lfnetwork.com mark read register faq members calendar

Thread: Lying and Implications on a Forum
Thread Tools Display Modes
Post a new thread. Sorry, this thread is closed. Indicate all threads in this forum as read. Subscribe to this forum. RSS feed: this forum RSS feed: all forums
Old 06-13-2009, 10:03 AM   #41
Darth_Yuthura
Banned
 
Status: Banned
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Vienna
Posts: 1,585
Current Game: KOTOR III
Quote:
Originally Posted by Astor Kaine View Post
Forgive me if I misunderstood, but isn't that basically saying 'i'm right, and if you disagree, you're wrong?'
I'm saying that I wouldn't submit an opinion if I didn't know the subject very well. If the issue were in regards to biology, (A subject I don't have any aptitude for) I wouldn't place much faith in what I know.

It's basically 'If you disagree, I'd like you to prove it before submitting it as proof.'

I assume everyone else would form their opinions based on their experiences, but if they submit something that I don't find convincing, I'm going to assume they're wrong. Likewise if I don't make a convincing argument, I assume they're going to believe I'm wrong.

What actually happens though is that one who can punch holes in an argument will say their own statement must therefore be right. I would respect another person submitting evidence, but not when they proclaim their evidence counters my statement without convincing me.

When I start a thread, I aim to present evidence and let readers decide for themselves. What usually happens is that the other side submits something and then says that my sources are incorrect. I don't want to say the opposite side of an argument is incorrect, but I feel I have to when they undermine my side.

I am guilty of doing this as well, so this is hypocritical of me to complain. I would like to get the opposite side's perspective on the matter, but when it seeks more to undermine my evidence... I won't respect an opinion more if it says 'Could it also be this?' rather than 'I'm right/You're wrong'

Last edited by Darth_Yuthura; 06-13-2009 at 10:38 AM.
Darth_Yuthura is offline   you may:
Old 06-13-2009, 10:58 AM   #42
igyman
Tension!
 
igyman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: White City
Posts: 3,413
Current Game: Diablo III RoS (PC)
Forum Veteran Helpful! Contest winner - Fan Fiction 
I have to agree with Jae - lying is a very specific verb. The example that you mentioned - a person who offers a counter-opinion without immediately explaining how they formed that opinion isn't lying. You can question the value of their argument, but you can't accuse them of lying. Also, sometimes the explanation a person offers for their opinion simply doesn't satisfy our own requirements, in which case you either ask that person to clarify the confusing part, or you simply agree to disagree.

Now, when it comes to the main question of this thread - sanctions for lying and to which extent should they go (if at all) - I think it depends on the nature of the lie.

For example, (this actually happened very recently on another forum) a member posts art in the art section of the forum, but he lies about him being the author of said art. Other members who have already seen said art somewhere on the net begin to suspect something, some outright accuse him, others ask in a more refined manner about some details, others find actual evidence that the art isn't his and provide links. In the end the thread is locked and deleted and the offending member was (as far as I know) punished (most likely banned, but I can't say for certain). Now, while this isn't the best way for members to behave (I personally think it would have been more civilized to report the thread to a mod and present evidence directly to them, instead posting them in said thread), the infraction was handled (and it definitely should have been handled) and the offending member got even more than he deserved - he was exposed in his own thread, which undoubtedly caused some humiliation and hopefully that person won't repeat the deed again.

In conclusion, yeah, some forms of lying should be sanctioned, but the trick is in recognizing them.

igyman is offline   you may:
Old 06-13-2009, 11:10 AM   #43
EnderWiggin
Sine Amore Nihil Est Vita
 
EnderWiggin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 3,395
Forum Veteran LF Jester 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth_Yuthura View Post
That is not what I am suggesting. Anyone who 'disproves' a source without offering an effective counter argument and proclaim that they are right is lying. Or at the very least, that person supplants the opposite side by pouring sand into their argument and offering nothing of value to the debate.

I'm not one to easily change my opinion, but only because I make one based on a solid foundation of proof. When I don't have that much proof to go on, my opinion is very flexible to change, and I don't put much value in that belief. If I did, I would be lying.
What are you hoping to accomplish with this thread, besides making a large scene?

If you could tell us, then perhaps we could work towards a resolution (or at least an end) and you could get off your high horse?

Seems like a soapbox instead of a discussion thread.

_EW_



Hello, Pot? This is Kettle. You're black. ~ Prime

Yes, I hate you.

J7 - thanks for accepting me as part of the 'family.'
EnderWiggin is offline   you may:
Old 06-13-2009, 11:54 AM   #44
Darth_Yuthura
Banned
 
Status: Banned
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Vienna
Posts: 1,585
Current Game: KOTOR III
Quote: Igyman: The example that you mentioned - a person who offers a counter-opinion without immediately explaining how they formed that opinion isn't lying. You can question the value of their argument, but you can't accuse them of lying.


If a person offers a counter opinion to mine, there is nothing wrong with that. If proof is requested and they don't present a compelling counter argument, then it just goes to the credibility of their case. If I'm the only one who doesn't agree with that, then the way I respond goes to my credibility.

