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Old 11-20-2010, 11:29 PM   #41
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Many people had given up hope over KotOR III, it's just that TOR's existence looks like BioWare and LucasArts gleefully pissing all over the first two games. Think if RotJ was canned and Lucas released the Prequel movies early instead.


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Old 11-20-2010, 11:57 PM   #42
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I think the main 3 reasons for all the MMO hate:
1) sort of tweaks the existing fanbase community (I notice modders in general seem to not look favorably upon it)
2) MMOs cost money on a monthly basis and you can't just fully own the thing to play and review at any time you want with no more strings.
3) the gamble of it all, that unless it goes big it will land on its face; it leaves a bit of a blemish for its respective franchise.

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or like Portal 2 (Likewise) that has a single player game, but also has a separate, multiplayer "attachment" that you don't have to touch if you don't want to. But from the news I've read, you could play the game almost entirely on your own, but you'd need friends and/or other people for certain parts, at least once for the main quest.
Curious.
I've heard of people going rather extensively into it and since GMOD is around...is it not possible to essentially create your own game on this engine? Sure it's probably complicated as hell. All I have done with older versions is make some stupid pictures for a webcomic...that got lost in the abyss once that server went down. But I digress: in essence is it not possible to create your own...playable thing with it? Isn't that essentially how TF2 started? As a mod?

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I have this personal dislike of MMOs, I'm not sure where it roots, but its there, and it gnaws at me when I see a spinoff game that is an MMO, that makes me want to buy it because its of that same franchise, but at the same time not want to because its an MMO.
I think this explains most peoples' thoughts and feelings on the matter. Well, most people here anyway. That and what saberz said too.

I wasn't too happy they abandoned K3, that's my main gripe.

I'm curious in general about the MMO and gauging peoples' minds and opinions on it since I never (appreciably) played one for any real length of time. Used to be totally against a SW MMO for this era, if only because SWG was supposedly such a flop and of all the complaints about MMOs I hear in general.

I kinda don't care either way anymore, if only for hope that this MMO might actually take off into something big and promising for SW as a whole. I have my doubts.


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Old 11-21-2010, 12:42 AM   #43
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I mistyped on what I meant in my last post that GTASW quoted, I've edited that part

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I've heard of people going rather extensively into it and since GMOD is around...is it not possible to essentially create your own game on this engine? Sure it's probably complicated as hell. All I have done with older versions is make some stupid pictures for a webcomic...that got lost in the abyss once that server went down. But I digress: in essence is it not possible to create your own...playable thing with it? Isn't that essentially how TF2 started? As a mod?
People have been making entirely new games, or expansions, using the source engine, but not via GMod, as that is only a sandbox editor. You can make interesting stuff, like for a movie (there is a full length gmod movie out there somewhere, based off of War of the Worlds IIRC), but after that its usefulness ends. You could get the Source Engine devkit and make your own levels, and that could eventually lead into creating your own games. The two big "modding" engines I can think of are the Unreal and the Source; both are fairly higher-end graphics and physics, without sacrificing that much power. In fact, as a little side project, me and some friends are working on a video game completely from scratch, only pre-made would be the Unreal Engine.

Although, I have ask; what does this have to do with TOR? Source engine and TF2 and gmod have pretty much no bearing on TOR, aside from TOR's graphics reminding me of TF2's.
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Old 11-21-2010, 12:59 AM   #44
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I thought this is what practically every Star Wars game does.
While KotOR did that, KotOR II steered cleared of that mentality. Besides, even KotOR was forgivable compared to how blatantly TOR resembles the OT.

It's understandable that they want fans to recognize Star Wars icons, but then choosing to set it in the KotOR era, and even using the KotOR branding is just proving that you want to make money off of KotOR fans, since the game absolutely disregards everything that happened in the KotOR games, and then claims to be 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9.


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Old 11-21-2010, 02:37 AM   #45
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Isn't it set 300 years or so after KotOR?... and from vids I've watched of the making of the game, they're not disregarding KotOR at all. It's just that the events of KotOR were hundreds of years into the past. There's apparently quite a few quests that relate back to the KotOR games in TOR...

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Old 11-21-2010, 04:29 AM   #46
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Yeah, quests like "Once upon a time there was a dude called *insert KotOR NPC* who left behind this armour - go fetch it for me."

Setting the game 300 years after KotOR is disregarding KotOR. It's like if you made RotJ set 500 years in the future with a whole new cast and a roll that says "Oh that one guy named Vader died, he isn't important - BUT LOOK AT THE NEW THREAT111!!!"


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Old 11-21-2010, 06:22 AM   #47
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Actually it's more like "Once upon a time there was a Dark Lord of the Sith known as 'Revan' who left behind many secrets..."

As for it's setting... having it 300 years later is a lot better than setting it a year or so after KotOR II... I mean, by the way some people are reacting, if this was set straight in the middle of when KotOR occurred then there'd be even more rage going on.

At least this way you can all hold onto a shred of hope that KotOR III may exist in the future. And yes, I realise that the project was cancelled and that LA and BW said whatever... but companies always change their minds about stuff... like the did with KotOR III initially XD lol.

