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Old 01-16-2009, 06:36 AM   #1
Wepopu
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Question Plot doesnt make sense

the story is good but it doesnt make sense when considering other star wars story arcs. In the force unleashed Lord Vader turns on starkiller twice in sideing with the Emperor. In the book "Rise of Darth Vader" Lord Vader talks of nothing more than finding someone who he can train to help take down his master and he does alot of this planning on the wookiee homeworld. Then in "Empire strikes back" he tries to get his son to help him overthrow the Emperor. The force unleashed is the only plot where the Vader shows to be this attached to the Emperor then considering other storylines where Vader like a true sith plot against his master. Force unleashed makes Vader seem less sith like and more like a lost child. There is no good reason why Vader shouldnt have use starkiller to help him overthrow the Emperor then you think how starkiller was able to defeat Vader then right after that defeat the Emperor. Starkiller was the one Vader was looking for when he turned to the dark side. In rise of "Darth Vader" Lord Vader says that he would have killed his master shortly after he defeated Obi-wan. Vader unyeilding love for his master in the force unleashed and the fact he has starkiller on his side makes no sense at all when consider that Vader threw away his dream for the past 20 years!
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Old 01-16-2009, 12:29 PM   #2
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First of all, bear in mind that TFU is one big retcon, meaning that a lot of what was considered established canon was revisited on the game.

Besides, Vader is a Sith and it's their way to kill their masters when they realise they're stronger than the ones who teached them. But we all know the weakness Vader had against lightning, which kept him from challenging the Emperor on a one-on-one fight. Thus the need of a helping hand and therefore showing that Vader has no love for Sidious.

I believe Vader didn't actully thought that Starkiller would be able to do the task he was originally bred for. Just take a look at the endings anyway.
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Either he yields to the Emperor or he's killed by him.


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Old 01-16-2009, 01:49 PM   #3
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That sounds right. It makes sense that if Vader would seek to overthrow the Emperor with Luke Skywalker, then surly he would have used Starkiller earlier on.

When Starkiller said "You never planned to destroy the Emperor."
Vader said "Not with you."

This might have meant that Vader intended to use Starkiller to destroy the rebellious senators before he took command from Palpatine and use someone else... of course, he did not even know about Luke yet, so that doesn't make much sense.

I like the double-crossing nature of the Sith, but it's flawed in this regard.
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Old 01-16-2009, 03:42 PM   #4
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Actually the whole story in TFU makes total sense. Here's why:

Vaderís intention to use Starkiller to overthrow the Emperor was Vaderís original plan. However, Vaderís fear of his master is what controlled him. Vader was a shell of his former self and he knows this. Vader wanted to be absolutely sure that he could beat the Emperor before attempting it as he knew that I couldnít afford to fail because it would lead to his death on the spot.

Iím betting that even though Vader told Starkiller that he was to leave no witnesses, somehow someone witness his existence and was not discovered by Starkiller, or he would have been killed on the spot. This witness reported to the Emperor, and from there the Emperor investigated who this mystery guy was. Through his spies, he discovers that it was a secret apprentice of Vader. The Emperor saw an opportunity with this and that is he could use this boy to replace Vader.

The Emperor probably figures out that this guy is loyal to Vader just like Maul was to him. So he needed a plan create a division between them so Starkillerís loyalty to Vader would be shaken. Could you imagine the fear that went through Vader when the Emperor confronted him about his secret apprentice and the surprise that went through Vaderís mind that the Emperor said there could be some use for him to help the Empire?

That is when having Vader injure him would do the trick. When Starkiller woke up and realized he was still alive, he was mad at Vader for what he did to him. In the meantime, the Emperor needed his enemies identified and eliminated. Though I donít think the Emperor intended to find all of his enemies, just enough to make use out of Starkiller to help create division between him and Vader so that he would have a chance to turn him to the Emperorís side.

I still think Vader still had intention to use Starkiller to destroy the Emperor, but when he saw that he had some good in him (that is when he confronted him about the conflict he had with his strong feelings about his friends), he decided that it was time to move on and find a new apprentice to overthrow the Emperor. This is why he told Starkiller that he didnít intend to overthrow the Emperor with him, but it was implied he still intended to overthrow the Emperor with someone else because Vader realized at that point he had not truly fallen to the dark side the way he needed him to be to rule the galaxy together.

The Emperor meantime wanted to use Starkiller. So when Starkiller made his way through the Death Star, the Emperor decided to use this moment to have Starkiller give into his hate for Vader to his advantage. If Starkiller defeats Vader, he would give him the opportunity to join him and replace Vader at his side. So when that happened, and with the Emperor sensing his hate for Vader, this was the moment to either have him join the Emperor, or destroy him just like what happened with Luke in Return of the Jedi.

When you look at it this way, the whole story makes total sense to why things happened the way it did. Does this clear up any confusion people may have?


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Old 01-16-2009, 08:10 PM   #5
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Though I donít think the Emperor intended to find all of his enemies, just enough to make use out of Starkiller to help create division between him and Vader so that he would have a chance to turn him to the Emperorís side.
I think Palpatine primarily wanted to find his most prominent enemies from the Senate (and elsewhere, after probing their brains for the names of other potential threats), and that Galen becoming his apprentice was just a potential bonus on the side.

Galen may have had impressive potential, but practically speaking, Palpatine didn't really need an apprentice that was much more powerful than Vader. Throughout the Jedi Purge, Vader showed himself more than capable of defeating Jedi, and even before the Purge was over, the Jedi Order posed virtually no threat to the Empire. Not only that, but in the years between the rise of the Empire and the Battle of Endor, Palpatine had a number of powerful Dark Jedi in his service (such as Jerec and his minions, his Hand Cronal, Kadann and the Prophets of the Dark Side, etcetera), but he never replaced Vader with any of them. Chances are, Palpatine probably didn't really care who won the fight between Galen and Vader, so long as Galen was either killed or forced into submission, especially since neither outcomes would be a difficult task (indeed, both endings make it very clear that Palpatine was more than capable of killing Galen with relative ease).


