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Old 03-12-2010, 02:53 AM   #1
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School cancels prom because of lesbian couple

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35814348/?gt1=43001
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Society...-date-to-court

So, essentially, the school knew this girl wanted to wear a tux and wanted to go with her girlfriend. The school told her no, and officials then circulated a flier saying students could not bring same-sex dates. When she pressed, they told her they she would be asked, and possibly forced to leave school grounds if she arrived with her girlfriend.

When McMillen and a lawyer from the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) gave the school district a deadline to rescind the ruling, the school board on Wednesday voted to cancel the prom rather than abide by McMillen’s wish, which passed and canceled the entire senior prom event.

She and the ACLU filed a lawsuit in US district court, charging that school officials violated McMillen's free speech rights when they told her they would enforce the district's policy requiring prom dates to be of the opposite sex.

----------
And, in sort of related news, a Catholic School is refusing to re-enroll a toddler because his parents are lesbians. Not because of anything wrong with him, but because they don't agree with the parents and don't want to "teach him conflicting views", essentially meaning that they teach, in their curriculum to toddlers and children, that homosexuals are sinners.
http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/03/08/col...ex.html?hpt=T2

So yeah, fun times. I'm going to stay out of this thread because I don't trust this to end in anything short of a car wreck. I'm looking at you Kavars.

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Old 03-12-2010, 03:37 AM   #2
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And, in sort of related news, a Catholic School is refusing to re-enroll a toddler because his parents are lesbians. Not because of anything wrong with him, but because they don't agree with the parents and don't want to "teach him conflicting views", essentially meaning that they teach, in their curriculum to toddlers and children, that homosexuals are sinners.
http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/03/08/col...ex.html?hpt=T2
To be honest, I don't really see what's wrong with this. It's not that the Catholic School is discriminating against homosexuals, but their belief prevents them from properly accepting them.



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Old 03-12-2010, 04:06 AM   #3
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Considering that Catholic schools are generally private, I was under the impression they had leeway to chose who they may or may not enroll. In any case, I fail to see why a lesbian couple would want to enroll their child in a school that clearly thinks his parents are sinners.

As for the school prom thing, it's moronic and petty.


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Old 03-12-2010, 07:27 AM   #4
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It's prom. It should be prohibited in the first place to keep intelligence in-check. Actually, scratch that; prom is an excellent benefactor of natural selection and inhibits exponential population growth.
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Old 03-12-2010, 08:35 AM   #5
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I'd say the Catholic school was well w/in its rights and also question why anyone would want to send their kids through a system that was fundamentally in disagreement with their chosen lifestyle.


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Old 03-12-2010, 10:16 AM   #6
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Catholic School: meh, it's a private school, I'll let that slide.

Prom: wtf? That's dumb and I"m imagining that there's going to be some serious fallout from this.


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Old 03-12-2010, 10:21 AM   #7
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I'd say the Catholic school was well w/in its rights and also question why anyone would want to send their kids through a system that was fundamentally in disagreement with their chosen lifestyle.
That's it. Accepting them would beb blatantly hypocrital. It's plainly segregating what's taught there from reality.


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Old 03-12-2010, 11:38 AM   #8
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Like everyone else has said, I have no problem with the Catholic school decision. It's private and is a faith-based institution. I'd question the parents choosing to send their child there more than the school's decision.

The other example, however, will probably have significant impacts down the road. I think the school made a stupid decision, no matter what anyone's beliefs are about homosexuality. #1 - let's say you believe in equal rights for homosexuals in everything, like going to the prom, gay marriage, etc., well then of course this school's decision would trouble you. #2 - let's say you're on the other side and don't believe that homosexual relationships should be afforded the same rights that straight couples receive... well then this is still a stupid choice. The school, if they believe this way, just shined a huge spotlight on the issue and will result in high-powered people getting involved in a court decision, and over something so petty as a high school prom, I'm inclined to believe the courts will side with the ACLU and not the backwater Mississippi school district.


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Old 03-12-2010, 11:39 AM   #9
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We are talking Mississippi here. Some of the schools in the state still would not allow integrate proms until a few years ago. I really don’t see why the school is making a big deal about it. What are Mississippi proms so different that this is an issue? Do they allow sex acts during the prom? I would suggest that if they don’t like to see girls dancing together that they never go to a club.

Back in the Stone Age, at my junior prom, a male senior brought another male in drag to our prom. The school did not make an issue out of it and the prom went off without a hitch not including the immature laughter (including myself in this admission). This was conservative Texas and still the school allowed the entire issue to just blow over. It did not ruin our Prom, it did not corrupt us and it did not mean the more religious ones were giving their consent to any lifestyle. It just meant we were all there to enjoy the Prom.


