to hear your answer. My general experience of people is they don't have answers for why they think what they think - so I was intrigued to see if you could tell my why an individual should work hard...
Forgive my incoherence, it was late. I forgot for a moment you're not that rehab-ite who needed to be put in his place earlier that day. Sorry 'bout that. I hear questions (like the ones you asked) from them, often times on the verge of physical violence. Please try to understand.

I think I gave it in the last. The only things I'd add are: Just because one is miserable doesn't mean it's right to spread the mysery. Mysery loves compnay, but ultimately it dirves everyone off. I'd advise whatever the mysery is, sort it out or take it someplace else. I gather you already got that one implicitly. Taking the low road should be a last resort.
(If I had any sense responding in kind should be too)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonathan7
Again what is the point on climbing to the top of the heap or not? "So you must center yourself" - Please elaborate.
It might be cool to get to the top of a trade or to claim status or something like that--but without your inner light it will never be complete. I was only trying to show I got you on the whole implication of materialism and how it might not necessarily make one happy. You already know the point of your life, which is crucial to centering. I have it in my head that people not centered wind up as either the pig at the top or the scum at the bottom. OR somewhere inbetween.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonathan7
Why at some point do you need to be responsible for someone? [/-----n coherently I'd understand - I understand you implicitly for the record, I was interested to see if you knew why you think what you do.
I guess it's just paternal instinct and how I was raised. Any guy can knock a woman up, but it takes a man to raise the child. Too many douchebags and harlots who run away and leave a child to grow up realizing that no matter how much he/she F***S off the rest of the world ...there is always some net to catch him/her at the bottom. Such contemptible behavior. "Why should I have to work when I get my check anyway? HAHA--no matter what, the tax payer has to support me." Yes, largely injustices I've seen. A coddling government that gives a living to a lazy ass: There are others in far greater need who could use that. Mental issues don't stop one from filing papers, using a broom, cleaning a highway, or picking fruits.

Yet others and I, don't qualify, so we must fend for ourselves or starve. I don't necessarily care about getting anything personally, but seeing this on the rise like the seagull flocks to freebies makes me sick. Hard working individuals make the world a better place. Not freeloaders.

Somehow, to me imparting responsibility to young before they get too caught up in their ways would be the right thing to do. Also, A real man/woman is a provider. A principled one who keeps his subjects beholden--rather than just giving away. Quality people can make the difference, if only on a small scale vicinity in their own town. Instead of faceless government with wards and paychecks. People building community. Perhaps spiritual family.

Sorry I saw you through my boot as one of those bums.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonathan7
Why?
Care for those amongst you? Because it is the right thing to do.
Keep them beholden? It teaches responsibility. Hand out an apple to a girl, she takes and eats it; teach the girl to go find it for herself, she won't starve.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonathan7
I resent a system that allows individuals to die because they can't afford health insurance. The right to receive health care should be free.
For that much I agree. Especially when those dying are kept alive for money sake. Shame. I disagree with socialized medicine because of the 'no malpractice' thing in case a doctor is frivilous and/or botches something, or has a god complex. So I'm at a bit of a catch-22 on this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonathan7
The fact you don't like it still doesn't change the fact they are always because of human nature what capitalism ends up with.
I was speaking more to the general crowd. And to Allronix to try to send the message, not all business owners and wealthy folks are necessarily and absolutely evil. I hear so much: "the man keepin me down" "Damn those rich folks". No, they won't just give you money. BUT They're not all these hogs with big briefcases.

I hardly ever hear about the contributions they make to charity, in the media at least. Contributions far surpassing anything most of us could make. Many wealthy folks do admire initiative enough to come up in person and ask them how they got what they have, where they are. If you can handle being told no or blown off some portion of the time, even some tastelessness, you get lots of valuable secrets and information. It may not change the fact that greedy pigs will be what they are. However if we start putting in cap laws it will be a double edged sword that may come back to haunt us. Getting rid of that will be very difficult. Again, there is no real way of assuring the redistribution would tilt towards the people at large. The government would take a sizable slice as well. More sizable, I suspect once enabled with that power, than less. I should like to point out that we have a voice and power of votes as is. We have auditing, and the courts. Before deciding to let government dictate wages to us in total, we ought to (while we still have power to do some kicking out) make our case and get them to start enforcing existing laws again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Allronix View Post
First of all, I'd say the market as it is now stifles innovation. Where are the electric cars? the patents are bought up by the automakers, who will not build them.
True.

