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Old 04-09-2009, 08:34 PM   #1
Lord of Hunger
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Kreia's Credibility vs. Old Jedi Order Credibility

A few weeks ago I resurrected a thread called "The Sith'ari" in order to argue that Revan was indeed the fulfillment of the Sith'ari prophecy. Part of my argument was that Revan had never truly fallen to the "Dark Side of the Force" and cited Kreia/Darth Traya as part of my evidence of such. My opponents countered this point by attempting to dispute Kreia's credibility as a judge of Revan's character. While there were some interesting arguments regarding this, eventually they discontinued this debate for various reasons, and so did I.

However, I recently pondered this aspect of the debate and found it interesting that while I touched upon the credibility of the Jedi Order I never really explore this point. I'd like to do so now because it will be an important indicator of the Old Jedi Order's true character as an effective instrument of good, an ineffective yet well-meaning instrument of good, an ineffective and unwilling instrument of good, or perhaps even an inefficient organization that makes a false claim to being good.

I begin with Kreia's statement "There is a difference between a sacrifice and a fall." My opponents support the notion that the Jedi Council perpetuates in KOTOR1 that Revan and Malak fell to the Dark Side during the Mandalorian Wars. Now in the case of Kreia's ability to assess what is a sacrifice and a fall, she has certainly experienced her own fall to the Dark Side (becoming Darth Traya) and her sacrifices (her hand, normal sight, even life). Now, what sacrifices and falls have the Jedi Council members experienced? In KOTOR 1, we had no indication that the Council members were fighting on the front lines against Revan's Sith. In fact all they seemed to be doing was standing around in the Jedi Enclave talking. Not only were they not actively assisting Republic soldiers against the Dark Jedi and Sith Acolytes under Revan and Malak's command, they were not even resolve simpler issues such as the Mandalorian Raiders, the Matale-Sandral conflict, Kath Hound infestation (which, arguably, was not entirely Juhani's doing), and other such conflicts. These problems were only solved by Revan. Now, an interesting point to note is that the Jedi Council often recommends not running into situations yet it seems that when Revan/the Player or Luke or Qui-Gon or others run into situations those situations tend to get fixed, don't they?

Now, the Jedi Council were forced to abandon this comfortable position when Malak bombed Dantooine and again the Sith Triumvirate initiated the First Jedi Purge. What did they do then? Vrook, to his credibility, went back to Dantooine to help stop Azkul's mercenaries. Not much, but something. Zez-Kia Ell, however, hid on Nar Shaddaa. Despite being the most accepting of the Exile's decision to go to war and urging responsibility, he chooses inaction and cowardice. Atris hid on Telos and manipulated others, as well as foolishly exposing herself to the unholy influence of Sith holocrons. Vash goes off to Korriban...and gets killed. I wish M4-78 was TSL canon, because at least she does some good there. Kavar proves himself somewhat useful by becoming Talia's bodyguard, but you'd expect that he could have done a better job all those years of discovering the Sith influence of Dxun and preventing Vaklu from initiating the Onderon Civil War. Dorak, Zhar, and Vandar run off to Katarr to consult the Miraluka and get killed. Useless. A lot of this is actually not a lack of sacrifice but simple incompetence, however it does show that they lack much of the experience that Revan, Kreia, and the Exile (all of which are individuals demonized by them) have.

It is also worth noting that rather than experience the "Dark Side" and common life themselves, they often send Padawans to do so. These Padawan are often unprepared and easily fall or find themselves incapable. An interest occurrence Master Quatra tricking Juhani into falling to the Dark Side. The only individual who evolved from the experience was Revan, who got to improve his redemption "skillz" . Juhani became not only no more resistant to her inner anger but less. She had less self-confidence and wound up being a training program for Revan's Redemption of Cathar Jedi 101 course. Quatra, meanwhile, was simply wounded. At least here, however, is an example of a sacrifice (Quatra's injuries), however it did not serve to help anyone evolve. Kreia's sacrifices often helped evolve her own wisdom and by extension to Exile's, and protected the Exile from harm.

Now, there is the argument that Kreia cannot be trusted because she lies and manipulates. First of all, there is a difference between lying and omitting information, and the latter was more often the case. She omits her being Darth Traya formerly to the Exile in order to keep the Exile's trust and guide her towards the necessary actions needed. Second, what did her lies result in? The Defeat and Destruction of her own Sith Triumvirate, the restoration of the Exile's Force Sensitivity and power, and by extension the restoration of the Jedi Order. Third, who does she lie to and manipulates? Colonel Tobin is an example of the many ***holes that she lies to, and this example results in the destruction of Darth Nihilus, the single most powerful and most dangerous Force Sensitive in Star Wars history. She manipulates Atton, which results in him protecting the Exile and eventually coming to terms with his personal demons and redeeming himself. She prevents Mical from discovering the Triumvirate's greater evil in order to keep Crew's course set. Ultimately these problems are resolved.

Meanwhile, Atris and Kavar manipulate the Exile themselves, using her as bait for Darth Nihilus and the Sith Assassins. The Council (reunited on Dantooine) glance at the Exile's nature and condemn her as another Darth Nihilus and attempt to remove her connection to the Force. Their credibility here, IMO, is as good as Kreia's, if not worse.

This is all for now. I'll respond to posters and add more to this.

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Old 04-10-2009, 04:35 PM   #2
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Actually, M4-78 is canon. It just wasn't in the game.

Moving on. I'd say the Exile is closer to Sith'ari than Revan. Her actions led to the death of the Jedi and Sith. She rebuilt the Jedi Order and as Kreia says 'Jedi beget Sith. Sith beget Jedi. It is the way of things.'

The Sith'ari needs to destroy the Sith and then remake them. The Exile did destroy the Sith and the Jedi(through Kreia for the Jedi). She rebuilt the Jedi Order and new Sith would arise in response to the new Jedi. Revan only destroys the Sith if he is light. If he goes dark, then he just takes control back of his forces.
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Old 04-10-2009, 05:40 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by ShinDangaioh View Post
Actually, M4-78 is canon. It just wasn't in the game.

Moving on. I'd say the Exile is closer to Sith'ari than Revan. Her actions led to the death of the Jedi and Sith. She rebuilt the Jedi Order and as Kreia says 'Jedi beget Sith. Sith beget Jedi. It is the way of things.'

The Sith'ari needs to destroy the Sith and then remake them. The Exile did destroy the Sith and the Jedi(through Kreia for the Jedi). She rebuilt the Jedi Order and new Sith would arise in response to the new Jedi. Revan only destroys the Sith if he is light. If he goes dark, then he just takes control back of his forces.
This post reminds me of something - Does the "Sith'ari" prophecy actually state that the Sith'ari has to be a Sith? If not, then that adds quite a few more people into Sith'ari candidacy.


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Old 04-10-2009, 06:10 PM   #4
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@ TKA-001: That is actually a very good question. I'd certainly add Luke Skywalker if such was the case. He destroys the Sith (Bane's Order and Lumiya's spin-off), which results in a stronger version (Krayt's order) appearing. He doesn't have much in the way of restrictions either.

@ ShinDangaioh: I disagree only because whereas cannon Exile destroys one incarnation of the Sith (the Triumvirate), cannon Revan destroys his Sith and by the historical impact of his teachings and actions creates and destroys several other Sith orders. The difference between the two is who has a direct hand in destroying the Sith. Also, DS Revan is non-cannon (provided you believe that Revan was LS or DS).


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Old 04-12-2009, 05:41 PM   #5
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@ ShinDangaioh: I disagree only because whereas cannon Exile destroys one incarnation of the Sith (the Triumvirate), cannon Revan destroys his Sith and by the historical impact of his teachings and actions creates and destroys several other Sith orders. The difference between the two is who has a direct hand in destroying the Sith. Also, DS Revan is non-cannon (provided you believe that Revan was LS or DS).
04-10-2009 04:40 PM
Technically Revan doesn't destroy his sith order. It's true he took out the head of (his former) sith empire in Malak at the Battle of the Star Forge. The battle was a victory for the republic and even if all the sith on the star forge,Lehon and the sith fleet were killed that doesn't take into the account the various other sith spread across of the soon to be crippling empire at location such as the Trayus Academy,Taris,various sith fleets,etc.

Next as we know was the sith civil war where sith factions fought each other for power until united under the Sith Triumvirate. Personally I don't see them as a separate order(sort of like the relationship between the Galactic Empire and the Imperial Remnant or sort of like the roman republic under the "rule" of the First Triumvirate but Im not a history expert so i dont know the specifics there), rather being the remains of JCW Sith Empire with 3 leaders continuing the fight but making it a shadow war against the jedi. Their core teachings/philosophy (Ex. Kaan's brotherhood and the Rule of Two or from RoT to the One Sith) had little time to change (if they even tried to) or take impact on the remaining sith (some which must have already been trained at Malachor.) Because when I think of the sith order being destroyed and through their destruction they become stronger, (as the sithari is suppose to do) I think there has to a new philosophy/core value change otherwise why change it at all other to put yourself in power which really isnt destroying the order.

