lfnetwork.com mark read register faq members calendar

Thread: Original Star Wars producer explains what went wrong after Empire Strikes Back
Thread Tools Display Modes
Post a new thread. Add a reply to this thread. Indicate all threads in this forum as read. Subscribe to this forum. RSS feed: this forum RSS feed: all forums
Old 08-12-2010, 10:42 PM   #1
Titanius Anglesmith
Kingslayer
 
Titanius Anglesmith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,459
Original Star Wars producer explains what went wrong after Empire Strikes Back

http://io9.com/5611489/original-star...e-strikes-back

A dark Return of the Jedi? I'd love see the original outline in its entirety.


Titanius Anglesmith is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 08-12-2010, 11:12 PM   #2
Litofsky
Galaxial
 
Litofsky's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,546
Nice find. Personal favorite part:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Article
Kurtz also explains how Return Of The Jedi would have ended originally, in the outline that Lucas and he had come up with before Lucas decided to change everything to make it more of an upbeat toy-selling vehicle. Luke and Leia would have rescued Han Solo from Jabba the Hutt, but then Han would have died halfway through the film, during a raid on an Imperial base. (This is something that Harrison Ford has mentioned before as well.) The film would have ended with the rebel forces in tatters, Leia struggling with her new duties as queen, and Luke walking off into the sunset alone, like Clint Eastwood at the end of a spaghetti Western. It would have been a more nuanced, muted ending to the saga, instead of the Ewoks dancing in the forest like a "teddy-bear luau." (Not sure if that phrase is from the Times' Geoff Boucher or Kurtz, but it's hilarious.)
Personally, I wonder how that would have affected many childhoods (my own included): Star Wars was one of the first major sagas that I saw that depicted Good vs. Evil, and the inevitable triumph of Good. With truth, I'm not sure if Star Wars would have been viewed in the same light at all if the ending had been different.

I doubt that Lucas would have completely caved to an ending that... somber, but it would be interesting to have an ending different than "It's a trap!" and "Fuzzy teddy bear to the rescue!"
Litofsky is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 08-13-2010, 12:07 PM   #3
Lynk Former
internet hate machine
 
Lynk Former's Avatar
 
Status: Administrator
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Australia
Posts: 18,993
10 year veteran! The Walking Carpets Guild Officer Imperialist Meatbags Guild Officer LF Jester 
Man... that would've been so awesome... I want to see that movie.

Lynk Former is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 08-13-2010, 12:14 PM   #4
Ping
Elementary.
 
Ping's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 789
Roleplayer 
Quite honestly, that sounds more like a downer ending.


"There is no such thing as coincidence, only inevitability" - xxxHoLiC

"Justice? But I don't serve justice, Watson, I serve the truth." - Sherlock Holmes
Ping is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 08-13-2010, 12:21 PM   #5
mimartin
TOR ate my KotOR
 
mimartin's Avatar
 
Status: Super Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Texas
Posts: 6,064
Current Game: TOR/FO:NV
Imperialist Meatbags Guild Officer The Walking Carpets Guild Officer Alderaan News Holopics contributor 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynk Former View Post
Man... that would've been so awesome... I want to see that movie.
I donít. Perhaps if Kurtz would have stayed on there would have been more of a compromise with better results. However, Iím not really sure how ending the saga with the rebellion in tatters would have been received unless the saga was to be continued. I actually like that good defeated evil, may have enjoyed it better had it been done in a more believable fashion. Perhaps together they could have accomplished that. We will never know so, to me, it isnít something worth worrying about.


mimartin is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 08-13-2010, 12:34 PM   #6
Astrotoy7
A Face from The Past
 
Astrotoy7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 10,284
Notable contributor Helpful! Folder extraordinaire LFN Staff Member 
Just because it was discussed doesn't mean it was going to happen. In many interviews, including those you see that came with the DVD releases, Lucas seemed quite committed to making the OT follow the three act paradigm

Act 1: Set Up : Introduce characters and premise
Act 2: Confrontation : Get character into difficult situation
Act 3: Resolution: Characters extricate themselves from situation displaying their inherent virtues

We all know the Ewoks were meant to be wookiees at one stage and that this was changed, most likely due to logistical reasons. I also think Lucas likes is quite big on the concept of showing how humble characters(and creatures) can achieve great things if they work in team. There are many obvious parallels to American War of Independence in particular, which have been discussed by numerous authors and interviewers.

Watching ROTJ at age 10 or so, I didn't mind the happy ending. I thought it was fitting and uplifting. Looking at it in a jaded way or overly critical is something that only happens when you become an teen>adult

mtfbwya


Asinus asinum fricat
Astrotoy7 is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 08-13-2010, 12:45 PM   #7
Lynk Former
internet hate machine
 
Lynk Former's Avatar
 
Status: Administrator
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Australia
Posts: 18,993
10 year veteran! The Walking Carpets Guild Officer Imperialist Meatbags Guild Officer LF Jester 
@ mim: I don't mean I would want that RotJ to replace the one we got in the end... What I mean is that I'd like to see it as a "what if" situation.