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Old 01-16-2009, 09:00 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by TKA-001 View Post
I think Palpatine primarily wanted to find his most prominent enemies from the Senate (and elsewhere, after probing their brains for the names of other potential threats), and that Galen becoming his apprentice was just a potential bonus on the side.
That's probably true.

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Originally Posted by TKA-001 View Post
Galen may have had impressive potential, but practically speaking, Palpatine didn't really need an apprentice that was much more powerful than Vader. Throughout the Jedi Purge, Vader showed himself more than capable of defeating Jedi, and even before the Purge was over, the Jedi Order posed virtually no threat to the Empire. Not only that, but in the years between the rise of the Empire and the Battle of Endor, Palpatine had a number of powerful Dark Jedi in his service (such as Jerec and his minions, his Hand Cronal, Kadann and the Prophets of the Dark Side, etcetera), but he never replaced Vader with any of them. Chances are, Palpatine probably didn't really care who won the fight between Galen and Vader, so long as Galen was either killed or forced into submission, especially since neither outcomes would be a difficult task (indeed, both endings make it very clear that Palpatine was more than capable of killing Galen with relative ease).
That's where I disagree with you.

Palpatine wanted a stronger apprentice. I wish I could find that quote by Lucas (I think it's on my old computer), but what he said was he wanted Luke to replace Vader since Luke was stronger. Palpatine was disappointed in what happened to Vader as he wanted him to be a very strong Sith Lord to keep the order strong. It was a tradition.


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Old 01-16-2009, 09:59 PM   #7
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I think that Vader knew Galen was more powerful than he and intended to use him to destroy the Emperor... and then kill his secret apprentice after that.

In regards to post #4: Vader clearly was not afraid or surprised at the Emperor finding Galen. Had he betrayed his master, Vader SHOULD have been dead. Palpatine said 'now you will kill him' Shouldn't he have killed Vader then and there? Of course. The only reason why he didn't was because they were acting to make Galen's future missions against the Empire more convincing. (He became Palpatine's greatest spy because he didn't even know what his true mission was)

At the end, the Emperor said that he was meant to root out the Rebels. Vader implied that was what Palpatine intended all along. Vader was a pathetic Sith as he became nothing more than the Emperor's loyal tarrier.
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Old 01-16-2009, 11:14 PM   #8
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The Emperor doesnt care about the sith order or its notions. In rise of "Darth Vader" the emporer states he only cares about power and when he is able to cheat death that he doesnt need an someone like Vader to train because he will have all the power he needs. the Emperor after "Return of the Jedi" has numerous dark jedi doing his bidding thus breaking the rule of two that got him into power. Now Vader knows that his master has a habit of replacing his second in commands when something stronger comes around and knowing he is not is full self it would only make sense if vader used starkiller to overthrow his master because how long does he plan on living like that? Vader purge himself of all fear and weakness other than the having no real limbs cant be shocked weakness shortly after "Revenge of the Sith". Because he fully embrace the dark side and removed his mental blocks is what made he the scary powerful sith lord of the Empire. To say that he was scared of the Emperor makes as much sense atleast to me as the plot for the force unleashed.
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Old 01-17-2009, 10:03 AM   #9
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Palpatine was disappointed in what happened to Vader as he wanted him to be a very strong Sith Lord to keep the order strong. It was a tradition.
It may have been a tradition, but the tradition wasn't a practical necessity. If it was, Palpatine would have replaced Vader with one of his other (more potentially powerful) Dark Jedi before he knew about Luke's existence.


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Old 01-17-2009, 02:06 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by TKA-001 View Post
It may have been a tradition, but the tradition wasn't a practical necessity. If it was, Palpatine would have replaced Vader with one of his other (more potentially powerful) Dark Jedi before he knew about Luke's existence.
I always find it funny when someone tries to tell you how they think it is and forget that they're throwing out all reason that George Lucas wrote Star Wars (and co-wrote the TFU) and what he says is gospel about his franchise.


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Old 01-17-2009, 05:55 PM   #11
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The plot makes perfect sense to me!
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Old 01-17-2009, 07:54 PM   #12
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I always find it funny when someone tries to tell you how they think it is and forget that they're throwing out all reason that George Lucas wrote Star Wars (and co-wrote the TFU) and what he says is gospel about his franchise.
Don't bother to challenge my argument if you're not even going to attempt to produce any actual evidence against it. I made a conclusion based on previously established canon information. What information is there in the canon which disproves or conflicts with my conclusion? Instead of producing any, you decided that because my conclusion is supposedly irreconcilable with Lucas' vision of Star Wars, even though all of the information which I used to form my conclusion is drawn from 100% Lucas-approved EU material and Lucas has never said anything (relevant to this discussion) on the topic.


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Old 01-17-2009, 11:50 PM   #13
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Don't bother to challenge my argument if you're not even going to attempt to produce any actual evidence against it.
I already told you. My evidence is practically gone. I never bothered to transfer it once RotS came out since my debates about what's going to happen in the movies is over. I know I'm right and I don't need to prove myself to you. So go along sonny and believe what you want to believe because I really don't care what you believe. Opinions don't change facts so because I'm not going to spend two to three hours finding what you supposedly want to see isn't going to change what it really is.


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even though all of the information which I used to form my conclusion is drawn from 100% Lucas-approved EU material and Lucas has never said anything (relevant to this discussion) on the topic.
I'm laughing at this because you missed the memo where Lucas doesn't always go along with what he approves for those EU writers. There is so many contradicting plots in the EU books versus what Lucas has done in his movies and even the recent Clone Wars series that it's laughable that you would try to throw that one by me and think it was a good point you made. If you ask for proof for the point I'm making how Lucas doesn't follow his approval for many EU plots, I'm going fall out of my chair laughing because it's something you should already know without me telling you.