I don't see the sithari being one who destroys by a series event that he had no way of predicting the outcome of and not to mention he wasn't around to see them unfold. Then we know have to take into the fact the True Sith/Ancient Sith Empire have been around for a 1000 years and I doubt they werent already slowly gaining power before Revan killed Malak so unless their isnt a major curveball thrown in the mmo, Revan didn't directly influence them(or even indirectly as of now) as they slowly got their forces ready to invade the republic. Anakin Skywalker who we know is the chosen one, directly destroyed the sith, by being redeemed and "killing Palpatine. Bane another likely candidate took what he learned formed his own idea for the how the sith should be and took direct action(giving Kaan the thought bomb) that led Kaan killing himself and the surviving Brotherhood members.

And if I recall correctly, Sithari, in the sith language means something like "overlord" which doesn't sound like a title associated with a lightsider or Luke. Especially given the language it comes from.
Sorry for going off topic. But I wanted throw my opinion out there on the topic.
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Old 05-13-2009, 03:36 AM   #6
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A pox on both houses. Both were right AND both were wrong. It gets into that "certain point of view" crap , and is a much better application of the phrase than Obi-Wan managed.

The Jedi Order was cowardly and fossilized, unable to walk outside their gates and their philosophy to confront the realities of life. Exar Kun shocked them so badly that they cowered in fear (though they hadn't the balls to call it such) of anything they could not directly control, of anything outside the Order's Ivory-tower teachings. They boated a good deal about being the Republic's defenders, but did nothing while millions died from Mandalore's scourge. The raiders on Dantooine are a smaller-scale version of this. So terrified they were of what they could not control that they stole their recruits from the cradle, cut them off from any competing passions like a jealous lover and allowed them little to no say in the matter. The beautiful, powerful, and brittle Bastila is the finest example of what they could craft. Worse, this mentality of "control it or crush it" led to crap like the Jedi Covenant, the mental rape of Revan, and how they repay the LS Exile's help by trying to kill her!

Kreia was a fanatic. A Bene Gesserit who misplaced her Gom Jabbar in the last universe and hell bent on proving her theories right, no matter what got wrecked in the process. She refused the possibility of being dead wrong. Kreia snaps that she sees no victory in the destruction of all life if the Force is destroyed, but will not even consider the possibility that destroying the Force could theoretically do that She casually mind-rapes three members of Exile's crew to keep them quiet or compliant. Her ultimate goal was to stand before the whole gorram universe and say "I TOLD YOU SO!" As such, she runs a big danger in dismissing or belittling things that don't fit her theory or her plans, and her hatred of the Force fossilizes her in her own right. She constantly underestimates members of Exile's crew, and shrugs off what doesn't fit into her worldview. To her credit, though, she plays Xanatos Speed Chess just as well as Palpatine with fewer resources open to her.

My take on it? Hell, yes, Revan fell. Vrook was right in saying the corruption started well before the Mandalorian Wars. Remember that Revan was shaped and molded by Kreia, her first and last master. Now, being cut adrift from the Order, facing the hell of war with the Mando'a, and discovering Trayus's goldmine of chaos, Revan concludes Kreia was right all along - as long as there is the Force, as long as it has a will and is split into Light and Dark, there will be war. I know that the Old Republic game coming up will deal with the "true Sith," but I don't buy that. Based on what I can find, including some statements from Kreia, Ajunta Pall, and Yuthura Ban, the True Sith isn't really an empire. It's not people and machines of war. The True Sith is a belief, the heresey you can split the Force into Light and Dark and have one side reign supreme. You can kill the people who hold a belief, but beliefs themselves don't die so easily.

So, here begins the War to End All Wars. Break the Force, destroy the very thing the saber-swingers fight over. Convert or kill the force users, tilt the balance too far in one direction, and wound the Force enough to finish it off . Sure, every Force Sensitive is gonna die, Revan included, but the ones who are deaf to the Force will survive and prosper. No more "demigods," no more "wizards" and Force supersition, no more destiny as determined by the Force...a golden age of rationality, science, and brutal meritocracy led by men like Saul Karath over a mostly-intact infrastructure. (Yes, this is heavily inspired by both Kreia's rantings and by reading Star Wars on Trial)

It was a fall to the Dark Side AND a sacrifice - if it worked, Revan would not be alive to see the Brave New Galaxy, after all.

Unfortunately, the Force hit back hard in the form of Malak getting a bright idea to blast Revan's ship. It saved the Force, those who are sensitive to it...maybe even all life in the galaxy, but the GFFA is still condemned to its constant Light vs Dark warfare the Force uses to keep itself alive.


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Old 05-13-2009, 09:27 AM   #7
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So terrified they were of what they could not control that they stole their recruits from the cradle
"Jedi steal babies, I'm not lying here. Please ignore the fact that I cannot produce a single canonical example of this occurrence."

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Worse, this mentality of "control it or crush it" led to crap like the Jedi Covenant
You'll get no argument from me if you say the Covenant was crazy, but they are not representative of the Jedi Order as a whole.

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the mental rape of Revan
Stupid Good Alignment: "Stop picking on those poor, defenseless hellspawn!"

What reason did the Jedi have to let Revan off easy? Or should they have just killed him instead or imprisoned him forever? Revan before his capture was almost as evil as Palpatine was (I only say almost because Palpatine accomplished a lot more than Revan ever did). After, he turned back into a morally normal human being, who ended up stopping the Sith Empire that he brought about.

Basically, the Jedi Council turned that century's Darth Sidious into that century's Luke Skywalker. Yeah, that's a horrendous crime on their part.

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and how they repay the LS Exile's help by trying to kill her!
We can't be playing the same game. The Jedi Masters do not attempt to kill the Exile in the light side path. The above quote is an absolute lie.

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Revan concludes Kreia was right all along - as long as there is the Force, as long as it has a will and is split into Light and Dark, there will be war. I know that the Old Republic game coming up will deal with the "true Sith," but I don't buy that. Based on what I can find, including some statements from Kreia, Ajunta Pall, and Yuthura Ban, the True Sith isn't really an empire. It's not people and machines of war. The True Sith is a belief, the heresey you can split the Force into Light and Dark and have one side reign supreme. You can kill the people who hold a belief, but beliefs themselves don't die so easily.
"I say that the True Sith isn't an Empire; it's one side of an eternal war that never ends and that light and dark always cause each other. I know that a canonical source that was recently released blows this 'no True Sith Empire' theory out of the water, but I'm going to ignore it in order to defend my idea despite the fact that it has been officially overruled by the canon."

I'm afraid you can't pick and choose what EU sources apply when talking about EU. And if the True Sith is not a tangible, physical Empire, then where the **** did Revan go and why? What the **** did Darth Traya mean when she said "the True Sith Empire rules elsewhere" and that Revan went off to fight it?

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Sure, every Force Sensitive is gonna die, Revan included, but the ones who are deaf to the Force will survive and prosper. No more "demigods," no more "wizards" and Force supersition, no more destiny as determined by the Force...a golden age of rationality, science, and brutal meritocracy led by men like Saul Karath over a mostly-intact infrastructure.
"The Force is an energy field that binds all living things together, it is present in all living things."

In order words, you kill the Force, you kill everything. Not going to work. The Force is everywhere, and only a wound, like the Exile or Nihilus (who are the only living Force wounds) might not be affected.

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Unfortunately, the Force hit back hard in the form of Malak getting a bright idea to blast Revan's ship. It saved the Force, those who are sensitive to it...maybe even all life in the galaxy, but the GFFA is still condemned to its constant Light vs Dark warfare the Force uses to keep itself alive.
The Force isn't god. It's an energy field. "Destiny" is just a word for the fact that the writer of a story doesn't write the story so that everything is completely random.

I don't know where you got the idea that Kreia's "the Force is an evil god" interpretation is in any way true, but I've yet to see a more excessively cynical, perverse, or downright ludicrous view of Star Wars.


"There is something going on in time and space, and beyond time and space, which, whether we like it or not, spells duty." -Winston Churchill

"For of all sad words of tongue or pen, The saddest are these: 'It might have been!'" -John Whittier

"Apathy is death." -Kreia

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Old 05-13-2009, 05:02 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by TKA-001 View Post
"Jedi steal babies, I'm not lying here. Please ignore the fact that I cannot produce a single canonical example of this occurrence."
Canonical example provided.

It also stated in the Hero's Guide that when the Jedi reestablished contact with the Zeison Sha, that they took some of the Zeison Sha children with them - without the Zeison Sha's consent. This pretty much destroyed any hope the Jedi had of reconciling with their estranged cousins, and it's not like I blame them.

