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Old 12-25-2007, 10:47 PM   #1
sithhead
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CIS?

Now what do you guys think. If you like the republic just listen and try not to just ignore everything and just say the republic wins. So the reason the CIS (droids) lost was because, palpatine was telling the clones were the droids bases, and founderies were. He was also and I bet holding back the programing of the droids because I hardly dought that the droids would be that dumb, i mean like c-3po or r2-d2 were even smarter. What do you think I will also put a poll on this between the droids (CIS) and the clones (republic) if palpatine wasn't here.
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Old 12-25-2007, 10:49 PM   #2
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oh sorry guys forgot the poll sorry. Just say who you think would win if palpatine never interfeared.
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Old 01-15-2008, 07:19 PM   #3
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If there was no Palpatine there wouldn't have been a war. Palpatine was pulling the strings on both sides.
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Old 01-19-2008, 05:55 PM   #4
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Exactly.

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Old 03-04-2008, 03:34 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by sithhead
oh sorry guys forgot the poll sorry. Just say who you think would win if palpatine never interfeared.

Maybe it would be a war with the Kamino people.
Nobody knew an army was made except one who died 10 years ago.
If the republic wouldn't pay for the army. They would lose


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Old 03-15-2008, 02:12 PM   #6
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Even though there would have been no war if I had to pick I would say the clones.The droids were easier to manufacture but the commandos could have easily infiltrated and destroyed the factories.
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Old 05-25-2008, 12:41 PM   #7
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I belive the droid army would be more powerfull than the Clone army ... Yes ofcourse it was manipulated by Darth Sidious ... but I do belive the CIS is more powerfull than the Republics army. I need to add that the desings of the CIS ships are very cool ... very alien desing ... I love it.



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Old 05-25-2008, 01:01 PM   #8
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CIS the contoris battle droid factory and jedi killer factorys where only destroyed becuase of palps and they would of changed the outcome of the war + paps placed the order for the closes though sidious
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Old 05-25-2008, 01:31 PM   #9
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Count Dooku was going to betray Darth Sidious if Obi-Wan would have accepted the offer of becoming his apprentice ... If this would have happened ... CIS would have won the war for sure.



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Old 05-25-2008, 03:10 PM   #10
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Doolu trusted palpy way too much, and such is his weakness. Pity, cause he can be a great sith with a vision.

Plus, thew droids are not as ruthless as they can be cause alpy is trying to balance the situation so no side is too powerful, as a way to drag on the war and push weight onto the jedis and congress.

Simply put. even the simple idea of simple localized bio-chemical weaponary attacks acompanying ALL droid attacks would make the CIS far more superior. Its the simple situation of droids being expandable machinary. Same goes for the semi scorth-earth tactic of placing cheap poisonous chemical coating on all droid stuff.

But as we know it, any overly successful weaponary development by CIS would be put down by palpy himself to maintain the balance.
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Old 05-25-2008, 05:24 PM   #11
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In my opnion the CIS would of won the Clone Wars if they weren't shut down and Palpatine stopped pulling strings. They had tons of factories for droids and ships, along with their-allied planets were also helping. They could easily take-over Coruscant if Palpatine hadn't messed with everything, and maybe Count Dooku could still be their leader too.....
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Old 05-25-2008, 09:36 PM   #12
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Stop being a bunch of fanboys

From what I gather, this discussion is about which side were win had no events of the war been interfered with by Sidious or Dooku.

Regardless of what you peoples' favorites are, for that was the only factor any of you used when casting your vote, the war could just have easily gone either way. They both had armies and fleets, thousands of member worlds, and their own secret weapons. There are no implications that I am aware of that either the Republic or the Confederacy had an advantage over the other in terms of military strength, industrial capacity, et cetera. As far as any source tells, the two sides were more or less evenly matched, as far as military goes. The Republic and Confederacy both have their brilliant strategists, propagandists, and politicians. The Republic had their Jedi, and the Separatists had their Dark Jedi.

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palpatine was telling the clones were the droids bases, and founderies were.
I'd like a source for that. Besides, even if he was, Sidious helped the CIS as well (such as providing schematics of Republic starships to maximize Buzz Droid effectiveness).

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He was also and I bet holding back the programing of the droids because I hardly dought that the droids would be that dumb, i mean like c-3po or r2-d2 were even smarter.
Palpatine had no reason to "hold back" the programming of the droids, even if that was possible. Besides, the Battle Droids have poor accuracy and armor anyway. They're designed for deployment in large numbers compared to average soldiers. I don't know what your comment about 3PO and R2 is supposed to mean. Of course they were smarter. The battle droids were not as smart because they weren't programmed to be smart. They're for use in battle, hence the phrase battle droid.

