View Poll Results: Is TOR as satisfying to people as KOTOR III?
It's an ending and I'm glad that they will continue from TSL. 26 19.26%
Being 300 years too late killed the story. 88 65.19%
Couldn't care less. The gameplay is what matters. 30 22.22%
There's absolutely no way to know until TOR actually comes out. 2 1.48%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 135. You may not vote on this poll


Thread: Is TOR as good as KOTOR III?
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Old 12-05-2008, 03:16 PM   #241
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Force Unleashed tipped the boat for crap Star Wars storylines and
I think I just lost a brain cell. Say what you want about TFU's quality, but if you seriously think it's among the worst Star Wars has to offer, you need to get things in perspective (reading a Traviss novel or one of the LOTF books would be a good way).


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Old 12-05-2008, 03:44 PM   #242
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I think I just lost a brain cell. Say what you want about TFU's quality, but if you seriously think it's among the worst Star Wars has to offer, you need to get things in perspective (reading a Traviss novel or one of the LOTF books would be a good way).
Hey! I liked Legacy of the Force. Even though, they killed off most of my favorite characters of Luke Skywalker's Jedi Order, it was still a nice series to read.



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Old 12-06-2008, 04:44 AM   #243
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I think I just lost a brain cell. Say what you want about TFU's quality, but if you seriously think it's among the worst Star Wars has to offer, you need to get things in perspective (reading a Traviss novel or one of the LOTF books would be a good way).
I think TFU was far from the worst story, but after playing TFU I'm not expecting brilliant storylines from Star Wars now.


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Old 12-07-2008, 04:18 PM   #244
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I guess that I was just hoping for a conclusion to TSL that had at least some effort to it. I don't think dropping everything and going 300 years later is much of a conclusion to me.

TFU endings were both bad because the secret apprentice dies or becomes a new Vader. The cannon ending would have been much better if it had an ending that didn't involve facing Vader and the Emperor because those are impossible odds. It would be better if these SW stories didn't always have the fate of the Galaxy resting with the Hero. Scale it down a bit!
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Old 12-10-2008, 10:59 PM   #245
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Exclamation ALERT, ==MAJOR== SPOILERS AND LONG ESSAY AHEAD BWOO BWOO BWOO BWAAAAAAAAA

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I guess that I was just hoping for a conclusion to TSL that had at least some effort to it. I don't think dropping everything and going 300 years later is much of a conclusion to me.
That's true, because TOR is not intended to be a conclusion to TSL, and criticizing this MMO for not doing that is like criticizing an archer for being a poor fencer.

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TFU endings were both bad because the secret apprentice dies or becomes a new Vader. The cannon ending would have been much better if it had an ending that didn't involve facing Vader and the Emperor because those are impossible odds. It would be better if these SW stories didn't always have the fate of the Galaxy resting with the Hero. Scale it down a bit!
See, this sort of lack of imagination is the reason I don't read most fan fiction. Nobody can ever think of anything original. I admit I'm somewhat surprised that you complain that the endings were too epic - everyone else I've heard complains that Galen should have survived both endings; that he should have gone into hiding to fight another day in the light ending, and killed both Darth Sidious and Darth Vader and become the next Emperor in the dark ending. Needless to say, both of these ideas are absurdly fanboyish garbage, because winning and surviving has happened in every single other light side ending LA has ever done, and killing the main villain and becoming Prince of the Universe (or whatever) has happened in every single other dark side ending LA has ever done.

Both TFU endings are the best endings Lucasarts has ever done, by default because they were actually original. Every past Star Wars game with more than one ending has suffered from KOTOR Ending Syndrome (and that's assuming that KOTOR can be said to have an ending), and I admit I expected nothing different in TFU's case, but I must say I was delighted when I realized that TFU was a game with endings that not only would actually be good, but good whether the player wanted it or not.

Why is the light side ending good? Because Galen dies, killed by Darth Sidious because Sidious is far stronger than him, and doing what is right never comes without a sacrifice. Simple as that. Much better than the trash I expected it to be. You say that the story shouldn't have had Galen fight Sidious and Vader. Who should he have had to fight instead, some other villain that was never heard of before? Besides, if the odds of Galen's survival weren't virtually impossible, what would that say about his courage?

