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Old 02-04-2010, 10:20 PM   #1
Ghost
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Clone Wars: Degrading the good Mandalorian Name

http://www.cartoonnetwork.com/tv_sho...ars/index.html



Ugh, this latest clone wars makes me want to puke. LucasFilm apparently turned the Mandalorians into peace-loving idiots, completely or no-honour raiders, ruining the whole Mandalorian Name. To LucasFilm: Mandalorians are supposed to be honorable warriors who follow a code, not a peace-loving civilization, and even the "DeathWatch" were dishonorable. Their leader did not have the courage to die by Kenobi's hand. Which Mandalore the Ultimate did by Revan's Hand. Hopefully the Mandalorian Code will reign again, if LucasFilm has the creativity and common sense to put them back to what they were intended to be. Atleast the other CW episodes are decent and don't ruin things set by games/books before, but this one does

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Old 02-04-2010, 10:35 PM   #2
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Quote:
Mandalorians are supposed to be honorable warriors who follow a code,
Actually, the Mandalorian "code of honor" really just boils down to "never run away from or pass up an opportunity for a fight." Considering what the Mandalorians do in the canon (especially the KotOR era), the "stereotype" of them on the whole being a bunch of bloodthirsty thugs is hardly inaccurate or a new development.

Furthermore, I think that whether the individual story is good or not is more important than whether it contradicts previously established material, considering how incoherent and ****ed up the canon is.


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Old 02-04-2010, 11:05 PM   #3
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I personally think that the new version of the Mandalorians makes more sense than the previous person. I haven't read any of the comics, but from what I understand, a few decades before TPM, the Mandalorians were spreading their murdering/raiding/raping/kidnapping a little too far, so the Jedi came and kicked their collective butt, killing most of them. Frankly, it only makes sense that the remaining Mandos would decide that becoming peaceful was the way to go, since the whole galaxy hates 'em. Of course, there would be a few dissenters who wanted to keep fighting, hence the Death Watch part of the episode.


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Old 02-04-2010, 11:37 PM   #4
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Yes, but it still does not make sense that the Mandos would just throw away their heritage, but before TPM, yes they were bloodthirsty punks, but during the Kotor Era they had more common sense then that. Well, atleast until after the Mando Wars.
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Old 02-05-2010, 12:23 AM   #5
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The Mongolians were once a bloodthirsty race of warriors feared throughout Asia - they were known for acts of horrific cruelty, infallible strategy and an unorthodox battle ethic known for its cunning and unpredictability. They were brutal, they were the scourge of the land and they created the world's largest contiguous land empire.

Today, Mongolia is largely insignificant in terms of world politics; the culture, while pure, is largely unrecognised in the world and militarily, they wouldn't come anywhere near their neighbours. They have a much smaller economy than many and are not only a peaceful, but hospital people.

Moral of the story: Times change, people change.
Corollary: Don't watch Clone Wars.


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Old 02-05-2010, 02:27 AM   #6
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The harsh truth about all this is people need to remember that Star Wars was originally George Lucas' vision and that means he has a right to do whatever he wants with it.


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Old 02-05-2010, 03:17 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Johnathon-Mk II
Yes, but it still does not make sense that the Mandos would just throw away their heritage, but before TPM, yes they were bloodthirsty punks, but during the Kotor Era they had more common sense then that. Well, atleast until after the Mando Wars.
I'm going to explain this one more time to all of the young kids here who love the Mandos, especially the Kotor Mandos:

They were Nazis by another name. They almost always have been. Even those that were semi-likable like Canderous were still admitted bloodthirsty murders. Despite what he claimed, he no longer had any honor and really neither did any of the Mandalorians at the Kotor period. That was sort of the point.

They deliberately went out of their way looking for fights. They razed planets, tried to extinguish species, and genocide much of the outer rim. The point of much of the dialogue in Kotor and TSL between you and them was to show that they had a vastly skewed idea of honor, which translated to "I'm allowed to murder whoever I want whenever I want because doing so makes me strong".

Boba and Jango, and even some of the Clones help give the Mandalorian name a boost but in the end there is almost nothing to respect about their people, except for those whom are now apparently uncool because they are "pacifists".

Mandalore the Ultimate died because Revan personally sought him out and killed him. Because he was a Hitler of the Star Wars universe. He had no honor, and neither did a single Mandalorian of the Old Republic. Their race, at home, is one of seeming peace but there really has been almost no media that portrays Mandalorans as anything else but the very worst kind of people.

In this sense, these pacifist Mandalorians are probably the best thing to happen to their lore. Sorry, but "punks" isn't a word I'd use to describe a race that deliberately went out of their way to try to bring Cathar to extinction, man woman and child.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shem View Post
The harsh truth about all this is people need to remember that Star Wars was originally George Lucas' vision and that means he has a right to do whatever he wants with it.
This.

Last edited by True_Avery; 02-05-2010 at 03:34 AM.
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Old 02-05-2010, 03:54 AM   #8
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^When you put it that way the idea of Space Nazis is a lot less cool than it was before, and that damages the whole concept of adding 'Space' in front of any other noun for fun.