Well, I believe there is now a Tesla motors in northern California. What they are doing is making all the extravagant stuff first and getting the rich to foot their economy, before the econo model is released for the general population.
If it's sustainable, that's a good thing--I don't have to explain that to you, obviously.

However, a proposition that would have put a solar electric/heat power plant out in the desert there was shot down largely because the sierra club and few front groups who are monop.-minons opposed it. That and the opponents made it sound like a little regulation to independent companies as well as straighten out monpoly power companies and force them to follow suit in part was going to kill everyone. As to why this got shot down, I am baffled.

They can't hold on forever. It may not be fast, but there is progress being made. I think an initiative passed in CA to give a bonus help to people willing to buy these new 'efficient' products.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Allronix
Why is our infant mortality rate and life expectancy on par with the most impoverished of former Soviet states? Well, I'll point to the grave of a friend who died at age 32 because he could not afford antibiotics. He died of a treatable infection.
I'd also like a look into a link between abortion and breast cancer if you don't mind. Though it is perfectly the woman's choice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Allronix
I say our current health system stifles innovation, because it doesn't fund prevention, or funds it rather scantily. If there's a breakthrough new treatment, good luck getting it - you'll be paying the whole thing out of pocket because the insurance company won't be helping.
Agreed. However, we'd only get maybe a 5 year surge of noticeable change. Then we'd spend a lot longer fighting it because the beauraucratic red tape piles on and takes over much in the same way as insurance administation is now. The difference is it would be the government, and last I checked, you can't sue the government and win. Unless I've missed something.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Allronix
I've done the "working two jobs." I've also done manual labor (though, it was primarily janitorial work). I've even done full-time college and full-time school at the ssme time (wouldn't recommend it). But no matter how hard anyone works? Well, it's still a rat race, still a hamster wheel. The price of everything goes up, and your salary doesn't. You get the pride of a job well-done, but that pride doesn't pay your rent or fill your stomach.
Have you exausted all options? If not, I'd suggest you try. If you have, then I guess your case is legit--but I don't know. Favors and trading work might help (if you're not nailed down as is). I have no health insurance, but I trade with my dentist. That's better than nothing.

Times I have starved, I talked to managers of stores and restaurants and traded. It may not be great, but that helps for food. It might help with the landlord. Admittedly, many city folks do not have the option I do, to go and pick fruit in the fields or home grow. I'm sorry if that is your situation.

Bless you.


"I cant see S***! --YOU GO TO HELL!" --Tourettes guy

Last edited by Darth Avlectus; 11-29-2008 at 03:08 AM.
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Old 11-29-2008, 12:33 AM   #47
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Forgive my interjection, GTA:SWcity however I fear I must advise a slight lack of appreciative endeavour upon merely one point in particular.

Quote:
Mental issues don't stop one from filing papers, using a broom, cleaning a highway, or picking fruits.
I've had some experience with this and should say, yes it does. Mental issues are in fact medical, and physical. The reason why you have a mental problem with picking up a broom is because it reminds you so much of the time you got beaten almost to death for eight years straight with a broom handle that you literally have physical responses you can't seem to do anything about, and they're terribly upsetting. You wee your pants in public. Your left pupil dilates like a shotglass. You start having a Turettes fit like it was going out of fashion and don't even notice until somebody points it out.

Mental issues are physical in nature, and cannot be treated by simply changing your attitude with a bit of how'dy do and suck a fart. Hence they are strict medical illnesses.



Quote:
...seeing this on the rise like the seagull flocks to freebies makes me sick.
It is supposed to make you sick. It means the current system is inadequate. Don't shoot the messenger, think of the general public, who can't seem to think for themselves as messengers.

