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Old 11-02-2009, 11:59 PM   #1
Jae Onasi
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Charles Krauthammer's Essay: Decline is a Choice

I really like Charles Krauthammer. He's conservative, just so you know where he's at on the political spectrum. He's brilliant, has an amazing wealth of knowledge about history and politics, and is well-spoken. He's not afraid to call it like he sees it if he thinks politicians and especially conservatives are screwing up, and watching him on Fox news is always a treat. If you want an understanding of American politics, especially the conservative side, read his columns or watch him on Fox. His predictions/insights are usually on target. He'll explain how he got to the that point, and then he'll explain if he thinks that is a good or bad thing.

Anyway, he recently wrote an article called "Decline is a Choice". It is not light reading, and if you'd like to discuss it, please read the article in its entirety. You'll miss a lot of important points if you tune out after the first few paragraphs. You'll also miss a tremendous amount of subtlety in his use of language if you skim through it.

So, is America in decline? Is "New Liberalism" the cause? What implications will this have for the rest of the world? If the US relinquishes its role as superpower, and we trust the rest of the world to meet us in good faith as fellow world citizens, is that a reasonable thought, or is it naive? Can we trust other countries to put forth the same good faith effort that liberals in the US are hoping for? There is so much more Krauthammer touches on in this essay, so feel free to discuss whatever jumps out at you as particularly important, unusual, thought-provoking, or even something that makes you angry.


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Old 11-03-2009, 12:22 AM   #2
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With a name like Krauthammer I have to wonder if he bashes Germans a lot.



Just saying.


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Old 11-03-2009, 01:02 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by Jae Onasi View Post
He's not afraid to call it like he sees it if he thinks politicians and especially republicans are screwing up, and watching him on Fox news is always a treat. If you want an understanding of American politics, especially the conservative side, read his columns or watch him on Fox. His predictions/insights are usually on target. He'll explain how he got to the that point, and then he'll explain if he thinks that is a good or bad thing.
I, too, enjoy hearing Krauthammer's points of views on many different issues. He is a conservative genius as far as pundits are concerned. I did make on slight change to your original post. He doesn't think that conservatives are screwing up, he thinks it's republicans that are screwing up - the republicans whom are currently in Congress. Not all republicans are conservatives and not all conservative identify as republican. Ideologically, conservatives and republicans are often in agreement on many things but not everything.
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Old 11-03-2009, 06:40 AM   #4
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He's definitely not prone to complete ignorance, and actually fills his words with logic and reason, but that is where his differences from his peers ends. I don't know about you, but he came off as quite imperialistic when speaking about the post-WW2 world and it's repercussions concerning America's "rise to superpowerdom". He also still seems to think that Russia is a legitimate threat, placing the nation at the same level as N. Korea and Iran. Additionally, I find his dread of lessened military spending and increased education funds to be laughable and ultimately despicable.

So, yes, he's not quite different from his respective colleagues at all; he just has some sense of reason in his words.
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Old 11-03-2009, 07:54 AM   #5
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He also still seems to think that Russia is a legitimate threat
Russia is still a threat - to Europe. You aren't sitting on their doorstep, so maybe you don't get to see the extent of their gangsterish foreign policy. Google 'Georgian invasion', then Google 'Gazprom'.



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Old 11-03-2009, 09:03 AM   #6
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Russia is still a threat - to Europe. You aren't sitting on their doorstep, so maybe you don't get to see the extent of their gangsterish foreign policy. Google 'Georgian invasion', then Google 'Gazprom'.
I'm well aware of their actions, past and present, and I still contend that they are no more aggressive than the U.S. is to Iraq, and Israel is to Palestine; they maybe overprotective and prone to military quagmires, but that doesn't make it a despot-run totalitarian nation a la N. Korea or Iran. Corrupted, yes, but not inherently evil per se.
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Old 11-03-2009, 10:31 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by PastramiX View Post
He's definitely not prone to complete ignorance, and actually fills his words with logic and reason, but that is where his differences from his peers ends. I don't know about you, but he came off as quite imperialistic when speaking about the post-WW2 world and it's repercussions concerning America's "rise to superpowerdom". He also still seems to think that Russia is a legitimate threat, placing the nation at the same level as N. Korea and Iran.
I grew up during the Cold War, and I still think Russia is a threat. In fact, I consider them far more of a potential threat than NK or Iran. They have massive resources in materiel (they sit on more oil than the Middle East, for instance) and people than NK and Iran put together, and they have a ton of nukes and the ability to wipe out the entire world if they so desire. If a dictator takes over in that country, which is not impossible, we'll see another version of the USSR. Their corruption problem is huge, and the fledgling democracy hasn't been in power long enough for people to have gotten used to freedom. I believe this state could revert to a de facto dictatorship at any time given certain conditions, and then it would become a huge threat to us, given their past history of dealings with us. Krauthammer's and DI's concerns are not misplaced.