Yes, they usually required parental consent, but so did the Psi Corps. Being such a powerful organization, I'd imagine it would be very hard for a parent to tell them "no" if they showed up on the doorstep, demanding their offspring. That, and I can't recall a case in GFFA where the parents told them "no" and stood by it.

Maybe "steal" is an overly harsh word, but it's one thing to swear to such a life if you know what you're getting into. It's quite another to take them from their families, cut them off from any semblance of life outside the Order, discourage friendships, forbid any love except love of the Order, discourage any emotion save hatred of the Dark Side, and throw lightsabers into the hands of children to send them into battle. Ruusan was a bad example of this, but the Clone Wars took it to a new level of low with 13-year old Padawans commanding armies of 10-year-old Mando'a slaves.

I will admit my view on the Jedi is colored heavily by what I've seen of similar organizations in other universes - Azarath of the DCU, the Ol-Zhaan of Green Sky, the Psi Corps of B5...I know that the first two meant well, too. The first was trying to purge all evil from themselves in order to destroy a powerful demon, and to keep the offspring of that demon from causing mayhem. The Ol-Zhaan was set up to keep the dangerous history of violence and shame secret so the rest of the society could enjoy their placid utopia.


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You'll get no argument from me if you say the Covenant was crazy, but they are not representative of the Jedi Order as a whole.
The Covenant took a prevailing belief as spoken by Vrook in K1:

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If you find me overly critical, perhaps it is because you do not fully understand what is at stake. For fifteen thousand years the Republic has brought peace and stability to the galaxy. Now the Republic may be destroyed because we, the Jedi, have failed them. Revan and Malak were paragons of the ideals the Order seeks to uphold, yet they succumbed to the temptations of the dark side. When Revan fell, Malak took up the mantle of Dark Lord of the Sith. Should Malak be stopped, what is to stop another Jedi from taking his place? This is the burden we Masters must carry.

Only through strict training and relentless lessons can we prevent the Dark Master from being reborn. That is why the Order can brook no failure in our apprentices and pupils. That is why I can accept nothing but perfection from you.
And took it to the nastiest extreme possible. They would have gotten away clean, too, if Zayne hadn't had his "strange luck" Force ability.

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Stupid Good Alignment: "Stop picking on those poor, defenseless hellspawn!"
Just because Revan was evil didn't make it right, and the problem with the tactic is that it has a really bad tendency to backfire. In fact, DS Revan is a great example of this.

Another example from another universe. Dr Light, already a dyed-in-the-wool supervillain, broke into JLA headquarters and raped Sue Dibny. Upon his capture, he boasted to the JLA that he knew their secret IDs, could just as easily get in their base again, and would do to their families what he'd just done to Sue.

The JLA had a problem, so a quick vote was taken, and it decided by a 4-3 margin to alter Dr. Light so he was no longer a major threat. He was still a villain, but he was something of a joke.

Until he recovered his memories. Then, all hell broke loose. Now, word's out among the supervillains that the JLA can and will do this to them, and it made them much less willing to be captured and more willing to resort to desperate and dangerous measures.

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We can't be playing the same game. The Jedi Masters do not attempt to kill the Exile in the light side path. The above quote is an absolute lie.
They say they're going to strip the Force from the Exile, true. Yet, when Kreia reverses the process ("Now see it through the eyes of the Exile"), it kills the Masters. That made me think that what they were doing was likely to be lethal.

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I'm afraid you can't pick and choose what EU sources apply when talking about EU.
Even pro writers at Lucasarts do this all the time. This is how Vergere got retconned into a Sith and where the theory that Palpatine was pulling a Revan and consolidating the universe to fight the Vong kicks in.

And where I got the idea about the True Sith not being a physical Empire was a couple lines from Kreia. She belittled the idea that the machines of war and the people who fought with them were Sith, stating that the Sith were a belief. The other was the loading screen of K1, stating that the True Sith died out (they were referring to the race), but that the Sith were followers of an ideal.

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And if the True Sith is not a tangible, physical Empire, then where the **** did Revan go and why?
There are archives like Trayus and keepers of those archives like Kreia. In destroying those, it's a way to beat back their influence. You can no more destroy them permanently than you can keep dandelions from growing in your lawn, but you can hold them back as long as you can.

It's also possible that Revan is repairing some of those wounds in the Force created during his/her rampage as well.

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In order words, you kill the Force, you kill everything. Not going to work. The Force is everywhere, and only a wound, like the Exile or Nihilus (who are the only living Force wounds) might not be affected.
Or the Vong, depending on what source you read. Yes, I agree with the idea that if you wreck the Force, you kill everything. Kreia and Revan made a gross miscalculation, IMO. Revan may have come around to the conclusion s/he was wrong and went off to fix it, but Kreia stuck to her guns until the bitter end.

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I don't know where you got the idea that Kreia's "the Force is an evil god" interpretation is in any way true, but I've yet to see a more excessively cynical, perverse, or downright ludicrous view of Star Wars.
I'm a heretic and fully admit it. Han shot first, Revan's a girl, Exile's a man, etc.

In every incarnation of SW, there is this battle between Jedi and Sith, Light and Dark. The more it tilts in one direction or another, the nastier the backlash (Ruusan thought bomb, Order 66) when the Force rights itself. Yet, nothing is solved. The conflict never ends. Every few centuries, the Force users tear themselves to bits for no apparent gain and no true victor. Why? That's why I suspect a nugget of truth in the old hag's ranting.


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Old 05-13-2009, 07:29 PM   #9
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Wow, someone actually posted!
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Originally Posted by Darth Hord
Technically Revan doesn't destroy his sith order. It's true he took out the head of (his former) sith empire in Malak at the Battle of the Star Forge. The battle was a victory for the republic and even if all the sith on the star forge,Lehon and the sith fleet were killed that doesn't take into the account the various other sith spread across of the soon to be crippling empire at location such as the Trayus Academy,Taris,various sith fleets,etc.
That one signal battle obviously had great repercussions: It fractured the Sith Empire, but left the Republic without a tool that would have actually restored it. Yes, I know that the Star Forge's nature is corrupting, but one day of its use at maximum output would have produced enough resources to restart its economy if you think about it.
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Next as we know was the sith civil war where sith factions fought each other for power until united under the Sith Triumvirate. Personally I don't see them as a separate order(sort of like the relationship between the Galactic Empire and the Imperial Remnant or sort of like the roman republic under the "rule" of the First Triumvirate but Im not a history expert so i dont know the specifics there), rather being the remains of JCW Sith Empire with 3 leaders continuing the fight but making it a shadow war against the jedi. Their core teachings/philosophy (Ex. Kaan's brotherhood and the Rule of Two or from RoT to the One Sith) had little time to change (if they even tried to) or take impact on the remaining sith (some which must have already been trained at Malachor.) Because when I think of the sith order being destroyed and through their destruction they become stronger, (as the sithari is suppose to do) I think there has to a new philosophy/core value change otherwise why change it at all other to put yourself in power which really isnt destroying the order.
The Sith Triumvirate was actually very different. How? Force Vampires and the teachings of Force Vampiricy. What the students of Malachor under the Triumvirate has never been done before or after, and was lethal beyond measure. Even Kreia realized that the Galaxy was doomed if even one being close to Nihilus' nature lived on. The Exile is somewhat similar but whereas Nihilus was an aggressive vampire she was passive and therefore not so much a threat.
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Originally Posted by Allronix
A pox on both houses. Both were right AND both were wrong. It gets into that "certain point of view" crap , and is a much better application of the phrase than Obi-Wan managed.
Alrighty then....
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The Jedi Order was cowardly and fossilized, unable to walk outside their gates and their philosophy to confront the realities of life. Exar Kun shocked them so badly that they cowered in fear (though they hadn't the balls to call it such) of anything they could not directly control, of anything outside the Order's Ivory-tower teachings. They boated a good deal about being the Republic's defenders, but did nothing while millions died from Mandalore's scourge. The raiders on Dantooine are a smaller-scale version of this. So terrified they were of what they could not control that they stole their recruits from the cradle, cut them off from any competing passions like a jealous lover and allowed them little to no say in the matter. The beautiful, powerful, and brittle Bastila is the finest example of what they could craft. Worse, this mentality of "control it or crush it" led to crap like the Jedi Covenant, the mental rape of Revan, and how they repay the LS Exile's help by trying to kill her!
I read this and the only part I disagree with is that they wanted to kill the Exile. What they wanted to do is worse than death: to take away the sum of her evolution and experience.
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Kreia was a fanatic. A Bene Gesserit who misplaced her Gom Jabbar in the last universe and hell bent on proving her theories right, no matter what got wrecked in the process. She refused the possibility of being dead wrong. Kreia snaps that she sees no victory in the destruction of all life if the Force is destroyed, but will not even consider the possibility that destroying the Force could theoretically do that
I'm not sure she didn't. From what I've observed, worlds affected by Force Wounds and Echoes don't die, but they do get pretty freaky.
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She casually mind-rapes three members of Exile's crew to keep them quiet or compliant. Her ultimate goal was to stand before the whole gorram universe and say "I TOLD YOU SO!" As such, she runs a big danger in dismissing or belittling things that don't fit her theory or her plans, and her hatred of the Force fossilizes her in her own right. She constantly underestimates members of Exile's crew, and shrugs off what doesn't fit into her worldview. To her credit, though, she plays Xanatos Speed Chess just as well as Palpatine with fewer resources open to her.
She does have a tendency to underestimate the Party Members. I would however note that the one person she does mental rape that doesn't deserve it is Mical. Atton had a lot of bad baggage and he actually does benefit from Kreia putting him in the position to deal with it (by being around a curious Exile). Colonel Tobin betrayed his country to a dangerous, overpowered Force Vampire, and he is used to lure that Vampire to its demise.
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My take on it? Hell, yes, Revan fell. Vrook was right in saying the corruption started well before the Mandalorian Wars. Remember that Revan was shaped and molded by Kreia, her first and last master. Now, being cut adrift from the Order, facing the hell of war with the Mando'a, and discovering Trayus's goldmine of chaos, Revan concludes Kreia was right all along - as long as there is the Force, as long as it has a will and is split into Light and Dark, there will be war. I know that the Old Republic game coming up will deal with the "true Sith," but I don't buy that. Based on what I can find, including some statements from Kreia, Ajunta Pall, and Yuthura Ban, the True Sith isn't really an empire. It's not people and machines of war. The True Sith is a belief, the heresey you can split the Force into Light and Dark and have one side reign supreme. You can kill the people who hold a belief, but beliefs themselves don't die so easily.
1) The True Sith Empire does make sense, I sincerely doubt that the Ancient Sith could be destroyed so easily.
2) Aside from the bombardment of Telos IV, what did Revan do that was so evil? Declare war on the most corrupt and incompetent government in the GFFA? Leave an army that had no true capacity for war until he gave it that capacity? Fight a decadent monastic order ruled by men and women who are in every way complicit with the slaughter committed by the Mandalorian Wars? Create a stable and efficient political, social, and economic machine?
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So, here begins the War to End All Wars. Break the Force, destroy the very thing the saber-swingers fight over. Convert or kill the force users, tilt the balance too far in one direction, and wound the Force enough to finish it off . Sure, every Force Sensitive is gonna die, Revan included, but the ones who are deaf to the Force will survive and prosper. No more "demigods," no more "wizards" and Force supersition, no more destiny as determined by the Force...a golden age of rationality, science, and brutal meritocracy led by men like Saul Karath over a mostly-intact infrastructure. (Yes, this is heavily inspired by both Kreia's rantings and by reading Star Wars on Trial)
Revan had no desire to destroy the Force that we know of. Kreia created the Insidious Force teaching when she was kicked out of the Triumvirate. All he wanted to do was replace the Galactic Republic with a government that the Galaxy needed, deserved, and could actually protect them.
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It was a fall to the Dark Side AND a sacrifice - if it worked, Revan would not be alive to see the Brave New Galaxy, after all.