Quote:
I was speaking more to the general crowd. And to Allronix to try to send the message, not all business owners and wealthy folks are necessarily and absolutely evil.
You'll need to be more specific, but in generalisation, oh yes they are.

Here's a point, the "word" evil is in fact, as was designed to be a bastardisation of the word "live." It means you live backwards, ie. are dangerous to productive ideologies. It doesn't mean you have horns and a tail, it means you interpret right as wrong and wrong as right, because you just do and that is a serious issue. It means you call child abuse, caring. You call assault, expression. You call murder, justified behaviour. It means you forget what it is you are doing for some backwards terminology of the description.

It has long been said much of evil is its ignorance.

Last edited by vanir; 11-29-2008 at 12:58 AM.
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Old 11-29-2008, 01:36 AM   #48
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First of all, I did earn a Bachelor's degree and have a tech support job. I was one of the lucky ones - I got out of poverty. I'm also lucky in that I have no debt, a 401K, and modest savings. Most Americans aren't that lucky. I am also fortunate in that I have only two cats to support, and not two-legged kids. My job, such as it is, does cover my bills. However, due to layoffs, outsourcing, and other decisions made at the top, I'm working for about $4/hr less than I was a year ago for the same work. Worse, I can't "vote with my feet" to another company, as their salaries are even lower.

I've never forgotten those days of long hours, the month where there was nothing to eat but pretzels (not just for me, but for two of my sisters and my then-eight-year-old niece) feet so sore I could barely walk, sleeping in people's closets, and feeling sick all the time. My hands have permanant damage, which is another reminder. "The free market will make it all better" and "you must be not working hard enough/not trying/morally inferior" lines get me seeing red. Folks can and have worked themselves dead.

Things may be ok now, but I'm all too aware of how precarious that can be. I barely escaped a layoff a month ago. Fifty co-workers didn't. Six months before that, the company I worked for had their biggest client tank in the stock market, and I was shown the door. Three months before that, the job I had for seven years shut their doors to rebuild in places with cheap labor.

Regarding the abortion/breast cancer link, the National Cancer Institute says that there isn't a proven link. However, we do have a higher mortality rate, especially among the working poor part because of (guess what) lack of insurance and ability to pay for screening until it's too late.


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Old 11-29-2008, 02:06 AM   #49
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Allronix, you have many good things to say. Therefore I am now curious. Being at the heart of the (American) matter, what can be done to help? How can this be fixed?
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Old 11-29-2008, 04:09 AM   #50
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First order of business would be a serious audit of the defense contractors. War profiteering used to be a hanging offense, now it's accepted practice.

And while it may be looked upon as isolationist, we should definitely look at letting our allies cover more of the defense burden.

Second, a look at corporate welfare and the tax codes. We should not be rewarding with tax breaks megacorps that put our jobs overseas. For that matter, close up those tax loopholes so that the large businesses pay their share. In the 60's, corporate taxes made up about 40% of federal income. Now, most of the largest companies pay no tax at all. And while China puts massive tariffs on our goods, we let them dump cheap and poisonous crap on our shores. Levying an equal tariff may convince our partner to lower it or convince companies to not use their sweatshops.

Third, big investments in infrastructure. Our hospitals are decaying, our bridges are falling apart, the roads have massive potholes, the schools are overcrowded, and we STILL have Katrina survivors living like refugees. This ties into point #1, as we can't be the world's enforcer while our backyard falls apart.


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Old 11-29-2008, 05:32 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by vanir View Post
Forgive my interjection, GTA:SWcity however I fear I must advise a slight lack of appreciative endeavour upon merely one point in particular.
<snip>
Mental issues are physical in nature, and cannot be treated by simply changing your attitude with a bit of how'dy do and suck a fart. Hence they are strict medical illnesses.
Suppose it depends on the illness then. With exceptions, what I say still holds, Maybe not *EVERY* case, but certainly not nothing.
I have run into something like that--but usually those cases are deferred somewhere else as the help I volunteered is ineffective for people with severe aversions relating to it. Thanks. People like there to make sure I don't unwittingly induce another "episode" in that guy, while the government sends me those rehab cases who may be a few cards short in other ways, ex criminals, or just simply screw offs. Most of what I speak of are wife beaters, druggies, derelycts, that sort. Forgive me, but I don't look at every single detail of every case I get.

