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Old 09-08-2009, 10:07 AM   #1
kipperthefrog
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PVP

Will there be games like Capture the flag and Concoring territiory games like in warcraft?


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Old 09-08-2009, 10:43 AM   #2
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Don't know about stuff like battlegrounds, but it's confirmed that there will be PvP.


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Old 09-08-2009, 01:44 PM   #3
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Why is it that the first thing everyone cares about when a new MMO is released isn't the story, it's not the graphics, it's not good gameplay, or a generally well-designed game, it's PVP.

Seriously, there are already a million games that you can PVP in. Don't expect other games to have WoW-style PvP content just because you won't play WoW.


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Old 09-08-2009, 02:18 PM   #4
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Not much has been said about PvP, except that it will be present in-game. Now, there has been speculation as to whether or not PvP will be instanced, open, or a mixture of both. What is most critical to me is not if mini-games are available in PvP, but if it is open or instanced.

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Old 09-08-2009, 05:13 PM   #5
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Why is it that the first thing everyone cares about when a new MMO is released isn't the story, it's not the graphics, it's not good gameplay, or a generally well-designed game, it's PVP.

Seriously, there are already a million games that you can PVP in. Don't expect other games to have WoW-style PvP content just because you won't play WoW.

Well with it being Star WARS, I would expect a lot of PvP action. I am all for TOR's story, but pvp is good fun on the side. They don't necessarily have to have battlegrounds, just enable a way to fight other players in groups. Having opt-in flagging of yourself as PvP-enabled for your faction would be good(like SWG). You can be a Republic or Sith on Leave all the time, or you can be Overt and take on challengers as you see them, defending the good Republic(or Sith Empire)'s name.

I played WoW, but that doesn't mean I'd play WoW every time I wanna PvP. WoW's PvP settings get boring. A new game with its own PvP leaves open completely new classes and abilities and attacks and settings for fighting. There's nothing wrong with wanting some variety in PvP.


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Old 09-09-2009, 08:53 AM   #6
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Dunno. Don't care as much about PvP after WoW. It got boring like Rogue said. I had more fun with Instances and random quests.

But I did enjoy PvP in SWG. My guild would walk overt as Rebels into the Tyrena cantina and set up shop. Didn't take long to find one overt Imp...and he'd call his buddies after dieing...and then the whole town would be nothing but fire fights. It was awesome. Hadn't had that kind of experience in WoW, so here's hoping it makes a comeback in SW:TOR. Might be my own fault I hadn't had that experience in WoW, but I've never been really into the Horde/Alliance fight too much.


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Old 09-10-2009, 02:39 AM   #7
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Honestly, as long as I have the option to turn PvP on or off, I don't care one way or the other. Much as I don't like PvP, I don't care if others do, just so long as I don't have to deal with gankers or people who can't understand when a person doesn't want to fight.


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Old 09-10-2009, 03:05 AM   #8
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I think a lot of the PVP curiosity comes from people thinking of it as their end game. For some the whole point of leveling is to get max level and go straight to PVP. I enjoy PVP, but I'd rather do PWP(Co-Op and grouping). They haven't mentioned what kind of PVP is going to be available. So I understand why people want to know more about it. So while I'm not that interested in PVP, I still want to know about it.

Of course I would rather know what they have for crafting.


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Old 09-10-2009, 03:11 AM   #9
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Like I mentioned before, why would you want to not PvP in a setting like Star WARS? Imagine how boring the movies would be if Luke and Han and Anakin and Obi-Wan ran past Imperials and CIS without ever fighting, because they don't like fighting. It'd be very boring.

Conflict is central to the setting, there's fierce animosity between the factions, where they have reason to have been fighting for 300 years. But you just want to play nice and act like you're not at war? Come on, PvP really isn't that bad.


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Old 09-10-2009, 03:18 AM   #10
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Like I mentioned before, why would you want to not PvP in a setting like Star WARS? Imagine how boring the movies would be if Luke and Han and Anakin and Obi-Wan ran past Imperials and CIS without ever fighting, because they don't like fighting. It'd be very boring.

