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Old 06-19-2009, 10:39 AM   #81
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Old 06-19-2009, 10:39 AM   #82
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I was thinking, actually, that while the iMuse stuff may pose a gigantic barrier for simple porting, there's also a LOT of dialogue in MI1... The download size might be too big for XBLA? (Isn't there a limit?)

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Old 06-19-2009, 12:05 PM   #83
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I was thinking, actually, that while the iMuse stuff may pose a gigantic barrier for simple porting, there's also a LOT of dialogue in MI1... The download size might be too big for XBLA? (Isn't there a limit?)
Actually you'll be suprised by the memory space of the 360. I have 6 games already and I still have about 11.6 GB (which is a lot believe you me) of memory left. The most memory space a 360 can hold is about 120 GB.
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Old 06-19-2009, 12:19 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by ThunderPeel2001 View Post
I was thinking, actually, that while the iMuse stuff may pose a gigantic barrier for simple porting, there's also a LOT of dialogue in MI1... The download size might be too big for XBLA? (Isn't there a limit?)
They upped the limit a while back. Now it's massive. For instance the Watchmen game alone was 1.6gb I think. So that wouldn't be a barrier.
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Old 06-19-2009, 12:26 PM   #85
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To be honest after watching a couple of videos of SOMI:SE I have to say that the animations look horrible. They're rigid and stiff. Everything else however is great. The graphics (escpecially the artwork) look beautiful and the gameplay (obviously) is solid. The animations again are just bad. Guybrush walks around like he is constipated and everything just seems so restricted.
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Old 06-19-2009, 12:35 PM   #86
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Well the "stiff" animations might be the impression you get if you use the same number of animation frames and basic technique like in the original but in high-res the flaws and shortcomings become more visible.
They decided to go with a more CMI like Guybrush who is taller than the old sprite and thus his limited animation frames for walking become more apparent.
At least that's what I think. it's a real art form to get the most out of an animation when you only have e.g. 6 fps to work with. Maybe they should rehire Purcell or some oldschool stop-motion artists
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Old 06-19-2009, 12:38 PM   #87
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To be honest after watching a couple of videos of SOMI:SE I have to say that the animations look horrible. They're rigid and stiff. Everything else however is great. The graphics (escpecially the artwork) look beautiful and the gameplay (obviously) is solid. The animations again are just bad. Guybrush walks around like he is constipated and everything just seems so restricted.
I agree... but that's because they only use the original frames -- there's no extra ones. With such slick gfx it becomes very noticeable. The same issue is in Street Fighter 2: HD Remix on the 360.

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Old 06-19-2009, 02:36 PM   #88
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Can't fault them for it (it was presumably done with the best of intentions), but perhaps a case of being too faithful.


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Old 06-19-2009, 02:59 PM   #89
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I agree... but that's because they only use the original frames -- there's no extra ones. With such slick gfx it becomes very noticeable. The same issue is in Street Fighter 2: HD Remix on the 360.
I thought it looked OK but that's because I am aware of this issue and my eyes are prepared for it. But Thunderpeel is 100% right it's a fidelity of graphics far exceeding the animations issue.
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Old 06-19-2009, 03:27 PM   #90
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The animations still look stiff though. I can understand that they're trying remake the game with the best of intentions but character the animations bring the game to life. It makes the world more believable.
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Old 06-20-2009, 04:20 AM   #91
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Dude I know how animation works, I went to an animation school for 4 years...

I was just pointing out that a taller Guybrush with longer arms and legs might be a little more difficult to animate properly. you can't exactly draw over the old keyframes if your T-poses and draw-sheets for the characters don't match up.
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Old 06-22-2009, 10:54 AM   #92
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I think the animation looks just fine (as in equal to the original) EDIT: I changed my mind on this, they are a little stiff, but I stand by the position that some people think they are bad for an entirely different issue, the one stated below.

It stands out as having less frames due to the fidelity of the graphics. It is after all a frame for frame remake. Each frame of animation is simply drawn on top of the old, Guybrush may be taller (and that might make it stand out more) but I think if you spend time grabbing each frame and comparing it to the original you will see that they match up very accurately. It would simply take addition frames to improve the animation quality.

