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Old 01-22-2011, 09:18 PM   #121
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Actually the mandos were made up of multi species already at the time of TOR before Revan and Malek were led to the dark side by the sith emporer.
TOR happened AFTER kotor...




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Old 01-22-2011, 09:26 PM   #122
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My mistake, I'm more familiar with the novels than the games.
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Old 01-23-2011, 05:52 AM   #123
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I don't understand the logic behind claiming that The Clone Wars has strong characters and yet wanting the mandalorians to remain as a living stereotype of thugs and murderers. I really don't understand why everyone is so obsessed with the jedi always looking like the "heroes" and relegating the mandalorians to a confused and "evil" status.

Karen Traviss wrote her stories from the perspectives of her characters. She is not a "hack" writer if she is biased. She took on what everyone but the jedi saw the jedi as: the negative stereotypes of clueless, but well-meaning protectors. Karen Traviss wasn't the first person to see the jedi from a negative light. Just look at the "Republic" series of comics that show the clone wars in detail. The populace on Jabiim were so moved by their distaste for jedi that they fought them piecemeal.

The whole reason that the move by lucasfilm to rewrite canon from the EU is such a literal slap in the face to the community is that the parts being rewritten are read from an adult perspective that sees characters from all sides. It doesn't label anyone as "good" or "evil" by the army they fight for. It shows the motivation for their joining either side; and unfortunately this favor of making everything more one dimensionally puts the entire license of Star Wars in jeopardy to the older audiences. I for one can't stand watching well developed characters and societies "cleansed" so that everyone can understand them. I don't care if George Lucas himself decided to retcon everything that isn't compatible to other series. He needs to understand that the Expanded Universe was designed to be palpable to a multitude of audiences and if he doesn't support any more than one opinion, the entire Star Wars license is going to completely dissolve.
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Old 01-23-2011, 05:56 AM   #124
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If you read the Republic Commandos series of books you'll find out that the entire culture is based on family. In fact the greates title that any mando can hold is father or mother. I hate to tell you this but the clone wars version of both mandolore and the mandolorians is waaaay off but so is yours.
Those books were written by a person who was entirely ignorant of both Star Wars and it's universe, a fact they readily admit. It's best to take any of Karen Traviss' interpretations of anything Star Wars related with a truck load of salt.

Not to mention the fact those books are filled with an awful attempt at creating a 'language'.

Yeah, folks, I'm ragging on Traviss and the Mandos again. Sue me!






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Old 01-23-2011, 05:56 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by Canderis View Post
TOR happened AFTER kotor...
The Mandalorians were multi-species in the KOTOR comics and in the Exar Kun story arc. Those were well before the first KOTOR game.

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Those books were written by a person who was entirely ignorant of both Star Wars and it's universe, a fact they readily admit. It's best to take any of Karen Traviss' interpretations of anything Star Wars related with a truck load of salt.

Not to mention the fact those books are filled with an awful attempt at creating a 'language'.

Yeah, folks, I'm ragging on Traviss and the Mandos again. Sue me!
Why do you not want Karen Traviss's Mandos to be canon? Is it because of what she says or how she says it?

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Old 01-23-2011, 06:07 AM   #126
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The Mandalorians were multi-species in the KOTOR comics and in the Exar Kun story arc. Those were well before the first KOTOR game.
You do realize he was just correcting the guy, he never said they weren't....
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Old 01-23-2011, 06:08 AM   #127
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Why do you not want Karen Traviss's Mandos to be canon? Is it because of what she says or how she says it?
My reasons are long and varied and are not just related to a dislike of the Mandalorians, but a dislike of her and her attitude towards Star Wars and the fans - but to save myself writing it all out again, it's all here.






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Old 01-23-2011, 06:12 AM   #128
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Heh! fair enough. Ironically TOR is after Revan and Malak went to the dark side. It's even after Revan killed Malak. So what was said seemed like a misnomer to me.

