View Poll Results: Is TOR as satisfying to people as KOTOR III?
It's an ending and I'm glad that they will continue from TSL. 26 19.26%
Being 300 years too late killed the story. 88 65.19%
Couldn't care less. The gameplay is what matters. 30 22.22%
There's absolutely no way to know until TOR actually comes out. 2 1.48%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 135. You may not vote on this poll


Thread: Is TOR as good as KOTOR III?
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Old 11-22-2008, 03:39 AM   #201
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They don't 'owe' us anything... they're trying to make as much money as possible from fans.
I'll alert the media. This has to get out.


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Old 11-22-2008, 04:47 AM   #202
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Funny thing that you mention epIII to epIV. Rather than that try EPII to EPIV. Personally I would rather have had EP I and II take place 300+ years before EPIV. At least they wouldn't have had so many issues with consistency between the prequels and the OT. Heck they could have had EP I and II take place 300+ years before, and have EP III show the purge and rise of Darth Vader 300 years later. At least we wouldn't have had the sappy love story that was EP II haha.
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Old 11-23-2008, 03:12 PM   #203
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I'll alert the media. This has to get out.


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That's right. They don't 'owe' us anything... they're trying to make as much money as possible from fans. That's why they're giving something that vaguely touches upon an ending for KOTOR... that way, they could leave open the possibility of a K3 if this goes under. If this came AFTER K3 were finished and released, then it would no longer have a base of fans to rely on.
I think they could have even a bigger fanbase to rely on if the MMO came after the third SP game. Kotor franchise become a classic after only two games released. The third one would only further establish the series position and enlarge it's already huge fanbase. A perfect base to introduce an MMO me think (doesn't it remind of Warcraft?).


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Old 11-23-2008, 04:31 PM   #204
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Kotor franchise become a classic after only two games released.
That's because you can't really call it a franchise if the franchise has only produced one thing.


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Old 11-23-2008, 04:45 PM   #205
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That's because you can't really call it a franchise if the franchise has only produced one thing.
Do you say that only one of the games became a classic?


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Old 11-23-2008, 05:00 PM   #206
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No, I don't. How is that relevant to what I said?


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Old 11-23-2008, 05:03 PM   #207
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No, I don't. How is that relevant to what I said?
Don't really get what you wanted to say in the original post


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Old 11-23-2008, 05:13 PM   #208
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The key word was "franchise".


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Old 11-23-2008, 05:55 PM   #209
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The key word was "franchise".
Franchise = a series of products. KOTOR franchise produced 2 video games and a series of comic books and I said that the whole franchise became a classic one in a very short amount of time. Then you say we can't really call sth a franchise if the franchise has only produced one thing. That's true of course but what does it have to do with KOTOR franchise which produced multiple things


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Old 11-23-2008, 05:57 PM   #210
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Ok, you've got me. I forgot where I was going with that.


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Old 11-24-2008, 01:09 PM   #211
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Sharen Thrawn made a good point that I utterly agree with. There was a fanbase to the KOTOR 'franchise' which might have been alienated by this latest thing.

I would have been interested in an MMO if the story took place in the KOTOR era. I, for one, feel cheated by TOR. They may have gotten more fans through what they did... they might not. I am one such KOTOR fan who WILL NOT be a part of this. I think that based on the poll I've given, that there are a number of KOTOR fans not content that this isn't a continuation of the KOTOR franchise.

I particularly hate this because it tramples upon the possibility for a third installation. Other projects like "the force unleashed" did not. Either do something completely different and leave KOTOR alone, or do the third installation, lucarts!
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Old 11-25-2008, 03:13 PM   #212
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Sharen Thrawn made a good point that I utterly agree with. There was a fanbase to the KOTOR 'franchise' which might have been alienated by this latest thing.
I'll argue that TOR has just created an even bigger market of potential fans for any possible K3. I'll also re-iterate what Avery has said many times: we know absolutely nothing about the TOR story. We don't know if Revan and Exile will be given any kind of mention, much less how much of a part there is. In fact, as far as TOR is concerned, since it's set so far ahead of the Kotor series, if they make no mention at all of the 2, so be it.