Conflict is central to the setting, there's fierce animosity between the factions, where they have reason to have been fighting for 300 years. But you just want to play nice and act like you're not at war? Come on, PvP really isn't that bad.
For the most part the heroes were doing the equivalent of PVE. Wiping out waves of baddies with the occasional boss NPC. What were the names of the Stormtroopers Luke killed? PVE. Just because someone doesn't want to fight other players, doesn't mean they hate fighting. They may just prefer to work with friends than fight enemies.

And I hope that means that when they release the space portion you will want to take part in that because it is STAR Wars after all.

And to be frank, PVP tends to be the source of all the nerfs. It tends to be the leading cause of complaints. "This class is overpowered." "My class is too weak I can't compete in PVP" then comes several Balance passes that make everyone unhappy. Then the PVPers want better gear than the PVEers get. They want better rewards for doing gameplay that THEY CHOOSE to take part in. Then there becomes the FOTM. Changing classes, to the one that just happens to be the "best" this month. Then there are the PVP cheaters that use hacks to win at PVP(those tend to be the ones to drive me away from PVP more than anything).


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Last edited by Tommycat; 09-10-2009 at 04:19 AM. Reason: Thought of something else...
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Old 09-10-2009, 07:50 AM   #11
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For the most part the heroes were doing the equivalent of PVE. Wiping out waves of baddies with the occasional boss NPC. What were the names of the Stormtroopers Luke killed? PVE. Just because someone doesn't want to fight other players, doesn't mean they hate fighting. They may just prefer to work with friends than fight enemies.

Okay, let's say all the nameless or background mooks are PvE. That still leaves every major duel in the movies as PvP. Imagine if in TPM when Maul had showed up in the Theed Hanger, Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan had said "We don't PvP, screw this, we're leaving". Ditto for Obi-Wan/Jango(SW2), Anakin+Obi-Wan/Dooku(SW2), Anakin/Dooku(SW3), Obi-Wan/Grevious(SW3), Anakin-Vader/Obi-Wan(SW3), Obi-Wan/Vader(SW4), Luke/Vader(SW5), then Luke/Vader+Emperor(SW6). All of them ended abruptly as "I don't wanna PvP, it's not my bag". You'd be hating it.

What is really that bad about PvP? You want them to make them PvP is Consensual only, but you'll never even PvP despite a consensual system. Fighting other players isn't so horrible. If the classes and abilities and gear/weapons are balanced, you'd have a fair shot at successfully taking down another player.

If you'd really "just prefer to work with friends than fight enemies", maybe we can hope that TOR will have some non-combat classes like Entertainer where you can socialize with friends in a cantina all day as part of your class' role rather than having to actually fight enemies. It worked out quite well in SWG. Also a crafting class, just to cover all bases.


Sorry for sounding so harsh, it just seems unfair to not give some aspect of TOR a chance just because.......well you haven't directly said your problem with PvP(aside from butthole gankers, but buttholes are everywhere, not just PvP). But you should at least try it a few times after launch, or maybe wait for more information on the PvP system. No sense not enjoying the game fully.

*edit*

Quote:
And I hope that means that when they release the space portion you will want to take part in that because it is STAR Wars after all.
I will, I've been hoping TOR's space combat isn't half-assed like KotOR's was. I loved SWG's space combat, including the PvP. So yes, I will want to play it, with it being STAR Wars. Nice try.


Quote:
And to be frank, PVP tends to be the source of all the nerfs. It tends to be the leading cause of complaints. "This class is overpowered." "My class is too weak I can't compete in PVP" then comes several Balance passes that make everyone unhappy. Then the PVPers want better gear than the PVEers get. They want better rewards for doing gameplay that THEY CHOOSE to take part in.
People will complain about anything. Nerfs and buffs go both ways. PvP can get nerfs due to cries of imbalance in PvE too, same as the vice-versa. PvP is hardly the only one at fault here(more the whiney players in general at fault). Both PvP and PvE should give rewards to those who like to play them, it'd be stupid not to. PvEers also want better rewards for doing gameplay that THEY CHOOSE to take part in. Instead of gimping either group, just make the gear rewards for both equal.

Quote:
Then there becomes the FOTM. Changing classes, to the one that just happens to be the "best" this month.
FotM specs are hardly unique to PvP either. Many MMOs with customizable classes will have FotM builds for PvE too, with that hot new talent that lets you take less damage against the latest hard boss. If you can find a way to fix this in PvE, I'm sure there will be the solution for fixing it in PvP too.

