View Poll Results: Is TOR as satisfying to people as KOTOR III?
It's an ending and I'm glad that they will continue from TSL. 26 19.26%
Being 300 years too late killed the story. 88 65.19%
Couldn't care less. The gameplay is what matters. 30 22.22%
There's absolutely no way to know until TOR actually comes out. 2 1.48%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 135. You may not vote on this poll


Thread: Is TOR as good as KOTOR III?
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Old 01-25-2009, 02:55 PM   #281
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If I wanted to play an MMO, I would restart my WoW subscription. I'm not even going to try TOR. MMO's are great if you have no desire to do anything before you die of old age than farm goldz all day.
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Old 01-25-2009, 03:06 PM   #282
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But the reason for everything turning MMO is simple. You can't copy an MMO for free, and most people age 10-20 rather spend $200+/year to kill 1,000,000,000 giant spiders so that they can stand in a crowd and show the ph4t piece of loot they got for it.
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Old 01-25-2009, 04:42 PM   #283
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I tried Galaxies recently, and the experience was bad.
I'd like to point out that Galaxies is a sucky game nowadays.
When I played it (almost 5 years ago) it was actually worthwhile.

So you may still dislike it because it will be an MMO, but don't try to use Galaxies as reasoning because Galaxies was destroyed by SOE.

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Old 01-26-2009, 12:57 PM   #284
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^^

Yeah, you got it. If Galaxies was never that great to begin with and is now a 'sucky' game, then why continue the trend? What has changed?

Since it's not KOTOR, there is no trend to assume it will have success like those games. In fact, I would go so far as to say anything in regard to KOTOR would continue a trend of getting inferior with each game.

My advice to Lucasarts: no TOR and no KOTOR III.
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Old 01-26-2009, 09:12 PM   #285
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^^

Yeah, you got it. If Galaxies was never that great to begin with and is now a 'sucky' game, then why continue the trend? What has changed?
The developers.

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Originally Posted by Darth_Yuthura View Post
Since it's not KOTOR, there is no trend to assume it will have success like those games. In fact, I would go so far as to say anything in regard to KOTOR would continue a trend of getting inferior with each game.
It's not much of a trend if there are only two games so far.


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Old 01-26-2009, 09:35 PM   #286
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Yeah, you got it. If Galaxies was never that great to begin with and is now a 'sucky' game, then why continue the trend? What has changed?
Bioware?

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Old 01-27-2009, 03:20 AM   #287
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When I first heard the announcement that it would be MMO, I knew I would never play TOR. Ever. Just not interested. Even though the KOTOR 2 that should have been (and is being restored) is perhaps my second favorite RPG after Torment. The first KOTOR is maybe number 6 on my list. And I've been a huge Star Wars fan since the age of 3. But MMO? No thanks. I'm not the target audience.

But then something made me feel better. If EA had released KOTOR 3, I wouldn't have been able to buy it because of nasty DRM. So at least this way, it's easier not to buy it. Since, you know, I don't want to. Life is easier when temptations are removed by outside forces.
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Old 01-27-2009, 06:13 AM   #288
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If EA had released KOTOR 3, I wouldn't have been able to buy it because of nasty DRM.
Sounds like a personal problem.

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Old 01-27-2009, 02:40 PM   #289
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Sounds like a personal problem.

_EW_
Very funny. I'm not going to derail the thread into EA DRM unpleasantry. Just saying "if DRM, then I won't buy".

Also, your little snark made me reread my post. Didn't notice it the first time, but don't you think it's interesting that a huge Star Wars fan and huge KOTOR fan does not consider himself the target audience for the shiny new Star Wars role playing game?

