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Old 06-25-2009, 05:26 PM   #121
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Originally Posted by Darth Hord View Post
I assume you mean the Death Star, not the star forge.
WHOOPS! Sorry, yes I mean the Death Star.
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But you have to look at how the rebel leaders first found about it purposes. The rebels knew of the death star pior to Vade capturing the rebel leaders and bringing them to Palpatine on the death star (during the force unleashed game,) where he revealed the stations name and purpose. So unless Revan tries to pull a starkiller move, then his empire would find out the hard way. And again your coming up with a scenario that makes this a major military campaign but as I have been saying I would like to make a new thread with a fair scenario because this is becoming the Galactic Empire vs Revan/Malak's sith empire (and this would allow for other circumstances not mentioned to come into play, so we must haves some sort of guideline, feel free to message me if anyone wants to) Otherwise you can't compare the two due to their different purposes.(The OP really made a bad thread)
I'll have to agree with the very last statement. Too many variables....
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Revan is not a military technician, he would need to acquire the death star plans and have a technician team extensively look over them (again this assuming were talking about the DS 1 and not some version of the second DS which has no exhaust port) as the empire looked over the exhaust port as a weakness then so could his. (im not saying they will but it is certainly a possibility) but Revan himself wont solve it, his best mechanical feat is building HK47 but building a droid (not matter how cool HK is) is not comparable to this.
It wouldn't be too hard to assemble a tech team based upon the Sith Empire's finest. As for getting the plans, you just gave me a way: HK-47. There is no one more perfect for the job than our favorite assassin droid.

But I agree this thread was badly constructed. I think we need to create an entirely new one: Revan's Sith Empire vs. Palpatine's Galactic Empire. That might be very fun.

Now that question is: Do you want to make it or shall I?


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Old 06-25-2009, 05:30 PM   #122
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Disruptor field that Darth Yuthura mentions
Right, the disruptor field affects electrical systems not superlasers. The disruptor field could cause it’s electrical systems to overload but due to it’s size it would stay in orbit and not crash into the planet (if it was in Lehon’s orbit)

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Sith fleet....
Wont stand much of a chance, the first death star had the following armaments:

Scattered across the Death Star's surface were thousands of weapons emplacements: a total of 10,000 turbolaser batteries, 2,500 laser cannons, 2,500 ion cannons and 768 tractor beam projectors. The station carried a crew of 265,675, plus 52,276 gunners, 607,360 troops, 25,984 stormtroopers, 42,782 ship support staff, and 167,216 pilots and support crew. The station also carried 7,200 starfighters, four strike cruisers, 3,600 assault shuttles, 1,400 AT-ATs, 1,400 AT-STs, 1,860 drop ships, and more. (source is the sw databank

And the second death star would be a lot stronger. And even at 4% power the beam of the first death star could destroy a 3000 km ship as did to the rebel alliance's Lucrehulk-class battleship called the Fortressa.

The following is Tarkins thoughts in the death star novel:

There must be trade-offs, he had said. In order to mount a weapon of mundicidal means, shielding capabilities would have to be downgraded to a rudimentary level. Power, Bevel had said, was not infinite, even on a station this size, fueled by the largest hypermatter reactor ever built. However, given the surface-to-vacuum defenses, the number of fighters, turbolaser batteries, charged-particle blasters, magnetic railguns, proton torpedo banks, ion cannons, and a host of other protective devices, no naval ship of any size would be even a remote threat. A fleet of Imperial-class Star Destroyers—even a fleet of Super-class Star Destroyers, should such a thing ever exist—would offer no real danger to the battle station once it was fully operational. Given all that, a shield system that was less than perfect at times wasn't such a high price to pay for the ability to vaporize a planet.

Though he is probably arrogant there is truth in his words (just look at the armaments i posted, i am aware that i posted info about the shield capabilities but i am all for getting the facts out) and now we know how the rebels destroyed it with starfighters but we have to consider the following facts about it's destruction, before we can assume that the same could happen here.

1.The rebels knew it weakness if the death star, if the Malak(who the OP puts in charge of the SF in the original post) doesn't know it's weakness he will be sending his interdictors to their destruction. Should the DS come with a fleet (which it likely would because once the empire knows of the SF,they would of the fleet present) then that further increases the Empire's chances at a victory because the fleet would be superior in every single way except maybe numbers (no number is given for the sith at the battle of the star forge though we have to consider the size of the GE fleet at Endor and the fact that if the GE knew of the star forge's location they likely know it's the capital of Malak's war effort so they would probably send a bigger fleet. )

2.The rebels got real lucky.(or as the jedi would say, they had the force on their side) Most the of the rebel starfighters were destroyed, Luke was the only fighter to really escape the trench run (Vader let Wedge escape because he was no longer a threat) and Luke only got the shot off because Han's interference.