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Originally Posted by vanir View Post
You'll need to be more specific, but in generalisation, oh yes they are.
<snip> (wonderful definition BTW, seriously)
It has long been said much of evil is its ignorance.
Live opposite Evil, like vanir anagram is Darth Rivan?

EVIL in the way you defined it, ignorant:
Contractors who knowingly install faulty cheap parts but couldn't care less--and continue to remain unappologetic and unrepentant.
Repairmen who decide to charge for work not done. As a mode of operation.
Businesses whose bosses meet up and form a trust. Squeezing the people.
Execs who continue to perform poorly and bribe their board to keep them there. Then take the money and run when the moment is right for them--couldn't care less for the company or its employees or what will happen.
AIG and their little hawaii seminar with emergency bailout money-self explanatory.
The Andreas family heading ADM whose patriarch has been seen with every presidential cabinet from 1950 to 1998. When asked why: "They just like my money". When confronted with the notion that he's perceived as a pig at the wellfare trough: "If they want to look at it that way". It didn't bother him.
Sensationalist bulls**t artists like Alex Jones selling fear mongering. Though he uses a lot of factual stuff, he presents it in a fallacious manner. Driving a panic into people. How he overtly yells "we're not your slaves" to bilderberg heads. Were he really on the up-and-up he'd have been 'whacked' already.
You want to make corpse hills out of them? I think those are examples of the evil for which you speak.

Ones who dont fit the mold (though we may not be perfect, I think our heads are in the right place):
Court reporter (not law firms--those are all in the '?' category) companies who have helped take big time companies to task in court. Though they do make millions, they are also benefactors and contributors to charities in amounts that little people probably never could, Or fund children's cancer reserch.
Johnson and johnson. They've been an all american company and I see them doing things all the time to promote better life similar to above. There are numerous others like them if you look.
Companies like the one I'm in who make a point of avoiding shoddy work. Trying to rehab people to work. Making sure things are done right.
We have our shortcomings and I'd like to pound some sense into some of them, but we don't tolerate grubbing theivery, sexual harassement, ripping off, showing off, etc. etc..
Business owners and stores who give discounts to disabled veterans, to severly handicapped.

Is there not some kind of consideration for those who give back to the community? Those who donate? Or are our heads still on the guillotine chopping row as well?

---------

Allronix, thank you. Actually, now you're making sense to me.
For the record *I* didn't mean it in a mocking way like THAT. I've been through similar. I guess I lucked out in ways you didn't. We've come to different conclusions.

The free market doesn't solve ALL. That's why we have quality controls--Apparently not enforced well enough. THIS is more of what I am talking about: enforcing existing laws, regulations and tariffs and keeping competition intact for the sake of general BENFIT. I don't think those kinds of regualtions are socialist, Perhaps merely sematics and formalities differences.

I don't view regulations meant to keep business clean and to protect competition as socialist. However, there are so many laws regualtions and things that contradict that it needs a cleaning up.
As does the trash flooded into our country that other countries made but won't take back.

I do not believe either one party or the other is responsible like it is being made out to be. They're playing good cop-bad cop.
I have questions about that stuff like many of us, and could go on, but I'd rather not.

You're probably sick of me by now anyway.


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Old 11-29-2008, 05:51 AM   #52
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Nah. Actually, I thank you greatly. We both work hard, and want to be compensated fairly. We're just disagreeing on the how-to part.

I know I'm too radical for most. Heck, just look at where I landed on the compass. It's my job to push things one way, someone on the right will push it the other way, and the folks in the middle will decide who has the better argument.


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Old 11-29-2008, 05:48 PM   #53
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I personally feel the thread is really getting somewhere, if nobody minds me saying so. Great points guys.