Another observation: while non-mmo people understand how many people do like mmos, mmo people lack that awareness of the other side. There really are a lot of gamers with no interest in mmos, and who simply won't play one. Interestingly enough, many of those are the die hards are single player rpg players (caveat -- this is only anecdotal in that I know a lot of people who fall into that category, and have seen many online).
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Old 01-27-2009, 04:09 PM   #290
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I myself haven't played any MMO. I tried to play Galaxies back then, but not something serious, just the 15-day trial...
I am not hardcore fan, but I love the Star Wars Saga...
This is actually the first time I seriously consider playing an MMO. That is for various reasons.
First of all, Bioware. As EnderWiggin pointed out before, SWG was destroyed by SOE. I have faith that this project, with a huge budget if I might add, will not fail like SWG did. And there is hardly a game left from Bioware that I haven't played and enjoyed!
Second of all, there is no KotOR3, and I really love SW games. How will I spend my free time? I know, there are better things, but there is still time left to spend...
Third of all, sociality! I've joined a Guild. Met the members. I chat with them, share opinions, have some fun. This is what MMOs are for. At least from our side. Cause from companies' side, it is all about making money!


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Old 01-27-2009, 09:59 PM   #291
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Another observation: while non-mmo people understand how many people do like mmos, mmo people lack that awareness of the other side.
Read this thread harder then.


Let's kill ourselves.
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Old 01-29-2009, 06:01 AM   #292
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Another observation: while non-mmo people understand how many people do like mmos, mmo people lack that awareness of the other side.
Wow, that's insulting. It also happens to be the opposite of the truth. Almost all MMO players were at one time SP players. I used to despise MMO's. If this thread shows anything, it shows how the MMO people know the SP position, but the SP people tend to ignore the MMO position. In fact most of us would rather have had KotOR III, but are ok with it being an MMO. Maybe it shows that MMO players are more willing to try a game that might be good rather than dismiss it outright because it doesn't fit our prejudiced view.
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Old 01-29-2009, 11:17 AM   #293
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I'm one of those SP players.....I have yet to play an MMO....
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Old 01-30-2009, 03:11 AM   #294
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I'm also a single-player gamer, but likely would have switched to MMO for KOTOR III. I won't even try this because it kills any KOTOR III possibility.
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Old 01-30-2009, 03:48 AM   #295
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I'm also a single-player gamer, but likely would have switched to MMO for KOTOR III. I won't even try this because it kills any KOTOR III possibility.
What exactly did it kill?

Another game where you play as a new person with amnesia with some references to the previous game, in which older characters are poorly stitched in to bring in the crowds?

TSL killed KOTOR III long before TOR did.

Want to play as Revan again? Exile? It is incredibly difficult to continue a character that, in the first game, the player determined the personality of. The only feasible way to do is to...

Well, what do you know. Give them amnesia again!

Wait. Wouldn't of that have been the first KOTOR's storyline verbatim? A good part of the second?

I'd rather play as neither than a poorly stitched together character that tries to play to the personality style of the character you created in the original game. I'd rather play as neither instead of the same character who loses their memory again, or loses their power again in order to vomit up some excuse as to why you have to level up again and gain all your powers back.

The main problem is, again, it is not feasible to continue an RPG player personal character without incredible attention to detail and a team stitching them together throughout the entire process.

That is probably going to work with Mass Effect, because it is the same company, team, etc putting it together that will apparently work off of your last game's save game.

Why would it not work with KOTOR III? Because they were made by different companys and writers.

Obsidian did the second game, and Avellone did the second story. Problem? Avellone has his own writing style, and his own direction. Obsidian released an unfinished game with an unfinished story that vaguely resembled the first game. It is a stretch to even call TSL a sequel to K1.

So, how do you stitch 2 stories together that barely work off each other, with characters that are build by completely different writers, and stories that are full of holes and contradict each other at times?

You don't. It isn't feasible. You can claim it is, but Obsidian and Avellone killed a chance for a Bioware made K3. Bioware, Lucas Arts, and Obsidian's poor planning ruined a chance for a K3 done by Obsidian.

KOTOR 3 was not a good idea. It was not a feasible idea. It was in the trash by the merit it had conflicting ground to stand on.

But hey, give us a new character you say?

And who will it be this time? Which Mary Sue god will the writers throw at us next? What will be the cliff hanger this time? What sad, pathetic attempts will they make to mesh the previous games together? What level of amnesia will you have this time, and just how powerful -were- you before?

Screw that.

