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Old 07-18-2009, 06:49 AM   #1
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MI:SE Visuals

in many, many scenes there are background elements (pixles) left over from the original game. I wonder why this is so! Here's an example (one of MANY examples)...



If you press F10 you can literally watch those pixels not change at all (they ARE the original pixels!)
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Old 07-18-2009, 07:06 AM   #2
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Well most people seem to have decided they forgot to remove the original layer, or they were lazy.

I however think it's quite nice they've managed to blend new artwork with the original. I honestly didn't notice any of the original artwork being present, but I might not have been holding up the remake to as much scrutiny as the others.
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Old 07-18-2009, 08:14 AM   #3
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Personally I wish they built it off the floppy disk VGA version. "Insert Disk 22 and press button to continue".

Not to mention this little jem that was removed from the CD version (the button is still there but it doesn't do anything):

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Old 07-18-2009, 08:29 AM   #4
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Yes the pixels showing are very strange, but when playing on a HDTV an sitting on the couch they are not noticeable.

Can't believe they didn't either remove that layer or as least use a good brush filter on them to hide the pixels.

However the pixels don't bother me much at al. Maybe if I was playing on my PC they would, but I have to stand up and walk closer to the TV to see them.

What bothers me some is the sloppy work on SOME of the backgrounds. Most of the backgrounds look great, but here and there you can see some ugly mistakes. Like the rope in the shop that disappears over the door. Or the top of the mountain behind Meat Hooks house (which is cut off). Most of the sloppy work is in the forest, lot's of bad cut and pasting. Like bad overlaps that don't line up, which can be seen in the image yu posted too.

Thing is, most of this could be fixed with very little effort. Not sure how easy it would be for them to release a patch to fix the released versions. On Monday I think I'll start a thread of all the mistakes that need to be fixed. That might help get them to fix them, I mean they are still working on porting it to more platforms, least they can do is fix it before it hits the iPhone PS3 or Wii!
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Old 07-18-2009, 10:31 AM   #5
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The ugliest forest bugs might come from the artists being "too loose" with their new stuff and then the guy who had to cut the art up into the different background slices noticed that some stuff wasn't going to line up. Maybe the artists couldn't be bothered anymore and then some ugly cutting and pasting happened.
Still: The artists themselves seem to have left the original base layer on when exporting some of the backgrounds. A simple "stylize" filter in photoshop would've worked wonders...hmm who knows?
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Old 07-18-2009, 01:24 PM   #6
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It's hilarious how because it's 1080p, certain fans think it's harder to animate and make things appear smoothly through the power of good drawing, because I guess we are at a resolution to scrutinize every detail...

Yet the same fans, when presented with lazy, sloppy still images with obvious cutout flaws and inability to hide their back layers in Photoshop will say it's not noticeable or distracting at all, EVEN ON A BIG SCREEN GUYS!

Give me a break.

Good Chris Remo quotes on this stuff:
http://idlethumbs.net/forums/showthread.php?t=6624
Quote:
I just loaded this up for a bit, and god what a misfire. It's very frustrating--the addition of more ambient sound and that kind of thing makes the modern gamer in me really want to use the special edition version, but then I have to look at some of the worst amateur-hour graphics I've seen in ages. Most of the backgrounds are pretty good, but then they'll spoil it with awful signs and background text that looks like it's been added with Microsoft Paint, and absolutely godawful sprites and animation.

I genuinely wish they wouldn't have made this, and just released the game with the optional filters like they did with the other Steam games. Yes, this game still has the option, but the problem with offering the option is that most people are going to use the new one--after all, that's what the additional $5 for. I used it most of the time, and I don't even like it. It's hard to fight that instinct to go for voice acting and higher resolution, even if that higher resolution is used to display garbage. If the option simply weren't presented, it wouldn't be a problem.

And Christ, those Guybrush and Elaine closeups. I know Ron Gilbert regretted the realistic portrait style they used in the original game, and I completely see where he's coming from, but this is NOT an improvement. Jesus. Some of the new portraits are better than others, but the two most important ones sure aren't among those.

