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View Poll Results: Star Forge or Death Star?
Star Forge 26 53.06%
Death Star 23 46.94%
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Thread: Death Star vs Star Forge?
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Old 06-15-2009, 09:57 AM   #1
GreyJediMaster
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Death Star vs Star Forge?

i know, i know, the Death Star can blow up planets, but the Star forge has forcey stuff. The Star Forge controlled by Malak, vs Death Star Mk 1 controlled by Vader?

(Malak would probably be overcome by the Forge's power, unlike Revan, who only used it to his limits. Whereas Vader woould be more objective, but he wouldnt have the Infinite Fleet)
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Old 06-22-2009, 11:34 AM   #2
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star forge, only becuase you can pop out so many ships and droids to fly said ships.




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Old 06-22-2009, 04:31 PM   #3
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Well it depends on the Death Star/Vader. If the Death Star is in front of the Star Forge and is facing it, the Star Forge would be no more, because of the Superlaser. If the Star Forge has time to create fighters(not cruisers) they could fly in and destroy the Death Star with some torpedos. And just think of their sizes. The Death Star is as big as an entire planet but the Star Forge........well it is small(next to the Death Star).

Or maybe both is destroyed! The Star Forge creates fighters, the Death Star destroys the Star Forge with the Superlaser and then the fighters destroy the Death Star

So yeah the Death Star has my vote.



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Old 06-22-2009, 06:05 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by mattig89ch View Post
star forge, only becuase you can pop out so many ships and droids to fly said ships.
It takes time to make these ships... Furthermore there is no proof that the Revan/Malak's droids could pilot the ships themselves just because there are droids piloting ships by themselves almost 4000 years in the future doesn't mean it can be done in the kotor era . We see that there are plenty of humans on their Interdictor ships. And according to the SW databank on the sith fighters: ( http://www.starwars.com/databank/sta...ter/index.html ) Little concern appears to have been given to the to the comfort of the Sith fighter pilot, and only the most essential subsystems were included, this means that the pilots were "meatbags" otherwise they would need zero comfort for droids.

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If the Star Forge has time to create fighters(not cruisers) they could fly in and destroy the Death Star with some torpedos.

Or maybe both is destroyed! The Star Forge creates fighters, the Death Star destroys the Star Forge with the Superlaser and then the fighters destroy the Death Star

So yeah the Death Star has my vote.
The problem with this theory is that it took the rebels a long time to get the Death Star plans and then analyze them. Malak's fighters would have no clue of the death stars weakness.
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So yeah the Death Star has my vote.
agreed
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Old 06-22-2009, 06:25 PM   #5
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Star Forge.

The Death star is nothing more than a weapon. The Star Forge is a factory more powerful than the economic force of the entire Republic at the time. It simply represented more destructive power than all shipyards and factories across thousands of worlds.

Let's also consider which one really presented the greater threat to the greatest number of people in Galaxy... that can only be the Star Forge.
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Old 06-22-2009, 07:35 PM   #6
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Star Forge.

The Death star is nothing more than a weapon. The Star Forge is a factory more powerful than the economic force of the entire Republic at the time. It simply represented more destructive power than all shipyards and factories across thousands of worlds.

Let's also consider which one really presented the greater threat to the greatest number of people in Galaxy... that can only be the Star Forge.
Well, maybe the Star Forge was a larger threat to a galaxy but if these two Space Stations would have to face each other the Death Star would win.
EDIT: Well now that I think about it, maybe Revan or Bastilla could use the Battle Meditation to win

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The problem with this theory is that it took the rebels a long time to get the Death Star plans and then analyze them. Malak's fighters would have no clue of the death stars weakness.
Well if Revan controls the Star Forge he could surely read Tarkin's or any officer's mind to know the Death Star's weakness.



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Old 06-22-2009, 07:40 PM   #7
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The Star Forge wouldn't need to produce any war ships or fighters. It would already have millions of them on standby!

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Old 06-22-2009, 08:13 PM   #8
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"Destroy the entire planet."

"That's no planet. It's a space station, Lord Malak."

"Whatever, just destroy it!"