Past experience has taught me that even if I had provided proof, you still probably would have goneall lawyer on me and looked for a loop hole to try to make sound like Lucas agrees with you (your EU approval point you tried to make to me has given me the reason to believe this about you), so what's the point for me to find my old computer in the storage unit, hook it up, search for the document with his quote and post it? Are you really worth that much trouble? Well, I don't think you nor is it important to me to try to convince you to change your mind because what you think really isn't that important to me. All you would be is bitter if I had posted it because you would have been proven wrong in public and I don't think your ego would handle that well.

Anyway, believe what you want to believe because you have already made up your mind. You pretty much reminded me why debates like this are utterly pointless. Why did I even bother again?


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Old 01-21-2009, 10:15 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shem
Palpatine wanted a stronger apprentice. I wish I could find that quote by Lucas (I think it's on my old computer), but what he said was he wanted Luke to replace Vader since Luke was stronger. Palpatine was disappointed in what happened to Vader as he wanted him to be a very strong Sith Lord to keep the order strong. It was a tradition.
Yes, I think that has been long established both by comments from Lucas and Palpatine's actions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth_Yuthura
I think that Vader knew Galen was more powerful than he and intended to use him to destroy the Emperor... and then kill his secret apprentice after that.
What is this based on? I haven't completed the game

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wepopu
the Emperor after "Return of the Jedi" has numerous dark jedi doing his bidding thus breaking the rule of two that got him into power.
But they weren't Sith, thus the rule was not broken. The Sith do this throughout history, as we see during the Clone Wars as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TKA-001
It may have been a tradition, but the tradition wasn't a practical necessity. If it was, Palpatine would have replaced Vader with one of his other (more potentially powerful) Dark Jedi before he knew about Luke's existence.
From what we have seen so far there wasn't anyone more powerful than Vader, especially potentially. We know that Palpatine was the most powerful Sith of all time, from the NEC and RotS novel. We also know from Lucas and RotS that Anakin had the unrealized potential to be twice as powerful as Palpatine but in the end was only 80% as powerful due to his injuries. However, Palpatine believed that the power of the Sith was not in their physical form, and that Vader could still reach his potential. But 20 years later he had come to realize that that was not going to happen. We also know from the novelizations that Luke also had huge potential, and Palpatine wanted to replace "damaged goods" Vader with undamaged Luke.

But all that being said, these sorts of things are why I have essentially become a movie purist, at least for the film eras. There are just too many hoops to jump through to get things to line up, and the fact that to the creator the films and the UE are essentially different universes.

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Old 01-21-2009, 11:11 AM   #15
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No, Shem is correct:

Quote:
"However, after all of his limbs were severed and he was extremely burned on Mustafar he lost much of his Force potential. As Darth Vader, Anakin was believed to have had roughly 80% of the strength of the Emperor. Had he sustained none of his injuries on Mustafar he would have been twice as powerful."
―George Lucas[src]
So. From (compared to the Emperor) 200% down to 80%. And an apprentice that wouldn't be stronger then he was. An apprentice that couldn't use the traditional Force Lightning. Not a worthy apprentice making the Sith stronger.

Quote:
George Lucas has stated that Luke has the same Force potential as his father, which is why both Darth Vader and the Emperor were willing to turn on each other to gain Luke as their apprentice. Luke is said to represent Anakin's full potential, if Anakin had lived to achieve it rather than suffer the horrible fate that made him more machine than man. Lucas further measures that Luke's Force potential was twice as powerful as Emperor Palpatine.
Replace the cyborg with someone who still has the potential to reach 200% instead of the 'lowsy' 80%.

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Old 01-21-2009, 04:30 PM   #16
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As far as I'm concerned the force unleashed story never took place, no matter what lucas sais. The stuff that man is doing to star wars is more than stupid. Vader was strong with the force. And he was no fool. He would not train annyone more powerful than himself. He would become stronger than the emperor with time and age. Never leave (or in this case kill) your master before you learn all you can from him.
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Old 01-21-2009, 07:57 PM   #17
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As far as I'm concerned the force unleashed story never took place, no matter what lucas sais. The stuff that man is doing to star wars is more than stupid.
So what are you doing here exactly? Let me give you some advice. You really shouldn't be here if you feel that way because what you're doing here is saying things that will possibly bait people to make a comeback with a heated response leading to a possible heated debate. In my personal opinion statements like that are troll like statements which have no place here (bashing TFU in a TFU forum isn't cool), but that's me.


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Vader was strong with the force. And he was no fool. He would not train annyone more powerful than himself.
I hate to burst your bubble, but Darth Sidious was smarter than Vader. If you don't believe it, just remember who manipulated who to the dark side! Palpatine had Anakin eating out of his hand.

Oh, and Darth Sidious who is smarter took on Anakin as his apprentice with the knowlege that he would become more power than him, or so he assumed and that assumption would have happened if Anakin didn't receive those injuries on Mustafar.

Anakin had a lot of talent and skill, but his logical skills were clouded by his strong emotions. That in itself takes away a lot of intelligence. So in a nutshell you created an opinion that you decided was fact from your own point of view.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Sidious to Yoda in RotS
"You will not stop me. Darth Vader will become more power than either of us."


Quote:
Originally Posted by Prime View Post
But all that being said, these sorts of things are why I have essentially become a movie purist, at least for the film eras. There are just too many hoops to jump through to get things to line up, and the fact that to the creator the films and the UE are essentially different universes.
You and I are on the same boat. Like with video games for example, I never play with the yellow, orange, etc, colored lightsabers 97% of the time. I usually stick with blue, green, and red as I feel the other color shouldn't be in there for consistency reasons.