TSL left the story dead and bleeding in an alley way. Lucas Arts, in my opinion, should have never handed it over to Obsidian in the first place if they were just going to pull the plug on them early.

Bioware, now that the tattered remains of -their- story was handed back to them, saw that there was no saving he rotting remains and it was thus time to recycle them and send it into a new direction.

I have long assumed that some sort of time skip would have to take place for a K3. It would either have to be done before the first game, or way, way, way after TSL. Long enough that people forgot what happened at that time.

See, you're looking at this from a story angle. Why can't the story go on?

Problem is, you're not looking at this from a developers point of view. From a writers. The writers are the one that are paid to look, if not stare till their eyes bleed, at the flaws in the story and find ways to move past them. By just standing back and looking at the story, it seems like it should flow well to the next. But a developer has to take a magnifying glass to everything and it became quite obvious that there was no saving what they had been given.

Did it have to be an MMO? No. It could have been another single player.

But even if it was, you still had zero chance of getting your dream game. It still would have suffered from a skip, new character, new npcs, etc.

You would have hated it either way. You just seem to have particular disdain for this game because you have convinced yourself that it will address nothing while never playing the game yourself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by labyrinthian
Another observation: while non-mmo people understand how many people do like mmos, mmo people lack that awareness of the other side.
Pot, this is Kettle.

This thread has been a monument to the exact opposite of that statement.
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Old 01-30-2009, 06:10 AM   #296
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That is probably going to work with Mass Effect, because it is the same company, team, etc putting it together that will apparently work off of your last game's save game.

Why would it not work with KOTOR III? Because they were made by different companys and writers.

Obsidian did the second game, and Avellone did the second story. Problem? Avellone has his own writing style, and his own direction. Obsidian released an unfinished game with an unfinished story that vaguely resembled the first game. It is a stretch to even call TSL a sequel to K1.
I don't consider TSL a sequel at all - a separate game, yes, but not a sequel to what was on the whole twice as good as TSL.

It's also why I often think that it would have been better for Lucasarts to have made Expansion Packs (albeit larger than your average expansion) - then you could have used the same character, and continued the story.






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Old 01-30-2009, 06:21 PM   #297
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I'm also a single-player gamer, but likely would have switched to MMO for KOTOR III. I won't even try this because it kills any KOTOR III possibility.
You know what I hate the most about this upcoming TOR game? It isn't another Jedi Knight series game. It should have been that. It's absolutely preposterous that this game could be anything else. It also doesn't have the Corporate Sector Authority from the EU in it. What the hell is up with that? They're completely alienating their fanbase by not making a JK-series game with the CSA in it.

And motorcycles. I don't see a single hint that motorcycle races are anywhere in this game. It's just unbelievable that they could be so arrogant that they end up completely ignoring what so many motorcyclists out there might enjoy playing. Where is the conclusion to the JK series that we all wanted? Where are the motorcycles?

Why are there no motorcycles?!?!


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Old 01-31-2009, 06:13 PM   #298
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You know what I hate the most about this upcoming TOR game? It isn't another Jedi Knight series game. It should have been that. It's absolutely preposterous that this game could be anything else. It also doesn't have the Corporate Sector Authority from the EU in it. What the hell is up with that? They're completely alienating their fanbase by not making a JK-series game with the CSA in it.

And motorcycles. I don't see a single hint that motorcycle races are anywhere in this game. It's just unbelievable that they could be so arrogant that they end up completely ignoring what so many motorcyclists out there might enjoy playing. Where is the conclusion to the JK series that we all wanted? Where are the motorcycles?

Why are there no motorcycles?!?!
Well said.

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Old 02-04-2009, 09:05 PM   #299
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If they pioneered a new type of MMO, any argument for this being an innovative solution would hold water. But probability is 99.9% it's going to be a WoW clone with different images and names for things.
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Old 02-04-2009, 09:21 PM   #300
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If they pioneered a new type of MMO, any argument for this being an innovative solution would hold water. But probability is 99.9% it's going to be a WoW clone with different images and names for things.
You mean like the hundreds of single player RPGs, Shooters, racers, sports, etc games out there?