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Old 02-05-2010, 04:10 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shem View Post
The harsh truth about all this is people need to remember that Star Wars was originally George Lucas' vision and that means he has a right to do whatever he wants with it.
I really HATE that statement yet I hold it to be true... It's one of those Hard Truths, but that doesn't mean its a good enough answer for me.

I wont go into my opinion fully because I wasted far too many finger skin cells bangin my keyboard over this, but, George made it very clear that people couldn't mess with 19 BBY- 0 BBY... so they didn't, he made a fortune from other eras and the Canon was good. He had no interest in the Mandalorians so Other Writers making money for him did, and we invested in and loved said Group of Warriors.

You see, Dave Filoni brought the Mandos to the Table not George, George actually showed no interest, but later agreed during season 2. I think Dave was trying to bring in the EU crowd who had not shown love for TCW, but what he actually did was chum the Mandalorian Waters, and now wonders why there are teeth marks all over the Continuity. There was no need to mention the Mandos in my Opinion, the average Cartoon network slamo doesn't care about that stuff, and a Film only buff wouldn't know Jango was a Mando... Turns out, now he aint. Its just Retcon for the sake of Retcon, the story was meh at best, but now we have a mess...

edit: Oh yea and for the record, Black Lightsabers are by far the worst thing I've ever seen period, makes me vomit a little in my Mouth, I wasn't too irked by them in TFU, because, it was optional and not canon, so only the weird people would use them in the safety of their own bedrooms, but now...

Black-Lightsabers??, what is this, like 1984



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Old 02-05-2010, 05:58 AM   #10
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There's nothing 'good' about the name 'Mandalorian'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by True_Avery
*snip*
I've seen people seriously argue that they're not like that anymore, and are noble and honourable people now. While there are very few truly honourable races or organisations in SW (even the Jedi), the Mandalorians in any instance have never been 'honourable', and this cult developed by Traviss and others annoys me because it's painting what are the Star Wars Universe's answer to the Klingon Empire as 'nice people' when that couldn't be farther from the truth.






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Old 02-05-2010, 06:00 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by True_Avery View Post
I'm going to explain this one more time to all of the young kids here who love the Mandos, especially the Kotor Mandos:

They were Nazis by another name. They almost always have been. Even those that were semi-likable like Canderous were still admitted bloodthirsty murders. Despite what he claimed, he no longer had any honor and really neither did any of the Mandalorians at the Kotor period. That was sort of the point.

They deliberately went out of their way looking for fights. They razed planets, tried to extinguish species, and genocide much of the outer rim. The point of much of the dialogue in Kotor and TSL between you and them was to show that they had a vastly skewed idea of honor, which translated to "I'm allowed to murder whoever I want whenever I want because doing so makes me strong".

Boba and Jango, and even some of the Clones help give the Mandalorian name a boost but in the end there is almost nothing to respect about their people, except for those whom are now apparently uncool because they are "pacifists".

Mandalore the Ultimate died because Revan personally sought him out and killed him. Because he was a Hitler of the Star Wars universe. He had no honor, and neither did a single Mandalorian of the Old Republic. Their race, at home, is one of seeming peace but there really has been almost no media that portrays Mandalorans as anything else but the very worst kind of people.

In this sense, these pacifist Mandalorians are probably the best thing to happen to their lore. Sorry, but "punks" isn't a word I'd use to describe a race that deliberately went out of their way to try to bring Cathar to extinction, man woman and child.
this.

I love mandalorian armor design. but thats about it. I don't love/hate them, but i lean toward the hate side a little bit - i dislike them.

If i lived in the SW universe, i'd hate their guts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by adamq
There was no need to mention the Mandos in my Opinion, the average Cartoon network slamo doesn't care about that stuff, and a Film only buff wouldn't know Jango was a Mando... Turns out, now he aint. Its just Retcon for the sake of Retcon, the story was meh at best, but now we have a mess...
Jango?? wha-?

WHAT DID THEY DO



mfw I read the Revan novel

it is not a cry of joy.

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Old 02-05-2010, 06:26 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan View Post

Jango?? wha-?

WHAT DID THEY DO
Well apparently, Jango "Found" a set of Mando style Armor, and he isn't a Mandalorian... (This is of course, coming from a Pacifist Mandos mouth)

Complete Crap anyway, regardless of the Mando plot, TCW sux for lack of an adult argument.


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Old 02-05-2010, 06:32 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Johnathon-Mk II
Mandalorians are supposed to be honorable warriors who follow a code
Again, one of the points made by K1 and TSL was that their honor was severely twisted and black-hearted which ultimately was the reason why they killed so many people, and then were beaten down severely. This point is again hit home by the fact they have once again invaded Republic space and are killing people in the MMO as some fort of... honor redemption or something. Instead of rebuilding themselves and being productive they just rebuild themselves for the sole purpose of mass killing more people in the name of their lost honor.

Any Mando that isn't involved in that is a Merc or Bounty Hunter. In this respect they are much like the Krogans in Mass Effect; they are, as Mordin puts it, "Cave-men with nukes".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astor View Post
There's nothing 'good' about the name 'Mandalorian'.

