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Old 12-07-2009, 07:19 AM   #1
FaZzZa99
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The Confirmed Truth Behind Revan & Malak

As stated by Daniel Erickson of the SW:TOR team during an interview with game informer.

- When Revan and Malak ventured into deep space, they encountered and were turned to the dark side by the Sith Emperor, who convinced them to join the Sith, and sent them back to the known galaxy to weaken the Republic and set the groundwork for a new Sith Empire, so the Sith Emperor could come in and take over.

-"And the emperor of the Old Sith from the Great Hyperspace War, that the Jedi thought they had killed off." Many speculate that this emperor is none other than Naga Sadow (Naga Sadow's tomb wasn't essentially empty for nothing ), it makes sense, it wouldn't be the first time Naga Sadow has cheated death.

-The Emperor's plan was going exactly as intended until Malak overthrew Dark Revan, and took over, as we know, and built his own Sith Empire, who were Sith by name only.

So basically, Revan DID infact turn to the darkside (despite what a select few people think), and along with Malak, was essentially a pawn to the Emperor all along.

Your Thoughts?

http://gameinformer.com/games/star_w...ia/108340.aspx

This really got me thinking, after Revan regained his memory and defeated his former friend Malak, could it have been the Sith Emperor Revan set out to find in his second voyage beyond the known galaxy?

Could Naga Sadow have been the one in the possession of the Star Forge at the time of Revan and Malak's first venture out into deep space? According to Wookieepedia, Ajunta Pall hinted that the Star Forge may have been known to, and used by the Sith, so perhaps it could have been in the possession of Sith Emperors for thousands of years, but over 15,000 years after it's construction by the infinite Empire.

Just something to think about i guess.

Last edited by FaZzZa99; 12-07-2009 at 07:49 AM.
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Old 12-07-2009, 12:32 PM   #2
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One of the more numerously-used fan fiction premises becomes canon, it seems.

Quote:
When Revan and Malak ventured into deep space, they encountered and were turned to the dark side by the Sith Emperor
But Revan and Malak had already turned by the end of the Mandalorian Wars.

Why are they saying that the soldiers of Revan's Sith Empire were not called Sith troopers until Malak took over?

EDIT: Also, KotOR already established that Revan and Malak claimed to be going into unknown space to pursue the last Mandalorians when in reality they were looking for the Star Forge.


"There is something going on in time and space, and beyond time and space, which, whether we like it or not, spells duty." -Winston Churchill

"For of all sad words of tongue or pen, The saddest are these: 'It might have been!'" -John Whittier

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Old 12-07-2009, 05:16 PM   #3
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Really? As I remember it, Revan turned to the dark side out of necessity in order to fortify the Republic against the True Sith. That's what was said in TSL.

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Originally Posted by FaZzZa99 View Post
- When Revan and Malak ventured into deep space, they encountered and were turned to the dark side by the Sith Emperor, who convinced them to join the Sith
Oh, so they didn't go and find the Star Forge anymore?

So first it was the Star Forge that turned Revan and Malak to the dark side as stated in K1.

Then it was Revan turning to the dark side to prevent a greater evil which I could live with as the stories were connected well in TSL.

Now, it was the Sith Emperor of the True Sith in TOR.

Yeah, this gets better and better.


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Last edited by Shem; 12-07-2009 at 05:22 PM.
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Old 12-07-2009, 06:02 PM   #4
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Quote:
Really? As I remember it, Revan turned to the dark side out of necessity in order to fortify the Republic against the True Sith. That's what was said in TSL.
As they say the truth is determine by the person's perspective, or as they a certain point of view.

What we do know now is that Revan turned to the darkside but we still don't know why? Remember Anakin turned because he believed that the Dark lord's power could save his wife. The question is what made Revan turn.

Also remember just as Jedi have conflicts with the dark side erges so do the ones who turn to the dark side. It is very possible that Revan had conflict in him just as Vader did.

I believe Revan as a more complicated figure then simply just turning to the dark side. These details maight be revealed later.


Quote:
Why are they saying that the soldiers of Revan's Sith Empire were not called Sith troopers until Malak took over?
What they meant was the Revan carried the war on as a Sith would by attacking certain target and leaving others alone just as TSL talked about in Revan's method. Malak was just destroy everything..he did not seem to have a real goal but to destroy the enemy head on verse Revan's tatics...like in TSL Revan left certain planets and systems alone because he knew if he was able to win this war he would need a functioning galaxy vs a burning grave yard. As Kreia said Revan conducted a war of conversion. Malak was a war of destruction. That is why they said Malaks sith were sith only in name. Kreia said it best...Sith is a belief. A belief creates a method of conducting ones self in life and persuit of its desire or passion.


As for the timeline of Revan's fall/turn and how the star forge and the Sith Emperor fit into this all....I have a theory( which has been proven right so far) but that will be revealed in my Revenge of Revan Mod.

Logan

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Old 12-07-2009, 06:10 PM   #5
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The Great TSL Retcon continues.... save the "'True' Sith", naturally...
Quote:
As they say the truth is determine by the person's perspective, or as they a certain point of view.
Perhaps, although it was first stated by Kreia, evidence from nearly everyone who either knew or heard of Revan greatly provided evidence for the notion; HK-47, Mandalore, GO-TO, Carth, Atton, etc.
Quote:
What we do know now is that Revan turned to the darkside but we still don't know why? Remember Anakin turned because he believed that the Dark lord's power could save his wife. The question is what made Revan turn.
It was alluded that Revan didn't really "fall" to the dark side, but more or less did so out of necessity, to combat the True Sith. Kreia thought so, and I find it to be quite understandable in the long run.

Again, my largest complaint is the statement that Revan willingly "contacted" the True Sith, and that he served as an emissary and a harbinger for their eventual return, which is quite the contrary to what we've been told so far. Perhaps Mr. Erickson only misspoke, hopefully, though I'm beginning to doubt that...

