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Old 02-08-2009, 03:15 PM   #1
Yar-El
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Newsweek Article

Newsweek Article - Why There Won’t Be a Revolution

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The poor you will always have, the good book says, but as for the rich man, he will wither away like a delicate flower in the midday sun. The first prediction has certainly been borne out, but the second part (James 1:11) had not yet come to pass by the Panic of 1907, when Theodore Roosevelt warned of a coming reckoning against the "malefactors of great wealth." Nor by 1990, when former Nixon aide Kevin Phillips predicted that Americans would rise to extract revenge on "the rich who got the benefits of the go-go years" of the 1980s. As late as 2001, no less an authority than, uh, NEWSWEEK wrote in the wake of 9/11 that "the arrogant wheeler-dealer ordering a $600 bottle of wine with dinner … has vanished utterly as an icon," which remained true until approximately 2002. Well, listen up, you rich guys, this time we really mean it. The president himself is repelled by your rapacious greed, your kids are ashamed to admit that their mom is a banker, even your girlfriends are sick of your whining about your bonus, and you're going to have to learn to live on $500,000 a year like a normal person. Oh, and by the way, nice watch. Is it Cartier?
I completely disagree with the reason behind why the upcoming revolution will be exclusively about class. I have seen and read enough to believe the next revolution will be about those who are corrupt and those who are patriots. Almost everyone in politics, massmedia, and in corporations are corrupt. Each is pushing for a stake in controlling how we think, walk, eat, and breath. I truely think we are going to have a revolution in the very near future; however, I don't think the massmedia is ready to be blamed for being apart of the problem.

If you post in this forum it is free for everyone to reply, or I will simply lock the thread, you are of course free to only answer Americans I shall stay out of the thread, accept for moderation purposes now as of your request - j7

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Old 02-08-2009, 03:35 PM   #2
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It depends on how a "revolution" should be interpreted. If you mean a revolution against the state by rogue organizations, i.e., guerrilla warfare, then I doubt that would happen in the US, or anywhere else in the Western world.

First, no one is being persecuted to the breaking point. There are reasons why Batista, Pahlavi, and Nicolas II all faced revolution; they were complete despots. They controlled the population with fear absolute authority, which really has not happened in America.

Additionally, it's an unfortunate fact that most Americans are either too lazy or ignorant to resort to protests and eventually violence against the state.

Oh, and nice try disguising this thread. We all know who it's really about... (It starts with an "O" and ends with an "a")
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Old 02-08-2009, 03:54 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by PastramiX View Post
It depends on how a "revolution" should be interpreted. If you mean a revolution against the state by rogue organizations, i.e., guerrilla warfare, then I doubt that would happen in the US, or anywhere else in the Western world.

First, no one is being persecuted to the breaking point. There are reasons why Batista, Pahlavi, and Nicolas II all faced revolution; they were complete despots. They controlled the population with fear absolute authority, which really has not happened in America.

Additionally, it's an unfortunate fact that most Americans are either too lazy or ignorant to resort to protests and eventually violence against the state.
Wrong! The American Revolution was not exclusively about persecution. We have also hit a breaking point in US history. People are extremely motivated by the corruption in politics, corporations, and massmedia. Listen to what people are saying. We have politicians scaring people with war, high taxes, and economic decline. I don't think we will resort to protests due to the realization they don't work. Action is the only other course.

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Oh, and nice try disguising this thread. We all know who it's really about... (It starts with an "O" and ends with an "a")
Is this a new thing now? Someone has a opinion in contradiction to a selected group, and then they yell, "FOUL!" Where did you get Obama from? I'm talking about a all out revolution between the corrupt and uncorrupt.
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Old 02-08-2009, 03:57 PM   #4
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Is this a new thing now? Someone has a opinion in contradiction to a selected group, and then they yell, "FOUL!" Where did you get Obama from?
That's not new, its been going on since Time immemorial.

There won't be a revolution due to the fact the FBI/CIA and the Army ultimately, wouldn't allow it.



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Old 02-08-2009, 03:59 PM   #5
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That's not new, its been going on since Time immemorial.

There won't be a revolution due to the fact the FBI/CIA and the Army ultimately, wouldn't allow it.
There are laws that prevent them from being involved.

The Posse Comitatus Act & Insurrection Act of 1807.