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It's prom. It should be prohibited in the first place to keep intelligence in-check. Actually, scratch that; prom is an excellent benefactor of natural selection and inhibits exponential population growth.
Couldn't get a date?


I also find the not allowing the toddler into the school stupid. While I believe the church is well within its right, still I thought churches purpose was to “save our soul from everlasting damnation.” I guess that isn’t the case anymore.



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Old 03-12-2010, 12:40 PM   #10
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..still I thought churches purpose was to save our soul from everlasting damnation. I guess that isnt the case anymore.
Somehow I doubt that the kid's exclusion from a Catholic kindergarten or nursery school will be the cause of his/her damnation.


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Old 03-12-2010, 12:54 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Totenkopf View Post
Somehow I doubt that the kid's exclusion from a Catholic kindergarten or nursery school will be the cause of his/her damnation.
Is the kid exclusion going to help with his/her salvation?


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Old 03-12-2010, 01:01 PM   #12
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Doubt we'll ever know.


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Old 03-12-2010, 01:28 PM   #13
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Doubt we'll ever know.
You doubt we will ever know if his exclusion will help his salvation?

I'm not saying he will or will not be saved (if you believe in that sort of thing), I’m pretty sure if I don’t give a starving man a sandwich, I did not do anything to prevent his starvation. My not giving him substance does not mean he starved; someone else may be kinder than me and give the man a sandwich. It does mean I did nothing to prevent his starvation.

So I’m pretty sure, if school excludes the child (unless they allow the kid in later), they will do nothing to help his salvation.



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Old 03-12-2010, 02:35 PM   #14
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What I was saying is that it's irrelevant. You make it sound as though the exclusion from what is likely to be nursery school or kindergarten is going to have some kind of negative impact on his prospects for "salvation" and that the school is thus somehow irresponsibly negligent. Might as well argue that not allowing kids to say the Pledge of Allegiance will somehow not help make them responsible citizens in the end. Sheer speculation either way.


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Old 03-12-2010, 03:02 PM   #15
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Nope. Never said anything of the such. I said I thought the purpose of churches was to “save our soul from everlasting damnation.” They used to do this by attempting to teach young people "morals" through the stories of the bible and Christ. Never said it was the best way to learn morals, just find it funny that they have decided not even to attempt it on a toddler. I agree with it being irrelevant, just goes against those same Christian "morals" I was taught in church.


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Old 03-12-2010, 03:03 PM   #16
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I not saying he will or will not be saved (if you believe in that sort of thing), Im pretty sure if I dont give a starving man a sandwich, I did not do anything to prevent his starvation. My not giving him substance does not mean he starved; someone else may be kinder than me and give the man a sandwich. It does mean I did nothing to prevent his starvation.

So Im pretty sure, if school excludes the child (unless they allow the kid in later), they will do nothing to help his salvation.
While I see your point, I think this example is more similar to giving a starving man who's allergic to peanuts a PB&J sandwich. The school would have to teach the kid that his parents are eternally damned. I can understand why the school would want to avoid this, although perhaps they should take the child anyway, teach him what they believe to be right, and let his parents deal with the aftermath (it was their stupid decision). The child will suffer for that though, and perhaps the school is keeping the child's best interest in mind.


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Old 03-12-2010, 03:41 PM   #17
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Considering that Catholic schools are generally private, I was under the impression they had leeway to chose who they may or may not enroll. In any case, I fail to see why a lesbian couple would want to enroll their child in a school that clearly thinks his parents are sinners.

As for the school prom thing, it's moronic and petty.
The reason for wanting a Catholic school, it's a choice between public schoo, and one that will really teach. Back in the Dark ages, when dinosaurs ruled the Earth, when I was in Junior high, I remember having my hand swatted by a nun pretty much for or five times a day. This punishment was because I am left handed, and refused to write with my right hand.

Where do you think the term sinister (evil) came from?

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Nope. Never said anything of the such. I said I thought the purpose of churches was to save our soul from everlasting damnation. They used to do this by attempting to teach young people "morals" through the stories of the bible and Christ. Never said it was the best way to learn morals, just find it funny that they have decided not even to attempt it on a toddler. I agree with it being irrelevant, just goes against those same Christian "morals" I was taught in church.
They also 'saved' heretics by burning them at the stake or using punishments even worse just tp 'prove' they were innocent.

As for the prom, I saw the last of high school in 1971. Being gay was something you didn't see much of yet, since not long before that it had been illegal in some places, and in the military. Being 'outed' back then for a military man was a career killer; try an immediate medical discharge for psychiatric reasons without benefit of a doctor suggesting it. With the advent of AIDs it is still the medical discharge but now because you 'might' get it.