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My reasons are long and varied and are not just related to a dislike of the Mandalorians, but a dislike of her and her attitude towards Star Wars and the fans - but to save myself writing it all out again, it's all here.
I understand you dislike how she treats Star Wars, but she didn't do it a disservice by misrepresenting the Jedi. The Jedi are a character in and of themselves and she just took a written series in a completely different direction. Not unlike how Timmothy Zahn took the perspective of deserting imperial troopers in one of his more recent books. Karen Traviss has a unique obsession with mandalorians to the degree that she showed all of the different sides of them, their reason for deserting the republic and sith and jedi, and even invented an entire language to separate them from other Star Wars characters. I also may mention that she beefed up their warrior mentality by studying the behavior of warror tribes and adopting them in. I know the Jedi deserters/love interests were kinda cheesy, but that's what stories are made of. I appreciate that she was so obsessed with a completely unknown society to the degree that she made up an intricate and layered identity for them. No one person should have a say on what mandalorians are unless they're willing to contribute. I don't get why just because her perspective is skewed to her creations that you insist that it shouldn't happen. She respected the Star Wars lore, just not the Jedi or the Kaminoans. Mandalorians are designed to exist on the fringe of society. So I don't see why they can't have a society of their own.

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Old 01-23-2011, 09:22 PM   #129
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Old 01-24-2011, 09:39 AM   #130
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I don't really want to keep this alive, so this will be my last post on this subject, so I can clarify a few things.

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Originally Posted by Kr1ffing_Br1lliant View Post
Karen Traviss has a unique obsession with mandalorians to the degree that she showed all of the different sides of them, their reason for deserting the republic and sith and jedi, and even invented an entire language to separate them from other Star Wars characters...

...I appreciate that she was so obsessed with a completely unknown society to the degree that she made up an intricate and layered identity for them.
If it were only that I wouldn't have a problem, but when they are consistently elevated above all others, it becomes a problem. She became so wrapped up with her view that it was detrimental to them, and the wider stories they were part of. I doubt that the words 'Karen Traviss' and 'Mandalorian' would be as controversial had she toned it down a little, although that is as much her fault as it is the people supervising what she was doing.

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Originally Posted by Kr1ffing_Br1lliant
No one person should have a say on what mandalorians are unless they're willing to contribute. I don't get why just because her perspective is skewed to her creations that you insist that it shouldn't happen.
I have never insisted that it shouldn't happen. And plenty of fans were willing to contribute, only to be insulted in rather harsh terms and then have their views cast aside.

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Originally Posted by Kr1ffing_Br1lliant
She respected the Star Wars lore, just not the Jedi or the Kaminoans.
She didn't respect anything, she did what she wanted, told everyone who disagreed to go to hell and then rage quit when something she didn't like occurred.

But, as I've said, I think that's enough on that subject.






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Old 01-24-2011, 10:08 AM   #131
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If it were only that I wouldn't have a problem, but when they are consistently elevated above all others, it becomes a problem. She became so wrapped up with her view that it was detrimental to them, and the wider stories they were part of. I doubt that the words 'Karen Traviss' and 'Mandalorian' would be as controversial had she toned it down a little, although that is as much her fault as it is the people supervising what she was doing.



I have never insisted that it shouldn't happen. And plenty of fans were willing to contribute, only to be insulted in rather harsh terms and then have their views cast aside.



She didn't respect anything, she did what she wanted, told everyone who disagreed to go to hell and then rage quit when something she didn't like occurred.

But, as I've said, I think that's enough on that subject.
Aha. I was trying to figure out a way to respond to his post without sounding rude. I think you did quite a good job there.

Though I do think it's funny how he said (in a previous post):
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I don't care if George Lucas himself decided to retcon everything that isn't compatible to other series.
Dude... George Lucas is the creator of Star Wars... he is the one who decides what is and what isn't.
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Old 01-24-2011, 10:52 AM   #132
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The whole reason that the move by lucasfilm to rewrite canon from the EU
Rewrite canon?

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is such a literal slap in the face to the community is that the parts being rewritten are read from an adult perspective that sees characters from all sides. It doesn't label anyone as "good" or "evil" by the army they fight for. It shows the motivation for their joining either side; and unfortunately this favor of making everything more one dimensionally puts the entire license of Star Wars in jeopardy to the older audiences.
Say what? Traviss was the one who rewrote the Mandalorians.

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I appreciate that she was so obsessed with a completely unknown society to the degree that she made up an intricate and layered identity for them.
Boba Fett is a Mandalorian, not the other way around. And that's what she made of them.



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Old 01-24-2011, 01:56 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by Kr1ffing_Br1lliant View Post
Karen Traviss wrote her stories from the perspectives of her characters. She is not a "hack" writer if she is biased. She took on what everyone but the jedi saw the jedi as: the negative stereotypes of clueless, but well-meaning protectors. Karen Traviss wasn't the first person to see the jedi from a negative light. Just look at the "Republic" series of comics that show the clone wars in detail. The populace on Jabiim were so moved by their distaste for jedi that they fought them piecemeal.
The problem wasn't that she had characters that viewed the Jedi in a negative light, the problem was that she had characters that should not have viewed them in a negative light doing exactly that. On top of that, she had everyone in absolute awe of the Mandos, even those that shouldn't be in awe to the point where it didn't make any sense. Some of her books were so brutally anti-Jedi/pro-mando that many characters acted nothing like they should.