If I get a minute I'll grab the sprite frames myself and show you. Personally I think your eyes are playing tricks on you and there is nothing wrong with the new walking animation at all. You expect it to look one way and it looks different because of the higher resolution and different character design.

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Old 06-22-2009, 12:28 PM   #93
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Ok here it is ( -



Not sure what happened to frame 5 from the original, looks all wrong to me, I think the guy that ripped them messed up that frame.

The leg animations looks pretty identical to me. I can see they changed the arm swing a little to be less exaggerated, in a high resolution sprite I cna see those arms swings would look a little over the top.

Like I say I think the animation looks fine, would look great with twice as many frames but that would require changes to the code.

Personally I really LOVE this new Guybrush. My second favourite GB after Monkey 2. He looks like such an adorable dork! :-D

EDIT: Oh crap we are way off topic. Maybe we should move this to a new thread if we are going to continue talking about animation and the Special Edition. This should be about Monkey Island 2: Special Edition

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Old 06-22-2009, 12:39 PM   #94
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The problem with the new animation is that Guybrush keeps sliding across the screen between frames, not the quality of the drawings.
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Old 06-22-2009, 12:52 PM   #95
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I don't want to start up an old argument but we don't even know if Monkey Island 2: Special Edition is even coming out. Hell SOMI:SE isn't even out yet! They haven't given us an official release date yet.
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Old 06-22-2009, 02:22 PM   #96
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I dunno, that video was streamed and lags alot, which would cause it to look like a loss in frames. I don't see why they would make the game look choppier than the orginal and call it a HD remake. At least I hope its the lag and not the actual gameplay making it look choppy.
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Old 06-22-2009, 02:28 PM   #97
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I dunno, that video was streamed and lags alot, which would cause it to look like a loss in frames. I don't see why they would make the game look choppier than the orginal and call it a HD remake. At least I hope its the lag and not the actual gameplay making it look choppy.
There is no doubt the game has all the frames, just a conversion to video or video taken from streaming issue. They said they used all the frames from the original game.
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Old 06-22-2009, 03:16 PM   #98
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Where did you rip those Guybrush frames from?

Also: I can't believe frame 5 of the old GB has been boinked all this time and we never noticed! Lol!

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Old 06-22-2009, 03:28 PM   #99
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Where did you rip those Guybrush frames from?

Also: I can't believe frame 5 of the old GB has been boinked all this time and we never noticed! Lol!
Oh I didn't tell you? I already have the game and a Lucas arts SDK kit. I work at Lucasarts.

Lol, nah just joking. I'm a professional flash animator so I have some really cool toys :-)

I grabbed the flash file from the official site and just pulled the frames out of it. It has LeChuck, a monkey and Elaine in there too :-D

And I have a feeling that frame 5 was messed up by the guy that ripped it, it looks like he pasted two frames on top of each other.
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Old 06-22-2009, 03:44 PM   #100
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Oh I didn't tell you? I already have the game and a Lucas arts SDK kit. I work at Lucasarts.
Oh, all complaints to parabolee if they make it wrong!
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Old 06-22-2009, 03:59 PM   #101
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So now that we all established our animation kung-fu, I still stand by my initial statement.
The animation of a taller 1080p Guybrush leaves no room for imagination. You perceive everything as is. Whereas the pixelated version left room for imagination. Hell there were some frames in Monkey Island2 where I never could figure out if it was his coat moving or his arms or something else. You just filled in the missing stuff in your head.
The job of a remake team is not easy on this front. Even if they draw everything on the original keyposes it doesn't mean you get the same fluid feeling. I don't see a perfect solution for this, other than drawing completely new and/or more poses (more or less exaggerated and geared towards the new redesign)

As we probably all love the original animation, I think this is the best compromise.
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Old 06-22-2009, 04:08 PM   #102
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So now that we all established our animation kung-fu, I still stand by my initial statement.
The animation of a taller 1080p Guybrush leaves no room for imagination. You perceive everything as is. Whereas the pixelated version left room for imagination. Hell there were some frames in Monkey Island2 where I never could figure out if it was his coat moving or his arms or something else. You just filled in the missing stuff in your head.
The job of a remake team is not easy on this front. Even if they draw everything on the original keyposes it doesn't mean you get the same fluid feeling. I don't see a perfect solution for this, other than drawing completely new and/or more poses (more or less exaggerated and geared towards the new redesign)