I can except a story like TFU since it is very consistent with how Star Wars works if you throw out the yellow, orange, and gold lightsaber colors. Another story I can accept easily with canon is the book, Shadows of the Empire.


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Old 01-21-2009, 08:30 PM   #18
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I'm really tired of people saying that Sidious and Vader (and also Tyranus) training other Dark Jedi breaks the Rule of Two. Is it really that hard to figure out? They're not Sith! You don't even need to read anything in order to figure this out. The prequels illustrate to us quite clearly that a Sith is not simply a Jedi who has fallen to the dark side but one who has pledged his life to an organized philosophy, as can best be seen in with Anakin's ordination at the feet of Palpatine in Revenge of the Sith. Why are people still bringing this up these days? The answer comes from a combination of viewing the prequels and common sense.

Sorry about that. Though only one comment has been made on the subject in this thread so far, this is something that has always irritated me. You'd think it would be crystal clear to everyone by now.



Anyway, I pretty much agree one hundred percent with Shem here. However, here is my reservation about the story: the dark side ending. Yes, I know it isn't canon, but isn't Darth Vader being killed while still allied with the Sith and the dark side impossible since prophecy holds his future set in stone? He is destined to destroy the Sith and bring balance to the Force and is the only one who is able to do so, since it is stated in the prophecy of the Chosen One, so is it not impossible for Darth Vader to be killed if you think about it? He has to be redeemed and fulfill the prophecy first, and then he can die. I know it sounds cheap as hell, but really, this man with such a destiny cannot possibly die any other way. If that were not the case, the Sith would have never been defeated and the Force would have been doomed to remain unbalanced for all eternity.

Unless, of course, the "future" is not absolute. Perhaps the prophecy of the Chosen One is only one possible future (and the only hopeful one, really), and it is up to those who still wish to see the light triumph over the dark - Yoda, Obi-Wan and Luke - to ensure that it comes to fulfillment? That sounds better, really.


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Old 01-22-2009, 08:13 AM   #19
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So what are you doing here exactly? Let me give you some advice. You really shouldn't be here if you feel that way because what you're doing here is saying things that will possibly bait people to make a comeback with a heated response leading to a possible heated debate. In my personal opinion statements like that are troll like statements which have no place here (bashing TFU in a TFU forum isn't cool), but that's me.
It's not about taste but logic. Besides annone (!) who knows a bit about movie history will agree that the new star wars stuff is just plain c$@p compared to the originals. With of the 6 (7?) movies will be known for the next 30 years? Besides I'm not bashing the game I'm just saying that It's story was not as good as it was said it would be.

Why is it you belive that it's wrong to state an opinion about a game on the games forum?
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Old 01-23-2009, 12:08 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Zwier Zak View Post
It's not about taste but logic. Besides annone (!) who knows a bit about movie history will agree that the new star wars stuff is just plain c$@p compared to the originals.
I disagree. I've been a Star Wars movie buff ever since I had the ability remember what I did yesterday. I remember going to the original movies in the theater and I even remember going to ESB and ROTJ when they first came out in '80 and '83. In fact, I went to opening night on both of those movies. I not only know the history, I lived it. I actually like the Prequels better.


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Besides I'm not bashing the game I'm just saying that It's story was not as good as it was said it would be.
That's not what you said. What you said is:

"As far as I'm concerned the force unleashed story never took place, no matter what lucas sais. The stuff that man is doing to star wars is more than stupid."

You bashed TFU and not just the fact you based it, you did it in a TFU forum. I'll give you an example of what you said is not cool when I address you next statement.

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Why is it you belive that it's wrong to state an opinion about a game on the games forum?
There is nothing wrong with having an opinion. But there are ethics on when or where to state those opinions. What if I didn't like Polish people and then I decided to visit a forum that is just for fellow Polish people and created a topic about how I felt that Polish people sucked? Hey, I'm just expressing my opinion, right? But what happens is you tick a lot of people off who are visiting there because they're Polish people and that is a place for them to chat. So basically I just baited a potential flame war.

Does that make it clear that there is a time and place where and when you should ever express an opinion? That is when you use ethics to pick your spots. There are games out there that I don't like and you would never see me go to a forum dedicated to that game to say how much I think it sucked even though I don't like the game and that is my opinion. It's useless chatter. My advice is to stay away from places you don't like, but unfortunately some people love to visit places decided to things they don't like and have no trouble saying it. To me, those are troublemakers. The site I manage (KotorFiles), I won't allow trolls like that on my site because it's totally stupid for them to be there in the first place.


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Old 01-23-2009, 12:24 AM   #21
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Yeah the plot for TFU always did seem a little jumbled to me; secret apprentice going here & there, sparing so & so and killing this & that.


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Old 01-23-2009, 07:52 AM   #22
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Yeah the plot for TFU always did seem a little jumbled to me; secret apprentice going here & there, sparing so & so and killing this & that.
*Possible Spoilers Ahead*

The only times I remember Starkiller sparing anything (that wasn't just an enemy you missed...) were the encounters with Maris Brood and Sidious.

For the first, it was necessary as he had already started down the path of a Jedi. Actually, that explains the second, too. He couldn't strike down a defeated enemy, one that had surrendered.

Also, Palpatine was leading him on, in much the same way he would attempt to draw Skywalker to the dark in ROTJ. Had he killed a (seemingly) defenceless opponent, it would have been a big step to the dark side.

On killing, he *is* Vader's assassin early on. His very purpose is to eliminate the last of the Jedi in preparation for taking on the Emperor. Though it pained me to kill the stormies (), I thought the reason was pretty good - Vader couldn't afford the Emperor 'finding out' about him. Though, as the Emperor already knew, this was probably more a thetric to convince Starkiller, a test of loyalty (how ready was he to kill servants of the Empire), or a method of deepening his darkside link.