Here's one I've thought about before.
Quote:
Is there not some kind of consideration for those who give back to the community? Those who donate? Or are our heads still on the guillotine chopping row as well?
I have come to the conclusion this is the human standard. It is not exceptional, but is the minimum standard for humans to coexist peacefully and productively. Yet indeed there is reward, but it is one of consequence. It is due to an all too common lack of this standard most notably among the cultures of capitalist democracies (but also a dozen other popular devotions).

Here is what you receive:
Other people's children, particularly those of abusive individuals inherently respect you in friendship. Abusive individuals fear your influence as it takes the authority they demand to have with violence.
With less, personally irrelevent concerns to clutter your mind and cloud your judgement, you tend to be a clearer thinker when approaching complicated issues. You become a good problem solver, someone who can act immediately and intelligently in a crisis. This also has an authority of its own.
You have a friendly disposition when approaching strangers. Sincere individuals find you enlivening, whilst dangerous individuals find you challenging regardless of your physical build and/or nature.
You have honest and genuine self esteem, which becomes prevalent when faced with circumstances requiring extreme amounts of personal strength. Whilst such considerate people tend to continually second guess themselves, the fact is they never lack for drive, commitment, professionalism, imagination and the gusto to see anything through to the end.
We are the kind of people employers feel they've hired at a bargain at any price (though make no mistake capitalists will seek to pay as little as possible). We tend to find advancement opportunities more as a recognition than any imposed establishment (though still need to negotiate for such recognition at times).
We often see points of view more distracted individuals simply cannot.

In conclusion our rewards are in that place originally described (as heaven) by the Hebrews, ie. within a better human disposition and all that it entails, when compared to an individual whom has chosen to place themselves in a poorly human disposition, and the real-world consequences and self loathing that it entails.
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Old 11-29-2008, 06:33 PM   #54
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I read this thread, and I nearly cried at the ignorance of the first post. So, let's just break this down and explain how this is wrong:

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Originally Posted by Yar-El View Post
The End of American capitalism?
Market turmoil draining the nation's wealth may claim another casualty

Debating on LucasForums brings a variety of perspectives. Each person has a unique experience based upon where they live. People living in the United States (and in some other countries) structure everything on unregulated systems. Capitalism is what drives the American Dream. You are able to pursue different avenues to secure a house, job, and other necessities. We take it all for granted.
Oh really? The American Dream? Let me tell you a little something about the American Dream: it's corrupt, vile, and contaminated with greed. People exploit it for more money than they could ever truly need, and it leaves many of us poor and helpless. A lot of people say that the only poor individuals are deadbeats, but that's just not true. Because corporations monopolise pretty much every facet of American life, many people have no other choice but to work with these heartless systems of economic oppression, who would lay you off as soon as look at you. Where has this all sprung from? The real "American Dream": Greed. The entire system is fueled by an emotion that makes us little more than beasts. It encourages materialism.

What are things, really? If you have what you need, food, shelter, do you really need all that money? It's all about want, not need, it's all about fueling that horrid greed that we seem so fond of perpetuating. People do their jobs not because they love it, or cherish the opportunity to contribute to society, and even humanity. They do it for that almighty dollar, that has sapped us of everything decent. We're left with lower quality products, lower quality motivation, and though we're surrounded by things we want so much, we corrupt ourselves in our quest for their possession. Is this really what humanity has come to? Selfish beasts hording their possessions with little value beyond what our minds make of them?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yar-El
Several of the converations on LucasForums deals with regulating systems. Universal Healthcare (National Healthcare) is such a regulated system. Any type of system in which government has an involvement in is regulated. Some of the systems in place are important, but others are more redundant systems.

If the government steps in and nationalizes systems, we will become one step closer to communism. U.S. government will be able to tell you how to eat, talk, walk, buy, and how to do buisness. Your freedom of choice, variety, and other behaviors will be over.