I've seen people seriously argue that they're not like that anymore, and are noble and honourable people now. While there are very few truly honourable races or organisations in SW (even the Jedi), the Mandalorians in any instance have never been 'honourable', and this cult developed by Traviss and others annoys me because it's painting what are the Star Wars Universe's answer to the Klingon Empire as 'nice people' when that couldn't be farther from the truth.
To be fair to the Lore, however, there are a few traits to them that, if looked at alone, could be seem as pluses:

Revan's Mask, for instance, is from a Mandalorian woman whom tried to defend civilians from being involved in the conflict. Revan honors her sacrifice by wearing the mask as a symbol of sorts.

...

This is, of course, ignoring the fact that she invaded their planet in the first place and probably had no problem with killing every armed person on the planet, but I digress...

According to EU, and on what timeline you're on, they were a pretty decent race at home*. They allowed same-sex marriages, treated women equally to men, and had a strong work ethic and a very strong community support structure and, overall, if you followed their rules they often accepted you regardless of race, origin, and so on. I'm guessing the Mandalorian writers were fans of the StarShip Trooper book.

*Again, this is "honorable" in-so-far as their own communities. This still ignores the fact they invade and destroy on a regular basis for seemingly no other reason than to "test themselves", as Canderous put it.

By themselves, on their own planet and within their own communities, they could be argued to be a pretty "honorable" and "peaceful"(used loosely) nomadic race.

They are still, however, Space Nazi ***holes who flip-flop on their "honor" and always will be. Why they are perceived as cool villains is easy to see; why so many on this forum seem to laud over them like a superior race is beyond me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan
I love mandalorian armor design. but thats about it. I don't love/hate them, but i lean toward the hate side a little bit - i dislike them.

If i lived in the SW universe, i'd hate their guts.
Oh, yeah, as Characters they're great fun. Easy to dislike, yet pretty badass as a group.

The idea of this faction being a group of Warrior-Monks makes them far more respectable than the bloodthirsty mercenaries they've always been. I'm all for this addition by George.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan
Jango?? wha-?

WHAT DID THEY DO
Jango/Boba/Clones are not Mandalorians. They are "Mandalorians". Technically, only Jango is a "Mandalorian". He was picked up by a group of "Mandalorians" and trained in their ways and found some Mando armor. He and the rest in Clone Wars are about as much Mando as your local Neo-Nazis are actual Nazis. Boba even less-so, as he trained himself for the most part from a digital book handed down to him by Jango, and almost all of his experience from, like, 15 and on was as a Merc for Jabba. Boba is a Mando in armor only.

As far as I know the actual race of grey eyed human-likes we saw in Kotor is a dead race and the Mandos around in Jango and Boba's time are cheap imitations holding onto a dead race's failed ideals. Essentially a dead religion that they stubbornly refuse to bury. Least that is what I understand from the books. Perhaps those were retconned as well.

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Old 02-05-2010, 07:00 AM   #14
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We all know that the Taung were the Original Mandalorians but they died out maybe 4000 years before Jango. Saying Jango isn't a Mando is like saying Darth Vader isn't a sith, because he's not a Red skinned humanoid from Ziost. Until this episode Jango was as much a Mandalorian as anyone, even though he was adopted, in fact adoption is a big part of Mando Culture, Orphaned by the battlefield etc. my Main Problem is, they are changing stuff for no reason IMO.

(this is directed at Dave Filoni, not directly quoting Avery btw)


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Old 02-05-2010, 07:47 AM   #15
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We all know that the Taung were the Original Mandalorians but they died out maybe 4000 years before Jango. Saying Jango isn't a Mando is like saying Darth Vader isn't a sith, because he's not a Red skinned humanoid from Ziost. Until this episode Jango was as much a Mandalorian as anyone, even though he was adopted, in fact adoption is a big part of Mando Culture, Orphaned by the battlefield etc. my Main Problem is, they are changing stuff for no reason IMO.
Hm, at the point of Clone Wars It'd probably be more "correct" to call them Neo-Mandalorians, and even Palpatine a Neo-Sith. Not distant because of lack of the original race so much as distant due to both their respective factions being long faded.

But yeah, needless changes.

Quote:
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edit: Oh yea and for the record, Black Lightsabers are by far the worst thing I've ever seen period, makes me vomit a little in my Mouth, I wasn't too irked by them in TFU, because, it was optional and not canon, so only the weird people would use them in the safety of their own bedrooms, but now...

Black-Lightsabers??, what is this, like 1984
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Darks...8lightsaber%29

So, a Black "Light"Sabre was made because George didn't like the idea of Vibroblades?

... Well, I guess my first question would be: Why in the hell would you make it black? That makes even less sense than the Lightsabre itself. How does Plasma burn onyx black with white emanation?

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Old 02-05-2010, 09:53 AM   #16
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So, a Black "Light"Sabre was made because George didn't like the idea of Vibroblades?
You got a problem with that, white girl?