If this were the original Death Star, its superlaser couldn't wipe out the capital ships. The second Death Star was incomplete, so it would've been destroyed much more easily.
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Old 06-22-2009, 08:46 PM   #9
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Well if Revan controls the Star Forge he could surely read Tarkin's or any officer's mind to know the Death Star's weakness.
Right so you want Revan (the way I interpreted the OP's post is that Malak's in control of it) to read Tarkin's mind in the middle of a battle across great a distance?(which would require incredible concentration which I have my doubts that Revan or Malak could do it) I don't see that happening, especially since Tarkin believed the death star to be indestructible, and the imperials only thought there was a chance after the rebels got into the trench. And even if they do somehow discover the exhaust port (if this is the first death star) then they still would have to get pass all the turrets, tie fighters, (who have 4000 year tech. advantage which would come into play) there still is no guarantee they can hit it. Even some of the rebel pilots didn't believe it was possible plus the first X-win who shot with a targeting computer (no doubt it was more advanced then it's kotor counterpart) still missed. Luke used the force to hit the exhaust port. (and he wouldn't have had the shot if not for Han)

The OP needs to add more details to this thread. Is this the first death star, the second death star as seen in ROTJ, or maybe a completed death star, location (idk maybe have the star forge's sun and the death star II's shield generator on endor be present) and if there are other fleets available.
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Old 06-22-2009, 08:53 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Darth Hord View Post
Right so you want Revan (the way I interpreted the OP's post is that Malak's in control of it) to read Tarkin's mind in the middle of a battle across great a distance?(which would require incredible concentration which I have my doubts that Revan or Malak could do it) I don't see that happening, especially since Tarkin believed the death star to be indestructible, and the imperials only thought there was a chance after the rebels got into the trench. And even if they do somehow discover the exhaust port (if this is the first death star) then they still would have to get pass all the turrets, tie fighters, (who have 4000 year tech. advantage which would come into play) there still is no guarantee they can hit it. Even some of the rebel pilots didn't believe it was possible plus the first X-win who shot with a targeting computer (no doubt it was more advanced then it's kotor counterpart) still missed. Luke used the force to hit the exhaust port. (and he wouldn't have had the shot if not for Han)

The OP needs to add more details to this thread. Is this the first death star, the second death star as seen in ROTJ, or maybe a completed death star, location (idk maybe have the star forge's sun and the death star II's shield generator on endor be present) and if there are other fleets available.
Well that's true. We need more detail. But let's just say that the Death Star is complete and the Star Forge doesn't have any fleet around. And it is controlled by Revan. The Superlaser would wipe out the SF even if there were a great fleet around.



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Old 06-22-2009, 09:32 PM   #11
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Well that's true. We need more detail. But let's just say that the Death Star is complete and the Star Forge doesn't have any fleet around. And it is controlled by Revan. The Superlaser would wipe out the SF even if there were a great fleet around.
Why not just say the Death Star's superlaser wasn't operational yet? Or better, that it had to charge for a shot; the Star Forge could produce enough starships to wipe out the Death Star's focusing crystals before it could open fire.

The Death Star also would have been wiped out by that disruption field and been pulled into the star's gravitational well.
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Old 06-22-2009, 09:41 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Darth_Yuthura View Post
Why not just say the Death Star's superlaser wasn't operational yet? Or better, that it had to charge for a shot; the Star Forge could produce enough starships to wipe out the Death Star's focusing crystals before it could open fire.

The Death Star also would have been wiped out by that disruption field and been pulled into the star's gravitational well.
Okay you made a point with the charging thing and the focusing crystal but the Distruptor field The Death Star is as big as a planet. That Distruptor field is not strong enough to pull the Death Star anywhere. But yeah you made a good point.



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Old 06-22-2009, 09:54 PM   #13
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Why not just say the Death Star's superlaser wasn't operational yet? Or better, that it had to charge for a shot; the Star Forge could produce enough starships to wipe out the Death Star's focusing crystals before it could open fire.
I seriously doubt it can produce that many number of ships in day. Plus they need to have the manpower for it. I think people have the wrong the wrong idea on just how fast the star forge can produce a ship like the interdictors. It's a giant weapons factory, but it still takes some time for it to produce capital ships. BTW where are the focusing crystals in the death star?

