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Old 03-14-2010, 05:26 AM   #41
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I would have liked him less top heavy with tiny legs...

More proportioned like this




Last edited by irishmile; 03-14-2010 at 05:34 AM.
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Old 03-14-2010, 05:33 AM   #42
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Anyone else notice the pegleg is already missing on the official site?
First thing I noticed.

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Old 03-14-2010, 05:40 AM   #43
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I wonder if that is confusing people less familiar with the game... if they even notice


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Old 03-14-2010, 06:56 AM   #44
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I wonder what Guybrush has been eating since MI1:SE... must be pure vitamins cos he looks far, far healthier doesn't he?
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Old 03-14-2010, 10:13 AM   #45
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http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/1224/mycover.png
The last attempt to correct MI2:SE cover... hope looks better than the original one:
http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/9...ginalcover.png

Changes:
-Lechuck's and Guybrush's hair look less geometric
-Lechuck's face is modified
-Guybrush looks more like he's in pain
-The monkey looks at LeChucks and it's a bit scaried (as it was in Purcell's art)
-Lechuck's clothes (and LC himself) looks more dirty/damaged
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Old 03-14-2010, 10:38 AM   #46
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Your cover looks really nice, Varrok. Especially Guybrush's face, it's subtle but makes a big difference. You should try shading LeChuck's beard a bit more. Maybe make it darker to the right where not a lot of light is hitting it. Overall it looks good though
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Old 03-14-2010, 11:02 AM   #47
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i dunno why's everyone is complaining about the beard...it looks very fine to me.
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Old 03-14-2010, 02:55 PM   #48
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Yep, me too, I like the 3Dness of the beard.

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Old 03-14-2010, 04:23 PM   #49
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I haven't thought that somebody may actually like it :P
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Old 03-14-2010, 05:34 PM   #50
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Its kind of a Non-Issue for me as well... Its really not THAT bad... people are going to think of us MI fans as picky and ungrateful.... But that is the nature of the internet I suppose...... DOWN WITH CAPT BLOCK BEARD!!!!


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Old 03-14-2010, 05:42 PM   #51
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I'm not that bothered by the beard. I suppose it could be better. But I like this beard better than LeChuck's beard in Tales.

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Old 03-14-2010, 06:07 PM   #52
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I can agree with that.


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Old 03-14-2010, 07:23 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by irishmile View Post
I would have liked him less top heavy with tiny legs...

More proportioned like this

I didn't see post before; that's a pretty badass looking LeChuck.
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Old 03-14-2010, 09:27 PM   #54
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Thanks that Lechuck art exists because of these boards and all the fun we had creating "what if?" art..... It was a blast... Cant believe its almost going to happen for real.


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Old 03-14-2010, 10:12 PM   #55
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If LucasArts or Telltale make any new Monkey Island games, I hope they do it in this style. I enjoyed TOMI, but I found it's graphics and atmosphere somewhat lacking. For me, MI has always been about two things - the humour, and just as importantly, the immersive atmosphere. MI2 was the most successful at this, and this Special Edition looks like it's doing a great job at capturing that. I would love to see this updated-classic-style™ applied to future adventures.

I would also love Steve Purcell to be involved in a larger capacity than painting the cover (as great as that was).
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Old 03-14-2010, 10:35 PM   #56
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Well, the reused models didn't help.
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Old 03-15-2010, 09:44 AM   #57
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i dunno why's everyone is complaining about the beard...it looks very fine to me.


haha! I think it's bloody awful. I don't see the point of it. It's not a 3d game, never was, never will be. Why would you WANT to make something look like it's being limited by 3d capabilities when the entire thing is hand drawn?

What bothers me most of all is that LucasArts themselves decided 20 years ago what these characters look like. What on earth are they doing changing things so much? Just make Guybrush look like Guybrush for goodness sake! All this "development of characters" is irritatingly pointless. It's a remake of an existing game, NOT a new game. In the first SE, they harped on about how true to the original it was, but it wasn't was it?

I wish I had loads and loads of money so that I could sponsor a remake done by all you loving fans who actually "get it". LucasArts doesn't.