America, like it or not, is a superpower. Who gets called in major disasters after hurricanes or tsunamis or famine in third world countries? The US. Who does NATO depend on heavily to protect its interests? The US. Russia and China, and the combined EU, are not too far behind, but the US is still the 'go-to guy' for many things. The question is if we want to abdicate that position, or hold that position responsibly.

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Additionally, I find his dread of lessened military spending and increased education funds to be laughable and ultimately despicable.
I didn't read it that way at all. He was pointing out that funding to education was increased 100% while defense spending was frozen. I believe he was arguing not that education should be sacrificed, but that if you're going to increase education, especially that much, shouldn't defense also get an increase? He pointed out this spending discrepancy was proof of Obama's view of the US military and the change in foreign policy. I don't believe it wasn't meant to be Krauthammer's personal views on education.


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Old 11-03-2009, 12:40 PM   #8
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I didn't read it that way at all. He was pointing out that funding to education was increased 100% while defense spending was frozen. I believe he was arguing not that education should be sacrificed, but that if you're going to increase education, especially that much, shouldn't defense also get an increase? He pointed out this spending discrepancy was proof of Obama's view of the US military and the change in foreign policy. I don't believe it wasn't meant to be Krauthammer's personal views on education.
No, because that's downright silly. The US education budget, Local, State, and Federal has been cut down to unbelievably useless levels over the past 50 years. Conversely, the US military budget has grown like a weed with an IV drip of liquid gold. We spend nearly 50% of our budget on defense-related expenses, while our education budget runs somewhere in the range of 4-7%(depending on which numbers you look at). While it's true that jets are more expensive than books, I would stand to argue that books are more important than jets.

The US military could do just as well with a lot less, and they will do just fine with their current budget. All else fails, we'll build two less battleships this year.


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Old 11-03-2009, 02:19 PM   #9
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Bleh, exam time kills off kavars time, so I'll respond to the CHarles article later.

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In fact, I consider them far more of a potential threat than NK or Iran. They have massive resources in materiel (they sit on more oil than the Middle East, for instance) and people than NK and Iran put together
They also have an economy as good as a USSR car (not to mention a demographic crisis), and a military that will have a hard time attacking even Sweden, look to the Georgian war (or Chechenya) and you'll see just how efficent the Russian army is.

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If a dictator takes over in that country, which is not impossible, we'll see another version of the USSR.
If? While Medvedjev/Putin would almost certainly win a fair election, until that happens, I have no problem saying Russia is a dictatorship. I wouldn't worry about a new USSR though, Russia simply can't aford it.

I'm not arguing Russia can't, or won't, hurt the US (or its allies), however, expect the pain to be of the non-military kind.