In fact, I dare say the dark side ending was far better than the light one. A number of people could have guessed that Galen would sacrifice himself in the good ending, but nobody expected anything in the evil ending other than Galen becoming the next Emperor of the galaxy (which is retarded for a multitude of reasons, and I'm not even counting the fact that Galen wouldn't stand a snowball's chance in hell against Sidious in a real fight) - when the player first sees Galen turn and attack Sidious instead of Kota, they're surprised that Sidious blocks it, but still probably expect a final boss fight with the Emperor. Do they get it? No. Sidious blasts him with his trademark *****-slap lightning and throws him through a window. The player is still thinking "I still get one chance at defeating the Emperor, right?" And when the player sees Sidious grab that ship and throw it at Galen, they think he dies. Seeing the character die like that in and of itself is a major mind-**** when you expected something completely different.

When the player realizes that the story isn't quite over yet and the scene changes to the same room where Vader was reconstructed, that's when the real mind-**** takes place: the player forgot that because Vader died, Sidious needs an apprentice - whether the apprentice is willing or not. This forms the most badass dark side ending in the history of Star Wars - and it's not because of the brilliant irony that as a result of his greed and wrath Galen is now far worse off than he could ever have imagined himself being, nor is it because of how it undeniably drives home the fact that Galen never stood a chance against Sidious. It's not even because it shows what evil is rewarded with. It's the best ending Lucasarts ever made for a game such as this because it was not only completely unexpected, but also logical.

Of course, almost nobody even realized any of the above, and even fewer people cared - the community wanted the canned light and dark side endings that they had seen in all of the previous LA games to be in TFU, also. Simply put, the community at large didn't want a good ending.

As for you complaining about the scale of the whole thing, you're making the same mistake here as you are about TOR not finishing TSL's story - just as TOR is not supposed to finish TSL, TFU is not supposed to be smaller in scale. You're criticizing the story for being itself, not for doing anything wrong.


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Old 12-10-2008, 11:18 PM   #246
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<snip>
Here Here. I think the TFU endings were amazing and original. Also since this IS a mmo, it will be a very long storyline to keep the game going. Probably multiple storylines in quests to defeat the sith or jedi. MMOs are typically very long games.

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Old 12-10-2008, 11:19 PM   #247
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Ehh, sorry about the essay. Couldn't help myself.


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Old 12-10-2008, 11:22 PM   #248
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Ehh, sorry about the essay. Couldn't help myself.
It was very moving

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Old 12-11-2008, 09:32 PM   #249
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TFU at least required some effort. Anyone could just turn chaos into more chaos. I could literally make a TSL conclusion that is better than what Lucasarts has done. Yes, I don mean 'literally' in its proper tense.

They didn't create and original or even an unorthadox conclusion... they did nothing at all. Anyone and everyone could do that.
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Old 12-11-2008, 10:04 PM   #250
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I could literally make a TSL conclusion that is better than what Lucasarts has done
I very much doubt that.

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I could literally make a TSL conclusion that is better than what Lucasarts has done.
You ignore the fact that they didn't create a TSL conclusion, nor did they even intend to.


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Old 12-15-2008, 05:39 PM   #251
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I very much doubt that.


You ignore the fact that they didn't create a TSL conclusion, nor did they even intend to.
So you are saying I could make a better conclusion. Not having one at all is worse than a poor ending.

TSL left off with a great cliffhanger, but Lucasarts probably couldn't come up with a decent resolution, or didn't bother trying, so they just left it up to gamer's imaginations.

Remember the Next Generation episode 'Best of Both Worlds' Part one was the greatest episode of that series, but the second part had a terrible resolution that detracted from all the suspense of the first part. TSL was very much the same way, so they didn't even try.
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Old 12-15-2008, 07:22 PM   #252
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So you are saying I could make a better conclusion.


"There is something going on in time and space, and beyond time and space, which, whether we like it or not, spells duty." -Winston Churchill

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Old 12-15-2008, 07:38 PM   #253
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I'm not so arrogant as to think I can top an entire production team.

I'm simply saying that I can top a production team that does nothing at all. If they were to come up with a resolution to TSL, it would be better than anything I could create. However, because they haven't...

Essentially anyone could do that... I'm not pointing to me.

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Old 12-21-2008, 02:30 AM   #254
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You mean to tell me that you see almost no connection between the current KOTOR games and what is being announced here? Seriously?
I agree with this particular comment. I am not a hard core kotor fan, but it is one of the most enjoyable SW games. But like prime said, its hard not to see a connection between the Tor and Kotor. Not saying that kotor is completed by the release of Tor but seems to me like Tor is a good escape for both those Kotor fans that also like mmo's, SW general fans, and all the forgotten SWG fans. SWG had a wicked rp society. so many SW nerds like myself in there. With the quality of storyline that Bio can produce, id say Tor will pretty much cover every aspect any game can have (thus far in technology). If the thought of an mmo, other players talking to you, and people looking at you on their screens, i say create a private server of Tor and wallaah! kotor 3. haha.
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Old 01-01-2009, 01:34 AM   #255
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In short, no.