3. To quote myself regarding the exhaust port:
Quote:
And even if they do somehow discover the exhaust port (if this is the first death star) then they still would have to get pass all the turrets, tie fighters, (who have 4000 year tech. advantage which would come into play) there still is no guarantee they can hit it. Even some of the rebel pilots didn't believe it was possible plus the first X-win who shot with a targeting computer (no doubt it was more advanced then it's kotor counterpart) still missed. Luke used the force to hit the exhaust port. (and he wouldn't have had the shot if not for Han)
The sith fighter aren't known for having proton torpedos either, for the record. (im sure they may have some of the sort (or we could give them it in a new fair thread) but it had to be brought up)

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Just because the Star Forge did not have a shield then does not mean one is impossible. Usually the Rakata/Sith would rely on the disruptor field, but it is perfectly possible to reconfigure that station to produce a shield (given that the Apex of the Infinite Empire has an Infinite Power Source).
They would have to know when the Empire was coming for that to happen. Not to mention then they would have face even more then before since without the disruptor field to take down a couple of SD’s. But the Empire has man resources available to attack the temple. If they reroute the disruptor field to an energy shield then the planet would be unprotected from being glassed by SDs or blown up by the DS And I would like post the following from the "destruction of Alderaan's" page" from wookieepedia

Although it has been debated, a shield effect is still present in the post-1997 version of Alderaan's destruction. In frames 4 and 5, the glow is concentrated in an area surrounding the point of impact, like shield interactions seen elsewhere in the films. The uniform glow also extends far out into space, beyond the limits of natural atmospheres. The original novelization of the film also has a reference to defense systems on Alderaan, which were as strong as any in the Empire, and helped make the demonstration even more impressive

I will say this again, I believe we need to make a new thread and I welcome anyone to help me make the parameters because there are too many scenarios that can happen here, due to the vagueness of this thread.
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Old 06-25-2009, 05:34 PM   #123
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The Empire wouldn't be able to touch the temple. Any non-Force sensitives wouldn't be able to get near it, and the Empire's Inquisitors and Dark Jedi wouldn't bother trying to negotiate with either of the Rakata clans. Not that they would have the patience to even try to understand the Rakatan language.

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Old 06-25-2009, 05:34 PM   #124
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If you want to create such a thread then message me so we can set up the proper scenario
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Old 06-25-2009, 05:49 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by Te Mirdala Mand'alor View Post
The Empire wouldn't be able to touch the temple. Any non-Force sensitives wouldn't be able to get near it, and the Empire's Inquisitors and Dark Jedi wouldn't bother trying to negotiate with either of the Rakata clans. Not that they would have the patience to even try to understand the Rakatan language.
What's to stop Sidious or Vader from pulling a Revan and ripping the language from their mind ? Or they could lie like Revan did and say they want to destroy it thus having the rakatan open it for them. Or they could tunnel their way underneath into the catacombs... I also think your giving the inquisitors the common stereo type that all dark siders are morons and only tactic is brute force, some of them are quite intelligent.

Edit: Sorry for the double post
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Old 06-25-2009, 08:04 PM   #126
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If I were in charge of the Sith, and had to pick? the Star Forge wins hands-down. While it cannot match the Death Star in sheer kaboom, the Death Star is limited by only being able to hit one target, and be in one place at a time. Meanwhile, the Star Forge can crank out huge fleets, all the better for striking many targets at once, or suffocating the space lanes. Far more useful for the big picture.

Also, there didn't seem to be any two-meter exhaust ports or equivilent therof in the Rakatan design. The closest were the stabilizers, which took several capital ships to take out.


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Old 06-25-2009, 08:12 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by Darth Hord View Post
What's to stop Sidious or Vader from pulling a Revan and ripping the language from their mind ? Or they could lie like Revan did and say they want to destroy it thus having the rakatan open it for them. Or they could tunnel their way underneath into the catacombs... I also think your giving the inquisitors the common stereo type that all dark siders are morons and only tactic is brute force, some of them are quite intelligent.

Edit: Sorry for the double post
Well, the Elders are not stupid. They were already betrayed by Revan and Malak once, and Revan has to prove himself again in order to regain their trust. The only way Sidious or Vader would be able to access the Temple would be to ally themselves with the One, bring him the Tome so his tribe's shamans could open the Temple. Even so, would they even be able to reach the planet? Not only would the planet be swarming with Dark Jedi, Sith Acolytes, Sith Troopers, and Droids (more so due to the invasion) that would guard the temple and prevent any tunneling, but there would already be a massive fleet preventing anyone from getting near the planet.