For those who argue that TOR being 300 years ahead means that Revan and Exile lost, we don't know that. Use France for an example: Early 1800's, Napoleon mowed over a lot of Europe to become Emperor. Fast forward almost 150 years, and France is occupied by the Germans in WW2. Just because the Republic falls doesn't mean that Revan and Exile failed any more than just because France fell to the Germans means Napoleon failed in becoming an Emperor. All this just means is that the galaxy has been a very busy place in 300 years and a lot has change since Revan and Exile were around. Also, knowing that the Germans march into Paris in WW2 does not make the amazing story of Napoleon's conquering Europe any less fascinating or compelling. If LA decides to go back and hire a company to make K3, it's not going to be ruined by TOR unless TOR spoonfeeds us every last detail of history, and I doubt that will happen.

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I would have been interested in an MMO if the story took place in the KOTOR era.
The Old Republic era takes place over thousands of years--the Kotor games occupy a tiny fraction of that time period. I'd love it if they did a game on Jolee, and I bet a good number of other people would like that, too. However, I'm not going to write off TOR completely because I can't have an 'Adventures of Jolee Bindo' RPG.

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I, for one, feel cheated by TOR.
You know nothing about the game except it''s set 300 years after TSL and it's an MMO, and based on those 2 bits of info, you've now been 'cheated'. Right. How can you possibly be 'cheated' out of something that was never promised to begin with? Go ahead and be disappointed if you want, but don't tell me you were cheated. If anything, you've cheated yourself by having the expectation to begin with. That's just the way life goes sometimes. This is a business decision--Star Wars is extremely popular, and MMOs are extremely popular. From a business point of view, it makes absolute sense to make a SW MMO rather than a SP RPG.

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They may have gotten more fans through what they did... they might not.
Looking at the numbers of threads in this forum and the huge numbers of people on the TOR forum, it looks to me like they'll have earned a lot more fans, provided they can produce a good product at a decent price.
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I am one such KOTOR fan who WILL NOT be a part of this.
So? I didn't get my Jolee game either--big whip. That's your loss, then, because it sounds like it'll be a lot of fun, regardless of whether Revan and Exile have anything to do with it.

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I think that based on the poll I've given, that there are a number of KOTOR fans not content that this isn't a continuation of the KOTOR franchise.
Did you carefully construct your poll questions with absolutely no bias, seek out a broad cross-section of all gaming fans, and get a sufficiently large sample size (minimum 100) to make the results meaningful? No? Then basing any kind of business decision off of this would be most unwise. All it says in this completely non-scientific poll is there are 62 fans on Lucasforums who wished for K3 but won't see it any time soon (if ever).
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I particularly hate this because it tramples upon the possibility for a third installation.
There is no possible way you can know that when we know nothing about the TOR story or any projects LA may have in the pipeline.

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Other projects like "the force unleashed" did not. Either do something completely different and leave KOTOR alone, or do the third installation, lucarts!
They are doing something different--they're setting it ahead 300 years so they don''t even have to mention a single thing about Kotor if they don''t want to. There's a Clone Wars game and it's set in the Old Republic, too. I suppose that's not OK, either. Heaven forbid we branch out into new territory.


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Old 11-25-2008, 09:10 PM   #213
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All it says in this completely non-scientific poll is there are 62 fans on Lucasforums who wished for K3 but won't see it any time soon (if ever).
Despite what the poll numbers say, there are are actually 61.


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Old 11-26-2008, 10:16 AM   #214
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That's right, this has enough in terms of numbers (>30) but this was not just a random sample drawn out from a whole. The majority of those that chose to vote were against 300 years later.

And Jae's example of France doesn't make sense to me. It would have been more like if France had been occupied right after the times of Napolion. Instead of liberating his State, Napolion would have left it exposed for invasion 150 years later by Germany. This did not happen, as France was the dominant power in Europe after Napoleon. And in between his campaign was WWI... therefore, WWII and Napolion's campaigns were completely unrelated.