In long, nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.
Haha, that's from that spore review video
I agree though, it is not a worthy sequel


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Old 01-01-2009, 08:43 AM   #256
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KOTOR and TSL were blockbuster movies. TOR is a soap opera.
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Old 01-02-2009, 02:30 AM   #257
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KOTOR and TSL were blockbuster movies. TOR is a soap opera.

+10 awesome points for making my day


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Old 01-02-2009, 04:11 PM   #258
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I'm simply saying that I can top a production team that does nothing at all. If they were to come up with a resolution to TSL, it would be better than anything I could create. However, because they haven't...
What you don't seem to accept is that there is an ending. Is it a bad one? Depends on the player. For me it was one of the worst they could have made, but it's still an ending, and a cliffhanger, as you said. Now, you may claim there's no ending, but there is one, you merely don't like it.


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Old 01-02-2009, 05:39 PM   #259
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What you don't seem to accept is that there is an ending. Is it a bad one? Depends on the player. For me it was one of the worst they could have made, but it's still an ending, and a cliffhanger, as you said. Now, you may claim there's no ending, but there is one, you merely don't like it.
I think what he was asking for was to have KOTOR III contain a resolution to TSL's cliffhanger
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Old 01-02-2009, 06:33 PM   #260
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I think what he was asking for was to have KOTOR III contain a resolution to TSL's cliffhanger
Only if he changed his point of view on those last few posts. His initial argument was the poor TSL ending.


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Old 01-02-2009, 09:46 PM   #261
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I thought that TSL ending was decent had it properly been finished in the first place. The reason why that ending is so terrible now is because of this new game that makes the True Sith resolution expected for the third installment come to an anti-climatic conclusion. If there were a KOTOR III that defeated the True Sith, then TSL would have meant something.
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Old 01-02-2009, 11:00 PM   #262
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I thought that TSL ending was decent had it properly been finished in the first place. The reason why that ending is so terrible now is because of this new game that makes the True Sith resolution expected for the third installment come to an anti-climatic conclusion. If there were a KOTOR III that defeated the True Sith, then TSL would have meant something.
TOR's backstory is the epilogue for the moment that TSL was building. Putting it in that context, the KOTOR storyline wasn't quite ready for TOR just yet. Sure, KOTOR III could have been an MMO, but the moment that TSL was building needed to be experienced by us the player (we experienced everything else!).

As of right now, I would say TOR has ruined TSL's ending, but I do think it's still a bit early to cement that thought, so it is subject to change.
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Old 01-03-2009, 02:56 PM   #263
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Old 01-04-2009, 05:56 AM   #264
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Thumbs down Let the fail be epic.

First lets talk story.
Not only are a large amount of people upset about the player not being able to finish what they started. (With Revan, Bastila, Carth, etc.) 300 years later, all the characters that have made this story what it is, are now dead. They cleared the casting line. Not a single original character will return. I find that a little upsetting. All the character development in the last 2 games? Gone. Pointless. Bye, bye.
TSLs ending is just another piece of the epic fail cake. The ending was (at least from what I gathered.) attempting to leave you on the edge of your seat wondering "Is Revan dead, is Revan alive, where could Revan be?"
Nope. 300 years later. Hes dead. End of that.
Now lets talk MMO decision.
I continue to harp back to these points.
TSL (As we can all agree.) was heavily criticized by a large proportion of the KoTOR fan-base as either unfinished, or unworthy when compared to its predecessor.
Starwars Galaxies (Lucases CURRENT STARWARS MMO.) was heavily criticized, for whatever reasons, by a vast majority of starwars fans...period.
TFU was, from what I heard, also very over-hyped. Another disappointment to many starwars fans.
Ladies, lets do some math.
TSL = Satisfying.(Reviews Score it at a B+ game.)
Starwars Galaxes = Unsatisfying. (Reviews Score it at a C game.)
TFU = Disappointing (Reviews Score it at a C- game.) Anyone see the trend?
Take TSLs storyline, and apply it to Starwars Galaxies game-type, then add in the factor of LAs most currently released game title.
= Epic fail.
Seriously. Bioware is the only saving grace for LA on this game. If it was anyone else, the project wouldn't have made it off its feet.
Any real BUISNESS would have realized there would be more money in releasing an awsome sequel to pump up the build for the MMO. (A la Blizzard and their Warcraft series.)
Why should I even bother pointing out that the entire world is JUST ENTERING into a global economic crisis, and that people won't be happy paying monthy for even basics. Let alone entertainment.
Gotta love LAs tenacity to screw over their loyal fans though. Right?[/RANT]


