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Old 07-11-2010, 08:49 PM   #41
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Yeah, that was my other reason. I want to experience MI in its original glory, so I ordered a like-new copy from Amazon.com. It should arrive next week, and I'll run it in ScummVM and finally see what all the hype is about!


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Old 07-11-2010, 10:30 PM   #42
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Not quite sure why you posted your question in the 'annoyances' thread, but I'd not get my expectations too high. As much as I love Monkey Island, it's not going to be as mind blowing as it once was, especially for someone who's already played later LucasArts titles. Post back with your thoughts, though.

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Old 07-11-2010, 10:40 PM   #43
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Will do!


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Old 07-12-2010, 12:33 AM   #44
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I'm super PO'd. I'm at the crypt and the game is frozen. I can access hints or the menu but I can't use any command actions in either old school mode or new mode. It's like when I try to blow through dialogue the game gets cranky.
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Old 07-12-2010, 04:31 AM   #45
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Major annoyances:
- The frigging intro. Come on, guys, make a 1.1 patch, it must come back!
- The frigging outro. Come one, guys, this is a sequence o' sentences, it can be programmed in an hour!

Major major annoyance:
- The German translation is seriously been messed with. The classic translation of Boris Schneider did take some liberties with the original text, in order to save a joke or a pun (every good translator knows that you have to do that sometimes). So LEC did take his translation as a base and then ruined it by taking all the creative deviations (puns) and replaced them by literal translations, often losing the joke entirely.
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Old 07-12-2010, 08:29 AM   #46
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I'm super PO'd. I'm at the crypt and the game is frozen. I can access hints or the menu but I can't use any command actions in either old school mode or new mode. It's like when I try to blow through dialogue the game gets cranky.
This happened to me after being captured in the fortress - loading a save fixed it, at least it autosaves occasionally.
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Old 07-12-2010, 03:25 PM   #47
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This happened to me after being captured in the fortress - loading a save fixed it, at least it autosaves occasionally.
Major gamer fail on my part. I kept saving over the same save file because it was my second time through and I wasn't thinking.
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Old 07-12-2010, 08:03 PM   #48
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Major major annoyance:
- The German translation is seriously been messed with. The classic translation of Boris Schneider did take some liberties with the original text, in order to save a joke or a pun (every good translator knows that you have to do that sometimes). So LEC did take his translation as a base and then ruined it by taking all the creative deviations (puns) and replaced them by literal translations, often losing the joke entirely.
That sucks. Makes me feel lucky that English is my native language.

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Old 07-13-2010, 09:27 AM   #49
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Things that annoy me slightly:

1. Stan started talking to me in a muffled 'inside the coffin' voice before he actually got in the coffin
2. Once you've taken Jojo from The Bloody Lip, the music no longer plays in there, only the metronome ticks. When going from Scabb into the bar you briefly hear the start of the bar theme before it abruptly stops.
3. The animation when Rapp Scallion appears is actually smoother in the original game than in the new one, and looks nicer in my opinion.
4. The dream sequence was poor I thought - the skeleton dance wasn't very well animated and the lyrics being out of time with the song was unforgivable - surely they could have just embedded the actual lyrics within the song and synched up the subtitles? Seems like an easy option, but I'm no programmer!
5. Captain Kate Capsize's voice is proper annoying - "Sightseeing! Sightseeing!"

Everything else is spot on and I love the HD style!

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Old 07-13-2010, 11:52 AM   #50
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1. Stan started talking to me in a muffled 'inside the coffin' voice before he actually got in the coffin
Yeah that was weird too. I think there were only 3 lines like that. Stan says so much it seems they may have put the wrong processing on some of the voices.

Also some of the things assumed Stan will say inside the coffin (like when you mess with your inventory), or outside the coffin stayed the same from either way, meaning maybe it was muffled when it wasn't supposed to be or vice versa. Oh well, not a big deal to me for some reason.

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3. The animation when Rapp Scallion appears is actually smoother in the original game than in the new one, and looks nicer in my opinion.
I found this incredibly strange. He was one of the only minor characters to get a 3D model to allow extra frames in almost every instance. I have a feeling maybe he was started on first with the intention of having all of the characters with extra frames of animation, and possibly that was abandoned at some point?

