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Old 12-18-2008, 01:36 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by CommanderQ View Post
Well, there will always be some that are corrupt, but if you know who the local drug lord is, why don't you report it should you find anything that points to them as a drug lord. Also, not all the time is everything what it seems, for all you know, that drug lord could be, in fact, a mole placed in an organization meant to catch the big fish in the drug cartel. Then again, the cop could be corrupt, hopefully not.
CQ, if I know who the local drug lord is, are you really telling me the Police don't know who he is? The whole town know's what his real occupation. Yeah, cause police moles sit around in public, laughing with Police officers? :|



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Old 12-18-2008, 01:40 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by jonathan7 View Post
CQ, if I know who the local drug lord is, are you really telling me the Police don't know who he is? The whole town know's what his real occupation. Yeah, cause police moles sit around in public, laughing with Police officers? :|
In some cases the police don't know, honestly, Law Enforcement is good, but they can miss the most minor and obvious of things. Yes, police moles can talk and laugh with officers...and if he is really a drug lord, then he obviously isn't selling drugs...yet. He could just be playing cozy, that too.


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Old 12-18-2008, 01:55 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by CommanderQ View Post
In some cases the police don't know, honestly, Law Enforcement is good, but they can miss the most minor and obvious of things. Yes, police moles can talk and laugh with officers...and if he is really a drug lord, then he obviously isn't selling drugs...yet. He could just be playing cozy, that too.
You don't arrest him right away because you want to see who he's getting his drugs from and who his associates are, and expand the information base to get to the big Kahuna who's running the national or international operation.


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Old 12-18-2008, 02:03 PM   #44
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True, also, you cannot arrest the man if there is no ample proof that he is a drug lord. A warrant or a report is what is needed to properly arrest, and as you said, he is a link to the group in the drug chain of command. Village rumors isn't enough to get a man arrested and put to justice, and the police probably do know. Thanks for the add-on, Jae!


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Old 12-18-2008, 10:26 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by mimartin View Post
It sounds as though you've never had a gun pointed at you. If the officer is requesting you comply to a command with his weapon pointed at you may I suggest you save your questions until after he has lowered that weapon. Even then, if it is a traffic stop and you would like a chance of getting out of the ticket, Id suggest a very polite attitude and friendly demeanor.
That's a completely different scenario than what I was stating. I meant just when an officer asks your name and such, not if he has his gun pointed at you and ready to fire.
And obviously it should always be done politely, I never said you had to be rude.


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Old 12-19-2008, 10:23 AM   #46
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I'm not a gun-lover, but I think it is important for officers to carry firearms. They should carry tasers as well. Those can effectively take down an opponent who has a knife, but without the firearm, it would do nothing for gun-toting criminals.

A pistol is not too excessive because they are not automatic weapons, but are effective at handing most situations where an officer's life is at risk. Or what if you had a situation where they had another's life at risk? If they only have a matter of seconds to act, their precious radios wouldn't do much good. A truncheon, or even an air taser would not be very effective at neutralizing the criminal before he kills a hostage or the officer himself.

It's like Rosevelt once said "Speak softly, but carry a big stick." This works well if the intent is to not use the stick/gun, but just carrying them would give more leverage in a situation. They can be dissuasive enough that people would not seek to challenge an officer. Just in case that's not enough, they still can call for backup.

I am not for everyone else carrying weapons, especially assault riffles, but this is too idealistic to ever be a reality. The only way to ensure the law is kept is to give officers all the means to protect both themselves and others. For that, they need both pistols and training in the use of non-lethal weapons.
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Old 12-19-2008, 04:33 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by mur'phon View Post
Should cops be armed? Depends on the country. If it has restrictive gun laws, they, imo, shouldn't. The reason is that criminals expecting to face the police, if they arm themselves, do it depending to what they expect the police to have, and the ease of getting guns. If for instance the police have battons/tazers, they won't get an SMG as it'll be risky to aquire, and give the harsher punishments if they're caught.
The amateurish criminals maybe, the more psychotic ones tend to try to outgun whatever a cop has.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mur'phon
As for tazers, the problem with them is that while they are suposed to be usead instead of guns, police officers tend to use them instead of battons. And while tazers don't usually kill, they do it often enough to be a poor substitute for old fashioned hand to hand subduing.
Situation is that there are good cops and bad cops, and to be perfectly blunt gun control laws just make it harder for law-abiding citizens to get guns, the criminals just go and get guns off the black market.

While the situation with the kid is saddening, I do not blame the cop whom may very well be torn up inside because of what he had to do. I've heard of more blatent incidents of Police Brutality though.
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Old 12-19-2008, 05:50 PM   #48
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The amateurish criminals maybe, the more psychotic ones tend to try to outgun whatever a cop has.
Provided it's worth the risk, and won't cause terrible problems if caught with them, then yes. However, it's not as easy to get a hold of such weapons in every country, which is why I am against the carrying of guns by for instance Norwegian police, and in favor of having U.S police carry them.