And she trampled a lot of canon, which seems to get a lot of peoples' dander up these days.

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Old 01-24-2011, 03:56 PM   #134
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Mandalorians=a good name? That's about as big an oxymoron as 'jumbo shrimp' and 'military intelligence.'


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Old 01-24-2011, 04:18 PM   #135
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Mandalorians=a good name? That's about as big an oxymoron as 'jumbo shrimp' and 'military intelligence.'
Indeed.



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Old 01-25-2011, 06:26 AM   #136
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Rewrite canon?
Yes, if George Lucas wants to put such a pathetic spin on the Mandalorian people, then this means that all of the stories of mandalorian bravery and heroics (that aren't limited to the recent) would never have been relevant.
That is of course, unless the "True Mandalorians" show up from the shadows and totally annihilate the pacifist sect.

I still can't figure out how the mandalorians on Kryimoot would be so stupid as to let a rival sect nuke it, and I can't believe a mandalorian sect would be so cowardly as to nuke their enemy instead of fighting them with their skills. Not only this, but according to a synopsis of The Clone Wars timeline with Satine, the mandalorians are so open as to actually negotiate and ask the republic for help! Really?! I can understand the deathwatch being assassins, but why aren't the mandalorians beating them back into whatever pit they crawled out of?! This completely defies all of the canon on mandalorians since Episode II even aired.

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Say what? Traviss was the one who rewrote the Mandalorians.
Traviss did not rewrite the Mandalorians. She embellished on them. Mandalorians just recently started getting a positive spin on their whole culture. She added history and a language to them. I saw no canon on them being rewritten.


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Boba Fett is a Mandalorian, not the other way around. And that's what she made of them.
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Mandalorians=a good name? That's about as big an oxymoron as 'jumbo shrimp' and 'military intelligence.'
Boba Fett was taught by Jango Fett who was taught by the mandalorians of his time, namely Jaster Mereel. Traviss seems to have borrowed the original "honorable warrior brother" mentality that was shared with mandalorians during Jango and Jaster Mereel's time. Jaster Mereel and Jango's pasts were established way before Traviss even started her first book.

Mandalorians also had this mentality and creedo in KOTOR II as well as the KOTOR comic publications. Demogul was even labeled a monster for his brutal experiments by the Mandalorians themselves. Seemed pretty respectable to me.

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The problem wasn't that she had characters that viewed the Jedi in a negative light, the problem was that she had characters that should not have viewed them in a negative light doing exactly that. On top of that, she had everyone in absolute awe of the Mandos, even those that shouldn't be in awe to the point where it didn't make any sense. Some of her books were so brutally anti-Jedi/pro-mando that many characters acted nothing like they should.
She had 2 Jedi characters that acted against the jedi. She only had one jedi leave the order and another illegally fraternize and ultimately try to save a clone to her demise. Both of these characters were relatively young and last I checked, young jedi have been changing sides all the time in other series. The rest of the jedi acted according to their character as generals and the like. The one helping the Black Ops team that helped Skirata and his rebel team was a Police Officer! How could you assume that those would be pro-jedi in the first place?! I may also mention that the rest of the squad that really didn't have a stance on jedi was a treasurer and a waitress. All of these characters acted as they would in a time of war (with the exception of the padawan who didn't really know what was going on)

I reiterate my previous statement made earlier. She doesn't really present the jedi specifically badly. She just portrays the Kaminoans as heartless cruel and brutal. She sees the jedi as a little caught up in it all (More along the lines of Episode III) and confused. The characters in her stories don't hate jedi and even Skirata is coming to terms with his unnatural hatred of them in the most recently published story.

There is no jedi vs. mando going on. It's just mando.



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Dude... George Lucas is the creator of Star Wars... he is the one who decides what is and what isn't.
Well, I'm sorry for respecting something that he owns so much that I don't want him to destroy it.
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Old 01-25-2011, 06:45 AM   #137
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Traviss did not rewrite the Mandalorians. She embellished on them. Mandalorians just recently started getting a positive spin on their whole culture. She added history and a language to them. I saw no canon on them being rewritten.
She "added" history and language... which should not have been done to the extent of which she had. She made them to the point at which they were the "icons" of Star Wars (in her opinion and those of her "Fandalorians"). The true icons of the Star Wars Universe are the Jedi and the Sith. Period, end of the line.