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Old 11-03-2009, 04:26 PM   #10
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I grew up during the Cold War, and I still think Russia is a threat.
Emphasis mine; not to so sound condescending, but almost everyone that has been raised in Cold War-era America has been religiously raised to believe that the Soviet Union was a bastion of pure evil, whilst the US was the utmost personification of all-things-good. This isn't a behavioral analysis, nor is it criticizing one's own opinion, it is simply stating the fact that the depiction of the USSR by American media & government was outright propaganda, and in that environment, anyone could believe anything, even it meant eschewing the truth.
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In fact, I consider them far more of a potential threat than NK or Iran. They have massive resources in materiel (they sit on more oil than the Middle East, for instance) and people than NK and Iran put together, and they have a ton of nukes and the ability to wipe out the entire world if they so desire.
Russia may have all of assets for a nuclear holocaust, but they simply lack the framework or the gall to do such a thing. On the other hand, the US has had the possession of a nuclear arsenal on constant standby for the past several decades; I'd be much more worrisome of the consequences of my own country MAD'ing the world than a crippled former archenemy doing the like.
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If a dictator takes over in that country, which is not impossible, we'll see another version of the USSR. Their corruption problem is huge, and the fledgling democracy hasn't been in power long enough for people to have gotten used to freedom.
It's definitely a possibility, and is certainly one to be wary about. This, however, hasn't happened yet, and to discount Russia as totalitarian as N. Korea or Iran is foolhardy, especially when the US has the diplomacy to curtail such a thing.
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I didn't read it that way at all. He was pointing out that funding to education was increased 100% while defense spending was frozen. I believe he was arguing not that education should be sacrificed, but that if you're going to increase education, especially that much, shouldn't defense also get an increase?
Taking into account what WR said prior to this, I will also add that I feel that a generation of forsaken and ignorant children is a greater threat to national security than Russia mustering the power to perform a laissez-faire nuclear deployment.
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Old 11-03-2009, 08:20 PM   #11
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Russia IS still a threat, I spend much of my free time studying it. But Russia is not the same kind of threat that say, N Korea is. Russia will not be some rogue nation that will do stupid things in order to get fame and attention. Russia is not seeking concessions and foreign aid while they secretly amass nuclear weapons. N Korea is the same kind of threat as the local gang, they'll make a lot of noise, tag a lot of walls, and now and then, make life suck for a few people. Russia is(not to make an ironic comparason), a lot more like organized crime, they know the power they hold, they know where their influence is, and they know what they can get away with.

Nobody is going to go over to Russia and say: "If you don't keep in line, we'll go to war with you!" Because Russia, even though it's not as powerful as it was while it was the Soviet Union, is still one of the most powerful players in the Europe-Asia sphere. Few countries have the same ability to project power, both economic and military, in the same way they do, save maybe China and India. Which puts them in a small circle of players who should NEVER be treated lightly.

Additionally, Russia is NOT our friend. They may be our ally, but being our ally and being our buddy are two totally different political positions. Russia's state-controlled media is mandated to paint the US as an enemy, and many people still regard it as such. Many people, both citizens and politicians, hold a high level of regard for the Soviet Union and the power that it gave to their country. Putin and Medvedev have pushed through many changes that have pushed Russia closer to the way it was before the fall of the USSR. They are not people that by any measure could be thought of as having dreams of a truly democratic state.

In any case, while Iran and N Korea may present a more immediate, military threat, Russia poses a more long-term, political, economic-rival threat potential. Much in the same manner that China does, though Russia, unlike China, doesn't own our soul. Russia should not be discounted as "not a threat" simply because they are not saber-rattling and threatening to nuke us if we don't give them their cookie.


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Old 11-03-2009, 11:01 PM   #12
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To agree with a point made already, I present a quote that pretty much sums things up for me:

"'Evil men have no songs.' How is it that the Russians have songs?" - Friedrich Nietzsche.

I think that MAD pretty much makes the decision of using a nuke to not be an option in war anymore. Firing a nuke at anyone would be a hollow victory. Because you'd most likely be dead a few minutes after pressing the button that fired the nuke.

Considering this, I think that we shouldn't worry about any nukes, but rather the other parts of the militaries of different 'threatening' countries - naval, air, ground, and all the weapons that aren't nukes.

And as for the talk about 'new' liberalism... I think that it's a good thing. I would rather extend a two hands of friendly peace, understanding, and embracing diversity, letting my guard down to show good faith, than a shaky hand of compromised peace with the other hand holding a gun behind my back.

I would be willing to bet that the majority of earth's human population, regardless of nationality, would very much so prefer to do whatever necessary to avoid fighting on a nuclear level.


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Old 11-04-2009, 11:41 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hallucination View Post
With a name like Krauthammer I have to wonder if he bashes Germans a lot.
Just saying.
Or maybe he's just a German hammer. Just saying....