Also I would point out that Revan's Sith Empire has a lot more Force users than the Galactic Empire. But that's a point for a future thread.


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Old 06-25-2009, 08:40 PM   #128
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Well, the Elders are not stupid. They were already betrayed by Revan and Malak once, and Revan has to prove himself again in order to regain their trust.
After thinking about this I have to somewhat agree, Vader looks menacing in the suit, and Palpatine well we all know what he looks, neither of them look "good." Though I wonder what the Elders reaction would when they hear that they want to destroy the star forge.

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The only way Sidious or Vader would be able to access the Temple would be to ally themselves with the One, bring him the Tome so his tribe's shamans could open the Temple.
Or they could do my theory of digging underneath it. Or if they have enough artillery, I would love to see how much energy the temple's force field could take from various vehicles like the ATST.

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Even so, would they even be able to reach the planet?
There are various ways to get down to the surface.

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Not only would the planet be swarming with Dark Jedi, Sith Acolytes, Sith Troopers, and Droids (more so due to the invasion) that would guard the temple and prevent any tunneling, but there would already be a massive fleet preventing anyone from getting near the planet.
Should the sith fleet try to prevent them from reaching the planet (and thus not getting near the disruptor field) a massive space battle would occur and the facts are the Galactic Empire has a big tech. advantage, more variety of ships and man power (overall) to its advantage.

Quote:
Also I would point out that Revan's Sith Empire has a lot more Force users than the Galactic Empire. But that's a point for a future thread.
Which is both a good and bad thing.

I have a few scenario ideas that I would like to run by you if we do a full scale war thread.

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Old 06-26-2009, 02:44 AM   #129
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Or they could do my theory of digging underneath it. Or if they have enough artillery, I would love to see how much energy the temple's force field could take from various vehicles like the ATST.
Even if they try to dig underneath it, the temple shields would probably stop them. Otherwise they would just come up to the Temples defenses, and no matter how strong both Vader and Sidious are, they will get killed by the hundreds of droids and Dark Jedi. And wasn't the Force Field made by the Force? If so, then it could probably stand against most of the things Vader threw at them.

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There are various ways to get down to the surface.
I have to agree with that, but someone said that the DS was as big as a planet, and therefore wouldn't be caught by the disruptor field, which is not true, the DS is, to quote Ben, the size of a small moon. Which enables it to be caught by the field and be sucked down.

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Originally Posted by Darth Hord View Post
Should the sith fleet try to prevent them from reaching the planet (and thus not getting near the disruptor field) a massive space battle would occur and the facts are the Galactic Empire has a big tech. advantage, more variety of ships and man power (overall) to its advantage.
Yeah, but the Sith ships have some sort of protection against it, according to Carth, and since they don't get caught in it, we have to assume thats true. So the Empire ships would indeed crash, and suddenly, the DS is alone.
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Old 06-26-2009, 03:23 AM   #130
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I'm on the Death Star's part but still, those thousands of Leviathans could destroy it's focusing crystals before it could fire.
You'd have to get through the planetary level shields, and as I pointed out only a Super-Laser or Torpedo Sphere are capable of that so its quite impossible for simple Sith Leviathans to get to the weapon to damage it...

@ Darth Hord interesting tidbit from the novel but that conflicts with some sources I have seen and are accepted about the Death Star's shield system as being listed as a heavy planetary level system. But you are correct the nauseating array of weapons are ample to keep away simple capital ships.


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Old 06-26-2009, 03:28 AM   #131
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You'd have to get through the planetary level shields, and as I pointed out only a Super-Laser or Torpedo Sphere are capable of that so its quite impossible for simple Sith Leviathans to get to the weapon to damage it...
So are you saying that all we saw in Episode IV couldn't have happened? I seemed to remember some big space battle near the station's surface at the end.
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Old 06-26-2009, 03:30 AM   #132
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So are you saying that all we saw in Episode IV couldn't have happened? I seemed to remember some big space battle near the station's surface at the end.
RH may be thinking of the DS II where they had to go to endor disable the shield ect...
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Old 06-26-2009, 03:40 AM   #133
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So are you saying that all we saw in Episode IV couldn't have happened? I seemed to remember some big space battle near the station's surface at the end.
How long since you watched the Ep IV movie?