Last edited by jrrtoken; 12-07-2009 at 06:18 PM.
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Old 12-07-2009, 08:11 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FaZzZa99 View Post
- When Revan and Malak ventured into deep space, they encountered and were turned to the dark side by the Sith Emperor, who convinced them to join the Sith, and sent them back to the known galaxy to weaken the Republic and set the groundwork for a new Sith Empire, so the Sith Emperor could come in and take over.
From infallible, indestructible Mary Sue to gullible dumba$$ pawn with the stroke of a pen, and with neither option being very desirable. Revan's transformation into a Mary Sue was one of the few things that I didn't like about TSL's story, but this complete 180 is even worse, given that his Mary Sue status has been canon for five years.
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Originally Posted by PastramiX View Post
The Great TSL Retcon continues.... save the "'True' Sith", naturally...
I seem to recall predicting a year or so ago that TSL would eventually be retconned away completely as punishment for Obsidian's failure to do the impossible. Way to go, LA, you just keep winning in my book.


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Old 12-07-2009, 09:06 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TKA-001 View Post
One of the more numerously-used fan fiction premises becomes canon, it seems.


But Revan and Malak had already turned by the end of the Mandalorian Wars.

Why are they saying that the soldiers of Revan's Sith Empire were not called Sith troopers until Malak took over?

EDIT: Also, KotOR already established that Revan and Malak claimed to be going into unknown space to pursue the last Mandalorians when in reality they were looking for the Star Forge.
Maybe they had already turned or began to, but i imagine nothing can quite turn you as effectively as a Sith Emperor of the Sith race, which one could argue is the very heart of the darkside in the star wars universe.

The soldiers still went by the name of the Sith under Revan's rule, i was just somewhat vague in the OP in that department.


"More than twenty-five thousand years ago, the Sith were unified by the long-lived King Adas, who led the revolt against Rakata invaders and subsequently acquired Rakatan technology." - Seviss Vaa

Whos to say the Sith weren't in possession of the Starforge at the time, and used it as a lure. Seeing as the Rakatans taught King Adas how to harness such technologies as holocrons and possibly even revealed the star forge, before the Sith drove them away under the assumption they were invaders.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PastramiX View Post
The Great TSL Retcon continues.... save the "'True' Sith", naturally... :¬:
Perhaps, although it was first stated by Kreia, evidence from nearly everyone who either knew or heard of Revan greatly provided evidence for the notion; HK-47, Mandalore, GO-TO, Carth, Atton, etc.It was alluded that Revan didn't really "fall" to the dark side, but more or less did so out of necessity, to combat the True Sith. Kreia thought so, and I find it to be quite understandable in the long run.

Again, my largest complaint is the statement that Revan willingly "contacted" the True Sith, and that he served as an emissary and a harbinger for their eventual return, which is quite the contrary to what we've been told so far. Perhaps Mr. Erickson only misspoke, hopefully, though I'm beginning to doubt that...
Maybe not so willingly, afterall, Revan and Malak DID encounter the Star Maps, and seek out the Star Forge, its just that it could have been in the possession of the Sith Emperor at the time, who may have used it as a lure to bring them in, and convince the two able leaders to do his bidding.

Last edited by RedHawke; 12-09-2009 at 12:15 AM. Reason: Double posting is bad... Mkay?
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Old 12-07-2009, 10:03 PM   #8
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@ OP: Uhh, no offense but this is merely a re-state (albeit updated) of what had been said before in their "SW:TOR world unveiling" issue some time back. I think april '09 IIRC correctly.

Re: Sith Emperor

I guess they might have decided to go with Naga Sadow--but I thought in the Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia it said Freedon Nadd destroyed Sadow's spirit? "Someone has some serious 'splainin' ta do" as the saying goes.

Revan and Malak:
Yeah, Revan and Malak turned to the Dark Side, but was it by the emperor or were they already there? Either way they had turned on one another. I suspect the *first* time they turned on each other was when Revan gave Malak the metal faceplate.

As for the sith empire having "owned" the star forge all this time, We'll see.
Sounds kind of ridiculous to have had something like that all this time in your possession and all of a sudden on a thread things change direction (and not because Revan was awesome--that's a rather poor reason).

It raises a serious question:
Why would the emperor entrust such a highly valuable and powerful artifact to basically a couple of lackeys he just hired? (I might add very willful lackeys at that and not the kind a 1,000+ year old emperor would trust if he were wise enough to have lived that long.) All for deception sake? I don't think so. More likely it was separate all the while from before the time of Planet Tython's influence.

(EDIT: One more thing, if the Emperor had it in his clutches I could only imagine how much worse it would be if HE used it instead of Revan--like the galaxy would have been completely and utterly dominated and there would have been NOTHING anybody could EVER do about it! Considering *that*, then ANY reason for his not using the Star Forge and allowing it to fall into Revan's hands is STUPID, STUPID, STUPID!)

If he (sith emperor) had a half a pea brain--dellusional or NOT--he wouldn't have trusted them!!! But that's just my opinion, don't let common sense get in the way, now. If they have made the plot such that he was actually STUPID enough to trust Revan and Malak, then I dare predict the story of TOR as a whole is going to S U C K !!!
Personal note on that: I know that if I was neutral about this MMO *before*, I will definitely NOT give a second consideration to playing it it if this winds up being the case.

Personally I believe AT BEST the sith may have known about the forge, but that it was out of reach. This would make the most sense. If you look closely at the secret message Bastilla left about revan in TSL (Revan DS scenario), she says something about Revan recognizing the threat to his power. So, that would seem to imply that the true sith didn't have possession of the Star Forge and that it was a separate discovery altogether.

@ BIOWARE: You better *not* have ****ed this up for the whole SW expanded Universe!