God I hope they don't do this to Monkey Island 2. That game doesn't need it even in a theoretical sense. The soundtrack is much fuller, the graphics are much better, and the whole thing just feels about a generation beyond Monkey 1 technically.

Man I can't even believe how disappointing this release was for me.

...

I did sort of address this in my post. Yes, they should be available. No, they should not be available like this. This game should be released either in its original form, or, to put it bluntly, in a revised form that's actually good rather than just acceptable or mediocre.

To me, the main problem with this remake isn't for the people who have already played Monkey Island. The bigger problem is for the people who haven't, and will from now on have this crap as their mental image for the first game. That's the real shame. I'm not blaming newcomers for playing with the supposed "enhancements" -- as I said, the draw to use the new stuff is extremely strong, even if it's not actually good. That's exactly the problem. Newcomers WILL use the new stuff, and that new stuff really changes the game in a way that I think unfortunately detracts from it.

I've seen plenty of posts from people who have played the Steam releases of Loom, Fate of Atlantis, and The Dig who never played those games when they were released, and that's great. I wish this game had been given that treatment instead. Those games still feature smoothing, and that filter is handled MUCH better than I've seen it done in some cases. They certainly look a lot better than the Monkey Island SE does.
I couldn't agree more, but he's a journalist so he types, writes, and says things 30x better than I ever would, so it's good when he says it.

Last edited by SyntheticGerbil; 07-18-2009 at 01:31 PM.
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Old 07-18-2009, 02:16 PM   #7
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Wow, I couldnt agree less with Remo's review. Since its release i have played through it 3 times on 360 and am currently playing though on PC and didnt notice a single one of these issues until they were pointed out.

I guess i was a little more concerned with playing a remake of a game i love than picking apart the flaws uselessly (smiley's make everything alright)


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Old 07-18-2009, 02:16 PM   #8
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hmm, he is partially right, but he sure is in total rant mode there.

The main problem is the balancing act between building on top of the old game code with its limited framerate and predefined room dimensions and the ridiculously high resolution the new game is presented in. Reduce them down to 1024x or CMI resolution (640x480) and you won't notice any bugs (except the lame fonts on some of the backgrounds).
Is there any other adventure game out there, where you can play in native 1920x1080p resolution and the backgrounds are available at that exact resolution?

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Old 07-18-2009, 02:19 PM   #9
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I've bought SE aswell now, still downloading, fingers crossed.

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Old 07-18-2009, 04:39 PM   #10
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Well, I'm starting to build up a pretty good idea of why Lucasarts abandoned their Adventure game community.
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Old 07-18-2009, 04:50 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by xgfx View Post
Well, I'm starting to build up a pretty good idea of why Lucasarts abandoned their Adventure game community.
Hee. :~

Unfortunately, any community is just as likely to knock the games they profess to love. That's just human nature - at least we care!

I haven't played the special edition myself, so I can't comment on its merits. But some of the mistakes that have been pointed out do smack of laziness, and "but you wouldn't be able to see them at 800x600!" isn't an excuse.


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Old 07-18-2009, 08:50 PM   #12
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Yeah, it seems to me that some people need to wake up and smell the roses. I can see why someone might not like the new art style for the closeups and such. I can see some of the other complaints about it but the fact remains that this was clearly done with a lot of care (even if when you zoom in you might be able to see a few cracks (which I, too, didn't even notice even though I've played the game 3 times through)). And the fact also remains that this is what fans have been asking for for years and had lost all hope of getting.