Quote:
Boba Fett was taught by Jango Fett who was taught by the mandalorians of his time, namely Jaster Mereel. Traviss seems to have borrowed the original "honorable warrior brother" mentality that was shared with mandalorians during Jango and Jaster Mereel's time. Jaster Mereel and Jango's pasts were established way before Traviss even started her first book.
Jango Fett was Mandalore... so naturally, Boba Fett knew the true Mandalorian ways... especially considering that Boba inherited the title. Jango's past was established way before Traviss starter her book, so then don't you think that is what SHOULD be canon, not Traviss crap.


Quote:
I reiterate my previous statement made earlier. She doesn't really present the jedi specifically badly. She just portrays the Kaminoans as heartless cruel and brutal. She sees the jedi as a little caught up in it all (More along the lines of Episode III) and confused. The characters in her stories don't hate jedi and even Skirata is coming to terms with his unnatural hatred of them in the most recently published story.

There is no jedi vs. mando going on. It's just mando.
She claimed in an interview that when she was in character, she hated Jedi... and when she was out of character, she hated the people who were Jedi sympathizers.

Regardless of what you said, it is Jedi vs. Mando... in her world, she wants people to love Mandos and hate Jedi.


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Well, I'm sorry for respecting something that he owns so much that I don't want him to destroy it.
You respect something he makes, yet you don't respect his opinion. Whether or not he destroys Star Wars, it's his choice, not Traviss' nor anyone else's.
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Old 01-25-2011, 07:07 AM   #138
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Yes, if George Lucas wants to put such a pathetic spin on the Mandalorian people, then this means that all of the stories of mandalorian bravery and heroics (that aren't limited to the recent) would never have been relevant.
How? And which pathetic spin?

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That is of course, unless the "True Mandalorians" show up from the shadows and totally annihilate the pacifist sect.
They were extinct.

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Not only this, but according to a synopsis of The Clone Wars timeline with Satine, the mandalorians are so open as to actually negotiate and ask the republic for help! Really?!
No. They don't want the Republic help. And that's made clear in the episode.

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I can understand the deathwatch being assassins, but why aren't the mandalorians beating them back into whatever pit they crawled out of?! This completely defies all of the canon on mandalorians since Episode II even aired.
How does it defies canon? And what Mandalorians are you talking about? The pacifists?


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Traviss did not rewrite the Mandalorians. She embellished on them.


She made them a bunch of Boba Fett's.

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I saw no canon on them being rewritten.
Maybe you have to go back and read TESB notes about the Mandalorians.

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Originally Posted by Kr1ffing_Br1lliant View Post
Boba Fett was taught by Jango Fett who was taught by the mandalorians of his time, namely Jaster Mereel. Traviss seems to have borrowed the original "honorable warrior brother" mentality that was shared with mandalorians during Jango and Jaster Mereel's time. Jaster Mereel and Jango's pasts were established way before Traviss even started her first book.
They were supposed to be an organized military society.



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Old 01-25-2011, 07:35 AM   #139
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Just to make sure I don't misquote you
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She "added" history and language... which should not have been done to the extent of which she had. She made them to the point at which they were the "icons" of Star Wars (in her opinion and those of her "Fandalorians"). The true icons of the Star Wars Universe are the Jedi and the Sith. Period, end of the line.

Jango Fett was Mandalore... so naturally, Boba Fett knew the true Mandalorian ways... especially considering that Boba inherited the title. Jango's past was established way before Traviss starter her book, so then don't you think that is what SHOULD be canon, not Traviss crap.


She claimed in an interview that when she was in character, she hated Jedi... and when she was out of character, she hated the people who were Jedi sympathizers.


Regardless of what you said, it is Jedi vs. Mando... in her world, she wants people to love Mandos and hate Jedi.
It amazes me that someone penalizes someone else for being a fan of something. IE "Fandalorians" more importantly, I believe that some of the things she invented were quite well thought out regardless of her preference or the way she presented it. You call her work crap, but the only reason you hate it is because she didn't fairly represent anyone well besides the mandalorians. Some of her stuff was well implemented and the plot went along quite well. In a literary sense she showed the perspective of her characters vividly.