Quote:
Originally Posted by PastramiX View Post
The Great TSL Retcon continues.... save the "'True' Sith", naturally... :¬:
Perhaps, although it was first stated by Kreia, evidence from nearly everyone who either knew or heard of Revan greatly provided evidence for the notion; HK-47, Mandalore, GO-TO, Carth, Atton, etc.It was alluded that Revan didn't really "fall" to the dark side, but more or less did so out of necessity, to combat the True Sith. Kreia thought so, and I find it to be quite understandable in the long run.
I second that.

Quote:
Again, my largest complaint is the statement that Revan willingly "contacted" the True Sith, and that he served as an emissary and a harbinger for their eventual return, which is quite the contrary to what we've been told so far. Perhaps Mr. Erickson only misspoke, hopefully, though I'm beginning to doubt that...
If he didn't misspeak then I am going to be sooooo pissed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil Q View Post
From infallible, indestructible Mary Sue to gullible dumba$$ pawn with the stroke of a pen, and with neither option being very desirable. Revan's transformation into a Mary Sue was one of the few things that I didn't like about TSL's story, but this complete 180 is even worse, given that his Mary Sue status has been canon for five years.
Well, remember the whole thing about what a powerful influence Skywalker/Vader exerted on fate, the force and the galaxy? Yet it seems perfectly acceptable that such an epic that he was is essentially null and void before his birth and after his death. Chosen one? Yeah, chosen to be the most pathetic Jedi/Sith ever.

Quote:
I seem to recall predicting a year or so ago that TSL would eventually be retconned away completely as punishment for Obsidian's failure to do the impossible. Way to go, LA, you just keep winning in my book.
What specifically of TSL would be retconned?

Last edited by Darth Avlectus; 12-07-2009 at 11:18 PM.
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Old 12-07-2009, 10:53 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FaZzZa99 View Post
As stated by Daniel Erickson of the SW:TOR team during an interview with game informer.

- When Revan and Malak ventured into deep space, they encountered and were turned to the dark side by the Sith Emperor, who convinced them to join the Sith, and sent them back to the known galaxy to weaken the Republic and set the groundwork for a new Sith Empire, so the Sith Emperor could come in and take over.

-"And the emperor of the Old Sith from the Great Hyperspace War, that the Jedi thought they had killed off." Many speculate that this emperor is none other than Naga Sadow (Naga Sadow's tomb wasn't essentially empty for nothing ), it makes sense, it wouldn't be the first time Naga Sadow has cheated death.

-The Emperor's plan was going exactly as intended until Malak overthrew Dark Revan, and took over, as we know, and built his own Sith Empire, who were Sith by name only.

So basically, Revan DID infact turn to the darkside (despite what a select few people think), and along with Malak, was essentially a pawn to the Emperor all along.

Your Thoughts?

http://gameinformer.com/games/star_w...ia/108340.aspx

This really got me thinking, after Revan regained his memory and defeated his former friend Malak, could it have been the Sith Emperor Revan set out to find in his second voyage beyond the known galaxy?

Could Naga Sadow have been the one in the possession of the Star Forge at the time of Revan and Malak's first venture out into deep space? According to Wookieepedia, Ajunta Pall hinted that the Star Forge may have been known to, and used by the Sith, so perhaps it could have been in the possession of Sith Emperors for thousands of years, but over 15,000 years after it's construction by the infinite Empire.

Just something to think about i guess.
*slams wall*

**** this. I actually supported TOR when everyone else prematurely *****ed about it for no good reason. Now they completely murder TSL as everyone said was going to happen. They murdered the character of Revan, they validated the Jedi when they were completely wrong!

: swear:

I am really really angry right now. My apologies if this post somehow goes against the forum rules, but I really cannot help myself....


As of 3/14/10, TSL is restored. The Sith Lords Restored Content Modification by Stoney and Zbyl has been finished and can be downloaded here.

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Old 12-07-2009, 11:02 PM   #10
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@thread: Oh, Good Lord.

This is ridiculous. What is wrong with these people?!
They keep taking a magnificent, deep, and existing plot and turning it into plain, 10-year-old-friendly, one dimensional garbage!

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTA
@ BIOWARE: You better *not* have ****ed this up for the whole SW expanded Universe!
Quote:
Originally Posted by GTA
If he didn't misspeak then I am going to be sooooo pissed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord of Hunger
*slams wall*

**** this. I actually supported TOR when everyone else prematurely *****ed about it for no good reason. Now they completely murder TSL as everyone said was going to happen. They murdered the character of Revan, they validated the Jedi when they were completely wrong!


CUE. EFF. TEE.



mfw I read the Revan novel

it is not a cry of joy.
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Old 12-08-2009, 12:09 AM   #11
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Well, LA already took a huge osik on the Mandalorians. It was only a matter of time till they messed up one of the best Sith Lords in the EU.
I was already against TOR, but now I despise it almost as much as I despise TCW.

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Old 12-08-2009, 12:20 AM   #12
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Copied from my post on The Old Republic boards:

What I don't think the developers are understanding is that a Jedi Consular is a Jedi Knight. It's a specialized office within the rank. The way they describe the Jedi Knight sounds more like a Jedi Guardian. For this reason, I hope they change the name, offering classes such as "Jedi Knight: Guardian" and "Jedi Knight: Consular."

Also, the only way I can see Revan, Malak and their followers (just the dark Force users, not the foot soldiers) not being "real Sith" is if they did not have the Sith they conquered on Korriban ordain then into their lineage. You see, we know from The Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide that Revan and Malak declared themselves the Lords of the Sith before going to Korriban and conquering what remained of Exar Kun's Sith (and Kun, in turn, was ordained a Sith by the spirit of Marka Ragnos, making him of the same unbroken line of succession). That would mean that Revan and Malak were indeed self-proclaimed Sith in name only at the point of their declaration. Once they conquered Kun's Sith (who truly were true Sith), if they wanted those titles to be valid, they would have had to have forced one of the Sith Lords they conquered to ordain them into their dark order, and then go on to rule over them, Revan being a true Dark Lord. If this did not happen and Kun's Sith were merely destroyed, then yes, Revan and his followers were not Sith.