It may be, to some people, not what they had hoped but to dismiss the whole endeavour as if they hadn't even tried is a bit overly-hostile, and to present his opinion that it just isn't any good visually as if it is incontrovertible fact is silly - I liked the look a lot, and know plenty of people who feel the same way about it.
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Old 07-18-2009, 09:19 PM   #13
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I just love it. Does it have some warts and all? Yes. But it's completely moddable and with time and care, those fans complaining about some of the old pixels shining through or some closeups not being up to snuff can create their own version.
It has superb speech and music, nice ambience sounds, high-res gfx, neat little fx and is a perfect basis for some ultimate clean, bugfree fan-edition sometime in the future.
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Old 07-18-2009, 09:28 PM   #14
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I'm waiting for a full featured editor so I can start on the CMI style graphics mod.
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Old 07-18-2009, 09:31 PM   #15
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But it's completely moddable and with time and care, those fans complaining about some of the old pixels shining through or some closeups not being up to snuff can create their own version.
Fans shouldn't have to do that.
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Old 07-18-2009, 10:15 PM   #16
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Well they don't have to. It's not like the game is broken or anything. (and there are fans out there that do even that - fix broken games with their own patches)
If the Monkey Island fans really are so anal and angered by some of the sloppyness in the backgrounds, they have all the means to fix or alter them. I think that's fair.
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Old 07-18-2009, 10:38 PM   #17
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Yeah has anyone made a patch to play the original with the new sound?

Or redid the Guybrush sprite?


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Old 07-18-2009, 10:47 PM   #18
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Take "Vampire: Bloodlines" for example. There were some dedicated fans that fixed everything with that game: From game design problems, gfx glitches, bugs, inbalances, to graphic enhancments, you name it - everything. The unofficial patches for that game are worlds better than the official game or it's patches.
It took months and years for that.
Monkey fans get a brand new version of their beloved game where - let's be real here: At least 80% of the stuff is near perfect. We are now 2 days after launch, the tools to redo EVERYTHING in the game are maybe 2 weeks away. Redoing textures, art and sprites can be done already.
Fixing sliding or redoing scripting /the UI is possible too, it just takes some time to decode the .XML stuff.
Modding MI:SE will be way easier than for any 3d game. The workload can even be split apart neatly due to the separated nature of the background art.
So don't be bitter. Embrace the Monkey! And if you are serious about hating some of the sloppy parts - you can change it. YOU can change the world. DO IT

I know what you are thinking: "We shouldn't have to do that!" You are right. In a perfect world, we would've gotten a perfect MONKEY ISLAND:SE. But you know what? We don't live in a perfect world.
In a perfect world we shouldn't have to remind our politicians not do do corruption, prevent corporations from running amok with their monopoly status, stop nuclear weapons from spreading or prevent environmental pollution. But we have to do it. Cause it's our world and we are the ones most dedicated about it. And now everbody sing with me in honor of the king of pop: They don't care about us! let's heal the world!

Last edited by Guy.brush; 07-18-2009 at 10:56 PM.
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Old 07-19-2009, 01:39 AM   #19
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Yeah, it seems to me that some people need to wake up and smell the roses. I can see why someone might not like the new art style for the closeups and such. I can see some of the other complaints about it but the fact remains that this was clearly done with a lot of care (even if when you zoom in you might be able to see a few cracks (which I, too, didn't even notice even though I've played the game 3 times through)).
Actually, much of it looks rushed to my eye. The UI is just not up to scratch (have you freed Otis yet? The SE UI makes that task incredibly more difficuilt, while also giving new players a dead-giveaway as to how the puzzle is completed by popping an icon of the mug in the lower-right corner!) Some backgrounds are just great - and others ... like the Church - are incomplete (the flames don't even move) and are a much lower quality.

I look forward to seeing fan mods for this game, but unfortunatly until ScummVM supports this game (IF they ever do) that won't help the UI.
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Old 07-19-2009, 01:46 AM   #20
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The UI seems designed in some sort of .XML format. It should be possible for someone a little experienced to alter it. Remember OBLIVION? ****ty consolized UI made tons better by mods due to the fact that it was based on pretty straight forward .XML descriptions.
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Old 07-19-2009, 02:10 AM   #21
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I couldn't agree more with the Remo quotes posted above. As an artist with primary interests in cartooning, animation, and graphic design, aesthetic (and not resolution) is my primary interest. The old LucasArts titles, in spite of the tiny matrix they occupied visually, absolutely nailed the aesthetics they aimed for, and were beautifully designed, rendered and animated by professional artists.