There is no 'battle' with capital ships, they (Rebels) do send fighters which the DS never even activated the main shield as fighters were not considered a threat, but the Rebels also have plans for a 'weakness' in the battle station and attempt to exploit it in the raid. Now that was what I saw, what was it you saw?

And it still doesn't alter what I said before.


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Old 06-26-2009, 03:59 AM   #134
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Yes, it does. X-wings are NOT Torpedo Spheres. Y-wings are NOT Superlasers. Therefore, it is not impossible for anything but those two weapons to penetrate the DS's defenses.
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Old 06-26-2009, 04:02 AM   #135
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Yes, it does. X-wings are NOT Torpedo Spheres. Y-wings are NOT Superlasers. Therefore, it is not impossible for anything but those two weapons to penetrate the DS's defenses.
Has nothing to do with my points or the points I was responding to, nice try... moving on.


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Old 06-26-2009, 05:27 AM   #136
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Old 06-26-2009, 06:03 AM   #137
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It broke my scouter!
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Old 06-26-2009, 08:17 AM   #138
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The Dark Side of the Force overcomes the need for schematics!
If (yes another if!) Revan or one of his Dark Jedi were to get in their starfighters personally, they would probably be able to find the weakness through the force, then direct the bulk of their starfighter forces to it.

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Old 06-26-2009, 08:43 AM   #139
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Even if they try to dig underneath it, the temple shields would probably stop them.
There's nothing to suggest that they go under ground. I'm convinced that forcefield is only ground level(the force field doesn't stop dark jedi from entering the temple itself from the top and im talking about force field not disruptor field), hell it maybe only on the door, it's not like anyone who crashed landed before has any heavy weapons, nor would the said weapons be from the future.

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and no matter how strong both Vader and Sidious are, they will get killed by the hundreds of droids and Dark Jedi.
No numbers were ever given, for the temple. Vader and Sidious wouldn't come alone. And in the resurrection comic(which features a good battle between Darth Maul and Darth Vader and it is cannon), Sidious's lightning turns 3 or 4 prophets of the darkside to ash. He has such great control of his lightning that when Moff Kadir and his cadre of loyal storm troopers went to kill Palpatine he used his lightning to kill them all but he directed i to avoid his own red guard who were trying to protect him. So the numbers of "average joe dark jedi and no name sith, wouldn't be enough to stop Vader and Sidious, and their reinforcements which would be considerable due to their importance.

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And wasn't the Force Field made by the Force?
It's was never confirmed to be, the name itself, "force field" by itself doesn't mean anything though the ritual could suggest it being created of the force. Though I'm not sure how well this would work, against Vader(or god help it Sidious himself) due to his power. I mean we have no idea how powerful Revan was when he first visited the temple, plus there is nothing to suggest that it could stop Vader from tking the entire temple, remember Revan needed to get inside, Vader needs to destroy it.

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I have to agree with that, but someone said that the DS was as big as a planet, and therefore wouldn't be caught by the disruptor field, which is not true, the DS is, to quote Ben, the size of a small moon. Which enables it to be caught by the field and be sucked down.
It's too big to get sucked down, it has it's own gravitational pull, if the disruptor field would do anything, it would probably overload it's systems and cause it to get stuck in Lehon's orbit but I don't see how how. And this is assuming that they don't destroy the planet first. Not to mention that if it did fall the planet is done for. So the star forge wouldn't have it's first (and most effective) line of defense.

Quote:
Yeah, but the Sith ships have some sort of protection against it, according to Carth, and since they don't get caught in it, we have to assume thats true. So the Empire ships would indeed crash, and suddenly, the DS is alone.
My whole point here was that the sith fleet weren't going to let them get near the planet(which was the point I was addressing) which is where the disruptor field comes from, they would be fighting beyond the planet and out of range... They might lose a few ships but once they realize it, there is nothing to stop them from glassing the planet from a safe range outside it's orbit.

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@ Darth Hord interesting tidbit from the novel but that conflicts with some sources I have seen and are accepted about the Death Star's shield system as being listed as a heavy planetary level system. But you are correct the nauseating array of weapons are ample to keep away simple capital ships.
I'm curious for the sources. I guess it could be that the death star wasn't quite completed in the novel and the shield may have been the very last edition.