This, in turn, would mean that the only "true Sith" within the Sith Triumvirate in The Sith Lords was Darth Sion, since the KOTOR Guide says that he originally served under Exar Kun. No wonder the dude was pissed off all the time: he had to bow down to Traya, and then Nihilus, both of whom were "fake Sith."

Anyway, I theorize that if they are going down this particular road, that it will be from the "true Sith Empire" that the line of succession from Ruin to Bane to Palpatine will come, and not from Revan's. Although that makes it sort of problematic because Revan was the primary person responsible for Bane's shaping of the Rule of Two, and Bane even praised Revan as a "true Sith."

Anyway, those are my musings for this evening. Kudos to anyone who has the faintest clue as to what I'm talking about.


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Old 12-08-2009, 03:17 AM   #13
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controversial interview is controversial, time to troll the TOR boards
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Old 12-08-2009, 10:03 AM   #14
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Quote:
It was alluded that Revan didn't really "fall" to the dark side, but more or less did so out of necessity, to combat the True Sith. Kreia thought so, and I find it to be quite understandable in the long run.
Revan's self-justification for his own crimes is irrelevant. What matters here is that they're changing the how and where again.

Quote:
What they meant was the Revan carried the war on as a Sith would by attacking certain target and leaving others alone just as TSL talked about in Revan's method. Malak was just destroy everything..he did not seem to have a real goal but to destroy the enemy head on verse Revan's tatics...like in TSL Revan left certain planets and systems alone because he knew if he was able to win this war he would need a functioning galaxy vs a burning grave yard. As Kreia said Revan conducted a war of conversion. Malak was a war of destruction.
Yet another baseless assumption that Malak was an absolute idiot when it came to warfare. If he was that stupid, then why would Revan make him his second in command? Besides, destroying enemy production facilities as opposed to capturing them hardly means that you can't build new ones.

Quote:
From infallible, indestructible Mary Sue to gullible dumba$$ pawn with the stroke of a pen, and with neither option being very desirable. Revan's transformation into a Mary Sue was one of the few things that I didn't like about TSL's story, but this complete 180 is even worse, given that his Mary Sue status has been canon for five years.
This hardly makes Revan a gullible dumbass, but I am glad to see the fanboys' dreams getting systematically crushed like a pack of cockroaches ("Guess Revan wasn't trying to save the galaxy by becoming an edgy do what hastobe done Sith Lord for the greater good after all"). TOR's story was a failure from the start, but they're almost making up for it by ****ing up other bad canon. A kamikaze recton, so to speak.

Quote:
That would mean that Revan and Malak were indeed self-proclaimed Sith in name only at the point of their declaration. Once they conquered Kun's Sith (who truly were true Sith), if they wanted those titles to be valid, they would have had to have forced one of the Sith Lords they conquered to ordain them into their dark order, and then go on to rule over them, Revan being a true Dark Lord. If this did not happen and Kun's Sith were merely destroyed, then yes, Revan and his followers were not Sith.

This, in turn, would mean that the only "true Sith" within the Sith Triumvirate in The Sith Lords was Darth Sion, since the KOTOR Guide says that he originally served under Exar Kun. No wonder the dude was pissed off all the time: he had to bow down to Traya, and then Nihilus, both of whom were "fake Sith."

Anyway, I theorize that if they are going down this particular road, that it will be from the "true Sith Empire" that the line of succession from Ruin to Bane to Palpatine will come, and not from Revan's. Although that makes it sort of problematic because Revan was the primary person responsible for Bane's shaping of the Rule of Two, and Bane even praised Revan as a "true Sith."

Anyway, those are my musings for this evening. Kudos to anyone who has the faintest clue as to what I'm talking about.
People keep talking about the meaning of the "True" Sith, but so far we haev not been given an example of any fundamental difference between them and other Sith.


"There is something going on in time and space, and beyond time and space, which, whether we like it or not, spells duty." -Winston Churchill

"For of all sad words of tongue or pen, The saddest are these: 'It might have been!'" -John Whittier

"Apathy is death." -Kreia
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Old 12-08-2009, 11:05 AM   #15
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RIP good story that TSL made possible. Even though I knew BioWare wasn't going to follow Obsidian's trail, I hoped they'd respect the facts that TSL told. But they can't even do that.

Revan as the Emperor's pet? Awful. It messes up both KotOR and TSL, and nothing interesting of the concept 'True Sith' is left.


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Old 12-08-2009, 11:42 AM   #16
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Theory

Hello Boys! My name is Linus Brifelt, lives in Sweden, and I'm here to present my theory as to why the idea of Revan "falling to the dark side" by the sith emperor actually could co-exist with Revan "falling out of necessity" when he found the Tartarus academy, as we have been led to believe so far.


So, up to this point we have been led to believe that during the end of the Mandalorian war, Revan stumbled upon the Tartarus sith academy, and realizes that a so-cold "true sith" have been manipulated the entire war, and is preparing to invade the republic. And that Tevan, out of necessity, begins to "use the dark side" to make plans to strategically take over and unite the republic against this new threat.



Now Bioware (with TOR) introduces this new Sith Emperor, change as to why Revan did "fall" to the dark side in the first place, and to....lets be frank: Begins to ignore everything that is taking place in kotor 2,




My theory how to fix all this is actually quite simple:

What if Revan actually meet the Sith Emperor at Tartarus??? Or had him travel there, when Revan "turned on the lights" at the academy.

The Sith Emperor then makes Revan a deal: to become his vanguard and strike at the republic, and to prepare for the coming "true Sith" invasion. Revan agrees.