Many, many moments of the SE are just depressingly bad, not because of stylistic choices but because of poor design decisions and, occasionally (with apologies to the fine people at LA,) simply amateur art.

Every design has been made less specific, every pose watered down and made mannequin-like. Some animation frames that were unique and separate drawings in the original game are replaced with cheap copy-and-paste hackjobs, leaving the SCUMM Bar looking more like a butcher shop. Take, for example, the male and female couple in the bottom-right portion of the first screen of that environment: in the original graphics, the couple goes from a relaxed position looking toward the viewer to a slightly more specific (startled?) position looking off to the left, with a third unique drawing as an inbetween. The animation has character and carefully-constructed weight.

In the Special Edition, however, a single awkward drawing (looking toward the viewer) is present, and is changed very slightly to generate an "animation." In the first and longest frame, the woman's eyes are inexplicably closed and the man's mouth nearly shut. In the inbetween frame, the woman's eyes are open and both their arms are rotated slightly from the elbow down, with no other change. In the brief final position, the woman's eyes are open and the man's jaw a bit slack. That's it.

It is very important to note that this is (at least probably) not a product of stylistic choice or simple oversight. This was done in order to produce a higher-resolution graphic quickly and cheaply. And, this is not a single, nitpicky instance, but a pervasive tendency. Call it nitpicking anyway if you wish, but from the (subjective) standpoint of a relatively knowledgeable individual, many of the game's visual assets are simply and obviously rushed, awkward, stilted and ineffectual. Graphically, save for its increased resolution and some pretty fun special effects, the Special Edition is not superior and is in many ways objectively inferior.

Of course, a few concessions: the game's artists obviously had to work within the boundaries of the game's original animation framerates, excusing in part the awkwardness of animations such as the swordfighting scenes and any instance in which Guybrush has to tumble around, such as in the circus and the mansion (this does not, however, excuse the extremely simplified gestures in these scenes.) And, as I think everyone can agree, the game's music, sounds, and voices are just great. I was really surprised, in fact, with how much additional humor was injected into scenes such as the mansion by these often wonderful effects.

Finally, I really don't mean any disrespect to the game's artists. They've made some big mistakes and their designers some bad decisions, but I'm sure they're perfectly capable artists and lovely people to boot. Perhaps they're not being paid enough to put in more effort?
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Old 07-19-2009, 02:37 AM   #22
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Ok, now we're getting somewhere.
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Old 07-19-2009, 04:32 AM   #23
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Heh, try doing that in the same lighting style as SE.

Also, I agree with Guy.brush.


I'm still in part one, when I finish the game I'll post a full review what I think.



Quote:
and "but you wouldn't be able to see them at 800x600!" isn't an excuse.
You can actually.

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Old 07-19-2009, 04:46 AM   #24
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Heh, try doing that in the same lighting style as SE.
kinda defeats the purpose
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Old 07-19-2009, 08:09 AM   #25
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I've finished the Special Edition now.

Here's what I think.

Overall I enjoyed it a lot, the voice acting is generally good and some backgrounds are beautifull. Of course it doesn't come without it's problems, like many already pointed out, the interface is horrid. I'm not so much bothered by the fact that you need to use the keyboard. But the inventory was just not practically funtional, especially for the Grog mug switch puzzle. You can't even see what the heck you're doing.

Regarding the voices, Guybrush was spot on, I also rather liked the shopkeeper, LeChuck, Herman Toothrot and Otis. But some other voices just didn't do the trick imo. Carla and Elaine were rather badly voiced, I also didn't like the Pirates of low moral fiber, Cobb and some other pirates.