Of course it is going to be an MMO that resembles WoW. Like just Gears of War resembles Halo. How Mass Effect resembles KOTOR. How NFL 2007 looks exactly like NFL 2008.

WoW clone? The problem with this statement that is thrown around is that it can and will apply to any MMO. Why? Because WoW cut down to the bare basics, made a game out of those basics, and it worked! WoW is a very simple game. Very, very simple. It has so many fans and attention because it did simply correctly.

Being that they used the basics of the MMO building plans, every mmo before and after looks like WoW in the same way every FPS resembles Half-Life 1.

If you insist on comparing though, then at least call it what it really is:

A Guild Wars clone, just hopefully better this time.
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Old 02-04-2009, 09:24 PM   #301
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A Guild Wars clone, just hopefully better this time.
Jumping had better be a built in feature. >:|

Seriously though, I hope it's not a clone of anything, and it sounds like we'll be getting something pretty unique as far as MMOs go.


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Old 02-04-2009, 10:46 PM   #302
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The irony is that people are calling every MMO after WoW a WoW clone which itself was a clone of every MMO before it.

Quite frankly the insult is getting old. It's especially old considdering that even when there are things outside of what WoW does, it's still called a WoW clone. People call NGE SWG a WoW clone when there are many things that are not in WoW that are in the SWG. Crafting that's diverse and deep(pre-NGE holdover, but it's been updated to be even better in some aspects), the whole space game, Custom appearances(made even better with the addition of the appearance tab), in game voice(unless WoW did it first, which I hadn't heard of).

Every MMO that comes out gets labeled a WoW clone. The developer then has to show how it isn't. Even after they show it isn't just another WoW clone, people still call it a WoW clone until it gets released. After the release, it gets called a WoW clone because it has elements that are in WoW. Big shocker, OMG IT HAS GROUPING WoW clone. OMG It has instances, WoW clone. OMG It has PVP zones, WoW clone. WTF? WoW didn't invent 99% of what it is. It stole ideas from every other MMO out there. You could say that WoW is the clone.
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Old 02-05-2009, 07:13 PM   #303
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Why are there no motorcycles?!?!
It's in the cut content and will be restored by K1TSLTORRP.


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Old 02-09-2009, 07:03 PM   #304
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Oink, oink.

When Blizzard made WoW and was so successful, a bunch of greedy CEOs of game companies said "OINK! I've got to get me a piece of that." Then companies that had no right/purpose making MMOs starting turning their little wheels to pump out pieces of trash to try to "Take down WoW." And frankly, they can't. Most MMOs released now tend to be outshined by WoW. I have GUILDS of friends that have jumped from WoW to AoC, To WAR, BACK to WoW. I had friends that jumped from WoW to Silkroad to WAR to WoW. WoW will just release another expansion, and all its players will come crawling back to update their characters and gear.

This is GLs(Second) attempt to take a shot at that. He couldn't maintain the quality of his first MMO, so hes clearing the board and trying AGAIN. Instead of starting from scratch though, hes taking one of his best games and converting it. And hes calling in the RP dream-team to do it.

The "WoW Clone" comment, from my perspective, is just a company making an MMO for the profit of seeing how well Blizzard did. Not for the sake of making a good game. Which is what WoW is. There wasn't any "WoW" for Blizzard to contend with when they made that MMO, and that's why it was so good.

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Wow, this was necessary.

If you don't like it, then don't pay for it. Go ahead and stop posting in the TOR forum, if you really want to stick it to them.

_EW_
Wow, that was necessary.
This is a question thread. See the title?
"Is TOR as good as KOTOR III?"
My answer is No. You've seen most of my reasons.
If you don't like NO, then stop posting in ANY forum. Because its a divided world, and a lot of it has access to internet forums.


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Old 02-10-2009, 01:45 AM   #305
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This is GLs(Second) attempt to take a shot at that. He couldn't maintain the quality of his first MMO, so hes clearing the board and trying AGAIN. Instead of starting from scratch though, hes taking one of his best games and converting it. And hes calling in the RP dream-team to do it.
George Lucas doesn't actually make the game - I think he has relatively little say in it.