Unfortunately, the Force hit back hard in the form of Malak getting a bright idea to blast Revan's ship. It saved the Force, those who are sensitive to it...maybe even all life in the galaxy, but the GFFA is still condemned to its constant Light vs Dark warfare the Force uses to keep itself alive.
Malak essentially is responsible not only for the slaughter under his rule but under the True Sith Empire since if he had not done so, Revan would have replaced the Republic with his Empire and invaded the Unknown Regions.
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Originally Posted by TKA-001
You'll get no argument from me if you say the Covenant was crazy, but they are not representative of the Jedi Order as a whole.
Why? They will go at any lengths to kill those perceived as Sith. Considering that the Jedi Council was unwilling to stop the genocide on Cathar but perfectly willing to declare war on and demonize Revan's Empire, I'd say it's a pretty good representation of what the Jedi are: fanatics like the Sith who want the other guy dead.
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What reason did the Jedi have to let Revan off easy? Or should they have just killed him instead or imprisoned him forever? Revan before his capture was almost as evil as Palpatine was (I only say almost because Palpatine accomplished a lot more than Revan ever did). After, he turned back into a morally normal human being, who ended up stopping the Sith Empire that he brought about.

Basically, the Jedi Council turned that century's Darth Sidious into that century's Luke Skywalker. Yeah, that's a horrendous crime on their part.
Again, what did Revan do that was evil? He saved the Galaxy from the Mandalorians. He declared war on a lazy, incompetent oligarchy cloaked with the word "democracy". The Jedi Council takes him and turns him (canonically) into their pawn.

As for his methods, which you have opposed in the past in other posts, his tactics have been used in real life by both the Allies and Axis in WWII (the whole thing of not protecting one village so that five others may be saved). It's called war, and hell, it's been done throughout our entire history. It's not a war crime, it's the successful execution of war.

If Darth Revan is an evil overlord, then when he was sent the evil overlord's manual he accidentally got the divine Messiah's manual instead.


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Old 05-13-2009, 09:05 PM   #10
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The stealing of children is why the Zeison Sha on the planet Yanibar refuse to talk to the Jedi Order. When Jedi arrived on Yanibar to try and reach an accord, the Zeison Sha kept the Jedi away from the children on Yanibar, since they believe the Jedi Order to be kidnappers on a grand scale.

The evil of Revan would be the torturing of Jedi to make them fall and join his Sith, but beyond that, there really wasn't much evil to him. He did have Saul Karath attack Telos, but we find out later about the plans for the Jedi Order to relocate to Telos. I think the only other thing would be moving all the Jedi who are not loyal to him to the battle of Malachor and him being 'delayed' might also be an act of evil, but I wonder. He did prevent Malak and the other Sith from attacking the Exile.

As to the True Sith, there are hints that the missing emperor from The Old Republic is in fact Ludo Kressh. He faked his death......again.
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Old 05-14-2009, 10:45 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by ShinDangaioh View Post
The stealing of children is why the Zeison Sha on the planet Yanibar refuse to talk to the Jedi Order. When Jedi arrived on Yanibar to try and reach an accord, the Zeison Sha kept the Jedi away from the children on Yanibar, since they believe the Jedi Order to be kidnappers on a grand scale.
This I did not know. Thank you for sharing.
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The evil of Revan would be the torturing of Jedi to make them fall and join his Sith, but beyond that, there really wasn't much evil to him. He did have Saul Karath attack Telos, but we find out later about the plans for the Jedi Order to relocate to Telos. I think the only other thing would be moving all the Jedi who are not loyal to him to the battle of Malachor and him being 'delayed' might also be an act of evil, but I wonder.
In these cases I would argue strategy, but these acts were indeed cold at best.
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He did prevent Malak and the other Sith from attacking the Exile.
That he did. And for good reason, he learned a lot from our favorite busty broad. No, not Bastilla, though there is a mod that makes Bastilla more busty than anyone else in KOTOR and TSL (minus Luxa possibly). Same goes for Mira.
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As to the True Sith, there are hints that the missing emperor from The Old Republic is in fact Ludo Kressh. He faked his death......again.
That does not surprise me. It could not be Naga Sadow as we all know what happened to him. Huh, I guess Ludo Kressh might be living out the Sith dream of immortality.


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Old 05-14-2009, 12:48 PM   #12
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That does not surprise me. It could not be Naga Sadow as we all know what happened to him. Huh, I guess Ludo Kressh might be living out the Sith dream of immortality.
It wouldn't surprise me. The frail human known as A'Sharad Hett was able to expand his life well past a hundred years (only to be murdered by his most trusted adviser). Imagine what a strong species such as the Sith could do with the Force.

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Old 05-14-2009, 03:22 PM   #13
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I wonder if Darth Bane wasn't the sith'ari.


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Old 05-14-2009, 05:17 PM   #14
Lord of Hunger
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@ Te Mirdala Mand'alor: True, Marka Ragnos was both physically strong and powerful in the Force, Tulak Hord was one of the greatest lightsaber wielders in the Galaxy, and Naga Sadow nearly crushed the Republic. Plus, Malachor and its Force Vampiricy teachings were a result of the Ancient Sith Empire, so I shudder to think what powers the Sith will wield in TOR.


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Old 05-16-2009, 11:33 AM   #15
TKA-001
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I asked you for a case of stealing. That is not a case of stealing. The child's parents were presumed dead when it was found, so the rest of the case doesn't have anything to do with stealing. Both sides in the case have equally well-grounded reasons for their side, though.