*insert funk theme*


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Old 02-05-2010, 10:10 AM   #17
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The harsh truth about all this is people need to remember that Star Wars was originally George Lucas' vision and that means he has a right to do whatever he wants with it.
...thereby stripping anyone who doesn't like his work of the right to say what they don't like about it.

Yeah, that makes sense.


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Old 02-05-2010, 10:22 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by True_Avery View Post
I'm going to explain this one more time to all of the young kids here who love the Mandos, especially the Kotor Mandos:

They were Nazis by another name. They almost always have been.
TA, I agreed with pretty much everything you wrote apart from the comparison with Nazi's I think the comparison would be far better with Imperial Japan between 1928-1945. They had a strange skewed sense of honour, and you weren't allowed to surrender, and those who did surrender were treated appallingly (including civilians). The Japanese thought the attack on Pearl Harbour was genius, much like I'm sure the Mandalorians did; indeed it took something similar to Hiroshima (Malachor V) to make the Mandalorians see sense and finally surrender.

So for all the Mandalorian kids out there you are usually American, you are basically venerating a society that would attack America and fight in the same way Imperial Japan did.

Now for the proof;

Firstly what does Honour mean? The first definition in most dictionaries is;

Quote:
personal integrity; allegiance to moral principles
Mandalorians don't do the above, observe...

Quotes from Mandalorians themselves and other KotOR charachters;

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canderous
"I've killed many people. I can't say I'm proud of it, but I have. Criminals, competitors, businessmen, police… women, children…"
There is no justification for the killing of children, furthermore, perhaps Carth says the most interesting thing on the whole subject to Canderous;

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth
"I'm not a warrior, I'm a soldier. There's a difference. Warriors attack and conquer, they prey on the weak. Soldiers defend and protect the innocent—usually from warriors."
Mandalorians are warriors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Juhani
I have never trusted Mandalorians. They drove my parents from Cathar, aided the Sith and attacked the Republic. Their warped notions of 'honor' may provoke them to do even more heinous acts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Juhani
The Mandalorians came and overran my world, they slaughtered my race… I cannot forget what they have done.
More evidence of the callousness of Mandalorians, they expect a farmer (Jon) to be able to protect his daughter when out numbered many times, and having little to no weaponry to fight with;

Quote:
Originally Posted by Conversation
Canderous: "He should have been protecting her better if he wanted to keep her."
Juhani: "Don't be so heartless, Mandalorian."
The Mandalorians, slaughtered innocents, and took on child slaves;

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mira
Exile: You're a Mandalorian?

Mira: As much as any slave becomes a Mandalorian. They took prisoners on every world they conqured to bolster their ranks- and they took a lot of worlds.
The tragedy of war...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kreia
The Mandalorian Wars were a series of massacres
There is no honour in provoking war... Which is what the Mandalorians did

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kreia
Do you wish to feel the teachings born of the Mandalorian Wars? Of all wars, of all tragedies that scream across the galaxy?
They caused the death of Millions, that is frankly evil, and the hero worship of them, I think is sick!

There will be some silly tom foolery from the Mado crew, about how great their culture is, however again from Canderous mouth;

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canderous
"Times have changed now. The Mandalore clans have been scattered across the Outer Rim, the Republic is in decline and the Sith Empire raises to take it's place. The clans as they were aren't a threat, but the galaxy still fears us. Ha! People think we war out of spite, or bloodlust. They don't understand, and fear that. We only wanted the challenge of the battle, and glory from it - win or lose. And we lost. But now I have no real challenges. Crushing Davik's enemies and the pathetic gangs in the Lower City of Taris could not be considered the most glorious of tasks. When I think of the battles I've fought… the thousands I've killed… the worlds I've burned… I weep for my past. We'll never speak of this again. We've got work to do, so let's get to it"
Lets break that down;

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canderous
People think we war out of spite, or bloodlust. They don't understand, and fear that. We only wanted the challenge of the battle, and glory from it - win or lose.
I'm pretty sure, that if you murdered a guy on the street, because you wanted the challenge of fighting him, it is a) still wrong, b) still evil and c) would still be convicted and sent to prison for murder.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canderous
When I think of the battles I've fought… the thousands I've killed
He admits to being a mass murderer....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canderous
the worlds I've burned
He admits to Genocide.

Some wonderful sense of "honour" that is.



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Old 02-05-2010, 10:35 AM   #19
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Kreia is a known lair and Juhani is clearly bias against the Mandalorians.


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Old 02-05-2010, 11:03 AM   #20
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In my mind, the "degrading of the mandalorian name" has been acomplished quite effectively without the use of canon.


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Old 02-05-2010, 11:17 AM   #21
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*insert funk theme*
Funk


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Old 02-05-2010, 12:42 PM   #22
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@J7--I agree that the Imp Japan reference is more apt than Nazi Germany. The only comparison in my mind between the Germans and Mandalorians would be w/regard to the overall quality and ferocity of their warriors. The Germans had a better sense of sartorial style than the allies (ie cooler looking uniforms and even weaons in some cases) and were very tough soldiers/warriors. Regrettably, the regimes they fought for were unworthy. But it seems like every other word of a Mandalorian was "For Mandalore!", which seems to have more in common with Japan's obsession w/invoking the Emperor.