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Even though there would have been no war if I had to pick I would say the clones. The droids were easier to manufacture but the commandos could have easily infiltrated and destroyed the factories.
This statement makes it pretty clear that you don't really know how warfare works. To destroy a factory in such a manner means you have to know about the factory in the first place, which means Intelligence or scouts have to dig something up. And in a galaxy, there's a lot of places to dig.

Then you have to devise a way of inserting the commandos into the factory, and a way of them destroying it without getting killed, of which there is an extremely high probability. Quite a few clone commandos were killed in the Battle of Geonosis, and other places as well. In the strategy that you suggest, one would have to go through the same process, over and over and over.

Simply saying that they "could easily have infiltrated and destroyed the factories" doesn't really prove anything.

Quote:
I belive the droid army would be more powerfull than the Clone army ... Yes ofcourse it was manipulated by Darth Sidious ... but I do belive the CIS is more powerfull than the Republics army. I need to add that the desings of the CIS ships are very cool ... very alien desing ... I love it.
Completely irrelevant to the discussion, and gives no basis whatsoever.

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CIS the contoris battle droid factory and jedi killer factorys where only destroyed becuase of palps and they would of changed the outcome of the war
First of all, the Jedi Killers failed because they couldn't be produced in enough numbers to make much of a difference. Palpatine had nothing to do with it. Second, while I must admit that the Cortosis Droids were effective, they were highly specialized, produced specifically for killing Jedi. Aside from their anti-Jedi role, the CBDs were not really anything except B2 Battle Droids with significantly-increased costs.

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Count Dooku was going to betray Darth Sidious if Obi-Wan would have accepted the offer of becoming his apprentice ... If this would have happened ... CIS would have won the war for sure.
Why? How would Obi-Wan being on Dooku's side change anything? Does he possess some sort of strategic or tactical ability that I don't know about?

People sorely overrate the capabilities of force-users to run military forces.

Quote:
Simply put. even the simple idea of simple localized bio-chemical weaponary attacks acompanying ALL droid attacks would make the CIS far more superior. Its the simple situation of droids being expandable machinary. Same goes for the semi scorth-earth tactic of placing cheap poisonous chemical coating on all droid stuff.
Where exactly could they get such a biological weapon? How would they possibly be able to "coat it" on all of their military assets without at the same time poisoning all of the citizens on their own worlds? Droids have to protect cities and other locations that have life forms in them. And what about when the droids are escorting Dooku around? Besides, clone trooper armor is essentially a miniature space suit, rendering biological weapons ineffective.

Quote:
They had tons of factories for droids and ships, along with their-allied planets were also helping. They could easily take-over Coruscant if Palpatine hadn't messed with everything, and maybe Count Dooku could still be their leader too.....
The usual bias fanon drivel. Nothing in there worth countering.

The fact is that nobody can fairly predict how the Clone Wars turned out. There are simply far too many factors and too much information to possibly predict the outcome of a single battle, let alone the entire war. Any attempt to do so is simply bias nonsense such as the previous arguments above.


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Old 05-25-2008, 09:49 PM   #13
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The CIS lost because Darth Sidious was manipulating the war … you can create droids way faster than clones … that’s one advantage, droids can be fixed uhh clones cant … as far as I know … The confederate has most of the factories and corporations on their side … I respect you’re opinion and point of view … but I still think the CIS would beat the republic’s army is it wasn’t for the manipulation of Darth Sidious.

I do believe that if Obi-wan would have joined Dooku , Dooku would be forced to kill sidious since the offer of Dooku to Obi-wan turning him to the dark side to make him his apprentice as Qui-gon was once … so this would have stop the manipulation of the cofederation by Sidious. That’s why I made the comment of Obi-Wan.

It’s my point of view … and some points of view are done even without prove … so don’t get mad or upset with our points of view



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Old 05-25-2008, 11:47 PM   #14
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In the movies it says that clones are far better soldiers then droids. Also the Republic had jedi to lead their forces, aswell as ARC troopers and clone commandos wich proved to be a great asset.
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Old 05-26-2008, 12:08 PM   #15
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that’s one advantage, droids can be fixed uhh clones cant … as far as I know
Ever hear of bacta?