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The Death Star also would have been wiped out by that disruption field and been pulled into the star's gravitational well.
We have no clue how close the planet was to the star forge and im not sure if there was a range given for the Death Star's superlaser. That is important information.

I honestly don't think this thread is doable. The starforge and the death stars were two completely different type of "superweapons" with different purposes. One was intended to be a weapons factory with an infinite source of energy to allow it contruct ships,droids and other war related material 24/7. While the other was built to strike fear in any potential rebels, destroy planets and be the ultimate battle station. The ships that the star forge can produce is at a disadvantage from the start due to the 4000 year tech. gap. You really can't compare the two. In any fair scenario the GE has the tech. and probably personal advantage.
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Old 06-22-2009, 10:06 PM   #14
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I think that the Star Forge could manufacture technology from 4000 years in the future, but just need to be provided samples in which to duplicate.

I also agree that this is an unfair competition and comparison. You could eliminate the Death Stars with the Galaxy gun, the Star Forge could overwhelm entire star empires where the DS represents one 'invincible' weapon.
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Old 06-22-2009, 10:12 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Darth_Yuthura View Post
I think that the Star Forge could manufacture technology from 4000 years in the future, but just need to be provided samples in which to duplicate.
It probably could, in fact it wouldn't surprise if the star forge had a fair amount of hardware from the the future, then I suspect the hybrid products would be better then the original.


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I also agree that this is an unfair competition and comparison. You could eliminate the Death Stars with the Galaxy gun, the Star Forge could overwhelm entire star empires where the DS represents one 'invincible' weapon.
I completely agree, with you. This thread has too many what if scenarios.
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Old 06-23-2009, 12:37 AM   #16
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The Death Star: cutting-edge technology, humongous size, sheer planet-obliterating power. It'd erase the Star Forge in one shot.


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Old 06-23-2009, 12:42 AM   #17
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Death Star...contains thousands of stormtroopers...therefore awesome!

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Old 06-23-2009, 12:57 AM   #18
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Deathstar, all the way. The Death Star obliterates planets, and the Star Forge only builds weaponry, and has hardly any defenses asides from the assigned troops and dinky droids.

Death Star, completely, utterly, and ultimately. Kaboom


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Old 06-23-2009, 01:47 AM   #19
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The Death Star: cutting-edge technology, humongous size, sheer planet-obliterating power. It'd erase the Star Forge in one shot.
The Star Forge would erase the Empire before they could build the battlestation. Without an Empire, the Death Star would be pointless.

Compare one invincible weapon to an infinite fleet... obviously the power of the Star Forge equals the strength of entire empires. Just because it could be wiped out by a few capital ships doesn't make it any less powerful. What can the death star do? Destroy planets. What can the star forge do? Conquer the galaxy, that's what!
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Old 06-23-2009, 02:36 AM   #20
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Lets look at it this way: The Star Forge has its fleet surrounding it. The Death Star has its fleet and a fully charged superlaser.
The Star Forge fleet (which is constantly churning out new ships) engages the Imperial fleet. The Death Star fires its superlaser, but the blast takes out a Sith Cruiser instead of its intended target. The Star Forge continues to churn out Dark Side powered ships, which decimate the Imperial fleet. In about a day, the Imperial fleet is gone, the Death Star is fully charge, but the Sith battle fleet has blocked off all chances of the Death Star hitting its target. The Sith cruisers engage and destroy the Death Star, and the Sith Empire wins.
This isn't even considering the effect the disruptor field could have on the battle. That energy field alone would probably destroy or maroon more Imperial ships than all of the Star Forge ships.

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Old 06-23-2009, 02:56 AM   #21
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The Star Forge would erase the Empire before they could build the battlestation. Without an Empire, the Death Star would be pointless.
Riiight, well the Death Star would erase the Star Forge as it is being built or the sun it is leeching energy from. Like seriously, you can't argue against a goddamn superlaser.


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Old 06-23-2009, 03:48 AM   #22
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Riiight, well the Death Star would erase the Star Forge as it is being built or the sun it is leeching energy from. Like seriously, you can't argue against a goddamn superlaser.
Oh they will try Sabre, they will try.

Though Red has her own massive Factory Battle Station(s) of her own and those would rule them all!