I think people are feeling truely enraged.
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Old 02-08-2009, 04:02 PM   #6
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There are laws that prevent them from being involved.

The Posse Comitatus Act & Insurrection Act of 1807
Do you really think all these "corrupt" politicians would allow themselves to loose power over a 200 year old law. Nor do I think the dynamics are anywhere near bad enough for a revolution, America has seen much worse times off without one.

Revolutions are only successful if you have control of a vital asset - the army, nor do I think people are nearly as angry over the super rich as you think...



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Old 02-08-2009, 04:06 PM   #7
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Do you really think all these "corrupt" politicians would allow themselves to loose power over a 200 year old law. Nor do I think the dynamics are anywhere near bad enough for a revolution, America has seen much worse times off without one.
Things have changed over the years. 53% of our fellow Americans hired someone who was not a Washington insider.
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Old 02-08-2009, 04:08 PM   #8
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Things have changed over the years. 53% of our fellow Americans hired someone who was not a Washington insider.
I'm not American Things do change, but I highly doubt there will be a revolution, not least because nearly all the Americans I know are not angry enough to even want one.



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Old 02-08-2009, 04:11 PM   #9
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I'm not American Things do change, but I highly doubt there will be a revolution, not least because nearly all the Americans I know are not angry enough to even want one.
You and I don't have anything to say to each other on this topic. Another American Revolution doesn't directly affect you; thus, there is no longer any need for you and I to debate on the subject.

I will wait until an American Citizen chimes in.
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Old 02-08-2009, 04:17 PM   #10
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I'm American.

I disagree with a revolution being entirely about class as the article says. I can see it being more about outrage for some reason or another. We've already begun numerous threads of why, pointing to this as a conclusion.

Patriots vs corrupt intenrational weasels? OK. I can go with that.
Yeah, whoever heard of an honest politician?
Media...yeah it's about time they got their spanking...
Likely, if the banks and economic system melt down and collapse. That is the most plausible main reason. That and someone finally succeeds in undoing our constitution. Which, there are some who wish to do that, in secrecy.


--Still going to play devil's advocate here: I mean I know people generally don't mean well...but come on. World collapse? I know it's gonna suck for us here in the states if/when something boils over, that much I won't deny--but the whole world?

Quote:
Oh, and nice try disguising this thread. We all know who it's really about... (It starts with an "O" and ends with an "a")
Down, boy! Down! Seriously why does everyone assume in the least it's all about Obama? He's just a man--furthermore I think the article in question is concentrating on an issue--not a person (even if there may be a relationship between them). >_>

No more of this Obama crap, fanboys, fangirls, and critics.


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Old 02-08-2009, 04:17 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Yar-El View Post
You and I don't have anything to say to each other on this topic. Another American Revolution doesn't directly affect you; thus, there is no longer any need for you and I to debate on the subject.

I will wait until an American Citizen chimes in.
Of course it directly affects me, America is the worlds only super power, and her influence is felt all over the world in a million and one different ways. You don't have to respond to my posts, if somehow, my reasoning doesn't count as I'm not American. I would suggest if you want to debate this with *only* Americans, you might want to post it in a forum, where you can only enter if you are American. Last time I checked Lucas Forums was multi national, and if you happen to post in this forum, all nationals are welcome to comment on any subject.



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Old 02-08-2009, 04:21 PM   #12
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Of course it directly affects me, America is the worlds only super power, and her influence is felt all over the world in a million and one different ways.
I have my doubts--but if you care to disprove me, I will indulge you.


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You don't have to respond to my posts, if somehow, my reasoning doesn't count as I'm not American. I would suggest if you want to debate this with *only* Americans, you might want to post it in a forum, where you can only enter if you are American. Last time I checked Lucas Forums was multi national, and if you happen to post in this forum, all nationals are welcome to comment on any subject.
MMh.. I'd say Americans are beginning to get a bit restless. Like you said: Maybe not near angry enough yet. Still, I wouldn't ignore it.


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Old 02-08-2009, 04:23 PM   #13
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I have my doubts--but if you care to disprove me, I will indulge you.