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Then there are the PVP cheaters that use hacks to win at PVP(those tend to be the ones to drive me away from PVP more than anything).
Hackers? Those are everywhere, usually not in PvP, not in MMOs. In my 2 1/2 years of WoW, every hacker I saw was a PvE bot that was teleporting around to gather resources without getting aggro from monsters(or actually having to ride/run to the next resource node). Hackers are more common in PvE now than PvP, farming in-game currency to sell to RTM sites for real money. The fault there is with the bots/hackers, not any particular aspect of the game.


Again, I apologize for the harsh, vaguely trollish tone. I am usually quite reasonable. I just don't see the fun in willfully denying yourself any part of such a highly anticipated and possibly fun game.


"Sir,we are beginning our search for these rumored 'underwater villages'.They will not stay hidden for long". -Battle Droid Commander OOM-9!

Last edited by RogueJedi86; 09-10-2009 at 08:03 AM. Reason: Took too long to write post, you added more to yours, also had to add more. :)
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Old 09-10-2009, 09:33 AM   #12
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Okay, let's say all the nameless or background mooks are PvE. That still leaves every major duel in the movies as PvP. Imagine if in TPM when Maul had showed up in the Theed Hanger, Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan had said "We don't PvP, screw this, we're leaving". Ditto for Obi-Wan/Jango(SW2), Anakin+Obi-Wan/Dooku(SW2), Anakin/Dooku(SW3), Obi-Wan/Grevious(SW3), Anakin-Vader/Obi-Wan(SW3), Obi-Wan/Vader(SW4), Luke/Vader(SW5), then Luke/Vader+Emperor(SW6). All of them ended abruptly as "I don't wanna PvP, it's not my bag". You'd be hating it.
BOSS NPC's. Now, the Arena on Geonosis could be considered PVP.

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What is really that bad about PvP? You want them to make them PvP is Consensual only, but you'll never even PvP despite a consensual system. Fighting other players isn't so horrible. If the classes and abilities and gear/weapons are balanced, you'd have a fair shot at successfully taking down another player.
First off, Just because PVP is not my main focus does not mean that I'll never take part in it. Some days I just want to run in fight a little bit and get out. Instances are notoriously long. PVP can be as quick as you want it to be. Or as drawn out and huge as you can get it. I enjoy it, however I also like to have my days where I'm not being load ganked. Some of the best fun I had was when the guild I was in had a guild war with another guild. In SWG, I took part in REAL base busts. Where Imperials would come out and try to stop us from busting the base. I took part in most aspects of PVP that SWG had. Including going from starport to starport looking for Imperials Chasing them down. Being hunted by bounty hunters because somehow I ended up with a 23 million credit bounty on my head... Taking PVP smuggling missions and giving a bounty hunter Vadarios's tour of Dathomir(while telling him jokes the entire time). But notice how even in your little rant, you mention balance. Perfect balance in an MMO is impossible. Unless there is just one class and one set of abilities, balance is a never ending struggle. Try reading Eldergame.com sometime.

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If you'd really "just prefer to work with friends than fight enemies", maybe we can hope that TOR will have some non-combat classes like Entertainer where you can socialize with friends in a cantina all day as part of your class' role rather than having to actually fight enemies. It worked out quite well in SWG. Also a crafting class, just to cover all bases.
Actually I like there being stuff to do other than combat 24/7. And working with friends meaning doing instance runs and the like. PVP is not the only fighting in the game. Just because YOU prefer fighting other players, does not invalidate other people's play style. And you know that the crafting business in SWG is truly PVP. Just not the same PVP you like to think of. It's business PVP.


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Sorry for sounding so harsh, it just seems unfair to not give some aspect of TOR a chance just because.......well you haven't directly said your problem with PvP(aside from butthole gankers, but buttholes are everywhere, not just PvP). But you should at least try it a few times after launch, or maybe wait for more information on the PvP system. No sense not enjoying the game fully.
Nice try, but I actually WILL be taking part in PVP. Just because it isn't my PREFERRED playstyle does not mean I will not take part. You seem to be making the mistake of thinking that anyone who doesn't prefer PVP is just some whiney carebear that will only do stuff that doesn't involve PVP. I DO have more problems with the animosity PVP brings, not just between factions, but also the different classes.