And I will continue to believe that I was cheated. It was reasonable to assume, based on KOTOR II, that a third installation was going to be made. An official at Lucasarts had once stated "We won't leave KOTOR behind" It is reasonable to be disappointed that they made a huge climax and just left it behind.
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Old 11-26-2008, 10:53 AM   #215
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That's right, this has enough in terms of numbers (>30) but this was not just a random sample drawn out from a whole. The majority of those that chose to vote were against 300 years later.
That's because the questions in the poll directly link to KOTOR III, which is an unreasonable connection to make in the first place. You've assumed that TOR's story will directly relate to the KOTOR series, when there's no evidence of that.

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An official at Lucasarts had once stated "We won't leave KOTOR behind" It is reasonable to be disappointed that they made a huge climax and just left it behind.
Which, so far, they haven't left it behind. There hasn't been a game in 3-4 years, but that doesn't mean it's been left behind. The announcement of TOR doesn't mean that KOTOR is dead.







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Old 11-26-2008, 11:51 AM   #216
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There's also no evidence whatsoever that TOR is taking the place of KOTOR III, or that a KOTOR III won't happen because of TOR.
Actually, TOR is in place of KotOR 3. In the unveiling video Ray and Greg (BioWare founders) discuss why they are making this instead of KotOR 3, and how it is really KotOR 3, 4, 5, 6, etc.


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Old 11-26-2008, 12:03 PM   #217
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You cant compare those two. Its true and obvious TOR wont be taking the place of KOTOR III. But I bet you all heard their promises for learning what happened to Revan and the others.
Bioware hasn't abandoned yet the idea of KOTOR III. Although chances of it being created are minimal...
Now this poll is completely useless, because there is no meaning comparing TOR with a possible KOTOR III (No offence...)


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Old 11-26-2008, 12:04 PM   #218
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There's also no evidence whatsoever that TOR is taking the place of KOTOR III, or that a KOTOR III won't happen because of TOR.
Actually, there is, isn't there? I thought LA and Bioware basically have come out and said that is the case. I seem to remember that, although someone can correct me if that is wrong.

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Old 11-26-2008, 12:21 PM   #219
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You cant compare those two. Its true and obvious TOR wont be taking the place of KOTOR III. But I bet you all heard their promises for learning what happened to Revan and the others.
Bioware hasn't abandoned yet the idea of KOTOR III. Although chances of it being created are minimal...
Now this poll is completely useless, because there is no meaning comparing TOR with a possible KOTOR III (No offence...)
Uh...
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Actually, TOR is in place of KotOR 3. In the unveiling video Ray and Greg (BioWare founders) discuss why they are making this instead of KotOR 3, and how it is really KotOR 3, 4, 5, 6, etc.


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Old 11-26-2008, 12:25 PM   #220
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I stand corrected on that point - I have to say i've only recently started to follow the development of TOR, so I didn't know that.






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Old 11-26-2008, 01:00 PM   #221
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It has been explicitly stated that TOR was what was being made instead of KOTOR III, IV, ext. Since the first TOR... if there is a second or more after that... takes place 300 years later, most of what was in the KOTOR era is gone.

Some people said this was a clean slate to make a better story than right after TSL, but I didn't want a clean slate with no explanation for how it went from one era to the next outside of a vague history that would be told in the background of this new thing. If there were a proper ending to the first era... a KOTOR III... then I would be more accepting of TOR, but its emergence means the death of any of that.
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Old 11-26-2008, 02:19 PM   #222
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I have faith in this game and I hope it will be fun and all but it will never ever replace my hopes of a true KotOR 3.


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Old 11-26-2008, 04:02 PM   #223
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Actually, TOR is in place of KotOR 3. In the unveiling video Ray and Greg (BioWare founders) discuss why they are making this instead of KotOR 3, and how it is really KotOR 3, 4, 5, 6, etc.
No its not. They didnt say instead of KotOR 3 you really get 3, 4, 5, 6, etc.
They said that the story will be so big, that it will be like having KotOR 3, 4, 5, 6, etc altogether.

My opinion is that you cant compare two different games (RPG & MMORPG). Its like comparing milk with ice-cream.


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Old 11-26-2008, 08:05 PM   #224
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I'm more interested in the story than the change in the game format.