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5. Captain Kate Capsize's voice is proper annoying - "Sightseeing! Sightseeing!"
Haha, I guess I'm the only one okay with her voice. I alway sort of pictured her as both bored and stuck up. I thought the voice got her annoyance and prissiness well.
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Old 07-13-2010, 02:43 PM   #51
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I liked Kate as well.
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Old 07-13-2010, 08:33 PM   #52
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I also liked Kate... but I'm saddened to hear about the other annoyances (haven't got that far yet). I did think it was a bit annoying to hear Kate say the same lines over and over with little or no variation, though.

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Old 07-13-2010, 09:28 PM   #53
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Kate's voice was good, but it was hard to listen to her say those random snippets over and over every time you walked by. But that was nobody's fault really; they were written before the game had voice acting and it wasn't annoying then.


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Old 07-13-2010, 11:32 PM   #54
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I like new Elaine, but I think they should be a bit more suitable with the original one.

Like this:


http://jinndemonevil.deviantart.com/...edit-171227224


ScummBR Translations
http://www.scummbr.com
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Old 07-14-2010, 12:08 AM   #55
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I don't really like Elaine's face in the new SE. It looks kind of... man-ish to me. Or something.

Your edit of the outfit looks really nice, though.


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Old 07-14-2010, 08:20 AM   #56
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I like new Elaine, but I think they should be a bit more suitable with the original one.

Like this:


http://jinndemonevil.deviantart.com/...edit-171227224
Brilliant! I don't know why they changed it.
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Old 07-14-2010, 08:48 AM   #57
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Kate's voice was good, but it was hard to listen to her say those random snippets over and over every time you walked by. But that was nobody's fault really; they were written before the game had voice acting and it wasn't annoying then.
Actually on the subject of that, Wally whining when losing his monocle, and people cheering during the spitting contest, am I just imagining things or was all of that dialog happening at a constant flow? I swear there used to longer be pauses between people talking, like maybe the constant occurrence of dialog has something to do with the timing problems?

Maybe I'm just talking out of my ass since I'm used to Sierra games doing crap like that in modern times and now everything is heard instead of read.
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Old 07-15-2010, 07:14 PM   #58
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Apart from the obvious stuff people already mentioned, mine are:

1. LeChuck looks a bit too 3D and is really out of place compared to other sprites.
2. Herman Toothrot! What did they do to the poor guy's face?
3. Now this is a big thing and I don't think it really counts, but it still bugs me. They did that 3D trailer with Guybrush and LeChuck in the woods. And I can't help but think... Why didn't they make the intro, the bone song and/or the ending as pre-rendered 3D cut-scenes? It's not too hard just making a 3d model of a monkey and a skeleton, then animating the whole thing and adding some black/red background. Maybe I want too much. But still... They COULD have done it and it bugs me because they just didn't.
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Old 07-16-2010, 12:27 AM   #59
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Apart from the obvious stuff people already mentioned, mine are:

1. LeChuck looks a bit too 3D and is really out of place compared to other sprites.
2. Herman Toothrot! What did they do to the poor guy's face?
3. Now this is a big thing and I don't think it really counts, but it still bugs me. They did that 3D trailer with Guybrush and LeChuck in the woods. And I can't help but think... Why didn't they make the intro, the bone song and/or the ending as pre-rendered 3D cut-scenes? It's not too hard just making a 3d model of a monkey and a skeleton, then animating the whole thing and adding some black/red background. Maybe I want too much. But still... They COULD have done it and it bugs me because they just didn't.
It's not because they didn't feel like doing it, it's because they ran out of time. The intro was one of the last things they were working on. There is still no excuse not to patch it.
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Old 07-16-2010, 01:08 AM   #60
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Actually on the subject of that, Wally whining when losing his monocle, and people cheering during the spitting contest, am I just imagining things or was all of that dialog happening at a constant flow? I swear there used to longer be pauses between people talking, like maybe the constant occurrence of dialog has something to do with the timing problems?

Maybe I'm just talking out of my ass since I'm used to Sierra games doing crap like that in modern times and now everything is heard instead of read.
Hmm, well everything was definitely faster in this game, so I'm sure the dialogue got a boost too. I think they chose just to speed one thing up (maybe the ambient speaking, maybe Governer Phatt's food tubes, could be anything) and never realized that it messed with like, the whole rest of the game.