On the whole topic, I thought the plot as a whole was one of the better ones - I hadn't read anything on the storyline beforehand, so the turn halfway through, Vader's betrayal and the Rebellion's formation, made the story very interesting indeed. Never did there seem to be any confusion - it all seemed quite well knit together.


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Old 01-23-2009, 10:15 AM   #23
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There is nothing wrong with having an opinion. But there are ethics on when or where to state those opinions. What if I didn't like Polish people and then I decided to visit a forum that is just for fellow Polish people and created a topic about how I felt that Polish people sucked? Hey, I'm just expressing my opinion, right? But what happens is you tick a lot of people off who are visiting there because they're Polish people and that is a place for them to chat. So basically I just baited a potential flame war.
No becouse we are not talking about people. We are talking about a product. A product for with I paid with my money. A game forum is a place where people say what they like or dislike about a surtain game. If you don't know that than you should never run a website about a game (no ofence).

Also I did not bash the game. I said I didn't like the story. I didn't say a word about it's gameplay, level design or an overall score.
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Old 01-23-2009, 11:05 AM   #24
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No, but it's the way you say it

Example, you can say:
"I want to KILL Obama and hate the fool."
Or say:
"I don't think he will be a good president because -insert arguments-"

You basically did the first, hating it without argumentation.
However, I do feel you have a point

If you look at a Kotor or Jedi Knight, the plot has (imo) a bit too much 'little' twists, where Kotor and JK mostly have 1 or 2 MAJOR ones.
I simply like the game for it's 'feel.' You have the old Jedi Master, young hero, love, humorous droid. It has all the good parts.

You can not however, claim it wasn't George Lucas' vision. He actually wanted this. Spared Shaak Ti in the Third movie and is currently planning life-action tv series which take place in between episode 3 and 4. And the actor playing the Apprentice has already stated he'd like to be a part of it.

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Old 01-23-2009, 02:39 PM   #25
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SOPILER WARNING

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No, but it's the way you say it

Example, you can say:
"I want to KILL Obama and hate the fool."
Or say:
"I don't think he will be a good president because -insert arguments-"
I gotta give it to ya there. Sorry about that.

When I first saw TOT I was so impresed with the characters in these movies. Vader was one of the best bad guys in movie history, the Emperor was just EVIL. Now what GL and LA are doing to these heroes is just wrong. First Vader trains some kid who he knows will become stronger than him. Why? To defeat the Emperor? To use him to destroy the Emperors foes? None of these makes much sence. If he would use starkiller to kill his master he would just trade one strong enemy for an even stronger enemy. I would not suspect him to be that stupid. If he whanted to find the emperors foes why send him on those jedi killing quests? Anny jelly with a brain would send him to form the alliance before killing the jedi. Why? The risk of his allies finding out about his past would be much smaller. The two sith just look like real amateurs in this game. First they train a kid who could become stronger than them and eventualy kill them and then they send him on a job anny good spy could do.

Why would master Kota help Starkiller? Witch good general would risk helping someone who tried to kill him? Yeah ok he could feel some things trough te force but still becouse of Kotas actions ALL of the Emperors foes could have been killed. That is not how a good leader acts.

Plot twists? Where? When? It was pretty much clear from the start that Vader would betrey him.

Love story? Starkiller and Juno talk for like 5 seconds in these cutsenes. I've taken baths deeper than their relationship and I saw moore love between a toaster and a coffee pot.

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You can not however, claim it wasn't George Lucas' vision. He actually wanted this. Spared Shaak Ti in the Third movie and is currently planning life-action tv series which take place in between episode 3 and 4. And the actor playing the Apprentice has already stated he'd like to be a part of it.
Don't get this the wrong way but George... he just lost it at some point. All of his productions since TPM were down hill for me. And the actor? Yeah If I had a chance to play in a live action tv series with will bring big profit and popularity I'd go for it too. There are millions of actors interested in being a part of it... but that does not make it good.


Sorry bout my spelling ;/
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Old 01-23-2009, 02:48 PM   #26
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Agreed, the quality isn't as good as the old movies. But maybe the series will be more like the old trilogy. Since it's not about Jedi (they will only have cameo's) I have good hopes.
But again, I agree. Star Wars is at its best when George isn't directing. And he won't be directing the seriesu

And I agree on the plot twists. The movie and EU material (Kotor etc) were stronger and more logical.

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Old 01-24-2009, 04:12 AM   #27
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Anyway, I pretty much agree one hundred percent with Shem here. However, here is my reservation about the story: the dark side ending. Yes, I know it isn't canon, but isn't Darth Vader being killed while still allied with the Sith and the dark side impossible since prophecy holds his future set in stone? He is destined to destroy the Sith and bring balance to the Force and is the only one who is able to do so, since it is stated in the prophecy of the Chosen One, so is it not impossible for Darth Vader to be killed if you think about it? He has to be redeemed and fulfill the prophecy first, and then he can die. I know it sounds cheap as hell, but really, this man with such a destiny cannot possibly die any other way. If that were not the case, the Sith would have never been defeated and the Force would have been doomed to remain unbalanced for all eternity.
Yeah but you could just as well say he can't die becouse you know he lives to star in the movies :P
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Old 01-24-2009, 03:20 PM   #28
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Yes, but you're missing the point.


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YOURS VERY SLOW ! PLS NEW PROGRESSS PLS NEW UPDATES PLS DARK FORCES FİNAL VERSİON İ CAN WAİTİNG KOTF PART 1 RELEASED 5 YEAR AND İTS 1 MAN ( OSMAN GUNYAZ DEVELOPERS ) BUT YOURS VERY PEOPLE İ CANT WAİTİNG 5 YEARS
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Old 01-24-2009, 03:31 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Zwier Zak View Post
Love story? Starkiller and Juno talk for like 5 seconds in these cutsenes. I've taken baths deeper than their relationship and I saw moore love between a toaster and a coffee pot.
I'm with you here. The love sub-plot feels forced. It's like sex scene on movies that are totally uncalled for. They're simply there because every movie of the kind has to have one.