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The Dark Side of the Force overcomes the need for schematics!
If (yes another if!) Revan or one of his Dark Jedi were to get in their starfighters personally, they would probably be able to find the weakness through the force, then direct the bulk of their starfighter forces to it.
No offense but this is the stuff that gets frustrating to deal with it. Your entire argument is "Revan is uber" and therefore he will magically become an ace fighter pilot find a small exhaust port on 160 km (if this is the first death star which hasn't been confirmed to be) all the while avoiding thousands of tie fighters, turbo lasers,ion canons,etc. And the same goes for the dark jedi, none of them were noted to be ace pilots and they would be to preoccupied to look for a weakness with their eyes let alone trying to concentrate to use the force. This "what if" is not going to happen.

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Old 06-26-2009, 09:15 AM   #140
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I'm not saying that "Revan is uber". I'm saying that a skilled Force sensitive could probably find the weakness. Imagine what Luke could have done if he had been as powerful in that battle as he had been in some later works. Take what happened between Jaina and Caedus, Luke was -over a long distance- able to cloud the mind of a Sith Lord enough that he thought he was fighting Luke instead of his sister. This power has nothing to do with the battle mentioned, but it was used to give you an example of Lukes power. Imagine what Revan could do at his level. For all we know he could have been a master of shatterpoints like Mace Windu.

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Old 06-26-2009, 09:27 AM   #141
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I'm not saying that "Revan is uber". I'm saying that a skilled Force sensitive could probably find the weakness.
I apologize if this post and the last sound a bit snippy.

How do you expect them to concentrate? They have way have to deal with all of this from the death star alone(exclude the ground vehicles and such)
Scattered across the Death Star's surface were thousands of weapons emplacements: a total of 10,000 turbolaser batteries, 2,500 laser cannons, 2,500 ion cannons and 768 tractor beam projectors. The station carried a crew of 265,675, plus 52,276 gunners, 607,360 troops, 25,984 stormtroopers, 42,782 ship support staff, and 167,216 pilots and support crew. The station also carried 7,200 starfighters, four strike cruisers, 3,600 assault shuttles, 1,400 AT-ATs, 1,400 AT-STs, 1,860 drop ships, and more. (source is the sw databank


This isn't including what stars destroyers would add to the battle

Quote:
Imagine what Luke could have done if he had been as powerful in that battle as he had been in some later works. Take what happened between Jaina and Caedus, Luke was -over a long distance- able to cloud the mind of a Sith Lord enough that he thought he was fighting Luke instead of his sister.
Luke was solely focusing on the duel, and the duel alone. He wouldn't have other distractions, even the slightest slip up when your concentration is on the battle could lead to your death but you expect Revan to divert his at the very least some of attention from the incoming star fighters and antifighter turrets to find a weakness on moon size battle station.

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Imagine what Revan could do at his level
Luke by LOTF is alot more powerful then Revan, not to mention if Revan even attempts this, his navy would be under the command of lesser beings (and god help them if Grand Admiral Thrawn was in command of the imperials.) But even by LOTF Luke isn't that powerful to do what you suggest in the middle of space battle.

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For all we know he could have been a master of shatterpoints like Mace Windu.
We could only speculate at best, until he has shown the ability or has been stated by a credible source to have it, then as far as I'm concerned he doesn't.
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Old 06-26-2009, 01:48 PM   #142
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Star Forge beacuse it is a factory


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Old 06-27-2009, 02:39 AM   #143
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I'm curious for the sources. I guess it could be that the death star wasn't quite completed in the novel and the shield may have been the very last edition.
The Star Wars A New Hope novel mentioned it being unassailable in a conventional means, during the part of the analysis of the plans Leia had on Yavin, and it was re-iterated in most of the other printed materials available on the Death Star (though some may have been fan made)... my primary sources are the statements made in the novel/movie and the RPG materials which give quite technical answers to what is what, but to be 100% honest the RPG sources are, as I know full well, not infallible themselves (They dropped the ball on the Executor in its stated length), but so far the RPG data on the Death Star are pretty spot on.

Either way the canon movie itself mentions that the Death Star is extremely well defended from a conventional attack, now whilst snub-fighters were not considered a threat due to the massive amounts of carried fighters the station boasted. (Not the Death Star's fault or design flaw that Tarkin was an arrogant @ss and never scrambled his fighters. )

The scale of the Death Star itself would lend to it having/needing to have a Planetary scale shield generator... technically the biggest power consumption would be for the DS to enter hyperspace, a heavy planetary shield system and even the Super-Laser combined would pale in comparison to that one system/feat.


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Old 06-27-2009, 04:04 AM   #144
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I'm offline for a few days and I miss another epic pissing contest of gargantuan geekosity.



Oh, and Death Star by a parsec.