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It also stated in the Hero's Guide that when the Jedi reestablished contact with the Zeison Sha, that they took some of the Zeison Sha children with them - without the Zeison Sha's consent. This pretty much destroyed any hope the Jedi had of reconciling with their estranged cousins, and it's not like I blame them.
I suppose I'll have to take your word for it on that, because Wookieepedia only says that there were "reports of Jedi child-snatching", refraining from saying anything about the validity of any such reports. On another note, do you have any evidence that this "child-stealing" business was a policy for a more than negligible period of the Order's existence? I ask because even if the Zeison Sha incident is entirely accurate, it seems to be more the exception to the rule than anything else.

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Yes, they usually required parental consent, but so did the Psi Corps. Being such a powerful organization, I'd imagine it would be very hard for a parent to tell them "no" if they showed up on the doorstep, demanding their offspring. That, and I can't recall a case in GFFA where the parents told them "no" and stood by it.
So you're saying that the Jedi intimidate and/or pressure families into giving them their children? What evidence do you have for this?

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discourage friendships,
Wrong. They discourage unhealthy attachment, like that Anakin did with Padme. Since when do Jedi not have friends? Obi-Wan was clearly an old friend of Dexter Jettster in AOTC, for example.

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forbid any love except love of the Order
Again, the problem is attachment, not love itself.

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discourage any emotion save hatred of the Dark Side
If I may quote Wookieepedia on the "Jedi = No emotions" balderdash:

"This tenet is not to say that emotion does not exist but that it ought to be set aside. Emotions must be understood first, and it is a young Jedi's duty to explore his feelings. Unless a Jedi can confront his thoughts and feelings, he will never achieve peace. Emotions, then, are not to be overcome or denied, but rather understood and dealt with. This tenet could be modified to read 'Emotion cannot take away my peace.' "

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the Clone Wars took it to a new level of low with 13-year old Padawans commanding armies of 10-year-old Mando'a slaves.
If anyone "enslaved" the clone troopers (which they didn't. The clones were created solely for war, had no independence, and were essentially organic droids. Besides, what were they supposed to do, just sit on their hands while the Confederacy bullies the galaxy into submission with its own military forces?), then it was the Republic who did it, not the Jedi.

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I will admit my view on the Jedi is colored heavily by what I've seen of similar organizations in other universes - Azarath of the DCU, the Ol-Zhaan of Green Sky, the Psi Corps of B5...I know that the first two meant well, too. The first was trying to purge all evil from themselves in order to destroy a powerful demon, and to keep the offspring of that demon from causing mayhem. The Ol-Zhaan was set up to keep the dangerous history of violence and shame secret so the rest of the society could enjoy their placid utopia.

Another example from another universe. Dr Light, already a dyed-in-the-wool supervillain, broke into JLA headquarters and raped Sue Dibny. Upon his capture, he boasted to the JLA that he knew their secret IDs, could just as easily get in their base again, and would do to their families what he'd just done to Sue.

The JLA had a problem, so a quick vote was taken, and it decided by a 4-3 margin to alter Dr. Light so he was no longer a major threat. He was still a villain, but he was something of a joke.

Until he recovered his memories. Then, all hell broke loose. Now, word's out among the supervillains that the JLA can and will do this to them, and it made them much less willing to be captured and more willing to resort to desperate and dangerous measures.
I'm afraid I'm not familiar with any of the other franchises that you're using for your comparisons, so you can only succeed in confusing me by comparing them.

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The Covenant took a prevailing belief as spoken by Vrook in K1:

And took it to the nastiest extreme possible. They would have gotten away clean, too, if Zayne hadn't had his "strange luck" Force ability.
Interestingly, Vrook is the one who ordered the punishment of the Covenant members after the incident at Taris.

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Just because Revan was evil didn't make it right
No, but the fact that Revan was the only person who could find the Star Forge and end the war did make it right. It was either that, or let Malak screw the galaxy over. It's not like they had a stack of alternatives.

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and the problem with the tactic is that it has a really bad tendency to backfire. In fact, DS Revan is a great example of this.
But it didn't backfire. Besides, it was their only shot.

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They say they're going to strip the Force from the Exile, true. Yet, when Kreia reverses the process ("Now see it through the eyes of the Exile"), it kills the Masters. That made me think that what they were doing was likely to be lethal.
No other Jedi have died from that technique being used on them. More to the point, Kreia did not cut the Masters off from the Force. It's called Force Drain. Because:
1. It looks exactly like Force Drain.
2. It sounds exactly like Force Drain.
3. It is never implied to be anything other than Force Drain.

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Even pro writers at Lucasarts do this all the time. This is how Vergere got retconned into a Sith and where the theory that Palpatine was pulling a Revan and consolidating the universe to fight the Vong kicks in.
We aren't the writers. What the writers say and do makes changes in the Star Wars universe. What we say and do doesn't. You can't just pick and choose what EU to follow.

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And where I got the idea about the True Sith not being a physical Empire was a couple lines from Kreia. She belittled the idea that the machines of war and the people who fought with them were Sith, stating that the Sith were a belief. The other was the loading screen of K1, stating that the True Sith died out (they were referring to the race), but that the Sith were followers of an ideal.

There are archives like Trayus and keepers of those archives like Kreia. In destroying those, it's a way to beat back their influence. You can no more destroy them permanently than you can keep dandelions from growing in your lawn, but you can hold them back as long as you can.

It's also possible that Revan is repairing some of those wounds in the Force created during his/her rampage as well.
Again, it has since then been established that the True Sith was a physical empire.

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I'm a heretic and fully admit it. Han shot first,Revan's a girl, Exile's a man, etc.
I don't care who shot first, or what genders the Player Characters were.

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In every incarnation of SW, there is this battle between Jedi and Sith, Light and Dark. The more it tilts in one direction or another, the nastier the backlash (Ruusan thought bomb, Order 66) when the Force rights itself. Yet, nothing is solved. The conflict never ends. Every few centuries, the Force users tear themselves to bits for no apparent gain and no true victor. Why? That's why I suspect a nugget of truth in the old hag's ranting.
I always figured it was because the EU writers couldn't think of radically different enemies to use for newer stories.

This isn't the freaking Cthulu mythos. There isn't some enormous space-god that controls everything.

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That one signal battle obviously had great repercussions: It fractured the Sith Empire, but left the Republic without a tool that would have actually restored it. Yes, I know that the Star Forge's nature is corrupting, but one day of its use at maximum output would have produced enough resources to restart its economy if you think about it.
Do you have any evidence that that is the Star Forge's production capability, or is that merely speculation on your part? Also, how does construction of military assets help an economy?

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Aside from the bombardment of Telos IV, what did Revan do that was so evil? Declare war on the most corrupt and incompetent government in the GFFA? Leave an army that had no true capacity for war until he gave it that capacity?
"I say that the Republic was incompetent and corrupt, without any evidence that it was excessively so at that point in time, and that justifies committing war crimes against it." That means that Palpatine was justified as well.

Revan deliberately arranged for massacres and war atrocities during the Mandalorian Wars, in order to corrupt his followers to the dark side and build up military support for himself, so that he could turn on the galaxy that he previously fought to protect. Leaving certain planets defenseless in order to use the subsequent genocide of the planet by Mandalorians as a morale booster was a standard strategy of his. He ordered and authorized the construction of a superweapon that was capable of effectively destroying all life on and around a planet, not to mention causing heavy damage to the planet itself. Later, he sent a fleet composed primarily of officers whose loyalty was to the Republic, rather than him, to Malachor to fight the Mandalorians. He deployed this superweapon at Malachor, knowing full-well that when used, it would effectively destroy the planet, and more importantly, the majority of the Republic and Mandalorian fleets there, winning the war for him and ridding him of anyone within the military forces he commanded who would oppose him once he formed his Sith Empire.

Compared to all the **** he pulled during the Mandalorian Wars, Darth Revan's exploits in the next war were almost tame. The first battle of the Jedi Civil War was an unprovoked attack on Foerost. He permitted his apprentice, Darth Malak, to test the loyalty of Sith Admiral Saul Karath by having him depopulate the planet Telos IV, which is comparable to Galactic Emperor Palpatine permitting Grand Moff Tarkin to destroy Alderaan four thousand years later (in fact, while not canon, it is interesting that the cut content of KOTOR II mentions that Revan is the one who ordered Telos' destruction all along). Darth Revan also murdered opposing political officials, such as Yusanis. Then there's the wide-spread capture and torture of Jedi throughout the war (which isn't justifiable, whether you like the Jedi or not).

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Fight a decadent monastic order ruled by men and women who are in every way complicit with the slaughter committed by the Mandalorian Wars?
"complicit–adjective
choosing to be involved in an illegal or questionable act"
The Jedi Order was completely "complicit" with the Mandalorian Crusade? That's bull****. Absolute bull****. They were not involved in any way with the Mandalorian Wars. If any Jedi was complicit with the Mandalorian genocides, it was Revan, who permitted, secretly arranged for, and used them for his own ends, when in situations where he did not need to.