Inspiration

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Old 01-24-2009, 03:36 PM   #30
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Well, the romantic tension is a lot more pronounced in the novel. Unfortunately, it was not possible to explore all of this given the game's length and how the story is designed, so they were sort of forced to abbreviate it.


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YOURS VERY SLOW ! PLS NEW PROGRESSS PLS NEW UPDATES PLS DARK FORCES FİNAL VERSİON İ CAN WAİTİNG KOTF PART 1 RELEASED 5 YEAR AND İTS 1 MAN ( OSMAN GUNYAZ DEVELOPERS ) BUT YOURS VERY PEOPLE İ CANT WAİTİNG 5 YEARS
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Old 01-24-2009, 03:39 PM   #31
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They could of just made the game longer as it was a little too short....
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Old 01-24-2009, 06:17 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Zerimar Nyliram View Post
Well, the romantic tension is a lot more pronounced in the novel. Unfortunately, it was not possible to explore all of this given the game's length and how the story is designed, so they were sort of forced to abbreviate it.
'Abbreviated' is a fair term for the entire game. It did seem a little rushed - this is set over, what, a year? Yet it is only a handful of misions. I can understand why some plot points may seem a little odd when it is so compressed. I still think the developer should have allowed us to play through the second search for Kota, though - it may have improved the sense of Starkiller's distancing himself from the Empire and embracing the Jedi.


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Old 01-25-2009, 01:54 AM   #33
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No becouse we are not talking about people. We are talking about a product.
I was giving you a for instance in hopes you could relate to what I was trying to tell you. Obviously you're not ready to understand yet and I can't make you see it. Most unfortunate.

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A product for with I paid with my money. A game forum is a place where people say what they like or dislike about a surtain game. If you don't know that than you should never run a website about a game (no ofence).
Well, just remember there's a good reason why I run a site like that and you don't. It's just too bad you can't see it.

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When I first saw TOT I was so impresed with the characters in these movies. Vader was one of the best bad guys in movie history, the Emperor was just EVIL. Now what GL and LA are doing to these heroes is just wrong.
That's because you misconstrued who Vader was intended to be. Just like how people misconstrued how the Force works. I to this day can't understand how people couldn't pick up that some people were stronger in the Force than others when I thought it was crystal clear. I'm talking about the Midi-Chlorian issue. In the OT, it was stated that Luke was their hope in defeating the Sith and it was talked about how strong he was in the Force. Basically it was clear that others had the ability to do it better than others, but for some reason people didn't understand that there has to be a biological explanation on how the Force worked in the first place based on things established in the OT.

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First Vader trains some kid who he knows will become stronger than him. Why? To defeat the Emperor? To use him to destroy the Emperors foes? None of these makes much sence.
It makes perfect sense. Vader can't do it by himself, so he needs help. Reason being was the incident at Mustafar.

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If he would use starkiller to kill his master he would just trade one strong enemy for an even stronger enemy. I would not suspect him to be that stupid.
Who says that Vader was training Starkiller to be his enemy? It was never implied to be that way.

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If he whanted to find the emperors foes why send him on those jedi killing quests?
Did you ever think that those Jedi were enemies to Vader? I could go more into that, but I'm afraid you wouldn't understand since it wasn't clear to you when you played the game in the first place.

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Anny jelly with a brain would send him to form the alliance before killing the jedi. Why? The risk of his allies finding out about his past would be much smaller.
I mentioned this earlier in this thread, but didn't it occur to you that wasn't the plan from the start, but Vader was caught red-handed with an apprentice and instead of killing Starkiller, the Emperor saw an opportunity or opportunities in his favor that match the personality established by him in the movies. Again, I've explained this already in this thread.

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The two sith just look like real amateurs in this game. First they train a kid who could become stronger than them and eventualy kill them and then they send him on a job anny good spy could do.
You have to understand something. If the Sith order is to survive and defeat Jedi, they have to find very strong Force users. If a master makes sure their apprentice isn't stronger than they are and the cycle continues, then each generation you have a weaker and weaker apprentice and eventually the Sith Order is so weak, they don't have a chance to defeat Jedi. Finding the potentially strongest apprentice is key to their survival.

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Why would master Kota help Starkiller?
Sorry to sound rude, but you were not paying attention to the dialogue in the game. You couldn't have asked this question logically if you had. My advice is to watch the light side ending again and really pay attention to the dialogue. The key part was when Juno asked why Kota helped them and listen to Kota's response. It make sense and you decided to not pay attention to it.

Seriously, before making arguments you want to sound valid, you need to do your homework which you failed to do big time. Now we wait until you acknowledge the dialogue I want you to hear that you failed to listen to and nitpick that because you have already decided that you're not going to like anything about this game's storyline.

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Plot twists? Where? When? It was pretty much clear from the start that Vader would betrey him.
Weak, weak, weak argument. This is just your personal opinion and personally (no offense, but I don't believe you, you're just saying it to try to discredit the plot again) I know that isn't true because many people never saw that happen. I didn't see it happen and I have had family and friends who were shocked by Vader's betrayal who saw the game. One of my friends came over and I introduced him the game and showed him all the movies as it tells a good part of the story and he almost fell out of his seat when he saw Vader stick a lightsaber through Starkiller's torso. I've seen too much first hand experiences that I know that you're just reaching for arguments.

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Love story? Starkiller and Juno talk for like 5 seconds in these cutsenes. I've taken baths deeper than their relationship and I saw moore love between a toaster and a coffee pot.
I'm guessing you didn't play the Wii version of the game. There was more interaction between them.