EDIT: I should say though I do love the background art. They're obviously using a far improved technique compared to the first SE and the details seem to be spot on. But looking at the screenshots again... Elaine dangling from the rope in the hole leading to the underground tunnels... she's wearing completely different clothing to the original version. Why?

I know that it's impossible to keep everyone happy, but some of the design decisions in both SE games really baffle me. In particular... there's a man who's name starts with J who really shouldn't be working on these.

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Old 03-15-2010, 10:20 AM   #58
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it is a cover after all...i mean is it like this in game? besides it doesnt look that 3d
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Old 03-15-2010, 11:03 AM   #59
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I don't really get the 3D criticism. It looks like stylised curly hair to me, not 3D in the slightest. If anything it makes me think of DreamWorks, but not in the 'limited by this technology' kind of way.

I think the in-game LeChuck art looks spot on in just about every way. It definitely leans more towards how CMI depicted the same incarnation — which was notably less rugged-looking than in MI2 — but I loved that interpretation so I don't mind.

Not so keen on the cover art for various reasons (At least they didn't put the MI1:SE hair on the voodoo doll!), though.


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Old 03-15-2010, 11:30 AM   #60
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Thrik I hear you, but the fact remains: LeChuck does not look like that. LucasArts decided what he looks like 20 years ago. I really can't comprehend why they would want to change it. They have a perfect reference in the form of the original box art for LeChuck. That is what LeChuck's beard looks like in Monkey Island 2. End of story. They made it that way themselves.

He looks good in the SE as far as quality goes but he suddenly has someone else's beard and they still go on about how "true to the originals" the SE games are. Um... sorry.

I don't see why the covers couldn't have stayed exactly as they were, and the characters designed to look like the ones on the original cover. That is, after all, what they look like, and any other interpretation drives me absolutely nuts. Why why why why why?
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Old 03-15-2010, 11:35 AM   #61
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lol? if you dont want them to make something new...just tell them to make it talkie and leave the old graphics as it is.
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Old 03-15-2010, 11:53 AM   #62
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I just see the SE versions as wasted opportunities. This new background art is great, and I hope it doesn't suffer from the quality issues we saw in MI1:SE. If the characters were done properly, these would be very nearly perfect.

Probably the biggest issue with all this though is that they've turned something that was actually a bit scary in places into a cartoon joke. Compare original LeChuck & Guybrush to the new ones on the cover... that's not even the same game.
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Old 03-15-2010, 11:54 AM   #63
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I think when it comes to remakes you have to accept that some creative license will be taken by those tasked with interpreting the original material and creating their own version. This is something people often find very difficult when it comes to remakes, adaptations, etc (take the Lord of the Rings book fans who criticised the hell out of the superb movies). And as far as remakes go this is pretty damned faithful. When I first heard the words "Monkey Island remake" I shuddered.

It's a bit like how the music in the original SE was fantastic in my opinion, but it was notably different at times from the source material. Sure, maybe Michael and his team did decide 20 years ago that a certain flute or drum should be used at a certain point, but that doesn't mean the new composer shouldn't put something else in there if he thinks it's more appropriate and works better with his style.

At the end of the day, if all you want is the original game in every way then it's not going anywhere. Hell, if you want the original game with voices they're even providing that now.


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Old 03-15-2010, 11:57 AM   #64
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lol? if you dont want them to make something new...just tell them to make it talkie and leave the old graphics as it is.
you know, it's actually possible to make characters in high res without making them completly different from the original version, right? Special Editions team propably have no idea about it...

Quote:
I think when it comes to remakes you have to accept that some creative license will be taken by those tasked with interpreting the original material and creating their own version.
I think someone who has to recreate game has actually to play it more than 3 times - MI:SE didn't look for me like the devs played original game more times - IMO they didn't even TRY MI1SE chars to look like in MI1
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Old 03-15-2010, 12:16 PM   #65
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quote: ou know, it's actually possible to make characters in high res without making them completly different from the original version, right? Special Editions team propably have no idea about it...

and how's that?
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Old 03-15-2010, 12:51 PM   #66
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Quote:
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you know, it's actually possible to make characters in high res without making them completly different from the original version, right? Special Editions team propably have no idea about it...