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I do believe that if Obi-wan would have joined Dooku , Dooku would be forced to kill sidious since the offer of Dooku to Obi-wan turning him to the dark side to make him his apprentice as Qui-gon was once … so this would have stop the manipulation of the cofederation by Sidious. That’s why I made the comment of Obi-Wan.
Dooku never asked Obi-Wan to become a Sith apprentice, just another of about a dozen or so of other Dark Jedi in the CIS.

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It’s my point of view … and some points of view are done even without prove … so don’t get mad or upset with our points of view
I'm not getting mad or upset. I'm pointing out the flaws in both sides of the argument, as well as the plausibility of the argument itself.


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Old 05-26-2008, 01:12 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by TKA-001 View Post
Dooku never asked Obi-Wan to become a Sith apprentice, just another of about a dozen or so of other Dark Jedi in the CIS.
Meaby ... Meaby not ... Obi-wan is pretty powerful to ignore as a apprentice.



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Old 05-26-2008, 02:30 PM   #17
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I suppose so. According to the Episode III novelization, Dooku actually wanted to convert Obi on the Invisible Hand, not Anakin. However, Sidious told him that Obi-Wan was too devoted to the Jedi to convert, so he went with Anakin.

And got his head chopped off.


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Old 05-27-2008, 12:25 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TKA-001
Dooku never asked Obi-Wan to become a Sith apprentice, just another of about a dozen or so of other Dark Jedi in the CIS.
Actually in AOTC, Dooku wanted Obi-Wan on his side. To, me it is implied that Dooku wanted Obi-Wan to become his apprentice. Obi-Wan's response:
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Originally Posted by Obi-Wan Kenobi ~ AOTC

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Old 05-27-2008, 08:53 AM   #19
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All that proves is that he wanted Obi-Wan to turn dark-sided. Dooku had an entire host of Dark Jedi working for him. Wanting a Sith apprentice of his own to overthrow Palpatine with would be an irrationally premature prospect.


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Old 05-27-2008, 07:20 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TKA-001
Wanting a Sith apprentice of his own to overthrow Palpatine with would be an irrationally premature prospect.
Not necissarily. Dooku knew Obi-Wan. There is a big difference between Dark Jedi and Sith apprentices. I guess that it just depends on how one percieves the situation, and we all have our own opinions, which is just fine by me.

Thanks for replying!

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Old 05-28-2008, 09:47 AM   #21
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It's probably making a leap to assume that Dooku was asking Obi-Wan to be his apprentice, but it's not too far of a leap based on SW history. If Obi-Wan did help Dooku overthrow Palpatine, there's little doubt in my mind that he would have become Dooku's apprentice.



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Old 05-28-2008, 04:30 PM   #22
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I'd like a source for that. Besides, even if he was, Sidious helped the CIS as well (such as providing schematics of Republic starships to maximize Buzz Droid effectiveness).

Where exactly could they get such a biological weapon? How would they possibly be able to "coat it" on all of their military assets without at the same time poisoning all of the citizens on their own worlds? Droids have to protect cities and other locations that have life forms in them. And what about when the droids are escorting Dooku around? Besides, clone trooper armor is essentially a miniature space suit, rendering biological weapons ineffective.
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In the movies it says that clones are far better soldiers then droids. Also the Republic had jedi to lead their forces, aswell as ARC troopers and clone commandos wich proved to be a great asset.
Well, clone troopers are but a minority. If you check on the stats you would know that combat machines of CIS outnumbers the Coones by many times. Also, despite what you see on screen, many inhabitants on various planets are fighting, like the wookiees you see.

On droid only attack forces and chemical weaponary attacks. It is not too hard to find elements and substances that are harmful to lifeforms and yet have little to no effect on machinary, many of which can be as simple as bi-chemical wastes. Yes there is even a comic about having some uber bio-chemical agent developed b CIS, think it happens on Ruri(near Naboo) against Gungan colonies. Durge/Ventress is in that comic. Obviously you don't have to use some "kill all suber virus", as a weaker type of attack would do just fine during some invasion, as long as your goal does not include making immediate friends with the defeated locals. Same goes for making more effective exploding drones other than a buzz droid. A cheap seek and explode thermo datonator would work just as well if not more in many cases. Just blow upquickly the cockpit and what not and its many times better than trying to take apart a flyer with a few buzz droids in due time.

I am just saying that bio-chemical (or even nuclear/radiation) weaponary would be a good addition to a mostly droid invasion forces. Note that the fact of wearing protective gears would already reduce the effectiveness of enemy troops (adding a few pounds per trooper and more) and not to mention cost. That, added to the massive outnumbering of droid army vs elite Galactic troops, would give the droids some advantages.