Besides, that shouldn't have mattered. It was clear throughout the game they were developing feelings for each other. So when Juno hear Starkiller's response that she probably won't see him again, she knew that this was her last chance to express her love for him. If he did say he would be back, she wouldn't have even made a move.

BTW, I suggest you get some experience in the love department and you will see how real that love story was as it was realistic. Also keep in mind that the love story was a side issue and not a main focus of the plot and that was handled fine. You're just nitpicking again.

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Don't get this the wrong way but George... he just lost it at some point.

All of his productions since TPM were down hill for me. And the actor? Yeah If I had a chance to play in a live action tv series with will bring big profit and popularity I'd go for it too. There are millions of actors interested in being a part of it... but that does not make it good.
Well, that's your opinion. Others around here feel differently. Like I said earlier, I don't think there is a place for you around this area as you don't fit in here. There's nothing wrong with that as there are plenty of places I don't fit in. That's why I don't go there because my opinions can or will cause trouble.

It's just unfortunate because you seem to be on this mission to make people see things your way and it's not going to happen? So what your reason to continue to come here and rip apart this game that we all love here and that is the reason why we're here?


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Old 01-25-2009, 07:20 AM   #34
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Who says that Vader was training Starkiller to be his enemy? It was never implied to be that way.
The Sith always betray one another. That is the way of dark side. It's pretty much clear that once the emperor is dead Starkiller would be a threat to his master. Pay attention to the dialogue.

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Did you ever think that those Jedi were enemies to Vader? I could go more into that, but I'm afraid you wouldn't understand since it wasn't clear to you when you played the game in the first place.
Enemies he could easily kill without Starkiller. And old man and an outcast he said? Pay attention to the dialogue.

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Sorry to sound rude, but you were not paying attention to the dialogue in the game. You couldn't have asked this question logically if you had. My advice is to watch the light side ending again and really pay attention to the dialogue. The key part was when Juno asked why Kota helped them and listen to Kota's response. It make sense and you decided to not pay attention to it.
No harm done. So he sensed he's hot for Juno. So what? If a guy tries to kill you and then you "think" that he’s not all that bad you risk your life and the life of your allies to help him?
Yeah cool storytelling.

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Weak, weak, weak argument. This is just your personal opinion and personally (no offense, but I don't believe you, you're just saying it to try to discredit the plot again) I know that isn't true because many people never saw that happen. I didn't see it happen and I have had family and friends who were shocked by Vader's betrayal who saw the game. One of my friends came over and I introduced him the game and showed him all the movies as it tells a good part of the story and he almost fell out of his seat when he saw Vader stick a lightsaber through Starkiller's torso. I've seen too much first hand experiences that I know that you're just reaching for arguments.
Dude did you even watch the trailers? Besides if Starkiller would have lived the original trilogy would never take place. A 5 year old could guess that. No offence intended.

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Well, that's your opinion. Others around here feel differently. Like I said earlier, I don't think there is a place for you around this area as you don't fit in here. There's nothing wrong with that as there are plenty of places I don't fit in. That's why I don't go there because my opinions can or will cause trouble.

It's just unfortunate because you seem to be on this mission to make people see things your way and it's not going to happen? So what your reason to continue to come here and rip apart this game that we all love here and that is the reason why we're here?
Oh right so now you know better where I fit? THAT IS A CLASSIC!! From what I can see there are a few users who agree with me.
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Old 01-25-2009, 12:43 PM   #35
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The Sith always betray one another. That is the way of dark side. It's pretty much clear that once the emperor is dead Starkiller would be a threat to his master. Pay attention to the dialogue.
Pay attention to the dialogue? I should ask you that. In fact, I did and you're TRYING use the same comeback, but it doesn't make sense in the same way my original argument. This is getting funnier all the time.

Since you brought it up, Starkiller wasn't aware of Sith betraying one another. Notice his loyalty was strong when confronted about it by Shaak Ti. That's why she called him, "Poor boy." I pay attention to the dialogue, unlike you since I have already caught you on several occasions which you didn't even make acknowledgments about it. Instead of either owning up to your mistake or show where you really knew the game, you try to make lame attempts to try to nail me. If you're going to try to get me, you're going to have to really try because I don't give you much to work with and the reason why that is is because I really know the game. I've beaten it countless times on both the Xbox 360 and on the Wii.

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Enemies he could easily kill without Starkiller. And old man and an outcast he said? Pay attention to the dialogue.
Again, trying to use the same tactic and it failed. This is laughable. If you're going to use this tactic on me again, at least have it make sense for crying out loud.

There are lots of points I can use against your weak argument. So here is one.

"Your training is nearly complete. It's time for you to face your first true test."

Starkiller hunting and destroying Jedi was done to help complete his training. Didn't "you" pay attention? Again, I've already stated earlier in this thread on why that was. Paying attention again to me? Nice try pal... nice try!

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So he sensed he's hot for Juno. So what? If a guy tries to kill you and then you "think" that he’s not all that bad you risk your life and the life of your allies to help him?
Yeah cool storytelling.
Did you even play the same game I did? It sounds like you didn't even realize that Starkiller was on the path to redemption and she saw it. Starkiller saved her from death and made slow changes to change his life and she witnessed that. She also knew that was a difficult thing since all he had known was the dark side. She was impressed with his growth and his growing feelings for her as it lead for her to grow her feelings back for him. It's good story telling and it was done well enough to make it a side issue where that wasn't the mean focus of the story. Perfectly done.

Now, if you can do better, why don't you go out there and write stories and show the world you can do a better job because until you can prove you can do better, the tactics you're using in your arguments are very weak.

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Dude did you even watch the trailers? Besides if Starkiller would have lived the original trilogy would never take place.
Ya think?