Quote:
The "WoW Clone" comment, from my perspective, is just a company making an MMO for the profit of seeing how well Blizzard did. Not for the sake of making a good game. Which is what WoW is. There wasn't any "WoW" for Blizzard to contend with when they made that MMO, and that's why it was so good.
So you're basically saying that no-one should ever rock the boat because all mighty Blizzard have WoW?







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Old 02-11-2009, 09:38 PM   #306
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This is GLs(Second) attempt to take a shot at that. He couldn't maintain the quality of his first MMO, so hes clearing the board and trying AGAIN. Instead of starting from scratch though, hes taking one of his best games and converting it. And hes calling in the RP dream-team to do it.
Um... SWG was out BEFORE WoW.

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The "WoW Clone" comment, from my perspective, is just a company making an MMO for the profit of seeing how well Blizzard did. Not for the sake of making a good game. Which is what WoW is. There wasn't any "WoW" for Blizzard to contend with when they made that MMO, and that's why it was so good.
And Bioware are attempting to make a good game. Yet somehow they are automatically called a WoW Clone. Technically WoW was supposed to be competition to Everquest... It succeeded, and dramatically so.
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Old 02-13-2009, 09:51 AM   #307
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If it can tell me what happend to Revan,Bastila,Exile then it's no matter being an MMO.
We want KOTOR3 because of the unfinished ending.So,sastify that need and everything will be alrigtht.
I want KOTOR3 too,much more than TOR-MMO.
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Old 02-14-2009, 07:20 AM   #308
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How much I love TOR, I hope someday there will be a KOTOR 3!
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Old 02-15-2009, 05:44 PM   #309
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If it can tell me what happend to Revan,Bastila,Exile then it's no matter being an MMO.
We want KOTOR3 because of the unfinished ending.So,sastify that need and everything will be alrigtht.
I want KOTOR3 too,much more than TOR-MMO.
Great words. Problem with 300 years later... not really likely to find out what happened as everyone had faded into the mists of SW history. I could say more for the plot behind TSL, but the cliffhanger was excellent in my mind. It was waiting for the conclusion that made it worthwhile. Now that they just decided to throw it all away and leave it at "SOMEHOW everything just miraculously turned for the better and now 300 years later..."

SP five years after TSL... Right on! MMO five years after TSL... Good.
SP game 300 years later... Never! MMO 300 years later... Utter ineptitude!
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Old 02-15-2009, 07:25 PM   #310
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Great words. Problem with 300 years later... not really likely to find out what happened as everyone had faded into the mists of SW history. I could say more for the plot behind TSL, but the cliffhanger was excellent in my mind. It was waiting for the conclusion that made it worthwhile. Now that they just decided to throw it all away and leave it at "SOMEHOW everything just miraculously turned for the better and now 300 years later..."

SP five years after TSL... Right on! MMO five years after TSL... Good.
SP game 300 years later... Never! MMO 300 years later... Utter ineptitude!
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Old 02-15-2009, 08:24 PM   #311
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SP five years after TSL... Right on! MMO five years after TSL... Good.
SP game 300 years later... Never! MMO 300 years later... Utter ineptitude!
Bawwwwww.

How can you complain without playing it? I mean, if you don't have an inherent hatred for MMOs, then you should probably use a wait-and-see approach.

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Old 02-15-2009, 11:54 PM   #312
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See new poll option: There's absolutely no way to know until TOR actually comes out. Any answer other than that is pure speculation.


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Old 02-16-2009, 12:12 AM   #313
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Bawwwwww.

How can you complain without playing it? I mean, if you don't have an inherent hatred for MMOs, then you should probably use a wait-and-see approach.

_EW_
Problem with wait and see is that once something has been carved in stone, there's no going back. If everyone knew TSL was going to bomb because of Obsidian, would everyone just cheer them on? I think people would have expressed discontent and Lucasarts might have decided that they didn't want TSL to trash the KOTOR franchise. I'm just complaining, but don't really expect anything to come of this.