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Old 06-23-2009, 04:20 AM   #23
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1. Can SF make ships fast enough before being destroyed by DS' superlaser?
2. Can the ships destroy DS before the superlaser hits SF?
3. Can SF withstand the DS' superlaser ?

AFAIK, Star Forge's durability isn't even close to a planet. Even if both of them have their own ships at start, I'm pretty confident to say that the Imperial Fleet will buy some time for DS to destroy Star Forge with the superlaser.

Death Star ftw.


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Old 06-23-2009, 05:16 AM   #24
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I'm with Darth Yuthura on this one. The Death Star is no more then a shall of a weapon. Where's the Star Forge is draws its on the dark side of the force. Yes, the death star has a super laser and can blow up things, but the Star Forge has the ability to use the force to corrupt users and species. The Star Forge corrupted the minds of the Rakatan which caused a civil war that, coupled with a plague, pretty much wiped out the species, apart from a few forgotten tribes on the Rakatan homeworld.

And besides, in KOTOR I, we never saw the Star Forge's potential. Revan limited his use's of the Forge when he was in power and Malak didn't use it too much either because he was busy searching for Bastila and her crew. Heck, the thing could have created a shield to block the Death Stars laser or maybe something far worse...

And another point I would like to add is that, it took a whole fleet to destroy the Star Forge. It took only one X-Wing fighter to destroy the Death Star.


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Old 06-23-2009, 05:19 AM   #25
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Well, it's funny that the SF proponents conveniently overlook the fact that the SF, coupled w/Bastila's Battle Meditation can't overcome a smaller Republic fleet in a LSM/F Revan setup. If the "awesome" SF can't overcome that, what hope has it against a moon sized battlestation that annihilates whole planets for kicks. Of course, if the DS's weak point were known to the SF forces, it's a different game. But if the DS caught the SF unawares......no more SF.


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Old 06-23-2009, 05:27 AM   #26
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Btw, Revan don't know the structure of DS and its weakness, as TS never stated it. So we can cut the whole thing about the man who destroys DS. Even if Revan wants to know about DS' structure, it's gonna take a while to get the information, and DS will destroy SF before it's going to happen.

I also agree that we never saw the true potential of SF, but as long as there's no way to stop the superlaser from destroying SF, I'm with Death Star.

Still waiting for someone to enlighten me and tell me how to stop DS from using the superlaser.


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Old 06-23-2009, 05:31 AM   #27
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And another point I would like to add is that, it took a whole fleet to destroy the Star Forge. It took only one X-Wing fighter to destroy the Death Star.
Well if Luke would be the only who attacks the Death Star, he would be destroyed in seconds by TIE-Fighters and DV. It took not just one elite Squardron to destroy it. And the other thing is the Death Star plans. The Rebels had to find those plans if they were to destroy that space station. The Republic didn't get any information about the Star Forge, only it's location. They could destroy it, without any information.



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Old 06-23-2009, 05:33 AM   #28
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Old 06-23-2009, 07:22 AM   #29
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Lets look at it this way: The Star Forge has its fleet surrounding it. The Death Star has its fleet and a fully charged superlaser.
The Star Forge fleet (which is constantly churning out new ships) engages the Imperial fleet.
It doesn't have a new ship ready every second of they day. Plus they need manpower for them and I already posted there is no proof that SF could pilot the ships without any "meatbags"(and from what we seen in the clone wars, the droids would be inferior to human piloted ships). If the death star has it's floet present then the star forge's fleet is screwed. The Imperial fleet has 4000 year tech. advantage and a wider variety of ships available to it.

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The Death Star fires its superlaser, but the blast takes out a Sith Cruiser instead of its intended target.
The Death Star 1 can only target planets/stationary objects and it couldn't change the power of each laser shot(like the 2nd death star does when targeting capital ships) meaning all of them are meant for a planet. An Interdictor (which is smaller then the ISD) ship would have to be anticipating the shot and I highly a doubt 600m ship could contain the laser and not have it go through the other side of the ship and onto its target.

Quote:
The Star Forge continues to churn out Dark Side powered ships, which decimate the Imperial fleet. In about a day, the Imperial fleet is gone
The ships themselves aren't powered by the darkside or there would have been mention to this feeling when you were on the Leiviathan (before Malak showed up) What is so hard to understand that even for the star forge it takes time for it to build ships like the Sith Interdictor class. How do you expect the SF fleet to take on a Imperial fleet such as the one at Endor that is 4000 years ahead of them and are superior in every way?