Comments? Thoughts? Theories?
The bolded portion is exceptionally ignorant. It's induced by a fear and narrow-mindedness for what socialism truly is. More governmental control merely means that those who exploit the system, those who make more money than one could ever truly need or even want by moving it around in a clever fashion and avoiding taxes, will have a harder time doing everything they can to put themselves ahead at the cost of livelihood and happiness for those less dishonest.

We're to weigh lives in monetary value? Perhaps this theory would hold weight, if money were always justly earned, but for the most part, it has not. It has been made in the rape of a mom and pop society, and the replacement of corporations that don't hesitate to do whatever necessary to make more and more money, with no regard for what is truly important. The rich haven't truly earned their money beyond having the presence of mind to cheat and lie, save for a few exceptions.

And those people, in my opinion, deserve condemnation if society is ever to grow past this. Doctors should do what they do not because it pays more than anything else, but because they love to do it, and medical universities should provide the teaching because they can and it helps create new generations of saviors, not because they make a pretty penny off of tuition. A lot of people say that those Doctors, inventors, lawyers, that they do it because of prices, but the costs are high because of the same issues, and it all leads back to a root of capitalism. The system has had its time, and has done nothing for the world but cause it to lose so much of what once made it great. It's time we start looking at the true quality of life and stop clinging to the shiny objects that never held any value in the first place.

Humanity could be so much better. And if SOCIALISM, not communism, is what it takes? Then bring it on.



It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built.
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Old 11-29-2008, 07:29 PM   #55
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I read this thread, and I nearly cried at the ignorance of the first post.
Welcome to Kavar's Corner. Enjoy your stay.

http://lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=192858



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Old 11-30-2008, 06:24 AM   #56
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I personally feel the thread is really getting somewhere, if nobody minds me saying so. Great points guys.
I'm really at a loss how to respond specifically to that post.
Thanks. I've never heard such a comprehensive...reciting (?) of philisophical and analytical reasoning (beautifully put together) to make such a broad yet focal response. (Or dissertation?)



It's a real challenge doing the appropriate or righteous thing considering (and not being pompus about it BTW) it is in the face of a system offering so many alternatives to *not* do it that way. However there is no telling what the, non material, and in many senses non statistical, invaluable, rewards are in the effects such actions will have. Or even to be able to tell the effects alone.

Taking this 'thornier path' (I think) was never really meant to be pleasureable. However the results and rewards are truly beyond measure if one knows what to look for. Even then, I think the true magnitude of the effect still escapes us on a level of comprehension for even the most knowledgeable and wise.



What I CAN see now that I (maybe others) possibly hadn't: there is lots of confusion as to what kind of capitalism/free market many of us actually level with. If it helps, any, I'd like to make a distinction (credit, again to michael savage) between two that at least I can see:

National free market capitalism and International free market capitalism.


One thing I am seeing is that more and more Americans prefer the former.

A research paper a few years old by now on a track record of nafta said that, at its inception against majority votes and wishes of our people, it was put into place.

I fear because of it now, our national identity is being erased.

It isn't strange to me that American people of all political alignments wish to see a stop to "floods of foreign garbage" in our country and see the whole "Made in America" actually mean something again. No offense intended to foreign producers, but at some point, we must begin to produce and provide for ourselves again.

To not do so is folly, and frankly is an evolution in the wrong direction. If our trains and ports (air & sea) were to be attacked, it would be disastrous.

When it was on a more community to national scale, our problems were small compared to now. Plus it was MUCH more managable.

Economists might call it isolationist and claim it's "not progressive". To the contrary, "if a communty doesn't stop growing, it will DIE" --John Taylor Gatto, Dumbing us down. Our nation should be thought of as a community.

As opposed to what? As opposed to a "network"--which essentially never stops growing and is analagous (spelling?) to the international scale.

Elaborate on this however you will.