If people are convinced that the opposite side is right, then they clearly made a better case than I did. If the opposite side did nothing more than attack my credibility by creating a circular argument, I would consider that a personal offense because it was not backed by anything of intellectual value.

Example: It's clear you have no idea what you're talking about
Example: If you actually were there, you would see it's different from what you get in a book. It's obvious that you've never been to ******, so there's no point in you trying to argue.
Example: Given as you are wrong here, then you could be wrong about ****.

Both of these have actually been thrown at me before and they were insulting because they weren't true.

Last edited by Darth_Yuthura; 06-13-2009 at 04:00 PM.
Darth_Yuthura is offline   you may:
Old 06-13-2009, 01:26 PM   #45
igyman
Tension!
 
igyman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: White City
Posts: 3,413
Current Game: Diablo III RoS (PC)
Forum Veteran Helpful! Contest winner - Fan Fiction 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth_Yuthura View Post
I think that a person is lying if they create a circular argument, or one meant to discredit the person on the opposite side.
A circular argument is a logical fallacy and you can definitely argue its validity, but I still don't think you can consider it lying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth_Yuthura View Post
Example: It's clear you have no idea what you're talking about
An argument of this type, without any further elaboration as to why someone has no idea what they're talking about is obviously an argument of practically no value and as such shouldn't even be commented on, IMO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth_Yuthura View Post
Example: If you actually were there, you would see it's different from what you get in a book. It's obvious that you've never been to ******, so there's no point in you trying to argue.
When someone offers this kind of argument, it's pretty obvious that they are taking the topic at hand very personally and because they've been in that type of situation, or live/have lived in a particular place, or whatever, they are convinced to know more on the subject than someone else (and are right in a lot of cases). I know because I've used this kind of argument at least once in a very emotional topic for me. I'm still convinced I was right, but I realize that it wasn't the best way to present my case. First hand experience should count a lot IMO, but it doesn't seem to for some reason.

igyman is offline   you may:
Old 06-13-2009, 02:24 PM   #46
Darth_Yuthura
Banned
 
Status: Banned
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Vienna
Posts: 1,585
Current Game: KOTOR III
Maybe. I know a certain professor who lives in Milwaukee (an urban geography professor) who I would trust to know his field. The problem is that I can't exactly call on him as a source and expect people on a forum to take my word for it, as I could very well have even gotten his logic wrong. Not to mention that no one else on this forum knows this guy, but I could point to something he's published.

And being first person to something holds a higher level of value than second-hand evidence, but the conflict I often encounter is really how much of the debate that person really participated in. Someone could have been in the military for 10 years, but that doesn't mean that they fully understand what escalated the conflict they were in. If they were a witness to an event, they can talk about their experiences and what they've done, but if they debate on a subject that they didn't participate in directly, they can't use themselves as a first-person source in that regard.

That's where first-person sources get difficult to debate.
Darth_Yuthura is offline   you may:
Old 06-13-2009, 02:31 PM   #47
CommanderQ
I should go.
 
CommanderQ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: California
Posts: 2,630
Current Game: Mass Effect
Forum Veteran Roleplayer Contest winner - Fan Fiction 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth_Yuthura View Post
Maybe. I know a certain professor who lives in Milwaukee (an urban geography professor) who I would trust to know his field. The problem is that I can't exactly call on him as a source and expect people on a forum to take my word for it, as I could very well have even gotten his logic wrong. Not to mention that no one else on this forum knows this guy, but I could point to something he's published.

And being first person to something holds a higher level of value than second-hand evidence, but the conflict I often encounter is really how much of the debate that person really participated in. Someone could have been in the military for 10 years, but that doesn't mean that they fully understand what escalated the conflict they were in. If they were a witness to an event, they can talk about their experiences and what they've done, but if they debate on a subject that they didn't participate in directly, they can't use themselves as a first-person source in that regard.

That's where first-person sources get difficult to debate.
Well, first person accounts can be accurate, but on the internet, it would be difficult to prove. Unless the person giving the account is extremely trusted {which is slightly hard to find online}.

But also, first person accounts are influenced by that person's point-of-view and opinion, and that in itself can deteriorate the validity of their statement.


you very much
If a tree would fall in the woods.....would the other trees laugh at it?
CommanderQ is offline   you may:
Old 06-13-2009, 03:09 PM   #48
EnderWiggin
Sine Amore Nihil Est Vita
 
EnderWiggin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 3,395
Forum Veteran LF Jester 
Why did you quote my post and then choose to ignore it?

Either quote it and reply, or just ignore me altogether. The half-and-half thing you're doing is odd.

_EW_



Hello, Pot? This is Kettle. You're black. ~ Prime

Yes, I hate you.

J7 - thanks for accepting me as part of the 'family.'
EnderWiggin is offline   you may:
Post a new thread. Sorry, this thread is closed. Indicate all threads in this forum as read. Subscribe to this forum. RSS feed: this forum RSS feed: all forums
Go Back   LucasForums > Network > Knights of the Old Republic > Community > Kavar's Corner > Lying and Implications on a Forum

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:13 AM.

LFNetwork, LLC ©2002-2011 - All rights reserved.
Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.