I think someone who has to recreate game has actually to play it more than 3 times - MI:SE didn't look for me like the devs played original game more times - IMO they didn't even TRY MI1SE chars to look like in MI1
I personally thought most of the characters in the MI1 Special Edition looked good. It was only really Guybrush that looked off to me, and LeChuck was a near perfect hit apart from the inaccuracy with his face (But it looked better anyway and had no implications on story so who cares?).

Clearly the MI2 Special Edition LeChuck is based on the zombie form as depicted in Curse of Monkey Island, so at least they played that. I personally prefer his CMI-esque appearance to how he looked in the original.


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Old 03-15-2010, 01:11 PM   #67
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Thrik I never thought I'd disagree with you haha! About time actually

The way I see it CMI LeChuck is irrelevant, because CMI hasn't been made yet. And this is a remake of Monkey Island 2, not CMI.

It would be a bit easier to take if they didn't make such a song and dance about how faithful it is to the original but um... no.

You make a good point though, it seems to me that in the first SE, all the characters were just awesome, except the most important one. And look at the men of low moral fibre in the new SE, I love them! So why the changes to the lead characters?

I haven't understood much of what LucasArts has done in the last decade and I don't understand this either. If you're going to make the backgrounds so good, so faithful to the original, then why not do the same with the characters?
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Old 03-15-2010, 01:12 PM   #68
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Well if it bothers you that much, maybe there should be a collaboration to bring the graphics closer to the original.

I'm planning to make it look like Curse. Hopefully, it'll be as easy to mod as SMISE.
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Old 03-15-2010, 01:33 PM   #69
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Lechuck's idle stance seems stiff and action-figurey
Yeah this is the main problem I have. He doesn't stand like that at all in the original game.

I mean, I agree with nearly all of the criticism here about the look of the characters and LeChuck's more cartoony look, but I guess my expectations were so low, I'm less bothered than last time.

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you know, it's actually possible to make characters in high res without making them completly different from the original version, right? Special Editions team propably have no idea about it...
I will agree with this, even though others seemed to think Varrok was crazy or something. Like it or not, the Special Edition team is taking a lot of artistic license on their go arounds that just isn't exactly necessary.

I'm seeing it a lot less with Monkey Island 2 SE, but both of these games could have been done more *faithfully* than they are. A lot of the problems seem to stem from artists on the team doing their own style which either ranges from poor to completely different yet competant or a weird feeling I get that they feel it's their responsibility to bridge the gap to CMI style, which I don't think is necessary. Maybe some want all of the Monkey Islands to look like CMI, but the first two did well before CMI brought on many more fans and people genuinely enjoyed the art back then. The first two Monkey Island games were miles ahead of Zak McKracken or Maniac Mansion in terms of art direction, after all.

To do a completely faithful recreation would obviously be difficult to please everyone but it could have definitely been done more faithfully. Like most people said already, they could have based the art style more on Purcell's cover paintings and made the old sprites fit that style. There is also existing concept art that I'm sure none of us have ever seen as well as the art done for the manuals, code wheels, and a few things that appeared in old issues of the adventurer. I'm not saying all of this reference is completely enough to make a cohesive game in the style of Peter Chan or Steve Purcell without actually having those two on board, but looking at the finished characters as well as the initial concept art, the SE team didn't seem to take a cue from the existing art done for the first two games at all.

It's not necessarily a bad thing to reinterpret, but it's important to do a damn good job if you are going to. All of the amateurish art mistakes in the backgrounds and characters of the first SE didn't help whatever reinterpretation they were going for.

Really I'm just hoping the tone and atmosphere stays the same between the originals to the remakes more than anything if the art can be brought up to speed. I'm not that into making everything look more goofy or cartoon like, since I always felt it was more of the writer's job to achieve that in the original two.

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Old 03-15-2010, 01:53 PM   #70
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I guess my expectations were so low, I'm less bothered than last time.
This is very true. It is sad though.

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All of the amateurish art mistakes in the backgrounds and characters of the first SE didn't help whatever reinterpretation they were going for.
Yeah. Like I've said many times, one of the pillars of the original Monkey Island games was the quality and attention to detail. MI1:SE is a complete failure in this regard. I actually can't believe they haven't put out a patch for it. It would be so easy to do, and fix a lot of bad feeling towards them. Yet as has always been the case with LucasArts, even in the glory days, you get the impression that they don't really care about us. Even in the 90s, their products were second to none, but anyone who tried to contact them for anything will know how impossible this was.