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Old 06-27-2009, 05:04 AM   #145
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[I] Scattered across the Death Star's surface were thousands of weapons emplacements: a total of 10,000 turbolaser batteries, 2,500 laser cannons, 2,500 ion cannons and 768 tractor beam projectors. The station carried a crew of 265,675, plus 52,276 gunners, 607,360 troops, 25,984 stormtroopers, 42,782 ship support staff, and 167,216 pilots and support crew. The station also carried 7,200 starfighters, four strike cruisers, 3,600 assault shuttles, 1,400 AT-ATs, 1,400 AT-STs, 1,860 drop ships, and more.
The turrets and cannons on the surface are spread out also, and since the DS is so large, they would not have to worry about 10,000 turbolasers, more like 500 at the most, as long as they stay in the same place. And the troops and AT-STs, AT-ATs, and dropships would not do anything to help, since they are stashed inside.
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Old 06-27-2009, 08:12 AM   #146
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The turrets and cannons on the surface are spread out also, and since the DS is so large, they would not have to worry about 10,000 turbolasers, more like 500 at the most, as long as they stay in the same place. And the troops and AT-STs, AT-ATs, and dropships would not do anything to help, since they are stashed inside.
Um, I know that already? It's says that they were "Scattered across the Death Star's surface"

I was posting it's statistics originally for everyone to see and my point still stands. And the second time I posted (which was solely about space combat) this I told him to "exclude the ground vehicles and such"
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Old 06-27-2009, 02:23 PM   #147
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Star Forge, I will make a super armada and take down the Death Star with it.



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Old 06-27-2009, 06:48 PM   #148
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Imagne both their powers combined that would be crazy


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Old 06-27-2009, 07:36 PM   #149
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The Death Star would win in a face-to-face (Or rather, space station-to-space station) battle, but the Star Forge would win in a war to conquest the galaxy.

Death Star can blow things up, yes. It could probably blow the Star Forge up in a battle. But the Star Forge creates unlimited amount of ships, the Empire would be outnumbered within a few months/a year.


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Old 06-27-2009, 08:53 PM   #150
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The Death Star would win in a face-to-face (Or rather, space station-to-space station) battle, but the Star Forge would win in a war to conquest the galaxy.

Death Star can blow things up, yes. It could probably blow the Star Forge up in a battle. But the Star Forge creates unlimited amount of ships, the Empire would be outnumbered within a few months/a year.
Nicely stated which is why i would choose the star forge


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Old 06-28-2009, 08:56 AM   #151
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This will probably be my last post in this thread. And this post really has nothing to do with the battle itself but it is about the star forge and how I believe the time at which it can produce ships is being greatly exaggerated. And I will explain below.

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But the Star Forge creates unlimited amount of ships, the Empire would be outnumbered within a few months/a year.
I highly doubt that and I will explain why below, using the facts that we know.

Fact 1: The Mandalorian Wars, ended in 3,960 BBY and Revan and Malak took one-third of the republic fleet with them. This means that the republic only has two-thirds of its fleet/navy remaining and a number of those ships would naturally be damaged and may have not have been worth repairing.

Fact 2: A year later (3,959 BBY) Revan and Malak invade the republic with a massive armada. The first known/major battle was a surprise attack against the repulic military base at(3,958 BBY, technically it's the 2nd year)) Foerost where they captured a substantial portion of the ships docked and those ships joined their sith navy. This means now that the republic has under two-thirds of its fleet/navy to combat the sith.

Fact 3:Sometime in 3,957, Malak betrays Revan, and becomes DLOTS.

Fact 4: Three years into the war (3,956 BBY) the events of kotor happen and the sith are defeated, and the star forge is blown up. Now during this time this sith are preparing to form their invasion fleet (s) to attack the inner rim/core worlds. (the argument from a sith and republic trooper on Manaa,also says much)

So in the 3-4 year period in which the star forge was under Revan/Malak's control they didn't have enough ships to make a successful bid (and have enough ships to protect their current territories.) on the inner/core planets until the very end. Yet you expect them out number the Galactic Empire within a year? This is highly unlikely considering that they have more ship yards/ship building facilities then just Republic (less than two-thirds of its original it had at the end of another war, so its forces/resources were pretty drained) and have a bigger (not to mention 4000 yeas more advance) fleet to begin with. And the manpower the sith would need for a navy to take on the GE would thus have to been staggering and may even slow up their war effort finding enough men to properly man the ships. (not to mention their skills of those recruits would be in question)


So in-conclusion I hoped I put some perspective of how fast the star forge produces ships. And I how feel people use the title of the infinite fleet erroneously, and how fast they think it can produce ships.