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Old 02-05-2010, 01:34 PM   #23
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Why are people assuming that Jango isn't a Mandalorian now? When I heard the pacifist say that Jango wasn't a Mandalorian, I assumed that the pacifists didn't consider the Mandos following the old ways to be true Mandalorians, and therefore they didn't consider Jango Fett a Mandalorian.

Also...why are people mad about the black lightsaber (sorry, darksaber)? If you accept that a beam of colored energy can stop after a few feet and cut through almost anything in the galaxy, why can't you accept that the beam can be colored black?


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Old 02-05-2010, 01:41 PM   #24
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So wait, are we talking about Old Republic era Mandos or the Mandalorians aorund during the Clone Wars and such?

The Old Republic Mandalorians had a twisted and skewed sense of honor, and as such, were easily manipulated by the Sith into going at war with the galaxy (all it took was a suggestion). They were a truly monstrous lot who treated only fellow mando'ade with respect.

Later on the Mandos got in a fight with the Jedi and the Republic threw a hissy fit and bombed Manda'yaim. This led to the creation of the New Mandalorians. Most Mandalorians gave up their previous lives and became a bunch of pansies who refused to defend themselves when terrorized by the Death Watch. The New Mandalorians are considered non-Mandalorian as they do not follow Resol'nare.

The remaining Mandalorians either went their separate ways, or became True Mandalorians. The True Mandalorians, led by then Mand'alor Jaster Mereel, conformed to a new Supercommando Codex, which abolished the old marauding ways and conformed the Mandalorians to a new code of honor. Most Mandalorians would follow this codex in later years.

Some that grew tired of Jaster's rule and opposed his codex split off and formed the Death Watch (led by Tor Vizsla), and returned to the old ways (as in Mandalorian Wars ways). The Death Watch essentially wanted to start the Mandalorian Wars over again, so they eliminated Jaster and his followers.
When Jango killed Tor Vizsla the Death Watch was scattered, only to be reformed later on by Pre Vizsla.

Most Mandalorian fans (including myself) are fans of the True Mandalorians and the Mandos who follow their honor code (Kal Skirata, Walon Vau, Bardan Jusik, etc...). The ones devoted to protecting their families, following Resol'nare, and hating the Death Watch.

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Old 02-05-2010, 02:31 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Endorenna View Post
Also...why are people mad about the black lightsaber? If you accept that a beam of colored energy can stop after a few feet and cut through almost anything in the galaxy, why can't you accept that the beam can be colored black?
It's a paradox? Dark is the absence of light, so you can't have a dark beam of light, and a beam of a lack of light doesn't sound to be overly powerful.

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Old 02-05-2010, 02:40 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Johnathon-Mk II
Mandalorians are supposed to be honorable warriors who follow a code
Before Karen Traviss's rewrite, they were little more than thugs who believed in might makes right.

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Originally Posted by Astor
this cult developed by Traviss and others annoys me because it's painting what are the Star Wars Universe's answer to the Klingon Empire as 'nice people' when that couldn't be farther from the truth.
Indeed, if anything that was the major retcon.

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Originally Posted by JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan
I love mandalorian armor design. but thats about it. I don't love/hate them, but i lean toward the hate side a little bit - i dislike them.
I loved them back when KOTOR and TSL came out. Great alternate villians that were very different from the standard Sith. I loved that they were nomadic thugs that tried to somewhat sugarcoat their true motives. Canderous is a great character because of it.

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Originally Posted by TKA-001
...thereby stripping anyone who doesn't like his work of the right to say what they don't like about it.

Yeah, that makes sense.
It doesn't because that isn't what he said. The point is that saying "hey dummies, mandalorians are code-loving honourable dudes" when the universes creator says "no they aren't" is somehwhat silly, since he is in the exact position to dictate that. Whether you like or dislike that is completely up to you and valid for you to say so (and for others to disagree).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Endorenna
If you accept that a beam of colored energy can stop after a few feet and cut through almost anything in the galaxy, why can't you accept that the beam can be colored black?
Because it is stupid.




http://tv.ign.com/articles/106/1063990p1.html

Filoni: The Darksaber. That was a big deal. And again that was an idea that came straight from George. Originally what Pre Vizsla was carrying was something in the EU called a vibroblade; it's kind of an electric sword. George let me get away with it in the early phases of design and in the early shooting, but when the color came back and he was watching the lightsaber we want to have combating this vibroblade, he said there's no way that can happen; there's no way that a non-lightsaber could block a lightsaber.

What? (around 2:57)

http://www.starwars.com/databank/tec...aff/index.html

From the Movies
A powered quarterstaff wielded by General Grievous and his bodyguard droids, the electrostaff is an impenetrable pole-arm charged with lethal energy. They are especially effective against clone troopers, sending a deadly jolt through their protective armor. These two-handed weapons are resistant to lightsaber attacks.