Re: article, Krauthammer makes a slew of good points. The reason the Europeans and Japanese were able to focus more on domestic issues (economy, national health, etc..) was b/c they didn't have to allot as much of their resources to their own defenses, thanks to America.

As far as the military goes, it could do with a lot less IF it were used for a lot less. We spend tons of money per student on education and consistently place much lower than other countries for elementary and high school. BO will no doubt go the route that Clinton did re the service. Cut them to pay for his promised cornucopia of "social goodies". As to the miltary's share of the budget, 25-33%. Bulk of budget goes to SS/MC and interest payments on debt.

What's maddening though, is how many lemmings in this country walk down the garden path on "global warming"/eco issues that prevent us from making good on our own energy independence and paying down our debt (Unless you happen to think hyperinflation is a good way to pay down the face value of that debt) on account of dodgy "science".

@Arc--It's naive to blindly trust others in the hope they will do you no harm. Better to approach warily and build trust than just to give it to anyone who comes your way. BO is gonna learn that the hard way. Trust but verify.

Also, Russia is a threat. There are many ways to create mischief beyond a full frontal assault. Via resources w/EU, diplomatic stumbling block (Iran), making nice w/America's enemies and supplying them weapons (didn't just stop w/'end of Cold War). I'd even agree that it is a defacto dictatorship w/Putin pulling Medvedev's strings.


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Old 11-04-2009, 01:43 PM   #14
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@Arc--It's naive to blindly trust others in the hope they will do you no harm. Better to approach warily and build trust than just to give it to anyone who comes your way. BO is gonna learn that the hard way. Trust but verify.
Yes, however I still think that diplomacy would work far better if the guns were put away.


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Old 11-04-2009, 03:12 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcesious
"'Evil men have no songs.
Right. I'd love to see the proof on that.
I can't believe Nietzshce believed this and actually made commentary on it.


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Old 11-04-2009, 05:07 PM   #16
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Right. I'd love to see the proof on that.
I can't believe Nietzshce believed this and actually made commentary on it.
I think that the first part was metaphorical... The point that Nietzsche was trying to make is that the people of countries we consider enemies, and then derogate as being 'evil' are actually normal, people just like us.


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Old 11-04-2009, 11:23 PM   #17
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Well, in some cases he'd be right and not so much in others. Often those people may not be remotely alike except in terms of being human beings.


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

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Old 11-05-2009, 01:59 AM   #18
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Right. I'd love to see the proof on that.
I can't believe Nietzshce believed this and actually made commentary on it.
I believe there is a whole genre of music that negates that theory. Heavy Metal. Death metal to be precise.


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Old 11-06-2009, 07:25 PM   #19
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Krauthammer is right on the money. The liberal establishment in the US government is going down the avenue of dropping our position as the world's leading economic and military power in order to sit back home and pay everyone to be less productive while the world is less safe. I do not believe that is a good trade.

@WebRider--We spend much more per child on education now than we spent 50 years ago. Your premise is dead wrong.


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Old 11-06-2009, 08:53 PM   #20
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@WebRider--We spend much more per child on education now than we spent 50 years ago. Your premise is dead wrong.
We have more children now. We have more operating costs. Inflation. When my dad was a kid 50 years ago, it cost a nickel to buy a candy-bar. It costs me anywhere from 75c to a buck now. Welcome to the economic world of inflation.

Spending more money on things has ALWAYS been America's problem. No matter who's in charge, the answer is always to spend MORE money. The situation hasn't improved. Perhaps we should try a new strategy? Like, spending less money, and making things more efficient, paying the people closest to the students the most, instead of the people farthest from them. Like making the military smaller, lighter, and better, instead of just filling our numbers with under-trained grunts.

How about we stop covering every nation's ass and tell them to make their own army and protect their own country. America comes first. We fix America, then we can go out and fix the world. If we can't fix America, then there's nothing we can do to help the world.


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Old 11-06-2009, 11:46 PM   #21
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We have more children now. We have more operating costs. Inflation. When my dad was a kid 50 years ago, it cost a nickel to buy a candy-bar. It costs me anywhere from 75c to a buck now. Welcome to the economic world of inflation.