Would I care if they let the kids have their fun? Why would it bother me? If a child is that easily led, keep him away from politics or religion!


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Old 03-12-2010, 03:59 PM   #18
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The prom thing--a hotel has offered to host the prom instead. Sounds like the school decided simply to not deal with the situation. Prom is an extracurricular activity and it's not required that the school hold the event. I don't see how the aclu can force the district to hold the prom. It's draconian to be sure, but if the school board was looking at the costs of a legal battle and the potential for having to pay for extra police protection to protect the girls and prevent fights over this issue, they may well have decided there wasn't enough money in the budget. Scrapping the prom gets rid of the legal problem.

The Catholic school issue--private school, they get to set the rules. The priest said it was a very difficult decision to make, and I have no doubt it was. I would be surprised if he hadn't considered the issues that mimartin brought up. How do you take a stand on a doctrine, but then ignore it in this situation? Do the spiritual needs of the rest of the congregation get outweighed by the needs of the one? There is no way for anyone to 'win' in this case. The only way to go in this case is to go with the solution that causes the least damage. Hopefully the parents will be able to find excellent alternatives to this school.


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Old 03-12-2010, 04:31 PM   #19
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...perhaps they should take the child anyway, teach him what they believe to be right, and let his parents deal with the aftermath (it was their stupid decision). The child will suffer for that though, and perhaps the school is keeping the child's best interest in mind.
This issue seems incredibly familiar, and if I recall the last time this happened correctly, the school took their kids, and then the parents sued when the school started teaching that homosexuality was a sin, as the school had informed the parents they would do beforehand. And I'd really rather not see a school get entrapped like that, it's just lame.


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Old 03-12-2010, 04:32 PM   #20
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They also 'saved' heretics by burning them at the stake or using punishments even worse just tp 'prove' they were innocent.
I think that was a little before my time, at least I don't remember seeing that at bible school.


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Old 03-12-2010, 07:22 PM   #21
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but their belief prevents them from properly accepting them.
Only if they're homophobic (which is in violation of a lesser-known rule in the Catholic belief system).

On another note, how is a tuxedo a guys-only type of clothing?


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Old 03-12-2010, 07:36 PM   #22
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On another note, how is a tuxedo a guys-only type of clothing?
Yeah, and if she's in a tux, at least her parents don't have to worry about too much cleavage showing.


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Old 03-12-2010, 08:35 PM   #23
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I think that was a little before my time, at least I don't remember seeing that at bible school.
Actually, one thing I like about the Catholic Church is their admission what they did... as long as you're talking two or three centuries ago.


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Old 03-12-2010, 09:14 PM   #24
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Heh, Mississippi, what do you expect. While I think what the school district did was really stupid, I don't think they violated anyones' civil rights by cancelling prom. Prom isn't a findamental right. If they held it and wouldn't let her in, that'd probably be a different matter.

If they had just let the girl go to prom and not made a big deal about it, they wouldn't be getting national attention as homophobic rednecks.


As for the Catholic school. It's not a public school right? They can do whatever the heck they want.
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Old 03-12-2010, 10:51 PM   #25
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They can do whatever the heck they want.
May I ask what they can do has to do with anything?


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Old 03-12-2010, 11:05 PM   #26
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May I ask what they can do has to do with anything?
What more is there to say? It's a private school, and they have the right to refuse admissions for whatever reason they want.
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Old 03-12-2010, 11:42 PM   #27
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What more is there to say? It's a private school, and they have the right to refuse admissions for whatever reason they want.
I think the point TKA-001 was making was that what's really important is *should* they do it, not *can* they.
------------------------------------------
Personally, I think the Catholic school did the right thing. In the end, the beliefs held and taught at the school would be utterly incompatible with those of the parents, and I can't see a way there could be a positive outcome. Case in point: Web Rider's example in post #19.


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Old 03-13-2010, 12:57 AM   #28
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they may well have decided there wasn't enough money in the budget.
Enough in their budget for what? The legal battle, they are likely to face for their actions? Or for the cost of the Prom?

1. They did nothing to rid themselves of the legal battle by cancelling the prom, if anything they may have made it worse if the other students decide to retaliate.

2. Don’t know about Proms everywhere, but our prom was paid for by the students (including the hiring a off duty police officer). In the case of my high school the junior class plans and pays for the prom. I know I wasted 6 months of my lunch periods selling M&Ms and still had to beg a few business owners in the community for money to make up the difference. The school only provided the facility and the electricity. We even had to beg teachers to voluntarily chaperone. The main thing the prom taught me was when you are dating someone actually listen to what they are saying before you say “alright.”