Behind the Scenes
The staffs were devised by George Lucas as a ways of presenting a threat to the until-now unstoppable Jedi with lightsaber. The dancing energetic charge emitted from the staff was to suggest a built-in shield mechanism that keeps a lightsaber blade from slicing through. When the animation of the energy changed to instead flow from the tips and not across the entire pole, it was decided instead that the pole was made of specialized materials. Phrik actually dates back to theStar Wars: Dark Forces videogame as a substance that was resistant to lightsabers.

I call bull**** on Filoni.

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Old 02-05-2010, 03:32 PM   #27
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Because it is stupid.

http://tv.ign.com/articles/106/1063990p1.html

Filoni: The Darksaber. That was a big deal. And again that was an idea that came straight from George. Originally what Pre Vizsla was carrying was something in the EU called a vibroblade; it's kind of an electric sword. George let me get away with it in the early phases of design and in the early shooting, but when the color came back and he was watching the lightsaber we want to have combating this vibroblade, he said there's no way that can happen; there's no way that a non-lightsaber could block a lightsaber.

What? (around 2:57)

http://www.starwars.com/databank/tec...aff/index.html

From the Movies
A powered quarterstaff wielded by General Grievous and his bodyguard droids, the electrostaff is an impenetrable pole-arm charged with lethal energy. They are especially effective against clone troopers, sending a deadly jolt through their protective armor. These two-handed weapons are resistant to lightsaber attacks.

Behind the Scenes
The staffs were devised by George Lucas as a ways of presenting a threat to the until-now unstoppable Jedi with lightsaber. The dancing energetic charge emitted from the staff was to suggest a built-in shield mechanism that keeps a lightsaber blade from slicing through. When the animation of the energy changed to instead flow from the tips and not across the entire pole, it was decided instead that the pole was made of specialized materials. Phrik actually dates back to theStar Wars: Dark Forces videogame as a substance that was resistant to lightsabers.

I call bull**** on Filoni.
(shrug) Whatever. After I read Children of the Jedi, I ceased to care about what made sense, 'cuz if I had, I would never have read past that horrendous book.

I agree that the whole thing about "only a lightsaber can block a lightsaber" is rather dumb, though.


Chapter 12 of A Soul Adrift is out.

Short stories:
T'katlu: On the planet Felucia, a young apprentice of the Dark Side thinks back to the beginning of her training as she lies in wait for her prey...

All the Time: After four years in the Unknown Regions, the Exile returns to the known galaxy to visit an old enemy.

Broken: A master of the Dark Side finds himself about to lose the one thing he cares about--and he will do anything to stop her from endangering herself.
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Old 02-05-2010, 04:21 PM   #28
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Let's just face it:

When something EPIC which is PG13 (Revenge of the Sith) goes Teletubbie you lose something.

I feel this childish crap goes against everything that what made Star Wars great. The original and prequel movies.

Boba Fett was a badass bounty hunter in the movie. Not a peace-loving hippie.
Sorry, but I feel Star Wars is going bad...very bad.

I hope this 'real action' tv series will do something good

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Old 02-05-2010, 04:33 PM   #29
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I hope this 'real action' tv series will do something good
TBH I dread all Star Wars that has GL's involvment since 05, TCW is BAAADDD, the TV show will probably be far worse, TCW has jaded my love for Star Wars Greatly


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Old 02-05-2010, 04:44 PM   #30
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Before Karen Traviss's rewrite, they were little more than thugs who believed in might makes right.
They actually still are, it's just that Traviss made some very ham-fisted attempts to justify all of their ****.

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Boba Fett was a badass bounty hunter in the movie. Not a peace-loving hippie.
Boba Fett didn't do anything badass in the movies except look like it, before getting beaten by a blind man with a stick and a hole in the ground.


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Old 02-05-2010, 04:51 PM   #31
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TCW has jaded my love for Star Wars Greatly
But is that for canon reasons only, or something else? Why does having something like CW that is tailored for the younger set make you love that parts that are more targeted at you (or a wider audience) less? It doesn't change what they are. I never really understood that mentality.

For me, I don't love the films less because Yoda Stories or Bombad Racing is in existence. I get some enjoyment from CW, but it is what it is, and I'm not really the target audience. I get that, and I don't hate it for that. "Childish" Star Wars products and series have been around since the 80's. My generation got the Ewok adventures. TCW is by no means a new trend. I still have the KOTOR and Legacy comics and other novels for more adult oriented fair, or the TFU story-wise. It is just that TCW is more in the public eye right now. And kids love it.

I know I'll get blasted for it, but I think many people are overreacting when they say the sky is falling because of the TCW.

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Old 02-05-2010, 04:52 PM   #32
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So let's boil this down to simple fact:
The sudden dis-belief of Vibroblade blocking a lightsaber and the Darksaber itself:
Are you really surprised, people? Did you really think they wouldn't do this sooner or later? Especially on a kids show meant for teenagers, and teenagers love black, so why not try to be cool, right?
Don't try to dispute that, neither, because it's true. Why would we claim that about them if it wasn't?