Spending more money on things has ALWAYS been America's problem. No matter who's in charge, the answer is always to spend MORE money. The situation hasn't improved. Perhaps we should try a new strategy? Like, spending less money, and making things more efficient, paying the people closest to the students the most, instead of the people farthest from them.
First, you say it's bad that we have cut spending on education. I point out we actually spend more per child now than in the past, and you say that is bad. Make up your mind.
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Like making the military smaller, lighter, and better, instead of just filling our numbers with under-trained grunts.
Unless you have first-hand knowledge of military training, please refrain from making ill-founded comments like this. The US military is the best-trained force in the world, bar none. I know because I am a soldier.

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How about we stop covering every nation's ass and tell them to make their own army and protect their own country. America comes first. We fix America, then we can go out and fix the world. If we can't fix America, then there's nothing we can do to help the world.
The only thing that needs fixed in America is for people to get of their couches and work for what they want, instead of relying on the government to provide it for them. While it would be nice to tell the world to take care of itself, it is hopelessly naive to believe they will stop those who wish to do us harm. We ignored the warning signs for eight years under a liberal president, and look what it got us: 3000 civilians killed.

Face it. There are evil people in the world who will not listen to reason. They will only be surrendered to or defeated. I prefer not to surrender.


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Old 11-07-2009, 12:20 PM   #22
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I have to agree with Point Man to a certain degree here. We do have a really good military, and I have to agree with what Atris says in TSL, "Some evils must be confronted, and isolation is no defense"

I suppose that idealy we'd use diplomacy and get this country out of the buisness of other countries until we're stable, but it probably isn't that simple.

But don't take this as a change to a cynical opinion, because I still think that 'the glass if half full'. I think that its important to, even in the midst of all these problems, stay optimistic.


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Old 11-07-2009, 12:40 PM   #23
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Nothing wrong with wanting to be optpmistic, so long as you are realistic as well. Diplomacy is toothless if not backed by both force and the will to use it (especially in the eyes of your opponents). Remember the maxim "$$ talks, BS walks".


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Old 11-07-2009, 02:02 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Point Man View Post
First, you say it's bad that we have cut spending on education. I point out we actually spend more per child now than in the past, and you say that is bad. Make up your mind.
I think that what WR was trying to say was that despite cost-of-living and inflation corrections, education is still ridiculously underfunded. If the federal budget doesn't convince you, then feel free to look at any state or local budget reports; you'll see that education funds are constantly being trimmed.
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Unless you have first-hand knowledge of military training, please refrain from making ill-founded comments like this. The US military is the best-trained force in the world, bar none. I know because I am a soldier.
Not to bring about offense, but you are subject to bias with that statement.
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The only thing that needs fixed in America is for people to get of their couches and work for what they want, instead of relying on the government to provide it for them.
Please don't bring up the "Poor=Lazy" social Darwinian argument; we both know that that's not representative of anything that the government can control.
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We ignored the warning signs for eight years under a liberal president, and look what it got us: 3000 civilians killed.
The "Blame it on liberal Clinton" tirade is quite droll, especially when one considers that the CIA alone was the agency that had the supreme authority on whether or not to recommend a preemptive assassination of bin-Laden to the president.
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Old 11-07-2009, 02:43 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PastramiX View Post
I think that what WR was trying to say was that despite cost-of-living and inflation corrections, education is still ridiculously underfunded. If the federal budget doesn't convince you, then feel free to look at any state or local budget reports; you'll see that education funds are constantly being trimmed.Not to bring about offense, but you are subject to bias with that statement.Please don't bring up the "Poor=Lazy" social Darwinian argument; we both know that that's not representative of anything that the government can control.The "Blame it on liberal Clinton" tirade is quite droll, especially when one considers that the CIA alone was the agency that had the supreme authority on whether or not to recommend a preemptive assassination of bin-Laden to the president.
Problem w/education spending is that we have little to show for what we do spend, and it's still more than most (if not all other) countries. Perhaps what's needed there is more accountability for the money that is doled out, just like what would be demanded of any govt agency (yes, including the Pentagon). Perhaps pull the govt out of education altogether. It does a pretty bad job there compared to private schools.