Maybe she just has an absolute lack of tact regarding others. Maybe you hate her work because she hates something you like. (Nay, something that is central to Star Wars according to some source) Ironically if you don't like who her characters represent, then you'll hate all of the details she added to them.

You bring up many good points. However, this thread isn't regarding whether Karen Traviss is wrong and biased. This is about George Lucas completely erasing an entire timeline of a (in my opinion) well established heritage that has been around before this ugly controversy.

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You respect something he makes, yet you don't respect his opinion. Whether or not he destroys Star Wars, it's his choice, not Traviss' nor anyone else's.
It's not about opinion. This is about a literal decision. I don't agree with his decision. I may respect it possibly, however.
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Old 01-25-2011, 07:43 AM   #140
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This is about George Lucas completely erasing an entire timeline of a (in my opinion) well established heritage that has been around before this ugly controversy.
Sadly that hasn't happened yet.



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Old 01-25-2011, 07:44 AM   #141
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Just to make sure I don't misquote you

It amazes me that someone penalizes someone else for being a fan of something. IE "Fandalorians" more importantly, I believe that some of the things she invented were quite well thought out regardless of her preference or the way she presented it. You call her work crap, but the only reason you hate it is because she didn't fairly represent anyone well besides the mandalorians. Some of her stuff was well implemented and the plot went along quite well. In a literary sense she showed the perspective of her characters vividly.
Oh no, no, no, no. I love Mandalorians... it's just the fact that she wrote about them blindly... and it wasn't me that came up with the name... that was Traviss herself.

Quote:
Maybe she just has an absolute lack of tact regarding others. Maybe you hate her work because she hates something you like. (Nay, something that is central to Star Wars according to some source) Ironically if you don't like who her characters represent, then you'll hate all of the details she added to them.
Again, I say that I love the Mandalorians... so that's not it.

Quote:
You bring up many good points. However, this thread isn't regarding whether Karen Traviss is wrong and biased. This is about George Lucas completely erasing an entire timeline of a (in my opinion) well established heritage that has been around before this ugly controversy.
I was simply replying to what you had posted... I didn't go off topic regarding your post.... regarding the thread, maybe.


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It's not about opinion. This is about a literal decision. I don't agree with his decision. I may respect it possibly, however.
Maybe you don't agree with his decision... but again, it's his Universe... he can do what he likes with it.
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Old 01-25-2011, 08:07 AM   #142
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She had 2 Jedi characters that acted against the jedi.
You clearly haven't read the Legacy of the Force series (my apologies if you have) - every book she wrote in that series she had well established Jedi characters effectively worshipping the Jedi.

In one scene Boba Fett teaches Jaina Solo, Sword of the Jedi, how to 'properly' use a lightsaber, as retarded as it seems. In countless others Mandalorians beat the Jedi at things they would have no chance in simply because they're the Mandalorians and covered in three inch thick plot armour.

I've said this too many times in this thread, but that's it. I'm out.






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Old 01-25-2011, 08:24 AM   #143
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Ho boy!

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How? And which pathetic spin?
The one where they are some sort of Monarchy like Naboo.

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They were extinct.
And somehow they repopulated Mandalore and established a democratic society? The sheer amount of time that this all transpired would have to have been roughly two decades (The Dark Jedi Komari Vosa led the jedi to extinguish the mandalorian armies to make them "extinct" and she was barely thirty right before the clone wars started). That and Jango was with the remaining mandalorians during his role as mand'alor before he was captured and they were made "extinct". Even if they established a great monarchy, the galaxy would have taken far more notice than they did in the first two movies (that is they took no notice)

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No. They don't want the Republic help. And that's made clear in the episode.
It seems I said that in error. My apologies.

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How does it defies canon? And what Mandalorians are you talking about? The pacifists?
Yes, the pacifists. The very notion that the Mandalorians as a people would be modeled after Corellia in so many ways. "We want to fight this threat ourselves, but we are too mired by politics to do so"
Are they going to be desolated by the Empire whenever they come in a month or so? I remember that Boba was the last Mandalorian and his people were either unknown or eradicated.



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She made them a bunch of Boba Fett's.
Sure, because Jaster, Mandalor the Ultimate, Canderous Ordo, Jango Fett, that one Old Republic mando (I think he becomes Mandalor after the KOTOR comics), and even the pre-coruscant Taungs all didn't have that same personality?

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They were supposed to be an organized military society.
How is their portrayal not an organized military society? Or did you mean that they shouldn't have an honor code?