300 years later is like the comparison above in terms of the story. You can't make milk from ice-cream, but you can make ice-cream from milk. Naturally, you can't expect that all who demand milk would buy ice-cream. Once it's processed, you can't revert it.
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Old 11-26-2008, 09:46 PM   #225
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Darth Yuthura, your poll is hardly unbiassed. There was no possible alternative answer. Your poll has only "Yes it killed the story", "I don't mind that it killed the story," and "what story give me gameplay." To be a fair poll, you have to have Yes, No, Not sure. And honestly at this point, we have no idea what the story is. None of us know whether Revan was frozen in carbonite only to continue his story at a later date.

Where is the answer for the KotOR fans that won't play TOR because it's an MMO? The answer that reads, "I don't care because I won't play an MMO." The closest answer for them is either "yes it killed it" or "Gameplay is what matters"

And the milk and ice cream analogy:
ah but there are people who would buy milk that would buy ice cream, cheese, and other milk based products. And you couldn't expect that all the people that like ice cream would necessarily want to buy milk. Milk 300 years later can still be gotten. Maybe not from the same cow(as of yet), but it can still be gotten. erm... where the heck is this going?
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Old 11-27-2008, 02:00 AM   #226
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Just leave it there Tommycat!! Its not how old it is. Thanks for the milk_ice-cream Darth_Yuthura.
You made your point. Now we all want a KOTOR 3. That is a fact.

But if, I say IF, TOR gives us a good story (that fourth pillar of Bioware's) and has a good gameplay why not give it a try?

In this society you cant expect anything good to be given away just like that. Money is what rules us all. Thats why TOR is the winner and not KOTOR3.


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Old 11-27-2008, 02:39 PM   #227
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And the milk and ice cream analogy:
ah but there are people who would buy milk that would buy ice cream, cheese, and other milk based products. And you couldn't expect that all the people that like ice cream would necessarily want to buy milk. Milk 300 years later can still be gotten. Maybe not from the same cow(as of yet), but it can still be gotten. erm... where the heck is this going?
Well I was hoping it would lead towards a nice Denver omelet, but alas, it did not go there.

Yes, it's unfortunate that TOR as a concept is not what we KOTOR fans were looking for, but lets at least see if it's got a story of any sort, and ya know, give them a chance to present their product before flaying it and eating it alive.


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Old 11-27-2008, 04:08 PM   #228
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I am willing to give them a chance. I have given away so many chances, whats one more?
If we were getting paid for every time we were dissapointed by a project, we'd all be rich by now...


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Old 11-27-2008, 09:04 PM   #229
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Basically it comes down to reinventing its-self.

It has been some years since kotor2.
I believe Lucas Arts hard ideas and concepts for a kotor3 but when there was a shakeup in the company the idea of kotor3 was pushed back.

When they came around to making another kotor game they thought what can we bring new to the franchise of kotor.

They decided if they can bring the story alive in a mmo then that would be the best way to take the kotor series to the next level.

Some would argue that a better plan would be to make kotor3 and then have TOR mmo in the back and release it a year after to piggyback and boost sales.

I think once they saw the potential that a kotor mmo had they decided that thye can always leak what happen to Revan and Exile after kotor2 as a type of easter egg in TOR.

I see a lot of debate on having the mmo around the time of the original kotor series but I believe that is what hurt Galaxy.

Galaxy was limited in story since we all knew what happens.
In TOR mmo you will have no idea whats going to happen, no limits.

What made Kotor1/2 so great was the ability to break away from the limits of the Skywalker galaxy. This allowed new characters, new worlds new adventures. It made kotor so fresh and new.

What makes a great Epic is the ability to care for the characters and to keep the reader/player anxious on what will happen on the next page in the adventure.

I never played a mmo but TOR with its story feature makes me want to jump in and ride the adventure just as I did when I first saw the Star wars movies and kotor games. Its a great feeling

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Old 11-28-2008, 05:47 AM   #230
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on an unrelated note, has anybody seen the new screenshots released a few hours ago? Looks alot better then the first batch. Despite the fact that i want to finish the story set out in K1 and K2 i'm starting to get slighty excited about the potential of this MMO.
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Old 11-28-2008, 01:07 PM   #231
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How many novels and storylines had been created since ROTJ? If the Star Wars universe gets old after a length of time, then why were so many new novels, stories, characters, and plots come within years of the original trilogy?