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I will, I've been hoping TOR's space combat isn't half-assed like KotOR's was. I loved SWG's space combat, including the PvP. So yes, I will want to play it, with it being STAR Wars. Nice try.
Great, That's the PVP I enjoy the most. I prefer space to ground. It's why I don't like PVP the way most MMO's put it in.


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People will complain about anything. Nerfs and buffs go both ways. PvP can get nerfs due to cries of imbalance in PvE too, same as the vice-versa. PvP is hardly the only one at fault here(more the whiney players in general at fault). Both PvP and PvE should give rewards to those who like to play them, it'd be stupid not to. PvEers also want better rewards for doing gameplay that THEY CHOOSE to take part in. Instead of gimping either group, just make the gear rewards for both equal.
PVP pits class versus class. That's how the balance wars end up getting started. Then balance tends to overshadow everything else. Compare the dev time spent on balance for PVP and balance for PVE, and you will see which is the biggest cause of nerfs. As for rewards. There should be a way for PVPers and PVEers to get the same rewards. One may get it through killing X different players, and the other should be able to get the same as a random drop from a boss npc.


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FotM specs are hardly unique to PvP either. Many MMOs with customizable classes will have FotM builds for PvE too, with that hot new talent that lets you take less damage against the latest hard boss. If you can find a way to fix this in PvE, I'm sure there will be the solution for fixing it in PvP too.
Usually brought about as a balance pass for PVP.

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Hackers? Those are everywhere, usually not in PvP, not in MMOs. In my 2 1/2 years of WoW, every hacker I saw was a PvE bot that was teleporting around to gather resources without getting aggro from monsters(or actually having to ride/run to the next resource node). Hackers are more common in PvE now than PvP, farming in-game currency to sell to RTM sites for real money. The fault there is with the bots/hackers, not any particular aspect of the game.
When they run the lag hack to turn a normal PVP match into a slideshow, Yeah I'm callin those guys hackers.


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Again, I apologize for the harsh, vaguely trollish tone. I am usually quite reasonable. I just don't see the fun in willfully denying yourself any part of such a highly anticipated and possibly fun game.
I'M NOT THE ONE SAYING THERE SHOULD BE NO PVP! Consentual yes. But then having forced PVP is like cutting off PVE for other people. Not to mention that some countries have rules about forced PVP in games. And you know what. even if someone chooses not to have PVP as part of their game SO WHAT! Not everyone likes to PVP. Would you be happy if the game did not offer PVP? Probably not. Would they be happy if the whole game was PVP? Probably not. I LIKE the opt in system. Heck I even like fully PVP servers. But not the whole darn game. That would cut off those that don't like PVP.


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Old 09-10-2009, 07:39 PM   #13
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I'm not a pure PvP player, I don't even PvP the majority of the time. I do play it some, but not a lot. I just want the option so I can do it when I feel like it. Everyone should do it a little.

Where did you see speed hackers in pvp? Which game? I sure never saw it in WoW, only in WoW's PvE, in areas filled with resources to gather to sell for gold.

To be fair on many of my points on not pvping, I think I meant them at Web Rider. I'm just burned out on that huge post I made that seems way too belligerent in hindsight.


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Old 09-10-2009, 11:14 PM   #14
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Then I don't see the problem. So long as it is consensual PVP all is good.

Seen several different hackers. The 100k hit. The lag hack. The invulnerability hack. I've seen them in most of the games I PVP in. I can't speak to WoW as I can't stand that game.

As to your points... Whether to Web Rider or not, My points still stand. Just because someone doesn't want to PVP that does not mean they should be forced into it. If someone chooses not to PVP that is their choice. For some the PVE game is enough for them. Fighting Boss NPC's is their big battle. They don't need to face off against a random player


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Old 09-11-2009, 12:58 AM   #15
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Which games? We ruled out WoW, but what could they be? It's not like I'll criticize you for playing certain games. Those sound like extreme hacks, never heard of them in non-shooters.