Quote:
"So basically, Revan DID in-fact turn to the dark side (despite what a select few people think), and along with Malak, was essentially a pawn to the Emperor all along."


NO!!! here's my point: Revan OFFICALY agrees to help the Sith Emperor and to become is “vanguard”, but UNOFFICALY has his own plans, the plan we all already know and love: to strategically take over the republic, and then unite it to defend against this new Sith Emperor and his army.

That way, all we know of Revan as a character remains. He didn't fall to the dark side, he simply did it out of necessity. He "tricked" the emperor to believe that he would make way for his invasion, when in-fact he was trying to unite the galaxy against him.



side-note 1: offcourse this little plan, as we already know, falls apart. Not by Revan, but by his own favorite talking toaster Mr. Malak


side-note 2: I do also agree with you on one thing, and i pray to the gods every night they don't make it "canon" in TOR : That the Sith Emperor potentially gave them the StarForge. That would be absolutely terrible.

It would be more suitable if the Sith Emperor just gives Revan the coordenets to Korriban, to use it as a training ground for Revans troops, and that Revan there, together with Malak, starts to find the map-pieces to the StarForge by themselves


So that's my little theory, hope you like it

PS: o and by the way, excuse my English. I'm not from a English speaking country, and I don't normally post this much at forum sites, But my love for the kotor saga is endless and so important to me (since Mr Lucas totally destroyed the prequels) that I just had so say something

=)

Have a good one!

Last edited by Linuf; 12-08-2009 at 11:59 AM.
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Old 12-08-2009, 01:00 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by FaZzZa99 View Post
- When Revan and Malak ventured into deep space, they encountered and were turned to the dark side by the Sith Emperor, who convinced them to join the Sith, and sent them back to the known galaxy to weaken the Republic and set the groundwork for a new Sith Empire, so the Sith Emperor could come in and take over.
[denial]SWToR does not exist la la la...[/denial]

That doesn't make any sense Revan being a pawn of the Emperor, considering he went on to create his holocron which plain as day says there can only be one Sith Lord.

Quote:
"The strong must be careful lest they be overwhelmed by the ambitions of those working beneath them in concert. Any master who instructs more than one apprentice in the ways of the dark side is a fool. In time, the apprentices will unite their strengths and overthrow the master. It is inevitable; axiomatic. That is why each master must have only one student.

This is also the reason there can only be one Dark Lord. The Sith must be ruled by a single leader: the very embodiment of the strength and power of the dark side. If the leader grows weak another must rise to seize the mantle. The strong rule; the weak are meant to serve. This is the way it must be."
I wonder what Drew Karpyshyn thinks of this considering he was the lead writer on the first KoToR and wrote Darth Bane Path of Destruction and The Rule of Two.


"Savior, conqueror, hero, villain. You are all things, Revan… and yet you are nothing. In the end, you belong to neither the light nor the darkness. You will forever stand alone."

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Old 12-08-2009, 05:53 PM   #18
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RIP good story that TSL made possible. Even though I knew BioWare wasn't going to follow Obsidian's trail, I hoped they'd respect the facts that TSL told. But they can't even do that.
Ego. Pathetic, isn't it? Now it's potentially going to be:
-that Exile may never have been

-Traya was never Revan's first teacher

-Sion and Nihilus were never really a threat

-Somehow Vrook Kavar and Zez Kai Ell ended up being the new foundation.


They butcher it any more and I will puke blood.

Quote:
Revan as the Emperor's pet? Awful. It messes up both KotOR and TSL, and nothing interesting of the concept 'True Sith' is left.
QF--Revan a pet that was true to himself. Oh yeah, that makes a LOT of sense. Let's just simplify it so 10 year olds without the brightest bulb will glom onto it and the story will eat donkey turds.

Why do I hear the rustling of a cash register? Oh, b/c this reaks of a quick grab at $$$ and little else.

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Originally Posted by Linuf View Post
Hello Boys! My name is Linus Brifelt, lives in Sweden, and I'm here to present my theory (*brevity*)
WELCOME TO LF! I myself actually joined because of this subsection of these KOTOR forums! I hope you'll make yourself at home here. You'll find this forum is full of friendly people of all sorts and united by our common love of Star Wars. Glad to have you on board!

Fair warning I can be kind of a sarcastic fellow and shift from joking to serious without warning. (For which other members I sort of respected dinged me for it. ) I don't mean to be rude at all so please take no offense.

Quote:
So, up to this point we have been led to believe that during the end of the Mandalorian war, Revan stumbled upon the Tartarus sith academy, and realizes that a so-cold "true sith" have been manipulated the entire war, and is preparing to invade the republic. And that Tevan, out of necessity, begins to "use the dark side" to make plans to strategically take over and unite the republic against this new threat.
That is one interpretation of what is implied by the facts, yes.
Quote:
Now Bioware (with TOR) introduces this new Sith Emperor, change as to why Revan did "fall" to the dark side in the first place, and to....lets be frank: Begins to ignore everything that is taking place in kotor 2,
Yes, that is the problem.
Quote:
My theory how to fix all this is actually quite simple:

What if Revan actually meet the Sith Emperor at Tartarus??? Or had him travel there, when Revan "turned on the lights" at the academy.
Because it points to Revan being a puppet of the sith emperor.

Unless this ties in with "where he was born" as Kreia in TSL briefly alludes to with "perhaps, the call of home", AND perhaps the possibility of Revan since birth was watched by the sith emperor; then the ideas that
1) Revan was a puppet the whole time,
2) Revan were so easily turned to the dark side under influence of another, 3) trusted so easily (star forge or NOT) by such a prestigious figure as this sith emperor, is flimsy and borders on somewhat ridiculous.

Not to say that there isn't a way to make TOR work--but as you can see our faith in BioWare's story telling is quickly fading--or at least mine is, as I don't speak for anyone else here!