The graphics are rather odd, some of the characters and backgrounds are done beautifully, while others are horribly rushed and rather bad. Surprisingly the Guybrush sprite didn't bother me as much as I had expected, though I still don't like his new design, same with Lechuck actually, most other characters looked rather good.
Backgrounds like outside the Scummbar and the map of Melee Island are really good, while the church and forest look sloppy.

Here are a few examples of sloppyness:

this is probably the most frequent occuring graphical problem, sprites not clipping correctly with teh background due to changes in proportions of both.


It looks like they just blurred the sky, you can see lines where the low res colours used to intersect.


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kinda defeats the purpose
Eh, no? It's a different design, a better one. But flat lighting doesnt fit the other characters and backgrounds. Thus, using this design, and making it fit with the rest results in a way better Guybrush than the official SE one.

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Old 07-19-2009, 09:31 AM   #26
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I still think that part of the criticism towards the SE comes from "raped my childhood" syndrome. Unfortunately, the Lucasians have plenty of experience in that field
You have to admit that the style of the first Monkey Island is less defined than 2 and 3.
Now what should they have done? The exaggerated proportions of some of the backgrounds (as pointed out above) already generate clipping problems when using the original game code. Drawing less exaggerated would've created an even bigger rift between 1 and the other 2,3,4. And tweaking or changing the game code would've opened a whole other can of worms and reason for fan out cry.

I wholeheartily agree that some of the background art is sloppy. But the overall style fits nicely I think. I wouldn't have wanted a less or more cartoonified version and that means they pretty much hit their target.
In this day and age, when probably 95% of all the people working at LucasArts are no skilled 2D animators anymore, I think the endresult is completely acceptable. It could've been far, far worse.

btw that picture above: Might NOT be the artists' fault. The visible banding lines might be DXT texture artifacts. Those new textures are way above the 256 of the original but still only 65000 colors. Try doing a nice and smooth gradient with that and then come back

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Old 07-19-2009, 10:56 AM   #27
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But flat lighting doesnt fit the other characters and backgrounds.
It will.
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Old 07-19-2009, 05:17 PM   #28
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Well obviously then you'll need to change all the character sprites, which would be considderable more work.

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Old 07-19-2009, 06:01 PM   #29
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I think that is his plan though.

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Old 07-19-2009, 06:34 PM   #30
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And a good plan at that!

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Old 07-19-2009, 06:57 PM   #31
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I've finished the Special Edition now.

I don't understand how things like these passed testing.

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Old 07-20-2009, 06:31 AM   #32
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Here's another error from Part II:



By the way, I can't believe there's black boarders in 1080p??
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Old 07-20-2009, 07:27 AM   #33
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Here's another error from Part II
Thank goodness, I thought that was just me. The same thing happens when you pick up stuff at Herman's fort.

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Old 07-20-2009, 09:33 AM   #34
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Here's another error from Part II:



By the way, I can't believe there's black boarders in 1080p??
What am I supposed to see here?

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Old 07-20-2009, 09:37 AM   #35
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What am I supposed to see here?
The doors of the cupboard appear shut even when you open them, and anything else you pick up does not disappear in the scene.

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Old 07-20-2009, 09:39 AM   #36
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Ah, I didn't have that bug, for me they cupboard opened normaly.

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Old 07-20-2009, 09:44 AM   #37
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What am I supposed to see here?
The "PTA Minutes" and "Map to Monkey Island" icons are reversed.
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Old 07-20-2009, 09:48 AM   #38
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The "PTA Minutes" and "Map to Monkey Island" icons are reversed.
Ah... then the cupboard bug was just me...

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Old 07-20-2009, 10:02 AM   #39
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I've seen so many bugs in the game I don't believe any are "user specific".
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Old 07-20-2009, 12:40 PM   #40
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Bugs I've seen, apart from the usual clipping problems because of the new layouts.

- Music not stopping when switching from classic to SE
- No response when clicking too fast on an item (most common bug in the whole game, also most annoying)

Can't think of any other bugs really.

Also, a lot of the pictures for the items suck, most are just blurred versions of the originals.

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