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Old 07-16-2010, 04:00 PM   #61
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3. Now this is a big thing and I don't think it really counts, but it still bugs me. They did that 3D trailer with Guybrush and LeChuck in the woods. And I can't help but think... Why didn't they make the intro, the bone song and/or the ending as pre-rendered 3D cut-scenes? It's not too hard just making a 3d model of a monkey and a skeleton, then animating the whole thing and adding some black/red background. Maybe I want too much. But still... They COULD have done it and it bugs me because they just didn't.
Not that it helps fully explain your question since LucasArts also used prerendered 3D models for the basis of many of the characters, but the 3D trailer was done by Blur Studios who is more experienced in 3D animation.

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Hmm, well everything was definitely faster in this game, so I'm sure the dialogue got a boost too. I think they chose just to speed one thing up (maybe the ambient speaking, maybe Governer Phatt's food tubes, could be anything) and never realized that it messed with like, the whole rest of the game.
That's possible. The main reason I think of it is because Tim Schafer was talking about turning up some kind of weird thing in Scumm during the commentary... argh, I can't remember what. But he used it for speeding up nailing the coffin and the flag changing. So maybe it has something to do with it? but I can only guess because I don't know anything about programming or how Scumm is put together.
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Old 07-16-2010, 05:45 PM   #62
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That was a Scumm component and present in the original. Not sure that it would have hurt the remake?

<Not a SCUMM expert either.
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Old 07-17-2010, 01:36 AM   #63
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Was anyone else bothered by Kate's leaflet and the Elvis Collector's Plate while they were in your inventory? They looked really ugly.
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Old 07-17-2010, 02:14 AM   #64
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Was anyone else bothered by Kate's leaflet and the Elvis Collector's Plate while they were in your inventory? They looked really ugly.
I don't remember noticing Kate's leaflet, but I do remember thinking something was a little off with that Elvis plate, now that you mention it.


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Old 07-17-2010, 07:22 PM   #65
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Okay, I just finished Secret of Money Island. It was cute. I only got stuck a few times, and referred to the walkthru as a last resort. We had to call the 1-800-Star-Wars hint line back in the day (1994), because they didn't have handy walkthru guides in those days. LOL

I laughed at the very end of the credits when it said: Now turn off your computer and go to sleep!

Classic LucasArts!


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Old 07-17-2010, 10:46 PM   #66
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My biggest gripe is a claim from Gilbert himself:
"On a modern computer, turning off min jiffies would make it go faster than light."

The fact that min jiffies is no longer turned off is what causes all the timing issues, such as the spitting contest and the fact that the roulette wheel takes 200 years to stop spinning.

Ron's claim is wrong, too, since ScummVM can successfully turn off min jiffies.

(the quote is from the commentary at Stan's. It may have actually been Tim that said it, but I can't remember now, "turning off min jiffies" in SCUMM is how you get the sped up animations and whatnot)
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Old 07-18-2010, 07:59 AM   #67
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The roulette wheel always took ages to stop. In the SE I think its more tolerable.

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Old 07-18-2010, 11:36 AM   #68
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My guess would rather be that they simply sped up the animations to make them seem more fluid. Much easier way of improving any choppy animation than adding more frames to it, and it seems like LucasArts will always take the quick and easy path if provided the option. And we all know where that leads to.... the dark side!

After my huge disappointment with the first SE I decided I would read the impressions of you guys before purchase and while most seem to be happy with it I'm glad I didn't pick it up yet. I guess I'll be waiting for a patch or a sale, whichever comes first. Although it wouldn't surprise me if they didn't do any patching despite a very ambiguous/vague hint on twitter/facebook.
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Old 07-18-2010, 05:52 PM   #69
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What? Even with all these problems, MI2SE is still a must-have. $10 is a steal! I'm glad I bought it.
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Old 07-20-2010, 10:00 PM   #70
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I dislike the way they revamped the Guybrush design. And what aches me the most is that they nailed it right at the first time but decided to go with a completely bland and expressionless design instead.


[original design]



[final design]



For god's sake how can you turn out something like this?! It's near perfection! So I would like to beg; beg to someone who might read this and is talented enough, to please remake the Guybrush sprites into something like the original version. We can rebuild him. We have the technology.