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Old 03-13-2010, 01:19 AM   #29
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If you don't agree with the religion's standpoints, don't go to their institutions...but while you are there, expect that you will be under scrutiny so that their beliefs aren't, for lack of a better word, infringed on.

It's a sad part of life...but just like in things like gay marriage...any church should have a right not to please a gay couple if they don't want to.



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Old 03-13-2010, 01:31 AM   #30
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Yeah, and if she's in a tux, at least her parents don't have to worry about too much cleavage showing.
You underestimate the power of the tux.


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Old 03-13-2010, 01:37 AM   #31
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Eh, well...of the high schools I went to:

One was a rural high school. Tolerant of sexuality, but you still had to dress to your gender at events though standards were loose.

One was in a ****-hole in the seedy side of Sacramento. I imagine they couldn't care less, but everyone was a little too busy avoiding "shankings" and ass-kickings by the gang members, anyway. So, it didn't really matter b/c so many people were too scared to even show up. Especially white people.

One was in a rather conservative area. A few notches from being military. Mr. Buzzcut stereotype was a general description. I'll let you guess how they treated it, though by law they had to tolerate it to an extent in that they weren't discriminatory so far as the law was concerned (it was a public school afterall).

Not sure where I stand on this. Note that all 3 had alternatives of all kinds. Never went to any of them--had some issues and some bad habits back then.


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Old 03-24-2010, 12:03 AM   #32
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An update: the district judge has said that the girl's rights were violated but the (school-sponsored) prom is still cancelled.


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Old 03-24-2010, 11:21 PM   #33
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As far as I know up here in canada you couldn't make someone do that due to our Charter of Rights and Freedoms.


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Old 03-25-2010, 02:07 PM   #34
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Yes the judge recognized the violation of rights which was a good thing and should be considered a victory considering this is happening in Mississippi.

Really, I think this is a win-win. The prom will be privately sponsored, the school district gets to play dumb and not have to deal with it, and the judge didn't have to force anyone to do anything at least at the moment. The girl in question I think did what she should have done and stood up for what she believed in. The school district I think is being too conservative but then I'm sure there are entire portions of the United States where this same scenario would play out much the same way.

As far as the Catholic school thing goes...I'm not sure I agree with what they're doing but I understand they have a right to refuse entry to anyone as they are a private institution.


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Old 03-25-2010, 02:24 PM   #35
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Really, I think this is a win-win.
Unless of course you are not a member of the so-called in crowd and you do not get invited to the privately sponsored prom.


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Old 03-25-2010, 02:36 PM   #36
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hmm...hadn't thought of that variable...but I would hope that the better part of human nature would show through and an open invitation would be issued to all seniors and juniors or however they choose to format their prom. (i.e. mine was seniors only unless you were an underclassmen invited by a senior.)


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Old 03-25-2010, 03:28 PM   #37
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the in-crowd is all that matters anyway

Moderator note [03-25-2010 03:38 PM]

A subject for a different thread. Please keep posts on topic.




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Old 03-26-2010, 07:08 PM   #38
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As far as the Catholic school thing goes...I'm not sure I agree with what they're doing but I understand they have a right to refuse entry to anyone as they are a private institution.
Regrettably, yes, though I have this funny feeling people wouldn't be as okay with this if people were discriminated against on the basis of disabilities, skin colour, ethnicity or their stance on the eating of meat .

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I'd say the Catholic school was well w/in its rights and also question why anyone would want to send their kids through a system that was fundamentally in disagreement with their chosen lifestyle.
Weasel words noted.

You have a point -- Nemi (of the Norwegian comic with the same name) once said, while discussing the intolerance of the Salvation Army, that she doesn't understand Christians who want to be Christians, because to her they come across as Negroes (her wording) who want to join the Ku Klux Klan.

On the other hand, despite all the archaic stuff the Bible says about homosexuality, I view it as a good cause to try to nudge people people into the 21st century. There were probably lots of coloured kids who didn't want to go to school with the racist whites when Segregation ended, either, but that seems to have worked out just fine.

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Old 03-26-2010, 09:30 PM   #39
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So you're insinuating that their discretion is in some way racist? That it should be against the law because their beliefs simply disagree with it?
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Old 03-26-2010, 10:44 PM   #40
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So you're insinuating that their discretion is in some way racist?
No. I'm saying it's as baseless as racism or sexism.

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That it should be against the law because their beliefs simply disagree with it?
Going by the same reasoning, why should it be against the law for a private school to prohibit coloured people from joining?

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