As we probably all love the original animation, I think this is the best compromise.
Can't disagree with this, as I said higher resolution reveals more flaws. I mean take a look at that original frame 5, if that is correct and the ripper didn't mess it up, it's a terrible sprite! The front and back legs are all muddles together! But as I say I think there is a good chance he messed that up. But I'd have to get a good resolution video or boot the game in ScummVM to check for sure.
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Old 06-22-2009, 04:37 PM   #103
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Did they use their Singapore studio for it? Don't think so. Last I heard (and that was from a very high level Lucasfilm employee) was that the Singapore studio only did the Nintendo DS StarWars game. No other gaming related project yet. They are busy doing the CLONEWARS cartoons and I think some of the ILM shots get shipped over there.
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Old 06-22-2009, 05:27 PM   #104
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I still think that SOMI:SE animations are crap.
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Old 06-22-2009, 05:40 PM   #105
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That´s if you make it outside your country.

No joke.

One contra must be. Even in Monkey Island.


And:
Technically MI 1 was not perfect, too. Open the door from the ScummBar. No hands. Uri Geller?
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Old 06-22-2009, 05:50 PM   #106
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-super-snipped-
I also really hate Craig Derrick.
(I cut out the rest as i really dont have an informed opinion on the subject, it seems to be a valid discussion between two professionals who have far more insight to the going-on of animation than i do so ill pass there)

Im just curious as to why?

As far as i can see from the various interviews and Q&A with both him and the other members of the team is that it was his enthusiasm for the series that really brought about this whole revival. I for one can do nothing but applaud that. Admittedly im just as out of the loop as everyone else here as to the inner workings of how the decision was made but from the jesse harlan interview in particular it really seems that he was the one to take the initiative and make this happen.


Mix'n'Mojo Best Beard of 2008 Nominee~All the itchiness counted for something, sweet
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Old 06-22-2009, 06:38 PM   #107
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I still think that SOMI:SE animations are crap.
And I still think your wrong ;-D

Seriously though, look at those frames I posted. What's wrong with them? I'll make an animated GIF tomorrow so we can compare more closely. But for now I'm going to relax. Maybe play some Sam and Max Save the World.
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Old 06-22-2009, 08:22 PM   #108
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Then they should do a better job to make it look right. The end. No excuses. Street Fighter is not my apex of quality.
This argument is getting boring to read. In the above statement you are dead wrong and you should go check out SF2HDRemix before deciding that Udon know less about animation than you. The higher res sprites highlighted the lack of animation frames. Period. Check out any review. It is PLAIN to see.


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Old 06-22-2009, 08:43 PM   #109
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I'm going to start a new topic tomorrow to examine the new sprites and animation (like I did above), not to argue about if they are good or not but just out of interest in studying what has been done on the special edition, because as a digital artist and an animator I am interested. And partly because I love the look of the SE.

But I think it needs to be moves to a nw thread because this one is SUPPOSED to be about the barriers to a Monkey 2 Special Edition. There is plenty of fodder for discussion on that and derailing this thread is a disservice to that topic.

In fact to bring this topic back to the thred, I think I will have a go at creating my own Guybrush SE sprite for the Monkey 2 SE. I'll try and do it tomorrow, :-D

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Old 06-22-2009, 08:55 PM   #110
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I'm going to start a new topic tomorrow to examine the new sprites and animation (like I did above), not to argue about if they are good or not but just out of interest in studying what has been done on the special edition, because as a digital artist and an animator I am interested. And partly because I love the look of the SE.
Awesome!
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Old 06-22-2009, 09:09 PM   #111
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I still think that SOMI:SE animations are crap.
Compared to what??!