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Create a stable and efficient political, social, and economic machine?
Provide some evidence that the Sith Empire's political, social, and economical status was equal to or better than the Galactic Republic's.

Speaking of political stability, the Sith Empire explodes like a firecracker if its Dark Lord of the Sith and his successor are killed. That doesn't sound like political stability to me.

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Why? They will go at any lengths to kill those perceived as Sith.
I've explained this to you before. The Jedi Covenant's existence was unknown to any of the Jedi Councils, and to put it mildly, they did not condone anything the Covenant did. The actions of the Covenant do not say anything about the character of anyone except its members.

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Considering that the Jedi Council was unwilling to stop the genocide on Cathar
The great thing about this example is that I don't even need to repeat the reasons why the Jedi stayed out of the war, because not only did the Battle of Cathar occur before the Galactic Republic even became involved in the Mandalorian Crusade, but no details of the battle reached the Jedi Order until years later.

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but perfectly willing to declare war on and demonize Revan's Empire, I'd say it's a pretty good representation of what the Jedi are: fanatics like the Sith who want the other guy dead.
Stupid Good Alignment: "Stop picking on those poor, defenseless hellspawn!"

Yeah, the Jedi wanted to get rid of the Sith because they're fanatics who want them dead. Their reasons have nothing to do with the fact that the Sith universally try to take over the galaxy by force, deliberately killing uncountable innocent people, causing incalculable property damage, and **** knows what else.

Revan's Sith Empire demonized itself on its own, what with the above-mentioned war crimes it committed. I suppose the next thing you're going to tell me is that Luke Skywalker was a despicable monster for destroying the first Death Star, and that the fact that it was a planet-destroying superweapon that was killing billions of people at a time was no excuse.

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Again, what did Revan do that was evil? He saved the Galaxy from the Mandalorians.
Revan deliberately allowed for and engineered massacres on the same level that the Mandalorians committed them. Bao-dur also remarks that the Mandalorians never did anything as horrendous as Malachor V. Stopping the Mandalorians was fine, but by the time Malachor rolled around Revan had only been doing it so that he could take over.

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He declared war on a lazy, incompetent oligarchy cloaked with the word "democracy".
"I don't like the Republic, so it's okay for Revan to kill quadrillions of innocent people if they're affiliated with the Republic."

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The Jedi Council takes him and turns him (canonically) into their pawn.
They turn the most notorious Sith Lord since Exar ****ing Kun back into a Jedi, allowing him to stop Malak and the Jedi Civil War. Yeah, that's simply a horrific thing for them to do. And after the Star Forge is blown up, they let Revan go scott-free. Do you think that's what the Republic would have done? **** no. If the Republic found him instead of the Jedi, Revan would be dead.

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As for his methods, which you have opposed in the past in other posts, his tactics have been used in real life by both the Allies and Axis in WWII (the whole thing of not protecting one village so that five others may be saved). It's called war, and hell, it's been done throughout our entire history. It's not a war crime, it's the successful execution of war.
It is war crime because Revan deliberately left targets undefended in order to use the resulting massacres for his own ends, not because it was a necessity or the "lesser of two evils". It wasn't because he had to divert forces elsewhere, it was because his plan required massacres of Republic troops and civilians. They were an essential part of his plan to convert his followers. This wasn't necessity. It was design.


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Old 05-16-2009, 03:34 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by TKA-001 View Post
Do you have any evidence that that is the Star Forge's production capability, or is that merely speculation on your part? Also, how does construction of military assets help an economy?
The Star Forge is a production facility. We know that when Revan attacked, he had plenty of ships to do so with but that he preserved Republic military facilities in order to use them rather than Star Forge in order to fuel his fleet and supply his empire in general(Source: Both G0-T0 and Mical). Thus he hardly used it, but with that bare use he had already produced a powerful fleet. When Malak took over he apparently began pushing the Star Forge's production capacity to the max (progressively in the game, the Star Forge's production statistics are reported higher). Given that Malak was not a tactical person and relied on numbers advantage, and that he was winning the war without Revan's tactics (though barely), you can see that the Star Forge's production capacity is indeed quite powerful. And I doubt that it could only build military products. Given that a lot of what was being produced was the result of schematics supplied by the Sith. It is likely that one could input any schematic for any mechanical apparatus and see it produces. Plus, the Rakata would likely want things other than military constructs built in order to support their empire, though their production was primarily military based.
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"I say that the Republic was incompetent and corrupt, without any evidence that it was excessively so at that point in time, and that justifies committing war crimes against it." That means that Palpatine was justified as well.
Well Palpatine did have many decent justifications for his Galactic Empire, other wise he wouldn't have been able to found it. However while we have an indication of his character as being pure evil, what little character testimonies we have does not point to Revan as being a monster. Revan, if anything, embodies efficiency (source: G0-T0, Mical, Kreia, HK-47, and others). Who testifies to Revan being a monster? The Republic and the Jedi, who in order to raise support for the war are essentially compelled to demonize the enemy. In this case, I don't blame them as they need all the support they can get but it does not mean that Revan was evil.
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Revan deliberately arranged for massacres and war atrocities during the Mandalorian Wars, in order to corrupt his followers to the dark side and build up military support for himself, so that he could turn on the galaxy that he previously fought to protect.
Please cite where Revan arranged for atrocities to occur. Did he bomb Serreco or Cathar? No. It's true that he did leave worlds open, but because he knew that the Republic did not have the strength to defend every single world and win the war at the same team. And if Revan is evil for letting some Outer Rim worlds get burned, imagine how worse the Republic is for always letting the Outer Rim get burned during just about every war they fight (hell, many popular Republic politicians had open contempt for Outer Rim worlds).
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Leaving certain planets defenseless in order to use the subsequent genocide of the planet by Mandalorians as a morale booster was a standard strategy of his. He ordered and authorized the construction of a superweapon that was capable of effectively destroying all life on and around a planet, not to mention causing heavy damage to the planet itself. Later, he sent a fleet composed primarily of officers whose loyalty was to the Republic, rather than him, to Malachor to fight the Mandalorians. He deployed this superweapon at Malachor, knowing full-well that when used, it would effectively destroy the planet, and more importantly, the majority of the Republic and Mandalorian fleets there, winning the war for him and ridding him of anyone within the military forces he commanded who would oppose him once he formed his Sith Empire.
Essentially you are describing exactly what the Allies + the Soviet Union did to the Axis. We bombed the hell out of Germany and Japan, and when Japan didn't give in we decided to kill thousands to save millions with the atomic bomb.
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Compared to all the **** he pulled during the Mandalorian Wars, Darth Revan's exploits in the next war were almost tame. The first battle of the Jedi Civil War was an unprovoked attack on Foerost.
Taking Foerost was a necessary strategic act in order to begin the preparation of the Galaxy for an invasion by the True Sith Empire.
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He permitted his apprentice, Darth Malak, to test the loyalty of Sith Admiral Saul Karath by having him depopulate the planet Telos IV, which is comparable to Galactic Emperor Palpatine permitting Grand Moff Tarkin to destroy Alderaan four thousand years later (in fact, while not canon, it is interesting that the cut content of KOTOR II mentions that Revan is the one who ordered Telos' destruction all along).
No one denies this one incident/
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Darth Revan also murdered opposing political officials, such as Yusanis.
Destabilizing entities similar to the Mandalorians.
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Then there's the wide-spread capture and torture of Jedi throughout the war (which isn't justifiable, whether you like the Jedi or not).
Perhaps, but tell that to millions that will loose their lives in the Great Galactic War and the Cold War.
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"complicit–adjective
choosing to be involved in an illegal or questionable act"
The Jedi Order was completely "complicit" with the Mandalorian Crusade? That's bull****. Absolute bull****. They were not involved in any way with the Mandalorian Wars. If any Jedi was complicit with the Mandalorian genocides, it was Revan, who permitted, secretly arranged for, and used them for his own ends, when in situations where he did not need to.
The Jedi Order is the sworn protector of the Galactic Republic. To not uphold this position is to directly permit the Mandalorians to destroy the Republic and massacre its civilians.
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Provide some evidence that the Sith Empire's political, social, and economical status was equal to or better than the Galactic Republic's.
We know that much of the Galactic Empire's military structure (such as the tactic of faceless soldiers as intimidation of the enemy) was based upon Revan's Empire. This points to the idea that Palpatine like many other Sith drew some inspiration from the tactics of Revan (which have only ever been matched by the brilliant strategist Thrawn). We also know that the Galactic Empire did a significantly better job at enforcing the rule of law than the Republic (though probably a bit too zealous). While the Republic in many cases allowed corporations to perform deeds both heinous and often illegal and massive crime syndicates to run rampant, the Empire tended to nationalize entire industries and run them more effectively than groups like Czerka and the Trade Federation. Massive crime syndicates like the Black Sun were only allowed to function as long as they supported the Empire in opposing the Rebel Alliance, and when they failed to do exactly as the Empire wanted were very brutally crushed.