George is a ****ing idiot who doesn't listen to reason, and it's probable that they didn't even question him or continue the argument after he said that it was impossible for there to be something that blocked a Lightsaber, they need to drag him away from Lucasfilms/arts and start working together without him.
I mean, it's not like the people other than George can't be blamed, like Plinkett AKA RedLetterMedia said in his review, while it is easy to blame George for doing everything wrong, the people who didn't challenge him on his stupid ideas also carry some of the fault.

I might as well just say the ugly truth: Star Wars is not for adults anymore. Starting with the Phantom Menace, Star Wars started to turn around and start to aim for the teenage group. If you want a good story that's as good as the OT, don't count on George and his band of merry idiots to deliver, but hey, if you want blind action, they can sure deliver that!

The Mandalorians became pacifists, big deal. If anything, that's a positive step.
I mean, is forsaking violence really stupid?
If the entire world did it'd be so much better, and as it's already been stated, it's not impossible for a race of warriors to become peaceful people, such as the Mongolians.
So what if Jango's not a Mando, none of them were. They were pretty much an army rather than a species even in the KotOR era, a group of insane people you joined up with.

Basically, this is being blown out of proportion, George needs to get away from Star Wars for the rest of his days, the Mandos are long dead anyway, and I'm hungry for Pizza Rolls.

If you ask me, I don't really care about the Mandalorians, and I'd actually enjoy a mod that replaced Canderous with some other character that's got a voice, and hey, if you can't get over the Mando's improving themselves, there is always the Klingons or the Krogans.


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Old 02-05-2010, 05:00 PM   #33
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snips
yea I should of put "TCW has jaded my Love for Star Wars As an ongoing Franchise"... as in I see nothing but retcons and Cartoon Network in the Future, I obviously still Love the EU, OT and PT, but, some of my Favorite stuff has been canceled or retconed to make way for something I dislike, that pisses me off, hence my opinion, Canon is a slippery slope at the best of Times, and Mandos are as good as the Author makes them. Just my Humble Opinion.


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Old 02-05-2010, 05:22 PM   #34
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this is getting into a heated discussion. Mandos in K2 actually seemed Honourable, but in K1, yes you guys are right, they were two-cred thugs. If a reform to the Mandalorian Way be made, let it make more sense than just giving all combat up. Sure, some of the Code was ridiculous, but a reform making the Mandalorians seem more sensible, smarter, and have common sense. The Wookies are warriors, and they seem to follow a certain way, but not fighting for the sake of fighting. If Mandos fought, watched, or learned from directly by Wookies, they would learn a lot. Sure they could still be warriors, but the raiding, kidnapping, stealing and all that **** could be cut out, make the Mandos seem more of a civilization more than a tribe, but still they should have their combat skills, and not throw all that away. What I mean by that is they should use their skills in a more sensible way than in pirating. More like a small empire, coalition, whatever.

Here's the thing though. In EAW FOC (not really canon in my opinion, but LA says so) the Mandos were still the same. Raiders, kidnappers, thugs, etc. So somethin must have happened for them to return to their Old Ways.
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Old 02-05-2010, 05:30 PM   #35
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TA, I agreed with pretty much everything you wrote apart from the comparison with Nazi's I think the comparison would be far better with Imperial Japan between 1928-1945. They had a strange skewed sense of honour, and you weren't allowed to surrender, and those who did surrender were treated appallingly (including civilians). The Japanese thought the attack on Pearl Harbour was genius, much like I'm sure the Mandalorians did; indeed it took something similar to Hiroshima (Malachor V) to make the Mandalorians see sense and finally surrender.

So for all the Mandalorian kids out there you are usually American, you are basically venerating a society that would attack America and fight in the same way Imperial Japan did.
Ah, yeah, that comparison makes a lot more sense. Now I feel silly for not realizing that sooner.

Quote:
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So wait, are we talking about Old Republic era Mandos or the Mandalorians aorund during the Clone Wars and such?
To be honest, aside from this pacifist group they've been essentially the same throughout Star Wars.

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The Old Republic Mandalorians had a twisted and skewed sense of honor, and as such, were easily manipulated by the Sith into going at war with the galaxy (all it took was a suggestion). They were a truly monstrous lot who treated only fellow mando'ade with respect.
Like pretty much all Mandalorians.

I agree there are individuals within the group that garner some respect, but as a whole their race is pretty atrocious.

Quote:
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Later on the Mandos got in a fight with the Jedi and the Republic threw a hissy fit and bombed Manda'yaim. This led to the creation of the New Mandalorians. Most Mandalorians gave up their previous lives and became a bunch of pansies who refused to defend themselves when terrorized by the Death Watch. The New Mandalorians are considered non-Mandalorian as they do not follow Resol'nare.
So, not fighting makes you a pansie?

Also, I don't consider it a hissy fit to kick down a race that has attempted to kill all life in the Republic more than a few times.

Again, you're not making a good argument for the Mandalorians here. "Honorable" warriors tend to believe that violence is a last resort, even if you're being troubled. This is one of the first lessons almost every martial art teacher will ever try to instill in you.

These "pansies" know how to fight, but do not do so because they know the bloodshed their race is capable of. That makes them more "honorable" than any Mandalorian in the Kotor age, and more honorable than the Bloodwatch and the rest of them.