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Old 11-30-2008, 03:04 PM   #57
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First order of business would be a serious audit of the defense contractors. War profiteering used to be a hanging offense, now it's accepted practice.
And you're implying that its only the US to blame, seriously I'm getting very ticked at people trying to blame the US for everything. You know who was selling Saddam military hardware after the first Gulf War? It was the French, Germans, Russians, and Chinese, not the United States.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Allronix
And while it may be looked upon as isolationist, we should definitely look at letting our allies cover more of the defense burden.
Yeah I'm sure the country of Polland can match the Russians when it comes to defense. And there probably will be a war or military confrontation with Russia.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Allronix
Second, a look at corporate welfare and the tax codes. We should not be rewarding with tax breaks megacorps that put our jobs overseas. For that matter, close up those tax loopholes so that the large businesses pay their share. In the 60's, corporate taxes made up about 40% of federal income. Now, most of the largest companies pay no tax at all.
Actually no companies will pay taxes, they either pass the cost on to consumers or they pack their bags and head to another country. The main problem right now is company mismanagement, labor unions, etc. which make it extremely hard for a US company to be competitive. The reason why the big 3 automakers are in trouble is the Democrat special interest groups known as Unions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Allronix
And while China puts massive tariffs on our goods, we let them dump cheap and poisonous crap on our shores. Levying an equal tariff may convince our partner to lower it or convince companies to not use their sweatshops.
I can agree with you there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Allronix
Third, big investments in infrastructure. Our hospitals are decaying, our bridges are falling apart, the roads have massive potholes, the schools are overcrowded, and we STILL have Katrina survivors living like refugees. This ties into point #1, as we can't be the world's enforcer while our backyard falls apart.
Okay I'm going to put my foot down on this one. A lot of the problems in this area isn't necessarily due to lack of funding. It's due to mismanagement, pure and simple. I've seen roads in Montana stripped to the bedrock and repaved in a matter of a few weeks tops where it takes most of the summer if that to fix potholes in a road in the Midwest.

The problem with Hospitals is that a lot of doctors have retired and/or quit due to frivalous lawsuits. The problem with schools aren't just overcrowding which some are some aren't, it's the teacher unions that make it extremely difficult to fire the incompetitent idiots among them that have no business teaching in the first place.

As far as going isolationist, the last time we seriously took a back seat, World War II happened, that war could have been ended a lot sooner if we had gotten involved when it first started.
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Old 11-30-2008, 05:51 PM   #58
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And you're implying that its only the US to blame, seriously I'm getting very ticked at people trying to blame the US for everything. You know who was selling Saddam military hardware after the first Gulf War? It was the French, Germans, Russians, and Chinese, not the United States.
O RLY? Well then, guess who sold VX and other weapons to Saddam during the Iraq-Iran War, only to find out the he used it against his own people?
Quote:
Actually no companies will pay taxes, they either pass the cost on to consumers or they pack their bags and head to another country. The main problem right now is company mismanagement, labor unions, etc. which make it extremely hard for a US company to be competitive. The reason why the big 3 automakers are in trouble is the Democrat special interest groups known as Unions.
What? The unions are to blame? The whole reason why the automakers are in trouble is due to their own mismanagement, not the workers. And when in God's name are the unions to blame? Is it the workers' fault that their company is producing crap cars?
Quote:
The problem with schools aren't just overcrowding which some are some aren't, it's the teacher unions that make it extremely difficult to fire the incompetitent idiots among them that have no business teaching in the first place.
There's no way that it is the teachers' fault. First, we can blame the government for propping up worthless programs such as No Child Left Behind, and we can also blame them for underfunding education as a whole.[/QUOTE]
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Old 11-30-2008, 06:31 PM   #59
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O RLY? Well then, guess who sold VX and other weapons to Saddam during the Iraq-Iran War, only to find out the he used it against his own people?
I said after the first Gulf Warm, there were no sanctions on Iraq prior to that war.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PastramiX
What? The unions are to blame? The whole reason why the automakers are in trouble is due to their own mismanagement, not the workers. And when in God's name are the unions to blame? Is it the workers' fault that their company is producing crap cars?
Explains why car companies in Indiana and Texas are doing just fine and are still making a profit.