Seriously, if this was my project, I would've put out a patch for it within a week. You get the impression that Telltale would do the same. Fix the Stan sign, that ridiculous mistake with the plank outside the kitchen and the quite ridiculous forest graphics among others. It's about being proud of your work and finishing something properly, as well as building relationships with your customers.

I go to the Telltale site just cos it kinda makes me happy. The whole Telltale experience is marvellous. Spending money there is actually enjoyable. LucasArts seem to be trying to do the same but they're missing the point quite badly. A twitter feed isn't going to make people love you.

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Old 03-15-2010, 05:24 PM   #71
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Well Snugglecakes, you are clearly an extreme purist, which I can understand up to certain point. What you don't seem to realize is that this remakes aren't created for us: hardcore MI fans. Even most people that know Monkey Island aren't hardcore fans and it's for them and all the new MI fans that LucasArts do it and aim to.

So, what they are trying to do is update the art-style, modernizing it a bit so that it can compete with games of this time, not with games from 20 years ago (like you suggest it should be, like if the game was frozen in time). I don't mind at all LeChuck's beard, and its not actually 3d as its not CG, its probably just photoshop. I certainly don't love it either, but to be honest when I first played MI2 I never thought "oh, holy cow, this game has an outstanding art direction!", I probably thought "this is friggin hilarious!".

I think you should be happy that the game contains the original version, which makes the whole thing even more pointless. Why would you recreate the exact same visuals in the exact same way if you are already having the original version in it?
We get the game re-released so that new generation of gamers can discover it and play it for the first time, and we old-timers also get the original version with new voice acting and apparently loads of incredible bonus material. Even if its not gloriously perfect, this is way more than you could normally expect from a project like this (which is, from the get go, very rare).

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Old 03-15-2010, 05:50 PM   #72
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Well Snugglecakes, you are clearly an extreme purist, which I can understand up to certain point. What you don't seem to realize is that this remakes aren't created for us: hardcore MI fans. Even most people that know Monkey Island aren't hardcore fans and it's for them and all the new MI fans that LucasArts do it and aim to.
Well who's to say a faithful art style to the original, just in higher resolution wouldn't appeal to new fans and old ones alike? I'm sure LucasArts is looking to appeal to everyone, because it's not a good business model to target just one group, old or new.

If anything, I almost always seem to hear people complain about cartoony exaggerated graphics putting them off and wanting a more realistic styled game. Many people seem so afraid of playing a kids game that they won't touch anything that even looks remotely like one. A more realistic Monkey Island 2 akin to the tone of the original game (assuming they didn't capture it this time around) and cover art would surely be a better bet, right?

I'm not sure the original two games can be marked as a dated art style, because I mean if you look at the backgrounds this time around, they are all almost mostly the same, in terms of brush strokes and construction. The SE team even added some grit on some backgrounds (though not enough) this time around, so that just leaves us with reinterpreted characters.

And if anything, the redesigned characters don't strike me as anything specifically modern for the beginning of this century if that can be defined at all. In fact, as odd as it may sound, it seems like Monkey Island 2 SE's characters have all been made to look like they are from Pepper's Adventures in Time:




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I certainly don't love it either, but to be honest when I first played MI2 I never thought "oh, holy cow, this game has an outstanding art direction!", I probably thought "this is friggin hilarious!".
Seriously? Compared to some of the other major adventure games of 1991, Monkey Island 2 was definitely way ahead in terms of art direction. Not until 1992 when Kyrandia came around do I think a graphic adventure rivaled the art direction MI2 had. Sierra's games at the time were pale, buggy messes, especially the ugliness that is Kinq's Quest 5. Not to mention Monkey Island 2 may have been the first adventure game where characters seemed to react to eachother during dialogue sequences in terms of expression.

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Old 03-15-2010, 06:10 PM   #73
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I think I'm squarely in the Snugglecakes and Synthetic Gerbil camp on this one. When I played MI2, I did actually exclaim "This game has amazing art direction!" as well as "This game is hilarious!" I was a huge fan of Steve Purcell's work on later LEC games like Sam & Max, and was surprised at how well his style worked even in older games like MI2 with its lovely painted scenery. Even MI1 had some great animation, artwork, scenery, and character design, though nothing approaching the caliber of MI2, of course.