Making a group of them Warrior-Monks is a great move.

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The remaining Mandalorians either went their separate ways, or became True Mandalorians. The True Mandalorians, led by then Mand'alor Jaster Mereel, conformed to a new Supercommando Codex, which abolished the old marauding ways and conformed the Mandalorians to a new code of honor. Most Mandalorians would follow this codex in later years.
Except the old Marauding ways were not apart of their previous code. It was just something that they did for fun.

Which, again, doesn't make sense because after Clone Wars the remaining Mandos still fought the Republic and still killed and raided. These "true" Mandalorians are as much the savage mercs as they were in the Kotor era. They just lack the numbers and resources.

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Some that grew tired of Jaster's rule and opposed his codex split off and formed the Death Watch (led by Tor Vizsla), and returned to the old ways (as in Mandalorian Wars ways). The Death Watch essentially wanted to start the Mandalorian Wars over again, so they eliminated Jaster and his followers.
When Jango killed Tor Vizsla the Death Watch was scattered, only to be reformed later on by Pre Vizsla.
Proving my point beautifully.

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Most Mandalorian fans (including myself) are fans of the True Mandalorians and the Mandos who follow their honor code (Kal Skirata, Walon Vau, Bardan Jusik, etc...). The ones devoted to protecting their families, following Resol'nare, and hating the Death Watch.
Which doesn't make sense because you previously stated people who wouldn't fight are pansies. The pacifist group is standing for their honor.

Fact is, Mando culture has almost always valued family, tried to follow their code, and so on. They are an honorable group within their own ranks.

It is what they do to everyone else, however, that makes them bastards.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnathon-Mk II
this is getting into a heated discussion. Mandos in K2 actually seemed Honourable, but in K1, yes you guys are right, they were two-cred thugs. If a reform to the Mandalorian Way be made, let it make more sense than just giving all combat up. Sure, some of the Code was ridiculous, but a reform making the Mandalorians seem more sensible, smarter, and have common sense. The Wookies are warriors, and they seem to follow a certain way, but not fighting for the sake of fighting. If Mandos fought, watched, or learned from directly by Wookies, they would learn a lot. Sure they could still be warriors, but the raiding, kidnapping, stealing and all that **** could be cut out, make the Mandos seem more of a civilization more than a tribe, but still they should have their combat skills, and not throw all that away. What I mean by that is they should use their skills in a more sensible way than in pirating. More like a small empire, coalition, whatever.
Not to pick at hairs, but isn't that -exactly- what the pacifist group is trying to do?
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Old 02-05-2010, 05:36 PM   #36
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The Wookies are warriors, and they seem to follow a certain way, but not fighting for the sake of fighting.
Not all Wookiees are necessarily warriors. They're physically immense, but that's because they evolved to life on their homeworld, and yes, their culture places emphasis on fighting and strength, but that's more out to do with life on Kashyyyk being a constant struggle for survival.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnathon-Mk II
make the Mandos seem more of a civilization more than a tribe,
As far as I can see, though, the only thing that keeps Mandalorians together is their vaunted code, or resol'nare or whatever it's called.






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Old 02-05-2010, 07:53 PM   #37
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this is getting into a heated discussion. Mandos in K2 actually seemed Honourable, but in K1, yes you guys are right, they were two-cred thugs.
In K2 they weren't more honourable than in K1, they just decided that they needed to take a break and rebuild so they could kill more. And by "rebuild" I mean "invade another planet's space and put bunkers on their space lawn".


Let's kill ourselves.
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Old 02-05-2010, 07:57 PM   #38
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Not to pick at hairs, but isn't that -exactly- what the pacifist group is trying to do?
No, because that type of pacifist is against all type of war, what I ment is they could still be a warrior race, but have more common sense. The Mandos in CW became simple citizens

Quote:
In K2 they weren't more honourable than in K1, they just decided that they needed to take a break and rebuild so they could kill more. And by "rebuild" I mean "invade another planet's space and put bunkers on their space lawn".
Not exactly, Mandos envisioned by Obsidian had more common sense then that. In K1 all Mandos apparently attacked on sight, but in K2 they didn't. When the Exile met the mandos, they held their fire. In K1, they wouldn't have done that.
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Old 02-05-2010, 08:01 PM   #39
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It's a paradox? Dark is the absence of light, so you can't have a dark beam of light, and a beam of a lack of light doesn't sound to be overly powerful.
Perhaps it's black light? Or, to put it another way, cheap sci-fi writing?



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Old 02-05-2010, 08:03 PM   #40
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Mandalorians, and the Fetts in general have been so drenched in fanspunk, I'm sick of hearing of them. The Taung were cool though, when they existed

The TCW episode wasn't that bad, and skirts reasonably within EU lore.

Positive Mental Health Tip #72:
If watching The Clone Wars makes you upset, and leads you to futilely dash your fanrage all over a Star Wars related forum, watch something else, something like this will take your mind off it surely...

*watches link vid, falls off chair in glee*

mtfbwya


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