MMh.. I'd say Americans are beginning to get a bit restless. Like you said: Maybe not near angry enough yet. Still, I wouldn't ignore it.
I'm also betting on the military support for the people. Our military is growing restless as well; thus, I think they will support a fight to protect constitutional law. America doesn't seem to be living in a world of everything is normal.
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Old 02-08-2009, 04:24 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Yar-El View Post
You and I don't have anything to say to each other on this topic. Another American Revolution doesn't directly affect you; thus, there is no longer any need for you and I to debate on the subject.

I will wait until an American Citizen chimes in.
I'm an American citizen and j7 was right and you are pretty silly to say that a second American revolution wouldn't affect anyone else.



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Old 02-08-2009, 04:26 PM   #15
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I have my doubts--but if you care to disprove me, I will indulge you.
America has the biggest military in the world; we have a duel presence in both Iraq and Afghanistan, should there be a revolution, the Army could well be put into disarary. And as such, that effects our troop, and has an effect on Britain. Ergo; I'm affected.

Should there be a revolution, the already fragile Financial markets would be hit by further freefall; ergo I'm affected.

America is the worlds biggest donate of aid; if there is a revolution that could change, ergo any country needed aid is affected.

On a personal level; I have American family - if there is a revolution that would cause me to be worried and affected.

Do you really want me to go on?



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Old 02-08-2009, 04:29 PM   #16
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I don't see a Revolution happening in this day and age, to be honest, especially in the US.

If revolution were as imminent as is claimed, surely we all (and I include people of all nationalities in this) would have seen something of this?






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Old 02-08-2009, 04:34 PM   #17
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I'm an American citizen and j7 was right and you are pretty silly to say that a second American revolution wouldn't affect anyone else.
You are right in your analysis. An American Revolution would affect the world; however, it would not feel its affects in a direct way. Sure, we can argue how the lack of world assistance may causes unrest; nevertheless, no one in another country will feel the brunt force of an all out revolution. Not immediately anyway.

Comments about if people are on an ignore list or not are considered against Kavars rules. Though you cannot put me on your ignore list due to the fact I'm a moderator - j7

I also can't keep you out of my posts.
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Old 02-08-2009, 04:45 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Yar-El View Post
You and I don't have anything to say to each other on this topic. Another American Revolution doesn't directly affect you; thus, there is no longer any need for you and I to debate on the subject.

I will wait until an American Citizen chimes in.
Think of it this way: A revolution in a country like Micronesia would be like throwing a pebble in a lake; small ripples spread throughout the water. A revolution in a superpower such as America would be like a kilometer-wide meteor hurtling at the lake at several thousand kilometers-an-hour, instantly throwing water up into the air, instantly vaporizing it, while creating a massive impact crater.

An armed revolution in any western nation would ultimately dramatically effect the world, leaving the global economy in shambles, enticing other more enthusiastic nations to potentially gobble up adjacent territory, and possibly triggering a world-wide conflict, which might turn nuclear.

This domino effect has been seen in the past, especially form the Great Depression, and how that effected essentially all of Europe. Of course, that was in 1929, when the world was still rather isolated. Today, the entire world is interconnected through many different factors, essentially impossible to reverse.
Quote:
You are right in your analysis. An American Revolution would affect the world; however, it would not feel its affects in a direct way. Sure, we can argue how the lack of world assistance may causes unrest; nevertheless, no one in another country will feel the brunt force of an all out revolution. Not immediately anyway.
No, it would immediately effect the world. Not only is isolation virtually impossible today, we also have instant access to knowledge and information via the Internets. Any news of a revolution would get out quickly, causing economists and investors to scramble and panic, probably triggering a crash in the stock market, as in 1929. Either way, the world will be affected almost immediately.
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Old 02-08-2009, 04:48 PM   #19
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J7 is un-ignorable, partly due to being a nice wordsmith, partly due to being a mod.

Not feel the effects imediately? My countries are Russia and Norway, and an American revolution might well lead to a rather imediate occupation of the latter by the former, which would affect me in a majorly bad way (would make paperwork a breeze though).

Anyway, I can't see a revolution due to corruption, sure, America does have corruption, but it is nothing in a global sense. Besides, a country with fairly functual governmental institutions, a fairly well off population and little oppression gives the people little reason to want a revolution, as well as making one nigh on impossible to pull off.
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Old 02-08-2009, 04:52 PM   #20
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Think of it this way: A revolution in a country like Micronesia would be like throwing a pebble in a lake; small ripples spread throughout the water. A revolution in a superpower such as America would be like a kilometer-wide meteor hurtling at the lake at several thousand kilometers-an-hour, instantly throwing water up into the air, instantly vaporizing it, while creating a massive impact crater.