Steve Purcell's style IS the Monkey Island style, and it is pretty much a perfect synthesis of gritty realism and cartoony exaggeration that fits the tone of the games perfectly, allowing terrifying voodoo zombies to cohabitate aesthetically with realistic human beings as well as bizarre caricatures like Stan.

People seemed totally smitten with Bill Tiller's Disnefied cartoon stuff (mostly people who played CMI first, I imagine), but to me it always felt like one of the many missteps (alongside dropping the ball narratively, and not being as funny) in a game I found pretty disappointing all around, and which featured none of the creative team that made the first two so amazing.

I think the first SE opted for a (crummy, sub-CMI) cartoony style because the cheap, crummy artist they had on staff could draw in that style, and couldn't even hope to do some Steve Purcell-quality work. The second one seems to want to follow the cartoony aesthetic tradition of the previous one for consistency's sake, but LEC appears to have hired artists that actually know how to make art this time. The work shows a marked improvement, but still isn't really a suitable style.

There are time when I wish I had a million free hours to spend doing something trivial, to try and use the editing tools mentioned on these forums to do a proper, Purcellish, SE spriteset. But that would be so insanely time-intensive, even if I were as talented as Steve, which I'm certainly not. Which is probably another reason why LEC opted out of it for their tight-budget re-release.
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Old 03-15-2010, 06:12 PM   #74
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I'm not saying there is something wrong with expecting things to be the same, I'm just saying it's a bit naive to do so.

And while you (SyntheticGerbil) may have a point there, let me put it this way. MI1:SE, clearly did well enough (money-wise), or they wouldn't have made MI2. So, the formula (including Guybrush hideous hair) did work the first time. This time they even improved on the art side of things apparently, so I don't expect them to suddenly change their direction.
The cover for MI1 does actually look old (as much as I like it, and I do have it on my room door. Thanks Laserschwert), and should they have used it (or the exact same graphics from the game), it might have not worked so well. I don't know, but I do know that the way they did things actually worked fine. That's what I'm saying.
Again, be thankful. Remember, this is an adventure game. How many old adventure games have been re-released on so many platforms and yet be successful enough that they release more of them?

Also, new I kinda want to try Pepper's Adventures in Time.

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Old 03-15-2010, 06:41 PM   #75
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Does anybody know what the Purcell/Chan ratio was on the backgrounds?

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Old 03-15-2010, 08:08 PM   #76
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I have to say, I agree with your sentiments, guys. I also thought the first two games had outstanding art direction and atmosphere, particularly the second one. I never understood the love for the CMI cartoony style. I loved the games for their immersive atmosphere and sense of real adventure just as much as the humor.

I also loved the light horror aspects of MI2; the game had an edge. LeChuck was a really badass looking villain who you actually feared a little. He's since become more of a buffoon/less threatening presence, but man, his wavering, rocking corpse glued my eyes to the screen back in the day. And how evil did he look when he was taking such pleasure in torturing Guybrush. I remember jumping in my chair whenever he would burst into one of the tunnels during that showdown.

These elements are what made it a cut above everything that has come since. All the games were funny, but MI2 had an edge that everything else lacked. And by the look of things, they are not embracing that, but are trying to tone it down. Guys - don't. Nothing has ever topped MI2 and this is one of the main reasons why.

In terms of character design, from what I've seen they have nailed the supporting characters, but I agree about Guybrush and LeChuck. Steve Purcell's covers did indeed define the look of the first two games. And just look how he crafted LeChuck. That, is an iconic villain.

Giving LeChuck short, cartoonish legs does nothing to improve him - it makes him look comical, and that is the last thing you want. LeChuck is not funny. LeChuck is cool, badass and terrifying. Guybrush is funny. The supporting characters are funny. LeChuck is not, and never, ever, should be. The moment the villain loses credibility is the moment the dramatic tension is gone from the story. And Monkey Island is more than just an excuse for jokes. Or the first two were, anyway.