Quote:
The Sith Emperor then makes Revan a deal: to become his vanguard and strike at the republic, and to prepare for the coming "true Sith" invasion. Revan agrees.

Quote:
Quote:
"So basically, Revan DID in-fact turn to the dark side (despite what a select few people think), and along with Malak, was essentially a pawn to the Emperor all along."
NO!!! here's my point: Revan OFFICALY agrees to help the Sith Emperor and to become is “vanguard”, but UNOFFICALY has his own plans, the plan we all already know and love: to strategically take over the republic, and then unite it to defend against this new Sith Emperor and his army.

That way, all we know of Revan as a character remains. He didn't fall to the dark side, he simply did it out of necessity. He "tricked" the emperor to believe that he would make way for his invasion, when in-fact he was trying to unite the galaxy against him.
Well, okay. That is basically how I thought it would work. I see we do sort of think similarly here. I had thought similarly that ONE meeting ONLY might work. And it would have needed to be further out into the Sith Empire.

He would have needed to create a feint or a deception. I have not found flaws IF he somehow made himself out of reach for Revan if Revan ever came back looking. Plotting his feint upon Revan and Malak's willfull defiance, duplicity, and eventual betrayal of each other.

Problem: the ancient sith would need to have some way of being out of reach AND nigh undetectable while they watched and prepared. This is ambiguous at best with little evidence.

Problem: If Revan and Malak already fell to the dark side, did they uncover the star forge before or after meeting the Emperor?

Problem: Recall Revan uncovered information about the StarForge early on in their journey? If they hadn't fallen until after meeting the emperor then why wouldn't the emperor have just hijacked the Star Forge? revan nearly wiped out the Galaxy anyways. Even if they had already fallen, I still see this as a problem.

Quote:
side-note 1: offcourse this little plan, as we already know, falls apart. Not by Revan, but by his own favorite talking toaster Mr. Malak


side-note 2: I do also agree with you on one thing, and i pray to the gods every night they don't make it "canon" in TOR : That the Sith Emperor potentially gave them the StarForge. That would be absolutely terrible.
For a newb I think I'm liking this one already!

Quote:
It would be more suitable if the Sith Emperor just gives Revan the coordenets to Korriban, to use it as a training ground for Revans troops, and that Revan there, together with Malak, starts to find the map-pieces to the StarForge by themselves


So that's my little theory, hope you like it
Ok not bad, but now I am looking now for people to find flaws and holes in these theories which are similar to yours.

Quote:
PS: o and by the way, excuse my English. I'm not from a English speaking country, and I don't normally post this much at forum sites, But my love for the kotor saga is endless and so important to me (since Mr Lucas totally destroyed the prequels) that I just had so say something

=)

Have a good one!
That's ok! Just keep posting here and your english will get better!

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Originally Posted by Thanatos9t View Post
[denial]SWToR does not exist la la la...[/denial]

That doesn't make any sense Revan being a pawn of the Emperor, considering he went on to create his holocron which plain as day says there can only be one Sith Lord.



I wonder what Drew Karpyshyn thinks of this considering he was the lead writer on the first KoToR and wrote Darth Bane Path of Destruction and The Rule of Two.
I think Revan had *discovered* that possibly b/c his own plans were falling apart due to several of his own errors in this manner. But you do have a valid point.

BTW today id the release of the third and final installment: Dynasty of Evil.


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Old 12-08-2009, 08:54 PM   #19
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What specifically of TSL would be retconned?
Like I said; all of it. Apparently not one bit of Avellone's vision will remain unchanged by the time they're done defiling it.


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Old 12-08-2009, 09:39 PM   #20
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I must have missed the part about Revan and Malak serving the Emperor when I typed up my last post, but I actually don't really have much of a problem with this (mainly because I was never a Revan groupie and always thought he was a bit overrated, actually liking Malak better), and it may actually solve the problem I mentioned of the whole true-Sith-false-Sith. Revan and Malak may have been ordained as Sith by the Emperor, and the Revan, and Malak after him, were only puppet Dark Lords in service to the big Dark Lord of the Sith: the Emperor.


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YOURS VERY SLOW ! PLS NEW PROGRESSS PLS NEW UPDATES PLS DARK FORCES FİNAL VERSİON İ CAN WAİTİNG KOTF PART 1 RELEASED 5 YEAR AND İTS 1 MAN ( OSMAN GUNYAZ DEVELOPERS ) BUT YOURS VERY PEOPLE İ CANT WAİTİNG 5 YEARS
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Old 12-08-2009, 09:46 PM   #21
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I'm hoping he simply condensed the whole Revan background thing for the sake of the interview. After all, if TOR does include a large story arc pertaining to Revan (he was the basis of KOTOR after all), an interview, perhaps years before the game comes out, isn't the place to let all the spoilers fly.

As others have said, perhaps there is a deeper "Why?", "How?", and "Where?", at least I hope so.
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Old 12-08-2009, 10:05 PM   #22
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Like I said; all of it. Apparently not one bit of Avellone's vision will remain unchanged by the time they're done defiling it.
Avellone's vision was one which is incompatible with the rest of established Star Wars, so his vision of in-universe morality and how the Force works being invalidated is nothing if not a blessing for the continuity. That said, I'm not pleased that basic events of the previous story are being mucked up (TOR has pissed on previously established good canon literally from the first second of its inception); what I am saying is that the more doubt there is thrown on the ideas that Avellone's Fixer Sue stand-ins (Kreia, Canderous, HK-47, Atton, et cetera) peddled to us in TSL, the better. The story was good; its intended message was not.