As for forcing PvP, they force the PvE game on people in most every MMO, why should the reverse be a problem? Maybe some MMORPG PvPers don't like being forced to kill mobs in PvE to level. That's definitely not me, but it never hurts to at least have the option, so long as it can't be easily exploited by 2 or 3 people killing each other non-stop to level. If someone chooses not to PvE, it should be their choice.


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Old 09-11-2009, 07:39 AM   #16
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Well SWG for one. On some days when there are 20+ for empire and republic, it's still running smooth. Then on the next day when one player(well group of 8) comes in and it becomes slide show, you know something is up. I have no proof that those players were using lag hacks. But considering that I was in a huge 30-40 player battle and the framerate was 25 then a 16 player battle has a framerate of 2.. something is up.

Cheaters are going to be in the game. With PVE they can be mostly ignored. PVP makes it blatantly disruptive.

Honestly I agree with you that there should be servers where there is no leveling and it's for pure PVP. But that game is rather simple to make. With no levels or story required. Also generally they make PVP missions provide greater rewards in either XP or cash. Honestly it would be pretty nice to have a max level character server where everyone is maxxed out so that they can try out different builds so that as they level another toon on another server they have an idea what skill set they want to use.


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Old 09-11-2009, 08:45 AM   #17
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If there's cheaters talk to GMs. They watch, they know the common hacks and they'll investigate your claim. If they're hacking, they'll get nailed. If not, don't worry about it.

The "HACKER!" accusation is getting really old. Where ever there is a multiplayer game there is someone shouting "TK421 is a hacker!!" Most of the time they arn't hackers, most of the time they're just good at what they do.


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Old 09-11-2009, 09:52 PM   #18
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Trust me I know that darn near 99% of all "hacker" claims are bogus. BUT in enough cases, you know they are cheating. When their one hit kills you and it doesn't even show up in the combat log. Yeah chances are they are cheating. Either through an exploit or a hack. When ONE person causes framerates to drop to 2FPS. Something is definitely up. It's that 1% of real cheaters that tend to ruin it for a lot of players. And that 99% of false reports that makes the GM's less apt to check on every claim of cheating.


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Old 09-11-2009, 09:55 PM   #19
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Old 09-11-2009, 10:06 PM   #20
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There's no way for someone to kill the FPS on your computer. Lagbombs by flooding the server with empty packets of info could make them seem to lag and be able to teleport around the maps, but they can't kill the FPS on your computer.

No attack should not show up in combat log, since all attacks have to go directly through the server before getting to another player in the form of an attack. I don't know what's going on with that.


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Old 10-03-2009, 03:37 PM   #21
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I don't care if there's PvP as long as it doesn't interfere with PvE play. I have no desire to see a level 20 guy running around killing people in the newbie zone screaming "PWNED!!!111!!1!1!!!eleventy-one!!11!!".

Since it appears that Bioware is working so hard on the story, I suspect PvE is going to supersede PvP, which I think may be why we haven't heard a lot about PvP. They may be trying to decide how to incorporate PvP into the game.


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Old 10-03-2009, 03:50 PM   #22
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But with that focus on story, Jae, they would also have to put in PvP to match the setting. With the galaxy at war, both sides are at war, fighting. But if instead in TOR, you seem Imperials and Republicans acting like best friends at the local cantina, that clashes horribly with the storyline's stated war between the Sith Empire and the Galactic Republic. So in that regard, I hope PvP is a big part of TOR.

I recall an interview several months back stating that there's a nice looking Smuggler PvP set, so we can definitely expect PvP to be in the game with a robust enough system to allow PvP gear.


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Old 08-10-2010, 07:24 PM   #23
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i think the pvp is going to be very similar to warcrafts.

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Old 08-26-2010, 06:58 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi View Post
I don't care if there's PvP as long as it doesn't interfere with PvE play. I have no desire to see a level 20 guy running around killing people in the newbie zone screaming "PWNED!!!111!!1!1!!!eleventy-one!!11!!".

Since it appears that Bioware is working so hard on the story, I suspect PvE is going to supersede PvP, which I think may be why we haven't heard a lot about PvP. They may be trying to decide how to incorporate PvP into the game.
I'm with you on this one Jae. I've never been much on PvP and personally I don't care what they do with it.