An armed revolution in any western nation would ultimately dramatically effect the world, leaving the global economy in shambles, enticing other more enthusiastic nations to potentially gobble up adjacent territory, and possibly triggering a world-wide conflict, which might turn nuclear.

This domino effect has been seen in the past, especially form the Great Depression, and how that effected essentially all of Europe. Of course, that was in 1929, when the world was still rather isolated. Today, the entire world is interconnected through many different factors, essentially impossible to reverse.
Has the United States really become an empire? Do other people think this way? How can a Revolutionary War in the US be globally effective? I didn't think we had a global impact in such a scale.
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Old 02-08-2009, 04:53 PM   #21
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I'm an American, and I think people are overreacting. It isn't that bad. The problem with America is that it is too divided. Remember George Washinton's Farewell Address? He was spot on about pretty much everything, especially his warnings about Political Parties and Government spending.

America is, as Kreia would say:

Quote:
[...] a stagnant beast that labors for breath...
I also quote:

Quote:
Divided we fail.
The problem is only partially connected to the wealthy people of the country, it is composed of tons of problems and issues that hold it back and starve it from its potential.

I dont think there'll be any revolution. People are just going to keep whining and complaining, but it won't do anything. The country will keep going, slowly and painfully, deteriorating and bulding itself back up, until someone steps up and really gets things moving.

Still, it could be worse. But it's not going to get much worse. It's just going to keep going and going and going, having its ups and downs as usual...


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Old 02-08-2009, 05:02 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Yar-El View Post
Has the United States really become an empire?
Uh..... yeah. Ever heard of something called the Cold War?
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Do other people think this way?
I'm sure not willingly, but denying the superpower status of the US would be quite ignorant.
Quote:
How can a Revolutionary War in the US be globally effective?
The global economy, especially the oil industry, would be dramatized with having their number one buyer thrown into anarchy.
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I didn't think we had a global impact in such a scale.
Ever heard of the Great Depression?
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Old 02-08-2009, 05:02 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Yar-El View Post
Has the United States really become an empire? Do other people think this way? How can a Revolutionary War in the US be globally effective? I didn't think we had a global impact in such a scale.
hmm yase i dont know anything about this issue perhaps i shall comment upon it regardless



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Old 02-08-2009, 05:03 PM   #24
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You don't think people are boiling over? I keep hearing about another Revolution. I normally ignore people who say such things; however, you can't ignore the radio, tv, and internet these days. Something is boiling beneath the surface. You can feel it.
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Old 02-08-2009, 05:06 PM   #25
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America has the biggest military in the world; we have a duel presence in both Iraq and Afghanistan, should there be a revolution, the Army could well be put into disarary. And as such, that effects our troop, and has an effect on Britain. Ergo; I'm affected.
Taken.

Quote:
Should there be a revolution, the already fragile Financial markets would be hit by further freefall; ergo I'm affected.
Okay. I can see where you're coming from on an individual level...but on a larger level...I still have doubts. You mean to tell me other wealthy nations (namely those in europe) would be unable to stand on their own sufficiently if something happened to the US? I know the financial situations are volatile--but I have a hard time believing it would become financially so dire if things went to hell in USA. You really mean to tell me if the financial sector broke here, that places like yours would experience a crisis like a depression?

--However I do share your sentiment that if the goniffs high on the food chain do something to rock the boat like take all the money and run --for office or their hideout-- then they ought to be dealt with. How 'dealt with' is another subject not entirely relevant--you get my point here I think.

Quote:
America is the worlds biggest donate of aid; if there is a revolution that could change, ergo any country needed aid is affected.
Wasn't sure. Actually thank you, that's good to hear--the nauseating America bashers in this country who live here would have you believe otherwise. Seriously. --That is good news. Thanks.

However: Greed here is still higher than I ever remember it in my life. On all levels.

Quote:
On a personal level; I have American family - if there is a revolution that would cause me to be worried and affected.
OK. Good a reason as any. Gives me a little more reason to look out for my neighbors.

Quote:
Do you really want me to go on?
I think I see your points... more or less.