Meh, screw you.

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Old 07-21-2010, 09:01 AM   #71
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Purcell's original cover picture of gybrush on the MI2 cover was how I imagined him. They should have made him like that. Anyway I will never get the special editions, I think half the point in those days was that you used your imagination to fill in the gaps, technology wise (like the voice acting for example). Which suits me fine.


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Old 07-21-2010, 09:53 AM   #72
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I think half the point in those days was that you used your imagination to fill in the gaps
I really doubt that was intentional, it was just the limit of technology. If they had a chance to do hires graphics, voice acting and live music, they would've done it just as well. But of course, the "filling the gaps with your imagination"-thing is the reason, why some are pleased with the SEs and some are not.

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Old 07-21-2010, 10:14 AM   #73
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Purcell's original cover picture of gybrush on the MI2 cover was how I imagined him. They should have made him like that.
Purcell's Monkey Island character sketches, (at least the pieces most of us are familiar with, like the cover art and the coffin sailling piece) are bit more on the realistic side, not exactly fitting for in-game placement, unlike his background concepts who were straight adapted. The first version, I posted, although newly sketched by someone else, really follows along the Purcell lines on more cartoony character creation (if you're familiar with his other works).

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Anyway I will never get the special editions, I think half the point in those days was that you used your imagination to fill in the gaps, technology wise (like the voice acting for example). Which suits me fine.
Like Laserschwert just said, that was the edge of 2D graphic technology back then. When they were first released, the Monkey Island games were what we today AAA titles. Probably had some of the best graphics of their time, for a game of that lenght. However there were games that worked exactly like you described. Full text adventures like the Zork series, or proto-RPGs like Rogue.


Meh, screw you.

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Old 07-21-2010, 10:20 AM   #74
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Now I've heard Kate's voice more, I have to agree it's really bad. When Guybrush is talking to her on Booty, I can see what they were going for, and it kind of works, but when she's in jail on Phatt or calling out "Sightseeing", she sounds really bad.

I understand the Janeane Garofalo thing they were going for, but that stuff only works best when Guybrush is trying to get something from her. When she's angry... she really is angry.

There's a few wonky inventory items, too. Like the matches and Ash-2-Life. Rap Scallion's animation was really buggy and weird, too. Getting closer to the end!

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Old 07-21-2010, 10:42 AM   #75
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Rap Scallion's animation was really buggy and weird, too. Getting closer to the end!
The problem is that they didn't increase the amount of frames when they remade the sprited to HD. So the animation obviously looks a lot more clunky despite having the same number of frames. It's animation 101 for you. The more detailed your character is, the harder it is to animate. That's why they only use one colour per body part on actual cartoons (occasionally 2, if you can afford shading).


Meh, screw you.
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Old 07-21-2010, 12:29 PM   #76
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I agree with the V.1 Guybrush, but I know a lot of people were not into that because of continuity with the other games and his deadbeat type look.

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The problem is that they didn't increase the amount of frames when they remade the sprited to HD. So the animation obviously looks a lot more clunky despite having the same number of frames. It's animation 101 for you. The more detailed your character is, the harder it is to animate. That's why they only use one colour per body part on actual cartoons (occasionally 2, if you can afford shading).
This is inaccurate. As I stated earlier in the thread, not only did they not increase the amount of frames (not that they needed to be increased in that case, as the original frame count is more than enough) they dropped many frames as well, therefore coming out much choppier. The original morphing animation is smooth, resolution doesn't have a thing to do with it.

I don't know why it's animation 101, because even still they have been animating detailed characters all along (even though many drawn over prerendered 3D models), and no where have they been using the one or two color traditional cel shading methods anywhere in the remakes. It's just digital painting. It's much easier than painting a acetate cel, so because of this, in the last decade or so many animation studios can afford to do more complicated or nicer looking animation for about the same cost, just because of the quickness of digital methods. Really the Rapp Scallion animation just required someone spending some extra time to redo all of the frames from the original, I don't see any point in excusing them on this.

Also, the reason they can easily add frames for many of the other character animations is because they are rendering from 3D models (and drawing over them), which makes it very easy to create inbetweens. No where were frames added without a 3D model as a basis.