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Old 06-28-2009, 09:42 AM   #152
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Revan did not use the Star Forge to its fullest capacity. He knew of its corrupting nature and only used it to replace his fleet as needed. Given that Revan was regarded as a genius of battle, it would be likely to assume that he didn't create an overwhelming fleet that could do more than defeat the Republic. When Malak took over, the capacity of the Star Forge tripled later in the war. And don't forget that Malak was all muscle and no brains when it came to war.

He likely used brute strength and overwhelming numbers like Napolian, making every victory more costly to the Sith than the Republic in terms of losses. I would assume that since Malak took over, he didn't know how to harness the Star Forge's vast capacity at first; but that he had always been able to just throw ships and droids away recklessly. Using tactics such as those compared to Revan's would go a long way to explain that the Republic was outnumbered, but that they used superior tactics to achieve a higher exchange ratio.
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Old 06-28-2009, 11:47 AM   #153
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With Malak in control, I think Death Star would win. Malak has absolutely no tactical side, he belives in sheer power - however, capital ships wouldn't get through the DS's shield.
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Old 06-28-2009, 12:03 PM   #154
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Revan did not use the Star Forge to its fullest capacity. He knew of its corrupting nature and only used it to replace his fleet as needed. Given that Revan was regarded as a genius of battle, it would be likely to assume that he didn't create an overwhelming fleet that could do more than defeat the Republic. When Malak took over, the capacity of the Star Forge tripled later in the war. And don't forget that Malak was all muscle and no brains when it came to war.
Revan limited his personal contact with it, there is nothing to suggest that it didn't keep turning out warships. As we see the "full capacity" of the star forge involves it using feed on the darskide of captives, there is nothing to suggest that it all over a sudden stopped building ship and given's Revan genius it would have been smart to build more ships. The whole war effort was partially driven to protect the galaxy from the ancient sith empire (who based on the actions of Revan and Traya's comments, made the invasion seem pretty close, or at least in their minds). Like I said in my post the republic was down at least one third of its entire navy. The more ships Revan had at his disposal the easier it would be to spread the lines of the (already war tired) republic to a thread.

Also I pointed out the war 3 years long. Revan had 1/3 of the republic ships +what the SF created in the year prior to the war. Even Revan slowed it down somewhat (which I already shown why it was illogical) Malak tripling its rate of construction would make up for that. Plus they captured a fleet at Foerost, and I'd imagine they took over some of he shipyards in the outer/mid rim.

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He likely used brute strength and overwhelming numbers like Napolian, making every victory more costly to the Sith than the Republic in terms of losses. I would assume that since Malak took over, he didn't know how to harness the Star Forge's vast capacity at first; but that he had always been able to just throw ships and droids away recklessly. Using tactics such as those compared to Revan's would go a long way to explain that the Republic was outnumbered, but that they used superior tactics to achieve a higher exchange ratio.
What is your source that Malak relied solely on "brute strength?" There is nothing to suggest that he had "no brains" as you put it. Yes, he was reckless and put himself into danger on the front lines (not an entirely bad trait for moral in battle to see your general fighting next to you) at times in the mandalorian wars. Sure he ordered planets to be glassed which spread the reputation of his ruthlessness and for people to fear him.(Grand Moff Tarkin would have loved him) But. "no brains," his betrayal of Revan shows he wasn't exactly a moron. Then you have to consider the fact that Revan or Malak can't be everywhere in the war. They had the same exact generals/admirals commanding the troops/ships on the frontlines.
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Old 06-28-2009, 04:07 PM   #155
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Darth Hord: Interesting facts, but I do agree with Darth_Yuthura; Revan didn't use it to its full capacity.

Also, it had to build ships pretty fast, otherwise it wouldn't need to drain power from a sun, and the Rakata wouldn't be calling it "Pride of the Infinite Empire".

Also, you mention the 4000 years technology gap. The Star Forge was designed to build Rakatan ships. How can you know that the Rakatan ships weren't much stronger than the regular ships (Hammerhead and so on) at the time?
And feeding it with blueprints for Star Destroyers shouldn't be to hard.


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Old 06-28-2009, 04:26 PM   #156
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Darth Hord: Interesting facts, but I do agree with Darth_Yuthura; Revan didn't use it to its full capacity.
There is nothing to suggest that full capacity, Revan avoided contact so he didn't end up like the rakatan, there is nothing to suggest that he stopped it from building ships.

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Also, it had to build ships pretty fast, otherwise it wouldn't need to drain power from a sun,
...It has to be somewhat comparable in size to the death star. It's needs constant energy to fuel the machines that build the ships,defense placements,power,stablizers,etc.