PM is right about people here in general. Besides, he didn't say poor=lazy, you made that jump for him. There are a lot of middle class people, even rich, that are pretty lazy. It's not a question of rich or poor. If people quit looking to the govt for handouts and excuses, they might make something of themselves, besides an albatros on everyone elses' necks. There may always be something of a need for an emergency safety net for some people, but there's no reason to build an entitlement class (for business or individual). Afterall, when you can no longer feed the thralls.....

You may feel that PM is inherently biased as he's a soldier, but what do you base your own questionable allegation on or is it just a form of rhetoric?


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

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Old 11-07-2009, 03:49 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Web Rider
instead of just filling our numbers with under-trained grunts.
That has to be one of the most ill-informed opinions I've seen, and very surprising for you. Do you know how much training each and every enlisted soldier and sailor goes through? We had enlisted personnel who are programming and working with computers, doing all sorts of tasks in hospitals and clinics (surgical tech, LPN, medical techs, dental hygienists, etc), working with advanced scientific equipment such as meteorological, radar, chemical, sonar, and other delicate instruments, and many, many more things than I can possibly list here. Most of these training courses lead to concurrent civilian associate college degrees or advanced technical certificates.

Every single soldier and sailor not only finishes basic training, but takes an extra 8 weeks to a year of training on top of that for their specialty. If you want to advance above E-4, you have to take additional courses.

You can call the military many things, but 'untrained grunts' is a completely inccorect characterization.


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Old 11-07-2009, 04:40 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Totenkopf View Post
Problem w/education spending is that we have little to show for what we do spend, and it's still more than most (if not all other) countries. Perhaps what's needed there is more accountability for the money that is doled out, just like what would be demanded of any govt agency (yes, including the Pentagon). Perhaps pull the govt out of education altogether. It does a pretty bad job there compared to private schools.
To be honest, most of my experience with incompetence in the public education system was at the local government level; they're the ones who make the real decisions concerning policy and standards. They may adhere to federal and state guidelines, but other than that, they're free to do what they want, regardless of constituent feedback. I'd say that any idea should be made welcome to reforming the education system, and along with a somewhat consistent funding scheme, real reform should start at the local level, even if that means gutting districts completely and allowing private corporations to administrate them in a way they see fit.
Quote:
PM is right about people here in general. Besides, he didn't say poor=lazy, you made that jump for him. There are a lot of middle class people, even rich, that are pretty lazy. It's not a question of rich or poor. If people quit looking to the govt for handouts and excuses, they might make something of themselves, besides an albatros on everyone elses' necks. There may always be something of a need for an emergency safety net for some people, but there's no reason to build an entitlement class (for business or individual).
I do agree that incentive is definitely imperative, even if that means curtailing some benefits and entitlements. However, welfare and unemployment benefits are there for reason, which is the main point that I was making.

Last edited by jrrtoken; 11-07-2009 at 06:16 PM.
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Old 11-07-2009, 05:01 PM   #28
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@Pastrami--my bad, the allegation was in reference to "under-trained grunts", which was WR's.


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

How would you like to own a little bit of my foot in your ass.---Red Foreman
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Old 11-07-2009, 08:07 PM   #29
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In my discussion of education funding, I was simply pointing out the fallacy that education budgets are smaller than 50 years ago. That is just not true.

My belief is that money is not the issue with educational decline. The problem is that everyone defines the issue incorrectly. Instead of asking how we should fix our schools, we need to ask how we can produce better-educated citizens. The most important thing we can do to insure this is for parents to take more responsibility in their children's education. When we rely on a government institution, or even a private school, to do the job, we should expect children not to learn much. I believe most of the blame for poorly-educated children belongs to the explosion of single-parent households in the past 50 years. Diminished parental involvement = diminished education.

I was not saying poor = lazy. I grew up poor, even though my father worked two, and sometimes three, jobs. He was not lazy in the least, but with a big family, we never had much money. My point is that Krauthammer was right in pointing out that if we allow laziness and entitlement to take precedence over world leadership, we will reap terrible consequences.