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Old 12-08-2009, 10:52 PM   #23
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As they say the truth is determine by the person's perspective, or as they a certain point of view.
Yet so many people in TSL if you remembered the game was the exact same. Talk to Kreia, Canderous, Mical, Atton, HK-47, and Goto. Revan was preparing the Republic for something bigger that was coming. It basically went into more depth of Revan's turn to the dark side and if you connect the dots, you find what Revan's goal was by turning to the dark side out of necessity. This wasn't just one person's opinion. This was fact. TOR is basically saying that TSL doesn't count and don't pay any attention to what was said in that game, which seriously blows.

So not only did TSL get shafted with its timeline for development, but its story is being cast aside, trying to be forgotten. I've read speculation about that, but it's more evident that they're doing that unless there is some other evidence out there that isn't the case. This just reinforces my opinion that TOR can burn in hell. This once great franchise is being drug down by becoming an MMO as it is. Now with TSL being thrown out like it didn't happen, well, I'm basically giving the middle finger to BioWare on this one.


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Old 12-09-2009, 12:22 AM   #24
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*slams wall*

**** this. I actually supported TOR when everyone else prematurely *****ed about it for no good reason. Now they completely murder TSL as everyone said was going to happen. They murdered the character of Revan, they validated the Jedi when they were completely wrong!

: swear:

I am really really angry right now. My apologies if this post somehow goes against the forum rules, but I really cannot help myself....
Nope no rule broken...

When people mess with things I do like in a story to introduce some crappy schlock I don't like I usually do this...



Then proceed to attempt to ignore it altogether.

This is why I believe the way I do about the whole of the Star Wars EU... I see it all as a large Star Wars 'Salad Bar' I can take what I want and gladly LEAVE the rest.

TOR had so much promise but lacks in all areas for me, like the first SWG did. So come all to DDO... we literally do get cookies during the holidays.


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Old 12-09-2009, 12:23 PM   #25
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This is why I believe the way I do about the whole of the Star Wars EU... I see it all as a large Star Wars 'Salad Bar' I can take what I want and gladly LEAVE the rest.

It's sad that Star Wars has come to this, but RedHawke is absolutely right here. How much more are we going to have to pick and choose to create our own individual Star Wars?

Entire stories are being overwritten, and canon events are being replaced by jokes. First the Mandalorians, now Kotor II! Who knows what's next...


On the bright side, we know who the "True" Sith are finally. Those money hungry bastards...


I hope that TOR doesn't end up being like this. It's bad enough that I'm going to have to pay money every month to keep it, but now I'm getting a "slap you in the face" storyline with it too? Looks like it's time to find a new game franchise...

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Old 12-09-2009, 05:06 PM   #26
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Nope no rule broken...

When people mess with things I do like in a story to introduce some crappy schlock I don't like I usually do this...



Then proceed to attempt to ignore it altogether.

This is why I believe the way I do about the whole of the Star Wars EU... I see it all as a large Star Wars 'Salad Bar' I can take what I want and gladly LEAVE the rest.

TOR had so much promise but lacks in all areas for me, like the first SWG did. So come all to DDO... we literally do get cookies during the holidays.
You've said that before and that's the best piece of advice one could give on the EU.
I lost all faith on the EU being able to maintain any sort of continuity long ago. Every new story means new retcons to try to patch it all together and they're usually bad.
Maybe Revan can get some love from DrewK. since he's joining TOR's writing team.

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{snip}
I prefer K1 due to it's "pure" Star Wars feel. That doesn't mean I discount TSL's story. It's a different kind of story and my only complaint is that it was unfinished. Kreia is probably the best written character from that era. Which is evident from all the love/hate she generates.

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Old 12-09-2009, 09:02 PM   #27
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Ok guys, please keep it on topic, rants about TSL should be in threads pertaining directly to that particular game. Deleted the responses TSL rant caused too. -- j7



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Old 12-09-2009, 09:15 PM   #28
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TBH, I pretty much guessed this.
It was pretty obvious the second I heard about the 'True Sith'.


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Old 12-10-2009, 12:35 AM   #29
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Meh, too bad. I'm sure they could have thought up at least a half dozen more interesting ideas that still involved the new sithies in some way. Oh well.


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Old 12-10-2009, 11:12 AM   #30
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Ok guys, please keep it on topic, rants about TSL should be in threads pertaining directly to that particular game. Deleted the responses TSL rant caused too. -- j7
<snipped flamebait>

Moderator note [12-10-2009 02:29 PM]

Take a week off to consider your posting habits, you may wish to spend the time acquainting yourself with the Forum Rules, reposting deleted posts , flaming moderators, and amusingly questioning their intelligence (which is a none too bright thing to do) results in getting yourself in trouble. I am highly sceptical in that week that you will somehow become a productive forum member, but I shall give you the benefit of the doubt this time -- j7


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Old 12-10-2009, 11:26 AM   #31
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Smart move.
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Old 12-10-2009, 08:05 PM   #32
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Yikes, what was that all about....


"My blasters are always set to stun, princess."
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Old 12-11-2009, 02:25 AM   #33
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Aaanyway.

I suppose this is a tad premature. We don't know yet how much/little has been taken away from TSL yet. I'm not going to get my hopes up they'll keep it, though some consolation is that the same reason that TSL was rushed through: L.A.

TOR may not necessarily invalidate TSL. We'll just have to wait and see.


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Old 12-12-2009, 01:22 AM   #34
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Post from Daniel Erikson on the TOR forums -

Wow. Great thread. It's fantastic to see all the excitement around the KOTOR lore. There is much that we obviously aren’t revealing but I did want to clear up any misconceptions about what I was talking about in the interview.

* Revan and Malak went into deep space and met the Sith Emperor. They were turned and sent back to prepare the way for the return of the true Sith.
* Being Sith and away from the Emperor’s direct influence neither Revan nor Malak followed orders exactly as they were supposed to. Then, of course, Malak betrayed Revan.
* The Jedi took in Revan and returned him to the light, though as it was not a natural turn for him when he went dark, there was much they couldn’t undo and they decided to remove his memories and hopefully his taint with it. Yes, Revan’s return to the light (and his gender as male) are canon.
* Later Revan returned to deep space to confront what he knew was out there but how much he actually remembered and how clearly he remembered it is still a mystery, as are the events that followed. What we do know is that it took hundreds of years for the Sith to re-emerge as originally planned.