Save for the above, bank wise (take as far as need be), No, you don't really have to--sounds like it pains you somewhat.

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I don't see a Revolution happening in this day and age, to be honest, especially in the US.

If revolution were as imminent as is claimed, surely we all (and I include people of all nationalities in this) would have seen something of this?
Sort of what I'm saying. There is more unrest, though. Probably insignificant on a relative scale. The greed is going up, though.


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Old 02-08-2009, 05:06 PM   #26
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You don't think people are boiling over? I keep hearing about another Revolution. I normally ignore people who say such things; however, you can't ignore the radio, tv, and internet these days. Something is boiling beneath the surface. You can feel it.
Hype to sell papers and rhetoric from douchebags with anarchist Hot Topic t-shirts, no one cares, Law & Order is on!



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Old 02-08-2009, 05:10 PM   #27
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You don't think people are boiling over?
Don't you think you're being a bit over-dramatic and acutely paranoid?
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I keep hearing about another Revolution.
If it's from a man named Beelzebub, then I think you should see a priest. If it's from God, the I think you should see a psychiatrist.
Quote:
I normally ignore people who say such things; however, you can't ignore the radio, tv, and internet these days.
You can also ignore the bum on the street who says that Jesus is coming, which is most advisable.
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Something is boiling beneath the surface. You can feel it.
I'm feeling particularly dull at the moment, but that's probably because I'm reading this thread.
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Old 02-08-2009, 05:19 PM   #28
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Okay. I can see where you're coming from on an individual level...but on a larger level...I still have doubts. You mean to tell me other wealthy nations (namely those in europe) would be unable to stand on their own sufficiently if something happened to the US?
Yes, and to give you the basics in a simplified way, it works like this. Spesialization means things are produced where they are cheapest, drivven by demand from whoever is consuming. This means that for instance insane amounts of businesses depend on demand in other countries, and since the US is the biggest consumer....

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I know the financial situations are volatile--but I have a hard time believing it would become financially so dire if things went to hell in USA. You really mean to tell me if the financial sector broke here, that places like yours would experience a crisis like a depression?
Finance is global, where the money commes from matters little, and since the US is such a big part of the financial sector in the world, the crisis is far from local.

As for whatever is boiling under the surface, it smells more like standard bad times uncertanty than a revolution.
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Old 02-08-2009, 06:04 PM   #29
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Yes, and to give you the basics in a simplified way, it works like this. Spesialization means things are produced where they are cheapest, drivven by demand from whoever is consuming. This means that for instance insane amounts of businesses depend on demand in other countries, and since the US is the biggest consumer....
Unfortunately, I don't really see how consumption can continue as is. I mean, how much can we American people really consume? Sure we always need food and tools and clothes and similar.

So far as goods beyond the practical...those relying on us to buy those are in for one hell ride. Sorry. We're in a trend of buying practical stuff for gifts for the time being.

Also, though this may get flack from everyone here--if America doesn't start producing at least *some* of its own goods again (independently and privately as well as public and otherwise), and a natural disaster were to isolate us from the world so that imports and exports can't come and go, we are *screwed*. This isn't paranoia or propaganda talking here. Common sense: we can't stop seismic activity, or erupting volcanoes, or oceanic disasters or a host of other things. I'm not saying go isolationist, just a good idea to be prepared is all. And it's not a bad thing to have some localization in production.

Glad to see you understand some economics though.

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Finance is global, where the money commes from matters little, and since the US is such a big part of the financial sector in the world, the crisis is far from local.
There is nobody else to consume your goods?
You provide for yourselves do you not?

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As for whatever is boiling under the surface, it smells more like standard bad times uncertanty than a revolution.
That wasn't me that said that. Direct it to who did. I'm not all that sure about it actually happening or not. Nor am I completely sure of the backlash.


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Old 02-08-2009, 06:07 PM   #30
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you sir have convinced me that a revolution in the country that has the highest gdp of any single country would not matter to people in other countries all that much



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Old 02-08-2009, 06:14 PM   #31
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As much as I might want it to happen, a revolution has about a snowball's chance in Hell of occuring here in the land of universal apathy.

Things would have to get way, way worse than they are now.