The basic point is this: nobody is entitled to an easy life. You have to work hard for what you get, and you have to defend it against those who would seek to take it or destroy it.


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Old 11-07-2009, 10:44 PM   #30
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<Snipped>

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Unless you have first-hand knowledge of military training, please refrain from making ill-founded comments like this. The US military is the best-trained force in the world, bar none. I know because I am a soldier.
Then maybe you can tell me why almost anyone with any other possible line of work DOESNT go into the army?

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The only thing that needs fixed in America is for people to get of their couches and work for what they want, instead of relying on the government to provide it for them. While it would be nice to tell the world to take care of itself, it is hopelessly naive to believe they will stop those who wish to do us harm. We ignored the warning signs for eight years under a liberal president, and look what it got us: 3000 civilians killed.
Oh great, the Clinton excuse. I'm sorry, I thought I was having a rational discussion. If you're gonna turn every argument around to "Darn them liberals!" Then I'll pass thank you.

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Face it. There are evil people in the world who will not listen to reason. They will only be surrendered to or defeated. I prefer not to surrender.
Good for them. Let someone else deal with them. It's time the world did exactly what you said, stood up, worked for themselves, and stopped depending on America to save them.

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In my discussion of education funding, I was simply pointing out the fallacy that education budgets are smaller than 50 years ago. That is just not true.
Of course education budgets are bigger! We have more students and more schools. What part of "more people cost more money" did you miss?

Which I already explained is due to inflation, and increased operation costs. Things are simply more expensive now, and we're simply not spending the money WELL. I don't care if we CAN spend more money on our students, it will be worthless if nothing improves. We need to spend money more effectively, I already gave some suggestions to aid with teacher retention.


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Last edited by jonathan7; 11-08-2009 at 10:20 AM. Reason: Snipped Flamebait -- j7
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Old 11-07-2009, 11:09 PM   #31
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<snipped>

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Then maybe you can tell me why almost anyone with any other possible line of work DOESNT go into the army?
For the same reason people with another line of work don't go into medicine, or law, or education. They chose something else. It may be hard for you to believe, but most soldiers join the Army because they want to be in the Army.


Quote:
Oh great, the Clinton excuse. I'm sorry, I thought I was having a rational discussion. If you're gonna turn every argument around to "Darn them liberals!" Then I'll pass thank you.
Deny them all you want, but the facts remain the same. There were several instances of terrorism upon the United States that should have been dealt with more strongly. Our weak-kneed responses only emboldened the enemy.


Quote:
Good for them. Let someone else deal with them. It's time the world did exactly what you said, stood up, worked for themselves, and stopped depending on America to save them.
And I'm sure they will get right on that just because you said so, or because President Obama said so. <snipped>



Quote:
Of course education budgets are bigger! We have more students and more schools. What part of "more people cost more money" did you miss?
And what part of the words "per child" did you miss?

Quote:
I don't care if we CAN spend more money on our students, it will be worthless if nothing improves.
We agree there. However, as I said in a previous post, it isn't about improving schools. It's about focusing on educating children, which starts with stabilizing home life. American society must get back to two-parent homes. The school cannot educate children who have no preparation or support in the home.


Show me a man who is twenty and not a liberal, and I will show you a man with no heart.
Show me a man who is forty and not a conservative, and I will show you a man with no brain.


Last edited by jonathan7; 11-08-2009 at 10:23 AM. Reason: Snipped Flamebait -- j7
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Old 11-08-2009, 10:28 AM   #32
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Let's chill out here guys, this discussion was going so well; let's leave out the sarcasm, short and snidey comments and derogatory remarks at each other and those at an opposite end of the political spectrum please! -- j7



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Old 11-08-2009, 02:29 PM   #33
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For now just an observation: We spend more on schools, yet teachers are still unhappy; hours are getting longer with increased work loads but kids are getting less quality education and preparedness for college or even just the workforce. What's wrong with this picture?

I have my opinions, but I want to see what everyone else has to say about this. I think it is highly relevant to the article as our schools and youth are indicative of future trends to come.
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