The rest is all speculation and have fun with that. For those of you convinced that somehow we’re going to destroy KOTOR, I ask you to remember that the creative team (including the lead writer and lead designer) that was in charge of KOTOR’s story is on this staff, working on this game. Trust us that our investment in this lore is at least as strong as yours.
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Old 12-12-2009, 03:16 AM   #35
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Wouldn't it have been easier to... you know... not say anything at all? I mean, leave it a mystery, that is. This whole thing is just so convoluted.

Revan met the sith emperor, and got turned to the dark side? But it wasn't natural? So they gave him amnesia? And then he went back out there to the unknown, and then its a mystery.

or:

Revan fell to the dark side in the Unknown Regions for an unknown reason. Because of this, the jedi wiped his memory rather than trying to sway him back. Later he went back to the Unknown and then its a mystery.

Not like anyone in the game knew he met the sith emperor. And now they're retconning and making crap up for no reason than to leave no question unanswered. Silly.


"My blasters are always set to stun, princess."
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Old 12-12-2009, 09:09 PM   #36
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Really? As I remember it, Revan turned to the dark side out of necessity in order to fortify the Republic against the True Sith. That's what was said in TSL.

Oh, so they didn't go and find the Star Forge anymore?

So first it was the Star Forge that turned Revan and Malak to the dark side as stated in K1.

Then it was Revan turning to the dark side to prevent a greater evil which I could live with as the stories were connected well in TSL.

Now, it was the Sith Emperor of the True Sith in TOR.

Yeah, this gets better and better.
I don't think it's said that the Sith Emperor was responsible for their fall the dark side. Instead, I think it is implied that he was the one who made them Sith (which, if you think about it, would mean that Revan, Malak, and all of their followers were indeed true Sith, despite what Kreia said). Remember, falling to the dark side and joining the Sith are not the same thing, and they need not necessarily occur at once.









[Edit] For those concerned that they are ignoring The Sith Lords altogether, the following is copied from my two latest posts on The Old Republic's forum:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommycat View Post
Actually I think I remember the "true Sith" was given mention in the first game's loading screens.
Dude, I believe we (collectively) have been through this many times on these forums now: The "true Sith" mentioned in the loading screen was obviously a throw-away line that they intended to do nothing with. And it clearly does not refer to the same group that Kreia refers to. In the loading screen, seems clear (sorry to be so redundant here) that "true Sith" refers to the Sith species seen in the Tales of the Jedi comics, in order to differentiate between them and the mostly human Sith seen in the game. The "true Sith" mentioned in The Sith Lords originally referred to something else entirely, having nothing to do with the line of succession that was a hybrid of the Sith species and the exiled Dark Jedi from the Hundred-Year Darkness (despite the claims LucasArts is making to the contrary now, Obsidian clearly had something else in mind back when they made the game); but now it refers to the remnant of the Old Sith Empire that has been plotting in secret from the Unknown Regions, fleeing known space after the Great Hyperspace war.

Sorry to sound so snappy, but I'm getting a little tired of people trying to point out that the "true Sith" idea came from the first game when it obviously did not. In fact, I doubt very much that BioWare ever anticipated that that one line from the loading screen - which was obviously used without much thought to describe something very simple to the audience - would gain so much attention later on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PastramiX View Post
That doesn't really clear anything up, but only confirms mine and others suspicions that TSL's canon is being ignored and even flat-out retconned. He seems to have pulled Revan's allegiance to the Sith Emperor out of thin air, as that was never even hinted at in K1. Also, notice how he speaks of preserving KotOR's canon as if it is the monastery at Petra, but says nothing concerning K2, not even an allusion or implication.
Uh, how? Retconned, yes, but certainly not ignored. Why? because this whole "true Sith" idea comes straight out of The Sith Lords (and if you're thinking of using the but-they-were-mentioned-in-KOTOR excuse, see my above post). In fact, it was because of TSL's ending that fans have been anxiously wondering about these mysterious "true Sith" for years, such fascination clearly being the driving motive behind the story of this game.

How was Revan's allegiance to the Sith Emperor hinted at in KOTOR? Also, kudos for mentioning the Monastery of Petra!


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Old 12-19-2009, 07:11 PM   #37
godofsith
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shem View Post
Really? As I remember it, Revan turned to the dark side out of necessity in order to fortify the Republic against the True Sith. That's what was said in TSL.

Oh, so they didn't go and find the Star Forge anymore?

So first it was the Star Forge that turned Revan and Malak to the dark side as stated in K1.

Then it was Revan turning to the dark side to prevent a greater evil which I could live with as the stories were connected well in TSL.

Now, it was the Sith Emperor of the True Sith in TOR.

Yeah, this gets better and better.

how sayed that this so calld emperor was not on the starforge wateing for them sith are wierd like that some times he might ave known thay were coming and gon there to wate for them

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the sith are the most powerfull beings in the univers and i am a god

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Old 12-20-2009, 06:39 AM   #38
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^ I thought we had rules on this forum about deliberately using terrible grammar...

I can't understand any of that post.

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Old 12-20-2009, 12:26 PM   #39
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^ I thought we had rules on this forum about deliberately using terrible grammar...

I can't understand any of that post.
He's saying he thinks the True Sith knew Revan was coming and met him on the Star Forge. Load of bull if you ask me.


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Old 12-20-2009, 01:43 PM   #40
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how sayed that this so calld emperor was not on the starforge wateing for them sith are wierd like that some times he might ave known thay were coming and gon there to wate for them
<snipped>

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