I think that the enrichment of a given period of history is what would have made KOTOR III even better. It disappoints me that they throw most of that away by going ahead 300 years. I didn't want something completely new, but and enrichment of the Galaxy at the time of Revan and the Sith war.

But this is getting nowhere. I don't expect this post to convince anyone who've already made their stand.
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Old 11-28-2008, 08:51 PM   #232
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Originally Posted by Darth_Yuthura View Post
How many novels and storylines had been created since ROTJ? If the Star Wars universe gets old after a length of time, then why were so many new novels, stories, characters, and plots come within years of the original trilogy?

I think that the enrichment of a given period of history is what would have made KOTOR III even better. It disappoints me that they throw most of that away by going ahead 300 years. I didn't want something completely new, but and enrichment of the Galaxy at the time of Revan and the Sith war.

But this is getting nowhere. I don't expect this post to convince anyone who've already made their stand.
I haven't made any stand. Quite frankly I am just saying that with as little info as we have it is too early to tell if they killed the story of Revan and the Exile. Quite frankly YOU are the one making a stand by saying that it has killed it with NO real proof that they killed anything. You made the claim of murder. Back it up with evidence.

Besides, leaving 300 years in between leaves plenty of room for people to come up with heroic tales following the events of TSL. If anything it preserves the time period for those that want to create their own story.
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Old 11-28-2008, 09:12 PM   #233
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I wish I could retract my vote. TOR has little to nothing to do with the KOTOR series and it places no restrictions on a possible KOTOR 3 (except for Revan apparently failing, but I'm not losing any sleep over that).


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Old 11-28-2008, 10:18 PM   #234
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I wish I could retract my vote. TOR has little to nothing to do with the KOTOR series and it places no restrictions on a possible KOTOR 3 (except for Revan apparently failing, but I'm not losing any sleep over that).
Having potentially 3 (if not more) of the characters from the original KOTOR games and the main villian introduced for the first time in The Sith Lords is not a little to no connection.


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Old 12-03-2008, 01:42 PM   #235
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Many KotOR fans upset that they are apparently being robbed of the opportunity to participate in the conclusion of a story they had been a part of for two-thirds of the telling. Instead they will be told the conclusion through one medium or another. As a property LA and Bioware have the right to do with it as they wish, yet I don't think there should be anything suprising that there are many fans of the SPRPG series upset with it.

I am surprised though that people believe that TOR won't provide information regarding what that conclusion was, particularly given that thousands of years of Star Wars history revolve around the conflict between the Jedi and the Sith. In a game world as massive and detailed as an MMO should be, it's inconceivable to me that the events following TSL won't be given a massive amount of treatment in in-game lore.

Just because 99% of MMO players skip through quest text, NPC text, NPC chatter, and other lore-related material in favor of making their toons as uber as possible as quickly as possible doesn't mean that lore doesn't exist. World of Warcraft, for example, has hundreds, even thousands of years of (often invented as-needed) lore as a basis for the content in the game, whether included directly or as "background" for characters, quests, and locations. If TOR expects to be the marvel of a MMO world that Star Wars could and should be, it MUST be based on and include substantial information from the period since TSL. Furthermore, this isn't truly an ancient civlization we're talking about here where events three-hundred years past might as well be from a fictional epic poem...the Star Wars universe is riddled with people or groups with the means and drive to record and preserve history, and the Republic itself is a monument to historical continuity.

What happens to Revan and Exile and their quest to find and stop (or join?) the threat in the Unknown Regions will be addressed in TOR, IMO, at least to the point that a player will have a good idea how any subsequently produced single-player KotOR III ends before they create their character (if they've played TOR). If, indeed, the threat is the same Sith Empire being dealt with by the Republic in TOR--something that seems to be implied by Bioware and LA--"endgame" content will almost necessitate that the means of their success or failure be addressed in some fashion for players who "beat the game" (ie, progress through all plot-based content). Unless, of course, Revan and Exile become utterly irrelevant to the Star Wars story after TSL, which would be a different sort of disgrace all by itself.

Anyway, the problem as I see it isn't that TOR won't conclude the KotOR series--it almost certainly will include a conlcusion to that story in some fashion--it's that the player had originally been an intimate part of that story unfolding and an MMO set 300 years later takes that out of their hands.