For obvious reasons, making a 3D model of Rapp Scallion to morph from ashes would have not worked.

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Old 07-21-2010, 01:07 PM   #77
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I agree with the V.1 Guybrush, but I know a lot of people were not into that because of continuity with the other games and his deadbeat type look.
Well, all things considered, the MI:SE character looks are fairly different of the MI2:SE looks. So I don't think continuity is all that much important. As for the deadbeat look, I think its quite justifiable. Guybrush's personality has slightly evolved on the second game. He became a lot more arrogant and sleazy, grabbing about his past feats at every chance he gets and hitting on random women (like Kate). Either way, most people dislike MI1:SE's Guybrush, and I've seen some respriting projects around here. I'm not a good 2D artist, but I'm fairly proficient with 3D mesh creation. Perhaps I'll give it a shot as soon as I get my new gfx card.

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This is inaccurate. Not only did they not increase the amount of frames (not that they needed to be increased in that case, as the original frame count is more than enough) they dropped many frames as well, therefore coming out much choppier. The original morphing animation is smooth, resolution doesn't have a thing to do with it.
You sure they dropped frames? I haven't checked the sprite files yet, but if so then, wow. That was a really bad idea.

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Originally Posted by SyntheticGerbil View Post
I don't know why it's animation 101, because even still they have been animating detailed characters all along (even though many drawn over prerendered 3D models), and no where have they been using the one or two color traditional cel shading methods anywhere in the remakes. It's just digital painting. It's much easier than painting a acetate cel, so because of this, in the last decade or so many animation studios can afford to do more complicated or nicer looking animation for about the same cost, just because of the quickness of digital methods. Really the Rapp Scallion animation just required someone spending some extra time to redo all of the frames from the original, I don't see any point in excusing them on this.
I believe you misunderstood what I meant. When I said, "this is animation 101" I merely wanted to say something like, "these are the basic principles of animation. The more detail, the more frames it requires to look better". And regarding digital animation, don't forget that modern animation is highly based on flash technology. It can produce very fluid results with an impressive amount of detail in a short time, but if you ask me, it doesn't look half as good as classic animation, which is a shame, since it's almost a nearly extinct form of art by now. Most studios simply do it in flash because it's cheaper, and you don't have to send your stuff to korea to get animated in one of those animation sweatshops. Now as for 3D tracing, I believe it's far from being a perfect method. Sometimes traced sprites look like they're made of papier-marche, with a certain uncomfortable stiffness to it. So I still prefer the old methods, although I perfectly understand the processes involved would raise the production methods way higher.
Either way, I'm not excusing them either for the poor work on Rapp Scalion's sequence, exactly like you said, with a bit more of effort, I'm sure they could've done it right.

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Originally Posted by SyntheticGerbil View Post
Also, the reason they can easily add frames for many of the other character animations is because they are rendering from 3D models (and drawing over them), which makes it very easy to create inbetweens. No where were frames added without a 3D model as a basis.

For obvious reasons, making a 3D model of Rapp Scallion to morph from ashes would have not worked.
Indeed. One can notice they used a 3d mesh for Guybrush and LeChuck quite easily. As a matter of fact, they did something that I loathe and that quite honestly I don't understand. They splitted the animation detail unequally on the 3D rendered chars. For instance, the walking cycles look as smooth as a baby's bottom, but for example, when LeChuck is nodding is head wile speaking you can clearly notice they cut some inbetweens from the original 3D animation. Why did they do this?


Meh, screw you.

Last edited by V. Melkalis; 07-21-2010 at 01:15 PM.
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Old 07-21-2010, 02:08 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by V. Melkalis View Post
You sure they dropped frames? I haven't checked the sprite files yet, but if so then, wow. That was a really bad idea.
I'm sure they dropped frames just by comparing a Youtube of the original game and looking at the remake a few times, but I don't have the actual numbers or rips anything to prove it. I apologize if that seems disingenuine of me, I'm just going by my own experience in animation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIRT9xw4nuw

I've never seen a sprite rip of the original Rapp Scallion, and I don't have access to the new sprites. If anyone wants to get both these and compare, I'm almost completely sure it would show less frames were made for the new edition. It was a pretty complicated animation in the first place, so while it's cool they tried, I wish they would have pulled it off in full.