Of course, all this has been said time and time again that I should just start posting web links to all my previous posts. If they're just going to leave TSL in the trash, then they should do so. Instead, they toss virtually everything of KOTOR out of existence. If TSL had an ending w/out a cliffhanger, then I would understand why they would move to a different era. If TSL had taken place a hundred years after Revan, and was a self-contained story with a resolution... by all means, make TOR 300 years later!
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Old 02-16-2009, 05:33 AM   #314
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Instead, they toss virtually everything of KOTOR out of existence.
Umm, no, they didn't. And even if they had made a single-player, 5 years after TSL game, you probably would have complained because the plot didn't meet with your expectations. In fact, most people probably would.

Lucas Arts probably realised this too - that there was no way to create a proper sequel to the half-finished, sorry excuse of a game that is TSL, so they decided to jump forward 300 years, with a relatively clean slate.

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If TSL had an ending w/out a cliffhanger, then I would understand why they would move to a different era.
What Cliffhanger? The two plots aren't even connected. The only thing that connects the two games is that they decided to create some semblance of a connection by cramming the word 'Revan' into every sentence.






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Old 02-16-2009, 06:31 AM   #315
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Is tOR as Good as KotOR III? as jae pointed out we dont know yet, but one thing that is getting clearer is the style.
Cliche story or not, Tales of the Jedi and later KotOR, created an amazing detailed universe in the distant past of Star Wars, romantic awe inspiring wars, locales, characters, races and adventures, Clothing and weaponry... With this trying to be a WOW killer, mass market fodder cash cow, dont be surprised if all the little nuances and style which made Tales of the Jedi and the various KotOR stuff awesome, slowly morph into "Clone Wars: The Old Republic" the Jedi will probably end up with brown robes in the end, the ships will look like clone wars era ships and the Sith army will look like Stormtroopers.

So what I'm saying is, this game will no doubt be good, but will the reasons that the old Republic era is by far my favorite era disappear now the franchise is being geared towards non SW fans and the mass market too?


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Old 02-16-2009, 08:07 AM   #316
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So what I'm saying is, this game will no doubt be good, but will the reasons that the old Republic era is by far my favorite era disappear now the franchise is being geared towards non SW fans and the mass market too?
A very good point. Already we are seeing the influences you point out, the Stormtrooper-esque Sith and Imperial-emblem inspired Sith Crest, not to mention the elusive 'Emperor', all of which I find slightly unappealing.

I still hope that BioWare will be able to bring a fair amount of originality and manage, somehow, to retain some of KotOR's 'historic' atmosphere.

I will very likely give the game a chance, funds and connection speed permitting, but the first time a hero named Skywalker pops up, I'm switching it off.



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Old 02-16-2009, 03:50 PM   #317
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See new poll option: There's absolutely no way to know until TOR actually comes out. Any answer other than that is pure speculation.
Aw jeez, now I wanna change my answer!
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Old 02-17-2009, 09:38 AM   #318
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All that we all can hope for is that TOR will be closer to KOTOR as far being a quality game, and not closer to SWG.

Keep all your fingers crossed!


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Old 02-17-2009, 10:18 AM   #319
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Lucas Arts probably realised this too - that there was no way to create a proper sequel to the half-finished, sorry excuse of a game that is TSL, so they decided to jump forward 300 years, with a relatively clean slate.

What Cliffhanger? The two plots aren't even connected. The only thing that connects the two games is that they decided to create some semblance of a connection by cramming the word 'Revan' into every sentence.
Why don't you play the game before making criticisms.

TSL was half-finished, but the game's ending was not meant to be self-contained like the original. The cliffhanger... the True Sith Trayus brought to the player's attention... the true threat the Council spoke of in the original game... does any of that register? Imagine if Episode III ended there and the sequel took place after all the characters have already died. That would be a VERY anti-climatic ending. The Sith Lord's ending is supposed to lead to the next installment.

Actually, Lucasarts could have made a proper conclusion; they took the easy way out and started from scratch.
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Old 02-17-2009, 11:08 AM   #320
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May be they are following this MMO to get enough money to make KOTOR 3.
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