Seriously $70+ an hour is kinda ridiculous, I'm surprised they hadn't gone under already. So yeah it is legitimate to point fingers at the Unions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PastramiX
There's no way that it is the teachers' fault. First, we can blame the government for propping up worthless programs such as No Child Left Behind, and we can also blame them for underfunding education as a whole.
In this case you can't, because just throwing money at a problem when the instructor is an incompetitent idiot or the money is being funnelled to something else like administrator salaries doesn't help the situation at all.
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Old 12-01-2008, 04:08 AM   #60
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And you're implying that its only the US to blame, seriously I'm getting very ticked at people trying to blame the US for everything. You know who was selling Saddam military hardware after the first Gulf War? It was the French, Germans, Russians, and Chinese, not the United States.
Yeah, I'm personally sick of the 'blame America' game too.



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Originally Posted by GarfieldJL View Post
Yeah I'm sure the country of Polland can match the Russians when it comes to defense. And there probably will be a war or military confrontation with Russia..
Mysteriously, the only one even saying ANYTHING about this in the press is KPBN/PBS and the BBC...odd considering how they are on a political perspective. Then again ther aren't part of the conglomo media, which is good. That and the right sources on the internet. There is a very BAD potential outlash just waiting to happen right there alone.

The only thing I saw in the mainstream on this was one little article on CNN about a month ago, slanting it like you called it...that the US is provoking it, or rather Vladmir Putin was saying that. Nothing since.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GarfieldJL View Post
Actually no companies will pay taxes, they either pass the cost on to consumers or they pack their bags and head to another country. The main problem right now is company mismanagement, labor unions, etc. which make it extremely hard for a US company to be competitive. The reason why the big 3 automakers are in trouble is the Democrat special interest groups known as Unions.
Tell me about it.

(both sides are going to hate me for this)
I won't deny I have my suspicions about the gas companies like ignoring and shutting down wells to manipulate supply. However, there is a very high tax on gasoline too.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GarfieldJL View Post
Okay I'm going to put my foot down on this one. A lot of the problems in this area isn't necessarily due to lack of funding. It's due to mismanagement, pure and simple. I've seen roads in Montana stripped to the bedrock and repaved in a matter of a few weeks tops where it takes most of the summer if that to fix potholes in a road in the Midwest.
I have seen a dramatic difference in road pavement from one state/region to the next state/region. Nevada, they can work a mile of pavement recap in one week on a highway, where it takes a whole month to do a single block in a neighborhood in California.
WHAT ARE THEY DOING?!

Transparent public auditing--such a great idea, but it will never happen because politicians are too self serving, always were, and always will be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GarfieldJL View Post
The problem with Hospitals is that a lot of doctors have retired and/or quit due to frivalous lawsuits. The problem with schools aren't just overcrowding which some are some aren't, it's the teacher unions that make it extremely difficult to fire the incompetitent idiots among them that have no business teaching in the first place.
Or the politics involved between staff in both afforementioned state run institutions and third parties. Arbitrary oversight comittee boards. People buddy-buddy cliques with the school, businesses and government alike.




Quote:
Originally Posted by GarfieldJL View Post
As far as going isolationist, the last time we seriously took a back seat, World War II happened, that war could have been ended a lot sooner if we had gotten involved when it first started.
This is not an easy decision.
We are already stretched thin.

Market wise: If we hold onto international markets, our in-jeopardy identity may dissolve into the NAU...yet if we do let go, we will cause the entire world to collapse economically...

Militarily: I'm at a loss. I have heard some excerpts from a few years ago of a pakistani relations board member praising Obama's support of pakistan for the past 15 years. Whether it is still the same now or not, the whole thing is very precarious... If Israel believes America's administration won't help them--and they are under attack, they may just decide to hit all of their red buttons. Our other allies the same if they believe we have bailed.

NOT good.

If we keep on as we are, though, we will go from broke to destitude. We can't be of help to anybody if we are dead.

We have to figure something out, that is for sure.


I fear what has happened is, with Iraq now as less of a Suu'ni obstacle for Shi'ites (the hapless third party being Curds, on our side but a minority), we may well have unwittingly created a 'super Iran' state who has Russia's backing.


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