Lynk Former is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 08-13-2010, 12:47 PM   #8
mimartin
TOR ate my KotOR
 
mimartin's Avatar
 
Status: Super Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Texas
Posts: 6,064
Current Game: TOR/FO:NV
Imperialist Meatbags Guild Officer The Walking Carpets Guild Officer Alderaan News Holopics contributor 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynk Former View Post
@ mim: I don't mean I would want that RotJ to replace the one we got in the end... What I mean is that I'd like to see it as a "what if" situation.
That would be nice. I would like to see the third option too, the one where they would have worked together, but in the end I'll keep the RotJ, Ewoks and all.


mimartin is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 08-13-2010, 12:58 PM   #9
Lynk Former
internet hate machine
 
Lynk Former's Avatar
 
Status: Administrator
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Australia
Posts: 18,993
10 year veteran! The Walking Carpets Guild Officer Imperialist Meatbags Guild Officer LF Jester 
You accept the Ewoks... but which Jabba's Palace song do you accept? The one filmed originally or the Special Edition one? XD

Lynk Former is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 08-13-2010, 01:09 PM   #10
Pho3nix
#rekt
 
Pho3nix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Nordic Europe
Posts: 3,380
10 year veteran! 
I always liked the happy ending

Pho3nix is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 08-13-2010, 06:00 PM   #11
Titanius Anglesmith
Kingslayer
 
Titanius Anglesmith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,459
Quote:
Originally Posted by Astrotoy7 View Post
Just because it was discussed doesn't mean it was going to happen. In many interviews, including those you see that came with the DVD releases, Lucas seemed quite committed to making the OT follow the three act paradigm
Being a trilogy and having a happy ending isn't what I have a problem with. I have no doubt in my mind that if this guy had stayed on, they would have focused more on the story and not what would have the most appeal to kids and sell the most toys (aka, no Jabba's palace dancing, and no ewoks).


Titanius Anglesmith is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 08-13-2010, 06:16 PM   #12
Ctrl Alt Del
Uncreative User
 
Ctrl Alt Del's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
Posts: 3,814
Current Game: Dishonored
Forum Veteran 
Did you guys read the comments there?
Quote:
As Thursday is the new Friday, it has become exaggeratedly popular in hipster-geek (geekster?) circles to begin the Star Wars hate at ROTJ rather than the Phantom Menace with the charge that the Ewoks "ruined" it. No. They didn't.

Whether you like the Ewoks or not the charge that they "ruined" the film implies that the rest of the film suffered, i.e. was bad, because of them. Let's consider "the rest of the film:"

Ian McDiarmid's performance as Palpatine, Vader's redemption, the Luke's final confrontation with the Dark side, the gold bikini, Admiral Akbar, the forest speeder chase, Jabba's court, the weird-ass monsters (Rancor, Sarlacc) the death of Yoda and the completion of Luke's training . . . and Boba Fett dies ignobly (which I guess is a strike against it, waah.)

I'm sorry, but even if you don't like the ewoks, ROTJ was all in all good, and a satisfying ending to the trilogy. It's understandable if viewers are frustrated by one bad element sticking out like a sore thumb against a backdrop of otherwise good. But whether that "ruins" a film depends, to an extent, on you. For example Keanu Reeve's crap acting ruined "The Matrix" for me way more than Wicket ruined ROTJ.

Let's look at "Phantom Menace" by comparison. Did Jar-Jar Binks ruin it? No, and for the opposite reason. Saying that he did would imply that the rest of the film was otherwise good and his badness seeped in to every scene such to ruin it. Of course that's not true. The intolerability of JJB merely added insult to the injury that was a movie that was pure suck at every turn. JJB didn't ruin episode one because the rest of the film was beyond redemption, and the ewoks didn't ruin ROTJ because the rest of the film was perfectly fine.

Lastly, let's consider the ewoks themselves as a source of bad. Clear marketing ploy? Yeah. Teddy Bear Luau? Sigh. But they were still more bad-ass than just about every moment of the prequels. First off they were "alien" enough not to speak English. "Nub nub." Wicket was about to stab Leia in the face with his spear had she not bribed him not to with food, they were going to roast Luke and Han alive and feast on their flesh while using golden scraps of C-3PO' as Life-Day ornaments . . were it not for some mind-manipulation on Luke's part. Is it unrealistic to see them go against, successfully, the imperial army? Sure, but at least we saw them mowed down and stepped on en masse, it's clear that the rebels were helping them out, and the previous two films make it pretty clear that stormtroopers are either drunk at the job or plain incompetent when they're not filing rank behind Vader. Do did the Ewoks suck? Sure, kinda. But I still call bul**** on all you "purists" who think it all ends with "Empire Strikes Back."
Ditto.