If the Sith Empire of Darth Revan is anything like the Galactic Empire of Darth Sidious, due to Revan's doctrine of efficiency it is easily superior to the Republic (which allows a massive crime hub like Nar Shaddaa to function and tie into the Galactic Economy and must acquire its primary strategic healing agent from a world they don't even control and must pay a very costly fee thus in order to give soldiers necessary medical treatment ).
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Speaking of political stability, the Sith Empire explodes like a firecracker if its Dark Lord of the Sith and his successor are killed. That doesn't sound like political stability to me.
Considering that it is a fledgling Empire which has gradually gone from a federal-style level efficiency under Revan to an overly centralized organization under Malak, I'm not surprised. My bet is also that this Empire was run partially by a council of Lords that served and were loyal to Revan and were likely picked for their intelligence. From what we know of Malak's character, he probably rooted out these individuals when he betrayed Revan, and thus like all of his actions weakened the stability and efficiency of their Sith Empire.
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I've explained this to you before. The Jedi Covenant's existence was unknown to any of the Jedi Councils, and to put it mildly, they did not condone anything the Covenant did. The actions of the Covenant do not say anything about the character of anyone except its members.
Considering what the regrouped Jedi Council was planning to do the canon Exile (who has helped heal and stabilize several vital worlds and saved thousands) on the mere suspicion that she was another Darth Nihilus, I'd say that the Jedi Covenant is actually a true representation of the character of the Jedi Order.
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The great thing about this example is that I don't even need to repeat the reasons why the Jedi stayed out of the war, because not only did the Battle of Cathar occur before the Galactic Republic even became involved in the Mandalorian Crusade, but no details of the battle reached the Jedi Order until years later.
True, but the news of it should have been sufficient motivation for the Jedi Order to join the Galactic Republic in opposing the Mandalorians.
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Stupid Good Alignment: "Stop picking on those poor, defenseless hellspawn!"

Yeah, the Jedi wanted to get rid of the Sith because they're fanatics who want them dead. Their reasons have nothing to do with the fact that the Sith universally try to take over the galaxy by force, deliberately killing uncountable innocent people, causing incalculable property damage, and **** knows what else.
Considering that the victors write history, this is only plausible at best. Plus, no two incarnations of the Sith are the same. The Ancient Sith are very different from Exar Kun's Sith, who are also different from Revan's Sith, etc etc..
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Revan's Sith Empire demonized itself on its own, what with the above-mentioned war crimes it committed. I suppose the next thing you're going to tell me is that Luke Skywalker was a despicable monster for destroying the first Death Star, and that the fact that it was a planet-destroying superweapon that was killing billions of people at a time was no excuse.
I am not going to say that because Luke is one of the very very few Jedi I admire. For one thing, he does not spurn his emotions like his predecessors did, but rather followed his emotions. Rarely did his passions lead him down a wrong path, and when they started to you'll note that he was good at finding out what he was doing wrong and getting back on the right path. His Order initially was superior in every way to the Old Jedi Order, yet returned to the old failed ways eventually.
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Revan deliberately allowed for and engineered massacres on the same level that the Mandalorians committed them. Bao-dur also remarks that the Mandalorians never did anything as horrendous as Malachor V. Stopping the Mandalorians was fine, but by the time Malachor rolled around Revan had only been doing it so that he could take over.
Bao Dur and the Exile note that Malachor V was the only way to stop the Mandalorians, despite how monstrous it was. With the Mandalorians, only something on that magnitude could have crippled their spirits, or otherwise they would have kept fighting like the Japanese. If anything, this deed saved the Mandalorians from absolute extinction, since the more moderate and level headed Canderous would become Mandalore the Preserver and in some ways redeemed the Mandalorian name.
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"I don't like the Republic, so it's okay for Revan to kill quadrillions of innocent people if they're affiliated with the Republic."
Again, Revan did not kill quadrillions of innocent people. And it's not that I don't like the Republic, it's that the Republic is at best a failed government. Anyone who looks at it with open eyes can see that. Hell, the vaunted Ruusan Reformation was the height of Republic stupidity. A nation without a military? Only Costa Rica can pull it off and that's because the US grants them protection and they are a small (but beautiful) country.
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They turn the most notorious Sith Lord since Exar ****ing Kun back into a Jedi, allowing him to stop Malak and the Jedi Civil War. Yeah, that's simply a horrific thing for them to do. And after the Star Forge is blown up, they let Revan go scott-free. Do you think that's what the Republic would have done? **** no. If the Republic found him instead of the Jedi, Revan would be dead.
Had they stood with Revan in the first place, the Jedi Civil War would have been a twisted alternative reality and it would have been possible that the whole Order would have learned of the True Sith, allowing a unified Galaxy to prepare. Instead Revan had to do the whole thing himself, but Malak ****ed everything up.
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It is war crime because Revan deliberately left targets undefended in order to use the resulting massacres for his own ends, not because it was a necessity or the "lesser of two evils". It wasn't because he had to divert forces elsewhere, it was because his plan required massacres of Republic troops and civilians. They were an essential part of his plan to convert his followers. This wasn't necessity. It was design.
Source? If you are referring to Force Wounds and how they fit into Revan's plans, Revan never need to create them until Malachor, especially since the most famous massacres like Serreco had already been committed.

And you keep missing something: Revan only discovered the True Sith and started converting Jedi into Sith when he DISCOVERED MALACHOR V AND THE TRAYUS ACADEMY! Before that, no "corruption" was occurring.

In conclusion of this post, my opinion is that you have been citing inaccurate examples of Sith atrocities and not even noting that almost all examples of Sith incarnations are the direct result of JEDI FAILURES. It began with the Dark Jedi of the Hundred Years Darkness revolting against the failed teaching of "there is no emotion, there is peace", continued with the ridiculous way that the Jedi decided to test the character of Freedon Nadd (essentially they asked him to become a Dark Jedi :¬, failed to sufficiently show Exar Kun why the thirst for ultimate power can lead one astray, failed to protect the Republic against the Mandalorians, thus forcing Revan, Alek, the Jedi Exile, and hundreds of other brave men and women to take up the great burden, and insufficiently guided Anakin Skywalker's journey as a Jedi, thus leading to him becoming Darth Vader.[/RANT]


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Old 05-16-2009, 04:25 PM   #17
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Uh... I'm gonna have to agree with Lord of Hunger on this one, he made some excellent points.

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Old 05-16-2009, 09:54 PM   #18
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HA! I'VE WON! I GOT MANDALORE HIMSELF TO AGREE WITH ME! HA!

Just kidding. Thank you, Te Mirdala Mand'alor. I admit, TKA makes a real strong case for the Jedi but that makes it all the more fun.


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Old 05-16-2009, 10:06 PM   #19
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Telos IV had the place where the Jedi would have retreated to, so the attack on Telos in the opening stages of the Jedi Civil War was taking out a Jedi supply line. Revan also put the HK factory on Telos. There is recorded cut content about that Polar Academy on Telos being the reason why Revan ordered the attack on Telos. It was sending a message to the Jedi that there woud be no place they could run and hide.

The Jedi did one thing during the Mandalorian Wars that caused the schism in the first place. They did their best to keep the information that the planet Cathar was attacked by the Mandolorians and that the Cathar race was almost wiped out a complete secret. That covering up of the destruction of Cathar led to the Jedi Civil War. Revan found out about it and used it as a rallying point.

Serreco, Duros, Eres III and the destruction of a few other planets, Vrook blamed Revan and the renegade Jedi for those even thought they were destroyed before Revan entered the war.

Atris: The Jedi Coucil asked only for 'time' to evaluate the Mandalorain threat.
Napolean Bonepart: Ask me for anything, but time.
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Old 05-16-2009, 10:53 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by ShinDangaioh
Telos IV had the place where the Jedi would have retreated to, so the attack on Telos in the opening stages of the Jedi Civil War was taking out a Jedi supply line. Revan also put the HK factory on Telos. There is recorded cut content about that Polar Academy on Telos being the reason why Revan ordered the attack on Telos. It was sending a message to the Jedi that there woud be no place they could run and hide.
True.
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The Jedi did one thing during the Mandalorian Wars that caused the schism in the first place. They did their best to keep the information that the planet Cathar was attacked by the Mandolorians and that the Cathar race was almost wiped out a complete secret. That covering up of the destruction of Cathar led to the Jedi Civil War. Revan found out about it and used it as a rallying point.
Wait...they did WHAT?! I did not know about this...okay, I think this will help me seal my argument. Thank you ShinDangaoih.
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Serreco, Duros, Eres III and the destruction of a few other planets, Vrook blamed Revan and the renegade Jedi for those even thought they were destroyed before Revan entered the war.
Exactly.