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and the Rakata wouldn't be calling it "Pride of the Infinite Empire".
This has nothing to do with the rate at which it creates ships.

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lso, you mention the 4000 years technology gap. The Star Forge was designed to build Rakatan ships.
According to wookieepedia the infinite empire dissolved in 25,200 BBY. In LOTF, Caedus calls Confederation ships from the clone wars era to be outdated and "ancient hardware" (or something along those lines)

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How can you know that the Rakatan ships weren't much stronger than the regular ships (Hammerhead and so on) at the time?
We have never seen any Rakatan ships, the sith interdictor (leviathan) and the Centurion-class battlecruiser (Ravager) were both made in the republic originally not the star forge.

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And feeding it with blueprints for Star Destroyers shouldn't be to hard.
One on one the imperial class star destroyers are better armed for combat then either capital ship in Revan's empire.(and the centurion's haven't been seen to be mass produced either) It will be extremely hard to take one down, plus t the systems/controls inside the star destroyers may very well be too advanced and unfamiliar for Revan's sith. Luke Skywalker has trouble flying starfighters (let alone massive warships,that needs all crew members to be competent) that he isn't familiar with (in fact he crashes one in the thrawn trilogy because of this), how do you expect them to understand the controls of 4000 yr. advanced. tech. the learning curve for an entire empire would be huge.(even if they tried to add the current tech to their current ship classes,there is no gaurantee those ship dimensions would allow it to be installed and they still have a huge learning curve against them) And in that time their current (outdated) ships would be suffering huge casualties.

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Old 07-02-2009, 11:07 AM   #157
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ah, but you aren't counting on droids to fly the ships (at first). It was my understanding that the star forge starts poping out droids with the ships, thats how I figured they manned the ships that fast too.




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Old 07-02-2009, 12:33 PM   #158
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Assuming this is the first Death Star, it would win 7/10 times.

1. "Revan didn't use the SF to the full capacity" - So? If he didn't use it to the full capacity, we don't know what the full capacity is. Therefore, we can't assume how strong it would be, so you can't use it in determining the outcome of this fight.
2. "They could find out where the weak spot is" - How? The SF's best bet would to send out a massive amount of ships that continually fired across the entire DS until they hit something. And I doubt it would be able to send out enough ships in time to cover the entire DS.

The Death Star only has to fire one shot. That shot could tear through any ships that could get in the way, hit the Star Forge right at its core, and end the battle. Other than the ships that it produces, the SF has very few actual defenses, none of which could stop the superlaser.

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Old 07-02-2009, 12:35 PM   #159
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There is nothing to suggest that full capacity, Revan avoided contact so he didn't end up like the rakatan, there is nothing to suggest that he stopped it from building ships.
It is explicitly stated that Revan only used the Star Forge to replenish his fleet as needed. He was careful not to depend too heavily upon it, which explained why he sought to capture more 'conventional' Republic shipyards and production facilities during the war. Either that goes to show that the Star Forge wasn't indeed that powerful, or Revan sought to depend upon it as little as possible.

And clearly if manpower is going to be an issue with the Star Forge, then the Death Star must also be judged in this regard. The Star Forge is a factory that builds weapons and produces warships where the Death Star is a weapon that demands resources, manpower, fuel, and other upkeep. How would you be able to keep the Death Star operating if you can't fuel it, pay for maintenance, or to keep it under guard?

There was once a description of the M1 being the most lethal and unstoppable tank in the world, but that because it used a gas turbine engine, it was vulnerable. You didn't target the tank, but the trucks that carried the fuel and you've beaten it. That is why I would say the Star Forge wins this debate.
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Old 07-02-2009, 12:49 PM   #160
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If he didn't use it to the full capacity, we don't know what the full capacity is. Therefore, we can't assume how strong it would be, so you can't use it in determining the outcome of this fight.
And yet you insist that the Death Star would win? You have made two conflicting statements.

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The Death Star only has to fire one shot. That shot could tear through any ships that could get in the way, hit the Star Forge right at its core, and end the battle.
Did you watch "Return of the Jedi"? The second Death Star used its superlaser during the battle with the Rebellion, and each shot only destroyed one ship. If the superlaser has the power that you say it has, it would have just fired a single blast towards the heart of the fleet, thus destroying the Rebellion's command ships, and ending the battle.

This poll is invalid. We don't know enough about the Star Forge to make a proper argument. For all we know the Star Forge could have put up a giant shield of Dark Side energy to block the superlaser, and then blasted the Death Star with supersized Force Lightning.

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