Quote:
Situation is that there are good cops and bad cops, and to be perfectly blunt gun control laws just make it harder for law-abiding citizens to get guns, the criminals just go and get guns off the black market.
This of course supose that there is a black market that is easily accesible, which isn't the case everywhere.
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Old 12-19-2008, 09:25 PM   #49
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Well in the US, there is a black market for almost everything that is banned. The rather porous border with Mexico makes it easier to get things like illegal arms. We saw something similar with when we had prohibition. Alcohol was brought in from Canada and many other countries(as well as produced by moonshiners).
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Old 12-21-2008, 11:07 PM   #50
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Well in the US, there is a black market for almost everything that is banned. The rather porous border with Mexico makes it easier to get things like illegal arms. We saw something similar with when we had prohibition. Alcohol was brought in from Canada and many other countries(as well as produced by moonshiners).
There is also a pretty bad history concerning the attempts to ban guns in the United States. One of them is arguably why the 2nd Amendment is in the Constitution to begin with.
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Old 12-22-2008, 12:35 AM   #51
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You're familiar with these sorts of situations, obviously, a person with a knife, with no training, can still kill a person. Kevlar doesn't do jack for a knife. Give 'em a little speed and they may go through half a dozen people before they're stopped. Heck you can put a few bullets into a guy on speed and it won't slow 'em down, and they might be armed with nothing less than their own two hands.

So, how many cops should I sacrifice to stop one kid without killing them? Honestly, there are lots of kids in the world, and there will always be more, people are pretty apt at making new ones, and pretty good at not teaching them jack so there will certainly be more kids who end up in situations like this.

There will not however always be more cops, cops are something the world takes for granted, yet they are not a given in life. Sure, there will always be people who want to protect others, and there will always be people who want take the law into their own hands. There will not however, always be people who are willing to undergo intense physical and mental training, and restrain themselves in most situations in order to protect the most amount of people the greatest amount of time.

At some point you tie the hands of the cops to the point where people no longer want to be cops, and situations like these are solved by me killing the kid for threatening me with a knife instead of a cop doing it. And ya know what, in most of the reasonable world, if I have a way to defend myself when somebody threatens my life, they're pretty OK with me doing whatever it takes to protect myself. In recent years, AUS, and a good deal of Europe+the UK, have failed to understand this as self defense is generally regarded as just a egregious a crime as unprovoked assault and battery.

In any case I digress, how many of my limited cop resources should I utilize to stop a kid with a knife? Should I lose one? Two? Six? Hey maybe the kid will get a bright idea and steal the cop car since the cops are only trying to stop him by running interference. Maybe he'll mow down some people, the emotional trauma to the cops could cause me to lose even more. The screwed up AUS court system would likly cost me some the higher ups, guys who've stuck with the system instead of quit early.

So, I'll ask one more time because repetition is good for learning, and I'll apologize for seeming to be rude but I'm tired of this attitude that any action cops take to stop a person is bad. And trust me, you say "shooting bad" I'll find you a dozen instances of "tackling bad" "hitting bad" "restraining bad" and so on. I, like you, know cops, ex-cops, military, ex-military, and everyone in between.

So, my question: how many cops should stopping one kid cost?

My opinion? None. One or two if the kid is heavily armed. But when it comes to armed and violent offenders, I prefer my cops to stop them cold rather than risk their lives on foolish measures that may kill them because the people they're protecting and the system they serve think that they're the criminals.

To your more specific question, since you're familiar with cops, you are clearly familiar with the intense training they go through. You or I with a little gun training are the danger, not guys who are forced day in and day out to learn how to use weapons properly. Is the average 23 year old trained enough to carry a gun? No. Is the average officer trained enough to carry a gun? Yes.

Also: your title of this tread is somewhat offensive. Cops are indeed "everywhere" and as are the people they end up killing. Cops are not however, randomly mowing down kids in the street, this isn't South Africa and this isn't Apartheid. You know this, I know this. You're not scoring any points here by making cops out to be violent maniacs. As someone familiar with "ex-cops" and "ex-cons", you should know that's not the truth.
THANK YOU! You score *MAJOR* points with me. Also, just because something is outlawed or banned doesn't mean it will disappear. Criminals will only become more clever with obtaining and using guns.

While I suppose I could jump out of a tree like a ninja with my sword and decapitate one or two marauding gang members with guns, if they have numbers in the distance watching their back, well, my katana is not a lightsaber and I'm pretty much screwed. I'd much rather use cover and range. I mean, I'd like to survive by the best chances possible. If cops are cut down because the opposition had guns and they didn't...well, it would come to that colorful scenario above if guns were not allowed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles View Post
I think the fact that criminals carry guns (at least in this country) kinda automatically negates any sort of philosophical discussion we could have as to whether or not police officers should have them.
something about discriminant careful selection of persons according to field
<snip>
To summarize my rather lengthy answer: there is no quick fix for this problem.