-Wait a minute.. TESB The Empire Strikes Back?! That canon about Boba being a journeyman protector was rewritten before Episode II.-

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You clearly haven't read the Legacy of the Force series
Thanks for the input. YEah! I definitely gave up on Legacy after they killed Mara for some Civil War hooha. I can see where there is a bit of distaste for her writing.

I mean, all of the authors totally misconstrued eachother's work and broke the whole thing beyond repair. Hey! you got a point. She really messed up Legacy of The Force. I still don't see that as a reason to omit everything she wrote/established. I mean, a secret base on Kryimoot, right under the empire's nose... more details about Mandalorian customs and an entire made-up language... decent to me.

-She's still no Timothy Zahn though-

Moderator note [01-25-2011 09:17 AM]

Once again, please use the edit button to add to your post instead of double posting. Thanks~ mimartin


Last edited by mimartin; 01-25-2011 at 09:17 AM. Reason: merge double posts
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Old 01-25-2011, 08:45 AM   #144
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The one where they are some sort of Monarchy like Naboo.
This pacifist faction took over after many clan wars. How is it against canon? It's actually a very understandable move.

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And somehow they repopulated Mandalore and established a democratic society?
Somehow? No, these New Mandalorians establish a pacifist society because the people chose to. The amount of wars brought nothing but destruction to their people. That's why it's understandable.

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The sheer amount of time that this all transpired would have to have been roughly two decades (The Dark Jedi Komari Vosa led the jedi to extinguish the mandalorian armies to make them "extinct" and she was barely thirty right before the clone wars started). That and Jango was with the remaining mandalorians during his role as mand'alor before he was captured and they were made "extinct". Even if they established a great monarchy, the galaxy would have taken far more notice than they did in the first two movies (that is they took no notice)
What do the movies have to do with this?

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Yes, the pacifists.
Precisely because they are pacifists.

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Sure, because Jaster, Mandalor the Ultimate, Canderous Ordo, Jango Fett, that one Old Republic mando (I think he becomes Mandalor after the KOTOR comics), and even the pre-coruscant Taungs all didn't have that same personality?

How is their portrayal not an organized military society? Or did you mean that they shouldn't have an honor code?
What I mean is that the EU made them a bunch of vagabonds, rogues, each with his own personalized armor, etc... That's what Boba Fett is, not what Mandalorians were meant to be.



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Old 01-25-2011, 09:02 AM   #145
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This pacifist faction took over after many clan wars. How is it against canon? It's actually a very understandable move.
Not in the time alotted


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Somehow? No, these New Mandalorians establish a pacifist society because the people chose to. The amount of wars brought nothing but destruction to their people. That's why it's understandable.
Yet the Mandalorians are extinct. There weren't enough left to establish a monarchy.


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What do the movies have to do with this?
What I am referencing is Star Wars Bounty Hunter and various comic books that are backstory for both Jango Fett and the Antagonist, Komari Vosa to establish the canon they represent.


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Precisely because they are pacifists.
Eh? No because they don't match established canon that I keep referencing.

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What I mean is that the EU made them a bunch of vagabonds, rogues, each with his own personalized armor, etc... That's what Boba Fett is, not what Mandalorians were meant to be.
The EU is what has been busy establishing every other character from the movies. So you disagree with what the EU has been churning out for about ten years?!
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Old 01-25-2011, 09:05 AM   #146
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Not in the time alotted
Why not?


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Yet the Mandalorians are extinct. There weren't enough left to establish a monarchy.
The Mandalorian SPECIES is extinct. Not the Mandalorian ways of life.
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Old 01-27-2011, 03:50 PM   #147
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You clearly haven't read the Legacy of the Force series (my apologies if you have) - every book she wrote in that series she had well established Jedi characters effectively worshipping the Jedi.
Beat me to it.

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In one scene Boba Fett teaches Jaina Solo, Sword of the Jedi, how to 'properly' use a lightsaber, as retarded as it seems. In countless others Mandalorians beat the Jedi at things they would have no chance in simply because they're the Mandalorians and covered in three inch thick plot armour.
Yes, just the whole notion of a Jedi, having to fight a Sith Lord, deciding to go ask Boba Fett how to do it despite having an uncle who, you know, has fought and defeated Sith Lords. And then having said Jedi go on at length about how awesome Mandos are and how terrible Jedi are. It was that sort of illogic that just made the whole story collapse in on itself.

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