They did nail his walk, though. Man, that is an awesome walk.
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Old 03-16-2010, 03:30 AM   #77
Snugglecakes
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to be honest when I first played MI2 I never thought "oh, holy cow, this game has an outstanding art direction!", I probably thought "this is friggin hilarious!".
Wow... did you play it in 91? lol I thought it was by far the most amazing thing I'd ever seen... and it was.

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What you don't seem to realize is that this remakes aren't created for us: hardcore MI fans. Even most people that know Monkey Island aren't hardcore fans and it's for them and all the new MI fans that LucasArts do it and aim to.

So, what they are trying to do is update the art-style, modernizing it a bit so that it can compete with games of this time, not with games from 20 years ago (like you suggest it should be, like if the game was frozen in time).

I think you should be happy that the game contains the original version, which makes the whole thing even more pointless. Why would you recreate the exact same visuals in the exact same way if you are already having the original version in it?
It doesn't matter who it's being created for. There's nothing wrong with the original characters, and your argument makes no sense because they ARE redoing all the art to make it look good in the year 2010. I never suggested the SE should be in 320x200 and have adlib sound did I? Of course they have to modernize it, and they've done just that. But why on earth change the way the characters look? They could easily look like the original characters and still be "modernized". I see no point at all, for new fans or old, in changing the way they look. The game is set in an old Caribbean time, it's not as if the original was set in 1991 and now needs updated characters to be fashionable in 2010.

Last edited by Snugglecakes; 03-16-2010 at 04:32 AM.
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Old 03-16-2010, 03:32 AM   #78
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I loved the games for their immersive atmosphere and sense of real adventure just as much as the humor.

I also loved the light horror aspects of MI2; the game had an edge. LeChuck was a really badass looking villain who you actually feared a little. He's since become more of a buffoon/less threatening presence, but man, his wavering, rocking corpse glued my eyes to the screen back in the day. And how evil did he look when he was taking such pleasure in torturing Guybrush. I remember jumping in my chair whenever he would burst into one of the tunnels during that showdown.

These elements are what made it a cut above everything that has come since. All the games were funny, but MI2 had an edge that everything else lacked. And by the look of things, they are not embracing that, but are trying to tone it down. Guys - don't. Nothing has ever topped MI2 and this is one of the main reasons why.

LeChuck is not funny. LeChuck is cool, badass and terrifying. Guybrush is funny. The supporting characters are funny. LeChuck is not, and never, ever, should be. The moment the villain loses credibility is the moment the dramatic tension is gone from the story. And Monkey Island is more than just an excuse for jokes. Or the first two were, anyway.
Exactly
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Old 03-16-2010, 06:15 AM   #79
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I was actually very afraid that this would happen.
How could they possibly make a Special Edition of the best adventure game ever?
I was especially afraid after I saw how the first SE looked...
Well, maybe it's because of the low expectations that first one gave me, but I think they improved just about everything. They really listened to their fans.

That said, I might even play this one! But probably only once...
The original just holds such fond memories for me, to me it's totally unnecessary to make a remake. This was my opinion on the first one, and it still is on the second one.

I like the *ingame* look of LeChuck though, he looks scary, I think he looks scary enough, even though his stand is a little too stiff. I just hope he still spits when he talks.
Guybrush actually looks more like Guybrush now, even though I don't like the blonde hair in this version.
The thing that bothers me though is that everything looks like it's animated in Flash.
I think the pixels make the game look less cheap. Nowadays everyone can make those kind of animations. For example, the LeChuck walk (however awesome) looks really tweeny. While the original just looked like frame by frame pixel animation.

This being said, I like the extra efford they put in this version. I just think it was unnecessary to make special edition of an already perfect game.


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Old 03-16-2010, 11:13 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by Snugglecakes View Post
They could easily look like the original characters and still be "modernized". I see no point at all, for new fans or old, in changing the way they look. The game is set in an old Caribbean time, it's not as if the original was set in 1991 and now needs updated characters to be fashionable in 2010.
I think his point was that somehow realistic style characters aren't modern anymore, but I see the painterly look done all of the time with slightly exaggerated realism now with digital art, which is pretty much Purcell's style when he's not doing full exaggeration.

So I don't agree with the actual style being dated, but I guess it's a subjective thing.
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