Before I step off my soapbox, I think that I should disclose that my father was a career police officer and I that I briefly majored in Administration of Justice with the intent to follow in his footsteps. Hopefully that will allow you to clearly identify any bias which may be present in my opinions as I have expressed them. Thanks for reading.
I have an uncle who has had a career of prison security, from guard (and I know he has broken a few convicts across his knee), to counsellor, to security advisor. There are some really despicable vile people who will kill you if you are not careful. They need to know they are not in charge. Hanharr is one example of the mentality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vanir View Post
This happened a few days ago in a suburb near me.
http://www.theage.com.au/national/te...1211-6wtt.html

I'm ex-security, mates are ex-cop or ex-con and we all reckon England had it right with no firearms for regular patrol cops.
I beg to differ.

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Originally Posted by Achilles View Post
Here's the reasoning. You've got a gun. Kid has knife. If you're going to arrest kid with knife and you've got gun, you have to shoot kid with knife to stop kid from getting gun.

Simple answer: you can't afford to have a scuffle with armed offenders when carrying a firearm. So don't bring a gun!
We say: the primary weapon of policing forces is the radio. With it you have instant numbers. Who cares about a knife when you've got thirty two-hundred pound blokes jumping the feller?
And how about if similar incidents are happening in 29 other places in town.
I know this is only theory and supposition however, you asked for it. But to maintain respect here is perspective:
While you have 30 apes with badges beating down one kid, you have 29 others with knives or worse running amok. Where are the cops? Still arresting the one kid and doing their after-gloating.

Also consider: You cannot always wrest a knife from another's grip. My uncle broke a con's arm in a similar situation and the guy still didn't let go of the knife so his fellow guard had to take a baton and whack the knife out of the guy's grip--yes, breaking the con's hand.

Regardless how well trained you are you may not always succeed. Shooting or breaking that arm may need to be done. Which is something that the cop failed to do, admittedly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vanir View Post
So. I understand many yanks love guns like women. They love cops with guns, girls with guns, they'd never stop laughing or loving life if furry animals carried guns.
Oh, gee, THANKS. I really love being called a biggot redneck because I like guns. Thanks a lot.
Am I also a weaboo because I like kendo? or asian things?
A conqistadore? or crusader brute because I like fencing too?

Quote:
Originally Posted by vanir View Post
Opinions. Are 23 year olds who get scared by teens with steak knives, really responsible enough, or commonly well trained enough, to carry guns?
It depends, and it sounds like you forgot to factor in EXPERIENCE--so often overlooked when referencing thuggery.
Maybe the kid came from a rough neighborhood and had to fight every day of his life--while the cop came from the suburbs and lived a little more relaxed so his training is all he has. Just one view to consider.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Endorenna View Post
What he said. I can understand being upset about the fact that your father died, but picking up knives and threatening to kill a policeman with them is crossing the line. Major-league crossing the line. He probably brought it on himself.
And, BTW, not all us yanks are the type to love anything with a gun.
Lastly, your title is misleading.
I agree.


Quote:
Originally Posted by True_Avery View Post
Yeah, he made a threat and was holding a knife. But shooting him to death is a little excessive, don't you think?
Could be excessive, could be right on. None of us were there, so we don't really know.
Quote:
Originally Posted by True_Avery View Post
Shooting to kill isn't well trained. You are trained to kill only if it is the last resort.

<snip>

Do some people pretty much ask to be shot? Yeah, but when necessary.

<snip>

I'll suspend judgment until I see a better detailed article.
I called a group of people "backwater rednecks" once in a gun thread, and quickly realized that it made me and my argument look plain ignorant.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yankee

From your speech, I'm going to go under the assumption that you are not American (Correct me if I'm wrong). The term Yank is often a derogatory word, even if it is not meant to be. I know it is a common word for Americans outside the US, but the word has a history of bad taste and while it may be normal speech for you, it is derogatory term towards Americans.
I could care less about it, but I'm just pointing this out to you so you don't discredit yourself further by purposefully, or mistakenly placing insults in your posts. Also, work on your thread title.
Insightful. And experienced. True, the end result is rather extreme. Were there other things that could have been done? Probably so.

Vanir, I wasn't offended, but I certainly hope I have (with all due respect to you) "advised a slight lack of appreciative endeavor" --vanir.
I know you weren't calling me a yankee--but take care not to ire and alienate people against you.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rabish Bini View Post
You don't have to provide any information unless he gives you his name, department/police station and such.
When a policeman says jump, you ask for his information.
Unless he has reason to believe you are in the act of committing a felony or has probable cause. They have the right in those circumstances to stop you first and ask later.

I'll admit in the latter case of probable cause I have had my fair share of cops who picked on me for awhile. I do fit a sort of "rough" profile. I got in quite a few bad fights as a minor too.

However, since I was reported to be breaking into a car (my own because I locked my keys inside) the local scene has piped down on me since I'm not a troublemaker...at least to their eyes. The one cop just joked with me and called me a poor bastard.


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