ShinDangaioh, you have been very helpful, so thank you again. Combined with some of my other arguments, I can create the ultimate argument to plead a case to the Star Wars community: that Darth Revan be absolved of all titles such as war criminal and villian so that he may be looked upon as what he truly is...a hero.


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Old 05-16-2009, 11:39 PM   #21
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Revan brought to light the information that Cathar was attacked by the Mandolorians and almost eradicated, but he did not expose the Jedi Council's role in trying to keep it quiet. That's the main reason that all the Jedi joined him to fight. They wanted to stop a menace that attempted genocide against a peaceful people for the most part.

Excluding Juhani, the Cathar had no wish for any more of their race to be trained as Jedi, since the Jedi philsophy and Cathar instincts conflict. That saying 'we want nothing more of any sort of Force training' is probably why the Cathar were brushed under the rug. They were not important to the Jedi.
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Old 05-19-2009, 04:00 AM   #22
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I fully admit that my view of Star Wars is cynical and quite uncharitable towards the saber-swingers. Just pull up a handful of my other posts.

I also thought a major point of the KOTOR series, more in K2 than K1, was that it really didn't matter if you called yourself one thing or another - one's actions spoke louder than any title. As Jolee put it, belonging to the Jedi or the Sith won't change what you are at the core. Kreia reiterates that with her argument that the Jedi attempted to make Revan betray herself, but instead stripped away all the trappings Revan had, revealing the core of one who went to battle on behalf of others.

A more subtle point, and related to the first, is that there is sometimes not much difference between the Sith and the Jedi. Their codes mirror each other, they fear love as the most terrible thing to befall a saber-swinger for different stated reasons (but, perhaps, for the primary reason it gets between a wielder and the Force). The Jedi can lie and manipulate and the Sith can tell the truth. In K1, those outside the Republic or the Empire don't really understand the difference in the Force Schools (the Selkath are a great example, as was Ergeron in the merc cantina). In K2, no one CARED what the difference even might be.

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Originally Posted by TKA-001 View Post
Wrong. They discourage unhealthy attachment, like that Anakin did with Padme. Since when do Jedi not have friends? Obi-Wan was clearly an old friend of Dexter Jettster in AOTC, for example.

Again, the problem is attachment, not love itself.
If they were not so afraid of what they could not control, then why do they insist on taking their recruits in infancy and cutting them off from their families? Why not wait until they are of age to make the decision? The Jedi even state that as the reason for their policy (Darth Bane: Path of Destruction). The 10-year old Anakin was considered too old for Jedi training, but the 10-year-old Zannah was considered almost too young for a Sith. In fact, the only GOOD thing you can say for the Sith is that they prefer their recruits old enough to understand what they're in for.

While Jedi were allowed marriage and family in Exar Kun's War, after it was a different matter. Existing marriages and children among the Jedi probably were tolerated (the Draays), but a strict "no more!" mentality took hold.

Nope. We need look no further then Bastila's dialogue tree for the official party line. "Family entanglements are fraught with powerful emotions, they can impair rationality and lead to outbursts of uncontrolled emotion. A Jedi must be above such things." Bastila also scolds Revan (esp. M!Revan) constantly about how attachments of any kind are forbidden.
In K2, we hear about Arren Kae being run out on the rails for having a child, with the implication that even having so much as contact with Brianna was a major no-no. There's also M!Exile's "pulling a Bindo" snark to the Handmaiden when she comments about love among Jedi.


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If anyone "enslaved" the clone troopers (which they didn't. The clones were created solely for war, had no independence, and were essentially organic droids.
Hardly. Even the lady behind the Republic Commando books calls 'em slaves. They bled and died like sentient beings. They looked out for one another like sentient beings. They grieved their fallen and searched for their missing. Some, like Jangotat and Darman even fell in love and fathered children. That sure as dar'yaim doesn't sound like "organic droids."

But hey, whatever helped the good people of the Republic sleep at night.

"Were the Clones slaves or not?" should actually make for its own thread as to not derail this further, though.

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No, but the fact that Revan was the only person who could find the Star Forge and end the war did make it right. It was either that, or let Malak screw the galaxy over. It's not like they had a stack of alternatives.
What disturbs me most? What if the Endar Spire wasn't attacked? What if they got what they wanted out of <Fullname>, found the Forge, and wrecked it without anyone being the wiser? You still have a Sith Lord running free, attached to the prized Padawan. Revan still has potential to be VERY dangerous, maybe "too dangerous to live" (to quote Windu) but isn't useful any longer. On the other hand, the persona you programmed in is placidly clueless. Letting them run loose would be an option, perhaps, but has too many variables to trust, especially with what we're dealing with. Do you take the result and shut it up in an Enclave? Do you turn them over to the Republic for a "fair" trial, even if a death sentence is a likely foregone conclusion?

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We aren't the writers. What the writers say and do makes changes in the Star Wars universe. What we say and do doesn't. You can't just pick and choose what EU to follow.
Any writer, fanfic or "licenced," is picking and choosing through the continuity. That's why you have details that contradict and override one another. that's why you have Kreia talking about dejarik games when a previous writer established the game wasn't invented until centuries after Kotor.

And sometimes, you just see a piece of canon that you end up working around or avoid mentioning as much as possible. The Holiday Special, anyone?


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I always figured it was because the EU writers couldn't think of radically different enemies to use for newer stories.
Thrawn and the Vong were two GREAT examples of Non-Sith Star Wars foes. And while the RL explanation is that Jedi vs Sith has a certain classic flair, it isn't giving an in-universe explanation as to the endless pattern of destruction.

Atton's a bastard (even LS), but he had a point:

Quote:
Atton: "Because Jedi lie. And they manipulate. And every act of charity or kindness they do, you can drag it out squirming into the light and see it for what it is. The galaxy doesn't need Jedi arrogance or Jedi hypocrisy anymore."
Jedi Exile: "The Jedi are guardians of the peace, they are not as you describe"
Atton: "The Jedi... the Sith... you don't get it, do you? To the galaxy, they're the same thing; just men and women with too much power, squabbling over religion, while the rest of us burn."
But Sith kill Jedi, Jedi kill Sith. The Sith are dangerous nuts wanting to take over the cukoo's nest, but that doesn't necessarily qualify Jedi Master Nurse Rached for sainthood.


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Also, how does construction of military assets help an economy?
Well, World War 2 did solve the Great Depression in the most horrific manner possible, if you want a real-life example. War creates the need for armies and soldiers. Soldiers need bases and services. Defense contractors make a killing (pun intentional) creating new and better ways to kill people. In the GFFA, Czerka was profiting handsomely working with the Sith in K1, and still made a killing when it came to provising "security" and "reconstruction" services to Telos in K2.


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Old 07-06-2009, 11:12 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by ShinDangaioh View Post
Telos IV had the place where the Jedi would have retreated to, so the attack on Telos in the opening stages of the Jedi Civil War was taking out a Jedi supply line. Revan also put the HK factory on Telos. There is recorded cut content about that Polar Academy on Telos being the reason why Revan ordered the attack on Telos. It was sending a message to the Jedi that there woud be no place they could run and hide.
By taking the planet, Revan would have cut off anywhere for the Jedi to retreat, had a planet on a strategically critical hyperspace lane, and had the natural and military resources of the planet to defend said space lane. Even more useful - Telos was also crawling with failed apprentices, and other Force Sensitives that could have made excellent additions to the Dark Jedi Brigade.

Malak, having no concept of subtlety, screwed the pooch when he told Karath to nuke the place. No Force Sensitives to recruit, no military or industry, no one guarding the space lane, and the Republic now has a rallying point. The only salvageable "good" the Sith got out of this was cutting off the Jedi escape route and confirming Admiral Karath's defection. All things considered, I'll bet Revan was ticked.

Quote:
The Jedi did one thing during the Mandalorian Wars that caused the schism in the first place. They did their best to keep the information that the planet Cathar was attacked by the Mandolorians and that the Cathar race was almost wiped out a complete secret. That covering up of the destruction of Cathar led to the Jedi Civil War. Revan found out about it and used it as a rallying point.
Poor Juhani. We knew in-game that it was the Revanchists that inspired her to the Jedi in the first place. Then, we find out that there WERE Jedi on Taris - the crazy, fanatical kind. Now, we find out that the Jedi she is so devoted to were covering up the genocide of her people?

Questions:

1) Were those truths the weapons Quatra used to goad her into rage?
2) Does she even know, or are the Jedi Masters keeping it quiet, and hoping she won't ask?
3) If the Masters are keeping it quiet, and she finds out, how will it affect her relationship with the Order?


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