Anyway, a darker ending? ESB had that, thank you, and I feel ROTJ was due to bring some happier storyline back, something we did not see since ANH. Nevertheless, how interesting would it be if Lando did crash the Falcon on the New Death Star core to destroy it?


Inspiration

.Bioshock inspiration.
Ctrl Alt Del is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 08-13-2010, 08:13 PM   #13
JediAthos
Senior Member
 
JediAthos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,438
Current Game: Defiance
Forum Veteran Contest winner - Fan Fiction 
I agree with the above mentioned comment. I know I'm in the minority given the number of people that say "zomg ESB is the bestest" but ROTJ is my favorite of the trilogy for the very reasons Ctrl Alt Del's quoted comment mentions. I like it the ways it is...Ewoks and all.

Don't get me wrong...I wouldn't want to see Ewoks anywhere near the franchise ever again...but I wouldn't want to change ROTJ.


"You'll find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view."

JediAthos is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 08-14-2010, 05:01 AM   #14
Titanius Anglesmith
Kingslayer
 
Titanius Anglesmith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,459
Of course Ewoks didn't ruin the movie. RotJ is great, but would it have been better with Wookiees? I sure think so.


Titanius Anglesmith is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 08-14-2010, 05:15 AM   #15
Bob Lion54
Jr. Malkavian Detective
 
Bob Lion54's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: On the case! Both my minds!
Posts: 2,105
Forum Veteran Helpful! 
I liked the Ewoks...

Seriously, what's with the sudden Ewok hate? You know you liked them until it was cool not to. I call shenanigans!

Yea, I don't care. Ewoks rocked.


Bob Lion54 is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 08-14-2010, 06:52 AM   #16
DarthParametric
I bent my Wookiee
 
DarthParametric's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Oz
Posts: 2,724
10 year veteran! Forum Veteran Helpful! 
Kurtz has kind of changed his tune a bit on that. Back around when TPM first came out and he was decrying it, he said the parting of the ways after ESB was due to Temple of Doom where Lucas hit on the idea that movies don't need much of a plot, all they need is lots of flashy special effects and people, the moronic drooling slobs that we are, are happy. Kurtz disagreed and walked away. The Prequels (and the SE revisionism) are the ultimate manifestation of that new Lucas philosophy.

As far as ROTJ goes, I think it gets a lot of undeserved flak. I think it has the best space battle scenes out of any of the 6 movies (and arguably in all of sci-fi). As a young 'un, it was my favourite of the OT. It was the only one I saw at release (at a drive-in), being 7 at the time. I loved the opening Hoth battle in ESB, but was bored to death by the rest of it. It wasn't until I got a bit older that I could really appreciate ESB.
DarthParametric is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 08-14-2010, 03:08 PM   #17
mstr kenobi
Rookie
 
mstr kenobi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Rio de Janeiro, Brasil
Posts: 165
Over the years i've heard a lot of things about how Kurtz wanted ROTJ to be... No Vader redemption, love triangle (Luke and Leia not siblings) and all that.
Good to finally hear something from the horses mouth.

Anyway, as an adult i find that the Ewoks are a low point in the OT, they're shoved in the middle of an otherwise pretty serious movie, so it looks out of place.

The death of Han would bring aditional drama to the movie, and if he died doing something heroic, it would've been great for his character arc.

Luke walking into the sunset would show that even with all the great things he did, being a hero, his journey is just begining, and that the life of a Jedi is tough and lonely. That would've been great imo.

Don't see the point of the Leia thing however.
Do we really need a "maybe we were better of with the empire moment", something to make all that fighting pointless???? All that and nothing changes??? We are just as corrupt now as before... Really bad idea!!!

Glad to see that he talking positively (somewhat) about the prequels, for all the nitpicking i still like them.
mstr kenobi is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Old 08-15-2010, 12:03 AM   #18
Astrotoy7
A Face from The Past
 
Astrotoy7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 10,284
Notable contributor Helpful! Folder extraordinaire LFN Staff Member 
I think reading Gary Kurtz entry on imdb.com sums up why he is doing crap like this.

At one time he was rolling with the Coppola, Lucas, Spielberg - now he is very much on the fringe, with nothing truly noteworthy in a very long time.

He is most likely doing this to promote his ball of bitterness pretending to be a documentary The People vs George Lucas(2010)

Kurtz needs to concentrate on his talents and his career before slagging off anyone else.

mtfbwya


Asinus asinum fricat
Astrotoy7 is offline   you may: quote & reply,
Post a new thread. Add a reply to this thread. Indicate all threads in this forum as read. Subscribe to this forum. RSS feed: this forum RSS feed: all forums
Go Back   LucasForums > Network > Knights of the Old Republic > Community > Ahto Spaceport Cantina > Original Star Wars producer explains what went wrong after Empire Strikes Back

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:17 PM.

LFNetwork, LLC ©2002-2011 - All rights reserved.
Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.