The really upsetting thing to me will be when, five years from now, LA tries to put out a single-player KotOR III. IMO the point of the 300-year gap was first a shameless attempt to pass TOR off to KotOR fans as a continuation of the KotOR saga in order to secure a "fanbase" for their MMO, and second to allow a period substantial enough that a KotOR III covering a few months or years could be told to milk even more money out of the same story, except that the story of such a KotOR III will be constrained by both KotOR I and II and TOR, which IMO is a recipe for story-telling disaster. The conlusion will already be known, such that a KotOR III would amount to gooshy details or "fanfic." Basing a story on past events but leaving oneself the opportunity to tell it wherever it goes generally yields much better results than trying to match up specific events of a story with what will happen in the near future--witness the Star Wars prequels.

As an aside, characterizing everybody who wanted a "proper" single-player conclusion to the KotOR series as fanboyz only interested in Revan and Exile kicking arse and seeing all the old party NPCs survive and pwning the True Sith or whatever is extremely unfair. Many of us wanted a thoughtful story that unfolded in an exciting and entertaining fashion as we participated in it first-hand with our player-character, regardless of the fates of the characters we have come to know.
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Old 12-03-2008, 03:07 PM   #236
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characterizing everybody who wanted a "proper" single-player conclusion to the KotOR series as fanboyz only interested in Revan and Exile kicking arse and seeing all the old party NPCs survive and pwning the True Sith or whatever is extremely unfair.
When you add three to five, you get eight. It doesn't have to be fair to be [mostly] true.


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Old 12-03-2008, 10:44 PM   #237
Darth_Yuthura
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Darth Yuthura, your poll is hardly unbiassed. There was no possible alternative answer. Your poll has only "Yes it killed the story", "I don't mind that it killed the story," and "what story give me gameplay." To be a fair poll, you have to have Yes, No, Not sure.
Then am I to assume that you chose not to take part in this 'biassed' poll? If I were just spouting off for nothing, then this thread would have died out a long time ago. I'm not trying to be a nuisance, but for some reason, people keep posting on this thread and it's not just me.

If anyone is discontent with my biassed poll, then by all means, don't complain about a thread that you chose to keep viewing. This isn't me being pushy... I don't force anything upon people who choose to keep posting on this thread.
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Old 12-03-2008, 10:59 PM   #238
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People may be posting in this thread, but that same logic loops back to you.

Why post in a forum about a game you hate and will never buy?
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Old 12-05-2008, 08:51 AM   #239
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Then am I to assume that you chose not to take part in this 'biassed' poll? If I were just spouting off for nothing, then this thread would have died out a long time ago. I'm not trying to be a nuisance, but for some reason, people keep posting on this thread and it's not just me.

If anyone is discontent with my biassed poll, then by all means, don't complain about a thread that you chose to keep viewing. This isn't me being pushy... I don't force anything upon people who choose to keep posting on this thread.
The problem is that you are using that poll to back up your claim. If you are using a poll to back up your claim it should be free of bias, and offer real alternatives. I could make a poll and use it to say people like wife beating if I word it correctly.

This thread is in a forum dedicated to a game I am interested in. Yer dang right I'll post in it even if only to provide the other opinion. And actually you are spouting off for nothing. but the thread doesn't die because there IS disagreement. Threads that have a consensus generally get ignored or have simple posts that say "QFE" in them.
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Old 12-05-2008, 09:52 AM   #240
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A KotOR 3 RPG would easily be better than some KotOR-not-so-"KotOR"-because-its-300-years-later-so-its-just-"tOR" MMO.
I'm not expecting a fantastic storyline, George Lucas continues to beat his own franchise with a hammer, and squeeze all the blood he can from it that all they can do now is set something a few thousand years ago where no one has invented anything else. <_< I guess its better than SWG where they just plonked it between Ep4 and 6.

Force Unleashed tipped the boat for crap Star Wars storylines and at the same time set the standard for most amazing gameplay ever seen for any Star Wars RPG. I couldn't care less what Bioware come out with as a storyline because its gonna be pretty lame anyway.

If Bioware can at least pull gameplay off then it'll be a moderate success for me


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