This is a typical juvenile (you were the 13old right? so you are excused) posting of an absolute statement you can only get away with in an internet discussion. You see, in the real world there are shades of grey and if you want to grow up a wise man, you need to differentiate and categorize a bit more than "crap".

Is it crap compared to the non-existent work of some holy, non existent team of ultimate-best-of animators injected with the combined Monkey Island love of thousands of fans with unlimited time and money on their hands? YES it is.

Is it crap when keeping in mind that in reality such a team has money, time, artistic and technical constraints (like trying to keep the same number of animation frames and poses like the original)?
NO definitely not.

It's best to develop opinions formed on all the available facts.
Of course if you just want to state "your gut feeling", than feel free.
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Old 06-22-2009, 09:29 PM   #112
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Awesome!
OMG LOL, love your avatar!
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Old 06-22-2009, 09:41 PM   #113
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OMG LOL, love your avatar!
LOL, Thanks!
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Old 06-23-2009, 07:57 AM   #114
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Compared to what??!

This is a typical juvenile (you were the 13old right? so you are excused) posting of an absolute statement you can only get away with in an internet discussion. You see, in the real world there are shades of grey and if you want to grow up a wise man, you need to differentiate and categorize a bit more than "crap".

Is it crap compared to the non-existent work of some holy, non existent team of ultimate-best-of animators injected with the combined Monkey Island love of thousands of fans with unlimited time and money on their hands? YES it is.

Is it crap when keeping in mind that in reality such a team has money, time, artistic and technical constraints (like trying to keep the same number of animation frames and poses like the original)?
NO definitely not.

It's best to develop opinions formed on all the available facts.
Of course if you just want to state "your gut feeling", than feel free.
I just think their crap thats all and you don't have to get my age involved in this. I don't have to tell you why I think their crap, thats my business and mine alone.
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Old 06-23-2009, 08:36 AM   #115
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Sorry not true. If you are participating in a discussion (which posting on a message board kind of is) than it's just rude to state something without backing it up, explaining it or trying to get the other person invested in your point of view.
Your are just venting or verbally throwing **** against the wall otherwise.
I know the internet was basically born out of a discussion culture like this, but that doesn't mean you should embrace it and dumb yourself down to that level.
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Old 06-23-2009, 09:11 AM   #116
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Ok. The reason I think the animations are bad is because they (to me at least) seem too stiff. In a word the animations just don't seem alive or lifelike. For me animations can bring the world to life. If you have stiff animations you destroy the believability of your world and I just won't seem interested. Example: MI2 had a load of new animations that brought the character of Guybrush to life and made more lovable. There were times when these animations would make me love Guybrush even more. For instance when Guybrush eyes pop out of his head when he sees a LeChuck costume. It just makes me want to love the character more and more. That is the only thing I dislike about SOMI:SE. The animations just don't seem right for the character of Guyrbush. When I see Guybrush walk in SOMI:SE I just think to myself thats not how Guybrush should walk or turn or anything for that matter. Basically I just don't feel right with the animations. Do you get were I'm coming from Guy.brush?
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Old 06-23-2009, 09:31 AM   #117
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Sorry not true. If you are participating in a discussion (which posting on a message board kind of is) than it's just rude to state something without backing it up, explaining it or trying to get the other person invested in your point of view.
Your are just venting or verbally throwing **** against the wall otherwise.
I know the internet was basically born out of a discussion culture like this, but that doesn't mean you should embrace it and dumb yourself down to that level.
Well, I'm 31 and I agree with him: The animation in the SE doesn't look great.

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Old 06-23-2009, 09:35 AM   #118
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Well, I'm 31 and I agree with him: The animation in the SE doesn't look great.
I think this thread should be closed now, it's getting ridiculous. Nobody (other my attempt to get back on topic) has mentioned a possible MI2:SE for pages!
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Old 06-23-2009, 09:45 AM   #119
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I agree with parabolee, things are starting to get out of hand with these agruments and debates. Maybe we should just move this topic to a new thread?

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Old 06-23-2009, 09:49 AM   #120
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Besides SOMI:SE isn't even out yet. They haven't given us a release date or anything so why are we all of a sudden assuming that there will be a MI2:SE? I'm just saying and thats all.
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