As to damage to local denizens. You don't have to poison every droid force everywhere. Just use them when needed.

I have to agree though. That palpy is giving vital information to both sides inorder to prolong the war, thoug it is also undenyable that he would most prefer if the CIS would be the defeated. If, as said, the palpy factor is removed, would there even be a war?
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Old 05-28-2008, 05:04 PM   #23
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No, there wouldn't be. If Palpatine didn't have Dooku form the CIS, the disgruntled Republic systems would simply stay around and grumble some more.


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Old 05-31-2008, 07:46 PM   #24
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I don't think that Palpatine was playing both sides during the war. I think that after he initiated it he was just allowing the war to take its natural course until the senate had become scared enough and granted him enough emergency powers, or the Jedi discovered him or the Republic were close to defeat. In which case he would direct the GAR to carry out order 66 and have Dooku execute the CIS leaders. Ending the war.

He did change his mind in ROTS when he suddenly decided he wanted Dooku dead though, lol.



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Old 05-31-2008, 07:50 PM   #25
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the clones would win easily, the droids were to easy to destroy, one bullet or lightsaber swipe and that thing is out of commission for good


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Old 06-01-2008, 12:34 AM   #26
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I don't think that Palpatine was playing both sides during the war. I think that after he initiated it he was just allowing the war to take its natural course until the senate had become scared enough and granted him enough emergency powers, or the Jedi discovered him or the Republic were close to defeat. In which case he would direct the GAR to carry out order 66 and have Dooku execute the CIS leaders. Ending the war.

He did change his mind in ROTS when he suddenly decided he wanted Dooku dead though, lol.
I disagree with this. I think Palpatine needed the war to continue to ensure his leadership of the senate, and to wait for Anakin to be ready for his plot to unfold. He definitely played both sides in making that happen - one as Palpatine and one as Sidious.


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Old 03-13-2009, 12:49 PM   #27
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To conclude:

The clones had better accuracy and better weapons but the CIS(Confedrency of Independant Systems) had more units and different units. In my own opinion the clones would win but, after calculations they showed that the CIS had a 78% chance of winning. The war would of gone on for ages but the CIS would never run out of units so even with the jedi on the clones side the CIS would control at least 80% of the galaxy before they called a peace Treaty.

But in order for this to happen the war must have gone on for about 18 years.
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Old 04-12-2009, 11:09 PM   #28
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The CIS should have won, by all counts, since they can make droids far faster than the Republic can make clones. The numbers quoted in the movie then interpreted by the EU lead to a huge fiasco... where you had thousands, millions, or even billions of times the number of droids as clones, and the number of Jedi is absurdly small.

So really, it should have been obvious to everyone that the war was "rigged" from the start, or else the CIS should have mopped the floor with the Republic in short order.

But then there's the apparent (and illogical) refusal of the Republic to use droids in battle. So they'll risk expensive clones, and even more expensive Jedi, and regular citizen planet armies... but not droids?

Here and I thought this was supposed to be some kind of culture that "mistreated droids"? C'mon, even during the American Civil War (which influenced some of the portrayals of the wars in SW as we know), both sides used black soldiers.

Numbers matter... with equivalent technology, it just doesn't make much sense to assume a foot soldier could realistically defeat 1,000 (nevermind 1,000,000) enemies, or that a pilot could take out 1,000 other similarly equipped pilots in combat. The droids in the movies may seem hapless, but then again, so are the stormtroopers in the OT. Even that aside, these men can't be that lucky. Plus, we see LOTS of clones killed in Episode II and III, showing that they definitely aren't that much better (if at all) than droids in combat. And the TPM novel only gives us "10,000 Jedi." Even if that's only referring to Knights and up (not including Padawans and librarians or janitors who have some knowledge of the Force but no real combat readiness), that isn't enough to make up for the huge disparity in numbers. And when you further consider that the main battles aren't just taking place between groups of infantry or dog fighting pilots, but between equivalent ground, air, and space vehicles, which are equivalent in firepower (but need to be manned, except in the cases of the droid fighters), the CIS has a huge advantage.


So when I watch the movie, I just pretend "units" (in AOTC) means a group, rather than one individual clone to maintain suspension of disbelief. AOTC's droid factory scene establishes that there must be a great number of droids, far more than any number in the single digit millions of soldiers (elite clones or otherwise) could deal with. A galactic civilization like the Republic couldn't realistically wage a "full scale war" with an army that could fit comfortably within the nations of 21st century planet earth.