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Old 01-05-2009, 05:45 PM   #265
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Not only are a large amount of people upset about the player not being able to finish what they started. (With Revan, Bastila, Carth, etc.) 300 years later, all the characters that have made this story what it is, are now dead. They cleared the casting line. Not a single original character will return. I find that a little upsetting. All the character development in the last 2 games? Gone. Pointless. Bye, bye.


TSL = Satisfying.(Reviews Score it at a B+ game.)
Starwars Galaxes = Unsatisfying. (Reviews Score it at a C game.)
TFU = Disappointing (Reviews Score it at a C- game.) Anyone see the trend?


Gotta love LAs tenacity to screw over their loyal fans though. Right?[/RANT]
Thanks. Nice to know there are others who've noticed such significant details about such an irrelevant piece of fiction. If KOTOR is just doomed to die, at least let it die with some dignity.

I agree with all the reasons you gave.
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Old 01-14-2009, 01:59 AM   #266
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KOTOR and TSL were blockbuster movies. TOR is a soap opera.
In that case, as long as TOR has a shirtless guy with glistening pects romancing my girl, I'll be a happy Jae.


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Old 01-14-2009, 03:06 AM   #267
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Nooo!

Not another Carth and Orlando Bloom wrestling in lime Jello tangent!


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Old 01-14-2009, 05:44 PM   #268
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Nooo!

Not another Carth and Orlando Bloom wrestling in lime Jello tangent!
Cherry jello works.


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Old 01-15-2009, 02:33 AM   #269
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Do people have great joy that there is a conclusion to the KOTOR series, or does it detract from the original two games?
I believe its a good closer to the series overall. Like a math equation equaling pi, it just keeps going.


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Old 01-20-2009, 05:27 PM   #270
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First lets talk story.
Not only are a large amount of people upset about the player not being able to finish what they started. (With Revan, Bastila, Carth, etc.) 300 years later, all the characters that have made this story what it is, are now dead. They cleared the casting line. Not a single original character will return. I find that a little upsetting. All the character development in the last 2 games? Gone. Pointless. Bye, bye.
TSLs ending is just another piece of the epic fail cake. The ending was (at least from what I gathered.) attempting to leave you on the edge of your seat wondering "Is Revan dead, is Revan alive, where could Revan be?"
Nope. 300 years later. Hes dead. End of that.
Now lets talk MMO decision.
I continue to harp back to these points.
TSL (As we can all agree.) was heavily criticized by a large proportion of the KoTOR fan-base as either unfinished, or unworthy when compared to its predecessor.
Starwars Galaxies (Lucases CURRENT STARWARS MMO.) was heavily criticized, for whatever reasons, by a vast majority of starwars fans...period.
TFU was, from what I heard, also very over-hyped. Another disappointment to many starwars fans.
Ladies, lets do some math.
TSL = Satisfying.(Reviews Score it at a B+ game.)
Starwars Galaxes = Unsatisfying. (Reviews Score it at a C game.)
TFU = Disappointing (Reviews Score it at a C- game.) Anyone see the trend?
Take TSLs storyline, and apply it to Starwars Galaxies game-type, then add in the factor of LAs most currently released game title.
= Epic fail.
Seriously. Bioware is the only saving grace for LA on this game. If it was anyone else, the project wouldn't have made it off its feet.
Any real BUISNESS would have realized there would be more money in releasing an awsome sequel to pump up the build for the MMO. (A la Blizzard and their Warcraft series.)
Why should I even bother pointing out that the entire world is JUST ENTERING into a global economic crisis, and that people won't be happy paying monthy for even basics. Let alone entertainment.
Gotta love LAs tenacity to screw over their loyal fans though. Right?[/RANT]
I totally agree here, they could have at least finished the trilogy. look at what bioware was capable of in mass effect. imagine a kotor game like that, it would be an awesome game! i guess its too good to be true then...
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Old 01-22-2009, 08:15 AM   #271
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I agree... obviously, but never really mentioned that the movies worked well as trilogies instead of individual pieces. When you have a consistent group of characters over a span of three, you get to know them better and watch them change and grow. That doesn't exactly work the same as in KOTOR, but the second game was essentially supposed to be like 'Empire strikes back.' If 'Return of the Jedi' took place 300 years later, then what's the point?
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Old 01-22-2009, 11:19 AM   #272
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Maybe they did that for a reason you know, so if bioware suddenly changed their minds and decided to make kotor 3 they would still have room to fit kotor 3 in between tsl and tor eras, who knows. . . maybe in the next few years we'll finally have kotor 3 'the something'
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Old 01-22-2009, 02:47 PM   #273
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I don't mean to dog on ToR, but online play is a drastic change from single-player RPG such as the previous Kotor. Other elements get thrown into mix, that make it less simple and fun imo.