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This isn't even considering the effect the disruptor field could have on the battle. That energy field alone would probably destroy or maroon more Imperial ships than all of the Star Forge ships.
Assuming it could even work on ships from that far in the future I could just as easily say that the Imperials in charge realize this after the lose a few ships and takeout Lehon and then its fleet destroys the Star Forge, just like the republic fleet of smaller numbers and doesn't have a 4000 year advantage.

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Old 06-23-2009, 07:26 AM   #30
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^Agreed.


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Old 06-23-2009, 07:34 AM   #31
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Sorry ahead of time for the double post
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Originally Posted by Revan 411 View Post
I'm with Darth Yuthura on this one. The Death Star is no more then a shall of a weapon. Where's the Star Forge is draws its on the dark side of the force. Yes, the death star has a super laser and can blow up things, but the Star Forge has the ability to use the force to corrupt users and species. The Star Forge corrupted the minds of the Rakatan which caused a civil war that, coupled with a plague, pretty much wiped out the species, apart from a few forgotten tribes on the Rakatan homeworld.
This doesn't mean anything in a space battle. Notice how none of the members of your party (force sensitives and non force sensitives) can land on it and arent automatically corrupted.

Quote:
Heck, the thing could have created a shield to block the Death Stars laser or maybe something far worse...
Could have,would haves can't apply. We can only debate on the known information not speculation. And im pretty sure that the superlaser could penetrate shielded planets. (stated on wookieepedia, ill try to verify it)
Quote:
And another point I would like to add is that, it took a whole fleet to destroy the Star Forge. It took only one X-Wing fighter to destroy the Death Star.
It took an X-wing piloted by Luke Skywalker(who had aid from Han or Vader would have killed him) relying on the force. The rebels spent a long time trying to acquire the death star plans and finding a weakness. Even they found a weakness, rebel pilots thought it was impossible "even for a targeting computer," noticed how the first X-wing's targeting computer couldn't hit the mark and so I don't see how a sith fighter (assuming it even has proton torpedos or anything for this sort of mission) would be able to hit the target when it's computer is inferior.

This thread is like comparing apples to oranges, the Star Forge and the Death Stars were built for completely different purposes.
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Old 06-23-2009, 08:16 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Hord View Post
Sorry ahead of time for the double post

This doesn't mean anything in a space battle. Notice how none of the members of your party (force sensitives and non force sensitives) can land on it and arent automatically corrupted.


Could have,would haves can't apply. We can only debate on the known information not speculation. And im pretty sure that the superlaser could penetrate shielded planets. (stated on wookieepedia, ill try to verify it)

It took an X-wing piloted by Luke Skywalker(who had aid from Han or Vader would have killed him) relying on the force. The rebels spent a long time trying to acquire the death star plans and finding a weakness. Even they found a weakness, rebel pilots thought it was impossible "even for a targeting computer," noticed how the first X-wing's targeting computer couldn't hit the mark and so I don't see how a sith fighter (assuming it even has proton torpedos or anything for this sort of mission) would be able to hit the target when it's computer is inferior.

This thread is like comparing apples to oranges, the Star Forge and the Death Stars were built for completely different purposes.
Basically, that's what I said This "argument" will never end



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Old 06-23-2009, 08:24 AM   #33
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^No. SF team won't have the time to acquire DS' blueprint and destroy the DS. DS will destroy SF with its superlaser, as I have stated before. And TS never stated about preparation time, so we assume there's no prep time.

Still DS for the win.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Te Mirdala Mand'alor View Post
Lets look at it this way: The Star Forge has its fleet surrounding it. The Death Star has its fleet and a fully charged superlaser.
The Star Forge fleet (which is constantly churning out new ships) engages the Imperial fleet. The Death Star fires its superlaser, but the blast takes out a Sith Cruiser instead of its intended target. The Star Forge continues to churn out Dark Side powered ships, which decimate the Imperial fleet. In about a day, the Imperial fleet is gone, the Death Star is fully charge, but the Sith battle fleet has blocked off all chances of the Death Star hitting its target. The Sith cruisers engage and destroy the Death Star, and the Sith Empire wins.
This isn't even considering the effect the disruptor field could have on the battle. That energy field alone would probably destroy or maroon more Imperial ships than all of the Star Forge ships.
I assume you don't read the condition for this battle in TS's post. Try again.