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Originally Posted by V. Melkalis View Post
It can produce very fluid results with an impressive amount of detail in a short time, but if you ask me, it doesn't look half as good as classic animation, which is a shame, since it's almost a nearly extinct form of art by now. Most studios simply do it in flash because it's cheaper, and you don't have to send your stuff to korea to get animated in one of those animation sweatshops. Now as for 3D tracing, I believe it's far from being a perfect method. Sometimes traced sprites look like they're made of papier-marche, with a certain uncomfortable stiffness to it. So I still prefer the old methods, although I perfectly understand the processes involved would raise the production methods way higher.
Wow, I agree incredibly sincerely and fullheartedly with everything you are saying here. I do like the things Flash (and other digital animation programs) can do with tweens that someone would have to spend hours on before, but I think they are best regulated to where you don't notice tweens are being used or made as a sort of hybrid to enhance the traditional frame by frame animation. It sucks that we have all the tools and programs to do frame by frame stuff much quicker than two decades ago, but instead all studios would rather just cheap out even more than they were previously with the same tools.

I'm definitely not encouraging their method of tracing over prerendered 3D sprites by any means, I just noticed it was something they did to finish their animation faster in the remakes when people were ripping sprites the first time around. It was much more noticeable in the first Special Edition though, so I think this time around they didn't do it for everyone or at least cleaned up the hard edges of the 3D models enough so that it was apparent in many cases.

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Originally Posted by V. Melkalis View Post
Indeed. One can notice they used a 3d mesh for Guybrush and LeChuck quite easily. As a matter of fact, they did something that I loathe and that quite honestly I don't understand. They splitted the animation detail unequally on the 3D rendered chars. For instance, the walking cycles look as smooth as a baby's bottom, but for example, when LeChuck is nodding is head wile speaking you can clearly notice they cut some inbetweens from the original 3D animation. Why did they do this?
Yeah this was bothersome to me as well. While personally, I would be just happy if they stuck to the original frame rates of the old games and just had someone really experienced in traditional animation and character design redo the frames well, I don't mind the idea of added frames at all. It is very odd they were inconsistant about the added frames and which characters were based on 3D models. It sticks out most when Guybrush is talking to Bart and Fink when he looks like he's almost from a completely different game than his counterparts the way his head bobs in 3D space while the other two guys just have their mouths open and close. I still find it strange that Rum Rogers was given a ton of added frames stemming from a 3D model, while other minor characters were left alone.
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Old 07-21-2010, 02:27 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by SyntheticGerbil View Post
It sticks out most when Guybrush is talking to Bart and Fink when he looks like he's almost from a completely different game than his counterparts the way his head bobs in 3D space while the other two guys just have their mouths open and close. I still find it strange that Rum Rogers was given a ton of added frames stemming from a 3D model, while other minor characters were left alone.
I found that exception on Rum Rogers to be quite bizarre aswell. I smell production rushing due to milestones and/or increased costs. God damn it, Lucasarts, why must you always screw us up somehow? Either way, I hope to see some intense character modding in the future to solve these flaws, since frankly, I don't believe Lucasarts will ever add more graphical content, even if we beg them for DLC.

At least the backgrounds are gorgeous. But I suppose we should mainly thank Steve Purcell for his quality work 16 years ago. The new backgrounds were pratically traced from the old art with little changes and improvements.


*EDIT*

Also I managed to find a .gif version of the original Rapp Scallion animation on a fansite. Here it is.



Meh, screw you.

Last edited by V. Melkalis; 07-21-2010 at 06:34 PM.
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Old 07-22-2010, 09:18 PM   #80
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Also your suggestion of Rockstar Leeds is unapplicable. The income disparity between a UK and US company is way less prominent than one between a US and an Asian country. The cultural and language barriers are less so. Besides, Rockstar US doesn't have to pay anyone's healthcare in the UK. If it weren't for the healthcare system, no one would ever outsource anything to the UK from the US because it wouldn't make economical sense.
Slightly off-topic but I have to correct your misapprehension here - the Grand Theft Auto series has always been made in the UK, even before Rockstar became Rockstar. It's an entirely British-made franchise. It's not outsourced, it's just made here.

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