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Old 01-22-2009, 06:59 PM   #274
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Doesn't really matter if it is as good as KoToR III, it IS KoToR III so we better just make the best with what we've got = )


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Old 01-22-2009, 11:22 PM   #275
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I'm not holding onto hope that TOR will be as good as KOTOR III. To start out by erasing most of what developed within the first two games detracts from the game's potential. TOR is NOT going to attract KOTOR fans because of this. All they had to do was place the story within a decade of the last game... simple as that. Now we have something that is completely original, but kills any conclusion for the characters of KOTOR.
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Old 01-24-2009, 03:15 AM   #276
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This is crap. I wanted a sp rpg. Not only that but if the "third installment" has to me an mmo, at least make it a third installment with some of the same characters and in the same time period.


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Old 01-24-2009, 10:35 AM   #277
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I keep forgetting the part where this is supposed to be a third installment.


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Old 01-24-2009, 12:03 PM   #278
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It can be good if Bioware do what they promised and make this like no other MMO, the thing that scares me, is that most of the whining being done on the official boards is "We want a sandbox, we want a player economy, player housing, crafting" and there is no mention of Story, Character progression, impact on storyline etc, which scares me.

I think a lot of the people flooding the boards are just MMO lovers who want somewhere to have a social life when SWG closes shop... Basically everything that made KotOR good is absent, and everything that makes MMO's boring, "Use your imagination cus there's nothing to do or look at", and non-Star Wars is present (IMO). I just wish that Bioware would release some info on what where actually gonna be playing... the SIMs, or something worthy of being in the place of a SPRPG KotOR 3.


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Old 01-24-2009, 03:54 PM   #279
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Originally Posted by JediMasterJambi View Post
Ladies, lets do some math. [...]
Gotta love LAs tenacity to screw over their loyal fans though. Right?[/RANT]
Wow, this was necessary.

If you don't like it, then don't pay for it. Go ahead and stop posting in the TOR forum, if you really want to stick it to them.

_EW_



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Old 01-25-2009, 08:57 AM   #280
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The thing I dislike about it most is that it is an MMO. I tried Galaxies recently, and the experience was bad. Sure, it was an ok game, somewhat balanced and all that jazz, it even had a small storyline which you could follow.
What went wrong? Well, a Star Wars game should be cinematic, and not so reliant on having to kill X creatures to get X resources, then travel to spot Y. Rinse and repeat to gain a level. Levels should be meaningful, even lower ones. It was extremely ironic to be killed in one shot by a Stormtrooper on Corellia, while being at level 6. I thought these guys weren't that tough.
I'm afraid that The Old Republic will fall into the same mold. In order to follow any kind of story, you have to grind to level X. To grind, keep repeatedly eliminating creatures over here and there.
Compare that to the Knights of the Old Republic games, where, true, you do fight creatures and you do kill lots of Sith troops and dark Jedi all over the galaxy, but it all has some meaning to it. Also, they do not materialise out of nowhere behind you or next to you like in Galaxies.

If there will be a story at all. Because an MMORPG can't have a written story (that makes you feel like a big movie hero), quite evidently.

On one hand, having the entire thing set 300 years into the future is bad, because it is no longer the same time frame. I'd like to see rebuilding efforts take place just after the Dark Wars period. I'd like to see the True Sith start to appear or the remains of the Sith struggle for survival (for a change!). I'd like to learn what happened to Revan and the Exile. Maybe we will get to learn this last part, and maybe not.
On the other hand, I think that maybe setting it 300 years later is good in a way. There is space for KOTOR III if it ever comes out. (However, I doubt it, since then it would have to fit in with this story, and that means the True Sith winning, which the player knows in advance)
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