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Old 08-26-2010, 11:51 AM   #25
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I'm with you on this one Jae. I've never been much on PvP and personally I don't care what they do with it.
+1, pvp is my last port of call in any game


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Old 08-26-2010, 02:12 PM   #26
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I love PvP, it helps the setting. You don't quite getting the feeling of frantic all-out war when you're lazily doing quests or dungeons. PvP is fast-paced so it helps the feeling of being in a warzone(hence that being the name of the pvp battlegrounds I guess). I may not PvP all the time, or even most of the time, but I played on a PvP server on WoW(not by choice, friends were there when I got WoW, I embraced the server type), so I at least try to PvP some. Playing a PvP server increases your reflexes, making you more aware of your surrounding in case a player sneaks up on you in the middle of a kill, which in turns helps you be more aware of mobs around you too.

Anyways, I like PvP, even if I don't always participate in it.


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Old 10-11-2010, 12:50 PM   #27
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PvP is very complicated to implement correctly, and given the level of experience that Bioware has (zero?), I'd think that they should focus their effort on polishing their "four pillars" (story, exploration, combat, stats) to perfection.

Personally, I played WoW purely for PvP (since its story/world is elementary). PvE combat in WoW was also too pathetically easy. However, I'm playing SWToR purely for the story and exploration (like KotOR), and I'll get my fill of challenging gameplay from plenty of other sources (Guild Wars 2!!!!, League of Legends, Starcraft 2, Team Fortress 2, etc.). So if there's no PvP in SWToR, I wouldn't ever care since i'll be too busy making alts to experience all the storylines.

In terms of complaints of PvP affecting PvE balance however, I've always find that funny. It's reasonably difficult to balance PvP due to unpredictable combat situations and imbalance might mean that one class may always lose. But, in PvE, there is no such problem. Each encounter is fully scripted and raid groups will still beat content just fine. However it's the overly, pathetically simple and easy combat that cause each class to effectively boil down into just a single number on the dps meter. A dps/utility class that is balanced in a true class design sense (less damage because he has utility) will not be able to compete with a pure dps class if the utility powers are rendered worthless by the design of the encounter. PvE encounters just need to be designed in a way that each class get to shine uniquely and not support only pure-tank, pure-dps, or pure-heal roles when the classes are not designed that way.


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Old 10-11-2010, 05:30 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by SSH83 View Post
PvP is very complicated to implement correctly, and given the level of experience that Bioware has (zero?), I'd think that they should focus their effort on polishing their "four pillars" (story, exploration, combat, stats) to perfection.

Personally, I played WoW purely for PvP (since its story/world is elementary). PvE combat in WoW was also too pathetically easy. However, I'm playing SWToR purely for the story and exploration (like KotOR), and I'll get my fill of challenging gameplay from plenty of other sources (Guild Wars 2!!!!, League of Legends, Starcraft 2, Team Fortress 2, etc.). So if there's no PvP in SWToR, I wouldn't ever care since i'll be too busy making alts to experience all the storylines.

In terms of complaints of PvP affecting PvE balance however, I've always find that funny. It's reasonably difficult to balance PvP due to unpredictable combat situations and imbalance might mean that one class may always lose. But, in PvE, there is no such problem. Each encounter is fully scripted and raid groups will still beat content just fine. However it's the overly, pathetically simple and easy combat that cause each class to effectively boil down into just a single number on the dps meter. A dps/utility class that is balanced in a true class design sense (less damage because he has utility) will not be able to compete with a pure dps class if the utility powers are rendered worthless by the design of the encounter. PvE encounters just need to be designed in a way that each class get to shine uniquely and not support only pure-tank, pure-dps, or pure-heal roles when the classes are not designed that way.
On that subject, all WoW's talent trees will be changed to have far more 'utility' skills in them.
It was one of my complaints too about WoW. There was actually an add-on for the game that scanned other people's gear. If it wasn't good enough, you couldn't come. But in order to be good enough, you need to come on those raids. It's quite a catch 22.
In terms of gameplay, it meant the die-hard no-lifers and casual players were separated even more, with no regard to skill whatsoever.

I've been playing Guild Wars since it launched. It has an unique, yet extremely flawed skills system that is challenging at first but soon turns into something similar as WoW, with 'best' skillsets that 'everyone should have.'

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