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Old 06-23-2009, 11:42 AM   #34
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It's like Darth Hord said. The SF can produce droids and cruisers and fighters, but no soldiers, pilots, or any other living things. Also, it takes more than a second to create an entire fleet, some poeple really think that the SF produces a mass of fleets and pilots in a couple of seconds/minutes, but that's too fast. It would take up to a week to produce a fleet. Also, the DS is "indestructable", even if you have masses of battle ships and cruisers. The proton torpedo way is the only way to destroy it, and the Sith won't hear of it and get the Death Star's plans within minutes. It costed the Rebels months/years to get the plans and find the weak point.

At all, the Death Star wins with an propability of 110 percent.



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Old 06-23-2009, 01:23 PM   #35
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^Where does the extra 10% come from?


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Old 06-23-2009, 01:27 PM   #36
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Think for a moment about the factor of speed. The Death Star might be a weapon capable of destroying planets, but is as slow as ****! That's how most Imperial tech is, powerful yet slow. The Star Forge under Malak was increasing in production capacity and speed every day. In the Battle of Rakata Prime it was at 300%! Imagine if Revan, a far stronger mind, actually chose to push the Forge to its limit!

Also, remember what Vader said: "The power to destroy a planet is insignificant compared to the power of the Force." The Infinite Empire, the first Galactic Empire when it comes down to it, achieved far more in their tenure of power than what Palpatine's Empire did. World Devastators? The Infinite Empire had not only that but terraformers, and it was likely that they were the same thing. And looking at the Star Forge, the Infinite Empire conquered and destroyed with speed.

I'm also wondering what addition capacities the Star Forge could possess if Malak continued to experiment with it. Could he use Bastila as a conduit to infect the GE's ranks with Dark Side energies? While that might not be the scenario we are discussing it is worth thinking about....


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Old 06-23-2009, 01:33 PM   #37
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^First of all, think about how fast do the DS fire the superlaser. And also, DS is slow in what category? Because DS can do hyperspace travel and fire the superlaser in a pretty quick time.


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Old 06-23-2009, 03:28 PM   #38
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This really is a meta-battle of thoery vs. practicality. The SF may sound like a better tool in theory: a seemingly infinite, highly-productive, labour-less military complex (it should be noted that contrary to what it's sometimes called, the Star Forge is not a weapon, it is a factory).

The Death Star is a space-station first, notable for its superlaser that possesses tremendous power. It is mobile, highly-effective in its function and ready for operation.

The only way these two are similar is in that they are both space stations with comparable amount of defensive capablities and that they were both in possession of Dark Side Empires.

What would I pick if I had to choose one during war? I'd pick the Death Star first - its sheer power and psychological impact would allow it to be used similar to a nuclear weapon, as an intimidation tool first and a weapon second. Even if it doesn't terrorise my enemies into surrendering, it'd devastate core planets.

Edit: Has anyone else noticed that this thread should be in Republic Newsfeed and not Telos?


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Old 06-23-2009, 03:49 PM   #39
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Also most people forget all other lasers at the DS. There are more than 2000 turbolasers and ion canons. If the DS would do an orbital bombardement like the Leviathan did, he would blow up every single cruiser. And, due to the fact the Sith don't know the weak point, the fighters would be lost, too.



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Old 06-23-2009, 04:18 PM   #40
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Compare this to the F-22 Raptor. It is THE most capable fighter in the world. You can engage it against five F-15's and it would expect victory, but it can't replace five F-15's.

The Death Star can wipe out planets, yes; but the Star Forge can do the same thing. Only it can do it without limit. The Death Star needs an Empire to operate and fuel it where the Star Forge is powered by a star! Nothing beats that kind of energy.

And if anyone starts complaining about manpower, then the DS would lose hands down, as it requires a million people to operate it. That wasn't a limiting factor for the Sith when Revan was in charge.
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