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Old 04-14-2009, 12:35 PM   #29
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Well assuming no sith were involved it would be a tough choice. If you read the republic commando series books you get alot more detail about how they were always being held back and taking on minor far off worlds rather than the main bases and factories the CIS had.

Speaking from a Military background if you stop your main supply, this being droid factories you limit your enemy numbers. Since the republic arc troopers ran independently from the chain of command the republics main intel came from them.

I think the republic would take out the CIS if they could run the war their way it would have been the Republic victory hands down
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Old 04-14-2009, 02:09 PM   #30
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So when I watch the movie, I just pretend "units" (in AOTC) means a group, rather than one individual clone to maintain suspension of disbelief. AOTC's droid factory scene establishes that there must be a great number of droids, far more than any number in the single digit millions of soldiers (elite clones or otherwise) could deal with. A galactic civilization like the Republic couldn't realistically wage a "full scale war" with an army that could fit comfortably within the nations of 21st century planet earth.
Some guy from somewhere wrote a comprehensive list of information on the scale of the Clone Wars, including troop numbers and the like, using the largest number of agreeing Canon sources as a basis, among other things. If I may quote him here:

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Originally Posted by the dude's site
Even if it is a matter of weeks instead of years, the additional time required to produce clones instead of directly producing droids was clearly a concern. This raises an interesting point – to prevent the Republic from being rapidly overwhelmed by faster produced droids, one would surmise that the initial strength of the Grand Army of the Republic must be far greater then that of the Confederacy. This is a fact confirmed by Lord Tyrannus in a public address when he states, “The forces on our borders and outlying colonial assets are admittedly facing greater numbers" (CIS Shadowfeed 14:2:14, article "Dooku Addresses 'Spurious' Republic Reports" SW Insider 65, page 75). However continual casualties would remove that advantage and inspire them to reduce this handicap as much as possible, which is what they did. Sixteen months into the war the Republic prototyped a new kind of clone vat commonly known as the Spaarti cylinder. These new hatcheries cut the growth time down to one tenth the time required by the original method (The New Essential Chronology).
His writings, found here, may shed some considerable light on the issue of what sort of war the Clone War really was.

My own view: Not every single thing that happened in the Clone Wars was a result of Dooku and Palpatine. The two were obviously in cahoots, but they viewed the Clone War mostly as a friendly game of chess that they would play, which in addition to being entertaining, would serve to further Palpatine's goals:

1. Make Palpatine look like a savior. The Confederacy has some extremely nefarious people leading it (Supreme Commander Grievous being an obvious), and Palpatine's leadership seemingly allowing the Republic to defeat them would gain him enormous public support. Three years of a devastating war weakened the will of the galaxy, that is, made it want a strong central leader to fix everything up.

2. Prepare for the rise of the Empire. Palpatine needs a powerful military to control the galaxy. Through the Separatist Crisis and the Clone Wars, get acquired that military.

3. Prepare for the destruction of the Jedi. A good number of the Jedi were killed during the Clone War, so that was a bonus on the side that held Palps over until the execution of Order 66 and the beginning of the Great Jedi Purge. The Clone War wasn't the first time Palpy did this sort of thing, either - one of the reasons he supported the Outbound Flight project was because he knew it would crash and burn with hundreds of Jedi on it.

In conclusion, Palpatine and Dooku used the war as a cover for their own agenda, which was ultimately the preparation for the Empire's creation. They did orchestrate a number of campaigns and other events - One of the reasons for the Battle of Coruscant was because the Jedi were coming close to discovering who Darth Sidious really was, and Palpatine needed the Jedi distracted - but for the most part, the war was left to its own devices. It was a friendly game a chess, but both sides knew how it would and, and the game was in reality a cover for the real plot.

Conclusion: The Clone Wars could have and would have gone either way, if Palpatine hadn't set the final events (the systematic elimination of the Confederate leadership) in motion.


"There is something going on in time and space, and beyond time and space, which, whether we like it or not, spells duty." -Winston Churchill

"For of all sad words of tongue or pen, The saddest are these: 'It might have been!'" -John Whittier

"Apathy is death." -Kreia
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Old 04-19-2009, 07:22 PM   #31
PoiuyWired
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To be fair, to balance both sides and prolong the war Palpy and a selected few leak information to one side or another so ground-breaking developments can be controlled, enhanced or eliminated.


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