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A 5 year old could guess that. No offence intended.
So the story is pointless because Starkiller living would screw up the original trilogy? So now the story is pointless in the first place from your point of view because of that very fact? Why did you even play the game in the first place then? You should have figured that out before you went out and bought a copy. Talk about not thinking things through and then you freak out after you played it saying it was soooo predictable. Again, why did you even bother playing this game? Sorry, but that is just flaky.

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Oh right so now you know better where I fit? THAT IS A CLASSIC!! From what I can see there are a few users who agree with me.
I meant no offense by it, but you still couldn't take it the right way. That's why I included that there are places I don't fit. I don't go to forums of games I dislike there to mock a game. So I'm done trying to sound nice when you don't get that I'm trying to. It's stupid because it's being a troll, but it seems to me that you live for doing that kind of crap or you wouldn't be here. Pretty simple logic if you ask me. Don't feel bad as you're not alone trying tactics like that. Some people love to be the negative guy. You just happen to be one of them.

The only reason you're here is to bash the game and when you make your comeback, you'll bash it again. Unbelievable.


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Old 01-25-2009, 02:46 PM   #36
Zwier Zak
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You are wrong in so many places it's not even funny any more. I can see that no argument will ever penetrate the mind of a fan boy. If you'd actually READ my posts you’d know that you caught me on nothing but getting involved in a hopeless conversation.
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Old 01-25-2009, 07:20 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Zwier Zak View Post
You are wrong in so many places it's not even funny any more. I can see that no argument will ever penetrate the mind of a fan boy. If you'd actually READ my posts youíd know that you caught me on nothing but getting involved in a hopeless conversation.
Caught you on nothing? Are you for real?

Here is an example of someone who wasn't paying attention where I caught one of your argument flaws.

After Starkiller's death and the formation of the Rebellion on Kashyyyk:

Juno: You knew who he was didn't you?
Kota: I suspected, yes.
Juno: [THE QUESTION YOU NEEDED TO PAY ATTENTION TO] Then why did you help us? After all the things we've done?
Kota: [THE ANSWER YOU NEEDED TO LISTEN TO] When he came to me in the bar - among all his dark thoughts I glimpse one bright spot; one beautiful thing he held on to even at the end.
Juno: What?
Kota: You.


You go on to say this as a point of something wrong with the plot:

"Why would master Kota help Starkiller?"

It was addressed and yet you decided to try to use that as a point in your campaign to bring down the game proving you didn't pay attention to the dialogue. On top of that, I asked you to listen to this point at the end of the game to SHOW what you missed and you failed to do so; instead you argued back.


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Old 01-26-2009, 04:29 AM   #38
Zwier Zak
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Originally Posted by Shem View Post
Caught you on nothing? Are you for real?

Here is an example of someone who wasn't paying attention where I caught one of your argument flaws.

After Starkiller's death and the formation of the Rebellion on Kashyyyk:

Juno: You knew who he was didn't you?
Kota: I suspected, yes.
Juno: [THE QUESTION YOU NEEDED TO PAY ATTENTION TO] Then why did you help us? After all the things we've done?
Kota: [THE ANSWER YOU NEEDED TO LISTEN TO] When he came to me in the bar - among all his dark thoughts I glimpse one bright spot; one beautiful thing he held on to even at the end.
Juno: What?
Kota: You.


You go on to say this as a point of something wrong with the plot:

"Why would master Kota help Starkiller?"

It was addressed and yet you decided to try to use that as a point in your campaign to bring down the game proving you didn't pay attention to the dialogue. On top of that, I asked you to listen to this point at the end of the game to SHOW what you missed and you failed to do so; instead you argued back.
If you'd actually read my posts you'd know that I never denied this dialogue. I said that if "the one bright spot" is enough to risk the fate of the galaxy than Kota is a bad leader.

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Originally Posted by Zwier Zak View Post
No harm done. So he sensed he's hot for Juno. So what? If a guy tries to kill you and then you "think" that he’s not all that bad you risk your life and the life of your allies to help him?
Yeah cool storytelling.
Even though I caught YOU on not paying attention you’re still going to bash me although you have no good arguments except your own twisted logic.
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Old 01-26-2009, 11:58 AM   #39
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If you'd actually read my posts you'd know that I never denied this dialogue. I said that if "the one bright spot" is enough to risk the fate of the galaxy than Kota is a bad leader.
Oh, no you didn't. All you said was: "Why would master Kota help Starkiller?"

Besides, even if you did, you're basing it on your own opinion as if it was fact. Besides, Kota became a drunk with nothing to live for while Starkiller came to him for information on how to bring down the Empire and shortly afterward Stormtroopers came to get him. Logically following Starkiller is an easy decision.

It was Luke who so that "one bright spot" in Vader and that is what he used to redeem his father to help him bring balance to the Force. Basically it's not a stretch. You're just reaching for reasons to bash the game.

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Even though I caught YOU on not paying attention youíre still going to bash me
You have not unless for some reason I became you and you became me.

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Originally Posted by Zwier Zak View Post
although you have no good arguments except your own twisted logic.
Nice insult. Is that the best you can do?


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Old 01-26-2009, 01:57 PM   #40
Zwier Zak
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Originally Posted by Shem View Post
Oh, no you didn't. All you said was: "Why would master Kota help Starkiller?"

Besides, even if you did, you're basing it on your own opinion as if it was fact. Besides, Kota became a drunk with nothing to live for while Starkiller came to him for information on how to bring down the Empire and shortly afterward Stormtroopers came to get him. Logically following Starkiller is an easy decision.

It was Luke who so that "one bright spot" in Vader and that is what he used to redeem his father to help him bring balance to the Force. Basically it's not a stretch. You're just reaching for reasons to bash the game.

You have not unless for some reason I became you and you became me.

Nice insult. Is that the best you can do?
No insult intended mate.

If the main reason is what we heard in the 5 second dialogue at the end then than I rest my case about how silly the plot is.

I can see this is going no where. Let's just agree to disagree and be on our merry way?
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