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Fix their home team score on the board to the debt clock, they can win every game 17,000,000,000,000 to 24. Losing team gets taxed by the IRS 100%, then droned."
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Old 02-08-2009, 06:55 PM   #32
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Indeed. To quote Kreia:

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Apathy is death
Well maybe not death, but I agree, apathy isn't a very good thing for a representative democratic country trying to manage 300+ million people.

Things are going to give way, they're be talk of armageddon, revolution, etc, etc, things will get better every now and then, but it'll stay the same for a long, long time. I'll be centuries dead before Star trek becmes reality.

But I'm not being cynical here. I think that progress will be made, slowly, as the world's stability deteriorates. By the time we've got statrek level technology, we'll have to take some time to fix things up on our planet before we start traveling the galaxy.

But, even as bad as things are now, I do beleive that our Ancestors will travel the galaxy.


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Old 02-08-2009, 08:35 PM   #33
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I disagree with your premise Yar and most of the points you've made along the way, generally those things have existed in the US for years, and recessions have happened as well, and we've only had one revolution so far, and the conditions required for that to happen aren't existing now. I guess you could count the Civil War, but that's different reasons entirely, as the nation isn't that divided.

So no, no revolution, not now, not in the near future.


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Old 02-08-2009, 08:54 PM   #34
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But, even as bad as things are now, I do beleive that our Ancestors will travel the galaxy.
I guess, if they somehow discovered time travel, maybe.


"They should rename the team to the Washington Government Sucks. Put Obama on the helmet. Line the entire walls of the stadium with the actual text of the ACA.
Fix their home team score on the board to the debt clock, they can win every game 17,000,000,000,000 to 24. Losing team gets taxed by the IRS 100%, then droned."
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Old 02-08-2009, 09:15 PM   #35
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Time isn't a fixed concept don't be so closed minded.



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Old 02-08-2009, 09:53 PM   #36
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Time isn't a fixed concept don't be so closed minded.
It's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly...timey wimey stuff.


"So if you go to Washington, it's buildings clean and nice. Bring a pack of matches...and we'll burn the White House twice!"

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Old 02-08-2009, 10:00 PM   #37
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You and I don't have anything to say to each other on this topic. Another American Revolution doesn't directly affect you; thus, there is no longer any need for you and I to debate on the subject.

I will wait until an American Citizen chimes in.
Wow, well that's absurd. J7 is one of the smartest people I know and he knows more about American politics &etc than many Americans, perhaps including you.

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Has the United States really become an empire? Do other people think this way? How can a Revolutionary War in the US be globally effective? I didn't think we had a global impact in such a scale.
Yes, we really do.

(By the way, PA is in America if you were wondering.)

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Old 02-08-2009, 10:30 PM   #38
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It's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly...timey wimey stuff.
This reference is win.

That is all.
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Old 02-08-2009, 11:19 PM   #39
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Time isn't a fixed concept don't be so closed minded.
Anything is possible!!


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Old 02-09-2009, 01:43 AM   #40
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Unfortunately, I don't really see how consumption can continue as is. I mean, how much can we American people really consume? Sure we always need food and tools and clothes and similar.
Why can't it? Yes, it won't for a while, but the major reason for people not spending is A: their homes have lost much of their value, and B credit becomming very expensive (conected, but I asume you know how), sure, job loss/fear of loosing ones job factors inn, but with Americas flexible economy, it shouldn't have any problems picking up again once credit is available.

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Also, though this may get flack from everyone here--if America doesn't start producing at least *some* of its own goods again (independently and privately as well as public and otherwise), and a natural disaster were to isolate us from the world so that imports and exports can't come and go, we are *screwed*. This isn't paranoia or propaganda talking here. Common sense: we can't stop seismic activity, or erupting volcanoes, or oceanic disasters or a host of other things. I'm not saying go isolationist, just a good idea to be prepared is all. And it's not a bad thing to have some localization in production.
I would like you to take a look at what the US actually produce, it should give you a nice surprise. Also, out of curiosity, could you mention one kind of disaster that would cut you off from the rest of the world?

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There is nobody else to consume your goods?
You provide for yourselves do you not?
I presume this was directed at my earlier point and not the one I quoted? If so, let's asume 80% of what a company produce is sold to the US, what do you think will happen if demand there sinks to 20% of production? It is not as if demand will magically apear somewhere else.

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Last edited by Jae Onasi; 02-09-2009 at 10:23 AM.
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