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Old 11-21-2010, 06:33 AM   #48
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Again... what's with all the TOR hate? (I'm starting to wonder if anyone will actually answer my question...)
I think a certain portion of the hate (at least here on LF) comes not so much from the fact that TOR is an MMO, but that it's Bioware making it not Obsidian.

Personally, I'm not too keen on TOR. I would have much preferred a SP RPG, but if it had to be an MMO then I would have liked something a lot better than what it looks like we are going to get. In particular, the space content with it's "casual friendly" on-rails shooting looks uber lame. I was really hoping for something along the lines of JTL from SWG, as that was by far the best part of that IMO. The rest of TOR looks to be just like any other yawn-inducing MMO grindfest. Sure there's the whole VO thing and all, but I really don't see that magically improving the usual "go and kill 20 wamp rats and bring me their tails" MMO quest fare. The whole "cinematic experience" BS that is driving game development these days annoys the hell out of me.
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Old 11-21-2010, 06:50 AM   #49
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Actually it's more like "Once upon a time there was a Dark Lord of the Sith known as 'Revan' who left behind many secrets..."
But the KotOR series was about Revan in the first place. It was about the choices he made affecting the galaxy. The third KotOR was expected to follow that, and reveal the fate of Revan, or seal it altogether. Instead, now it's left ignored because it won't be very marketable to a new audience.

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As for it's setting... having it 300 years later is a lot better than setting it a year or so after KotOR II... I mean, by the way some people are reacting, if this was set straight in the middle of when KotOR occurred then there'd be even more rage going on.
How is that?

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At least this way you can all hold onto a shred of hope that KotOR III may exist in the future. And yes, I realise that the project was cancelled and that LA and BW said whatever... but companies always change their minds about stuff... like the did with KotOR III initially XD lol.
Well yes... at least so long as they don't actually announce the game, we can hold onto a shred of hope that they will announce it.


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Old 11-21-2010, 07:08 AM   #50
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@ DarthParametric: I don't quite understand why BioWare and not Obsidian making TOR would cause such hate... hmmm.

Again, how do you know this? Have you played the game to know for sure? I mean, I understand that people don't like what they see so far, but I can't understand how people are so sure about a game that they've never even really played themselves.


@ Sabre: Actually the fate of Revan isn't being ignored in TOR from what I've seen.,, It's just not the main focus. And the reason why TOR is better off 300 years later than a year later is because LA seems to want to push this as an MMO and not something that will be the way the KotOR series traditionally is. So if TOR was set with the KotOR timeline, I'm sure a lot more people would get pissed off over the whole gameplay change into an MMO framework... which people obviously don't like very much to begin with.

Actually I meant that since they haven't gone with the option of making TOR set within the KotOR timeframe, there's still a shred of hope that KotOR III will still exist some time in the future as a true sequel.





I hated the fact that KotOR III was cancelled in favour of TOR at first... but I think I'm coming around to the idea of TOR more and more and have decided that I'm gonna get into it.

Also, Sabre, your opinion doesn't count because you don't pay for your games lulz. I kid, I kid.

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Old 11-21-2010, 07:26 AM   #51
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I don't quite understand why BioWare and not Obsidian making TOR would cause such hate... hmmm.
Yes, I could see how you could miss the rampant Obsidian fanboyism here. It's very subtle.

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Again, how do you know this? Have you played the game to know for sure? I mean, I understand that people don't like what they see so far, but I can't understand how people are so sure about a game that they've never even really played themselves.
Have I played the game? No, obviously not. However, I have played various MMOs over the years and I have seen enough from the gameplay footage that has been released so far to ascertain that TOR isn't doing anything revolutionary in the genre. Therefore, it is fairly straightforward to extrapolate whether or not I will like the game. As an example, say you hated action movies. You wouldn't need to see them to know ahead of time that you are probably not going to like most of the Governator's movies. Or, for a game example, if you hated platformers it would be a fair guess to say watching a video of Super Mario Bros would be enough to convince you not to bother playing it.
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Old 11-21-2010, 07:34 AM   #52
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So Sabre, if you were to design the game or specifically the quests, how would you make them in tune with KotOR?

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Old 11-21-2010, 07:36 AM   #53
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Again, how do you know this? Have you played the game to know for sure? I mean, I understand that people don't like what they see so far, but I can't understand how people are so sure about a game that they've never even really played themselves.
Wouldn't the world be a much better place if they had real try-before-you-buy systems in place? There used to be something they called a demo back in the day...

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And the reason why TOR is better off 300 years later than a year later is because LA seems to want to push this as an MMO and not something that will be the way the KotOR series traditionally is. So if TOR was set with the KotOR timeline, I'm sure a lot more people would get pissed off over the whole gameplay change into an MMO framework... which people obviously don't like very much to begin with.
At least then it would make sense to retain the Old Republic branding. What they're doing here is essentially make a whole new game, with new characters, a new story with some loose connection to KotOR and title it The Old Republic to attract KotOR fans.

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So Sabre, if you were to design the game or specifically the quests, how would you make them in tune with KotOR?
I wouldn't set it 300 years in the future, for one. Setting it in the immediate aftermath of the Jedi Civil War would be a good idea, and would allow for expansion in the canon of that period while leaving it largely unaffected. KotOR II for example, regularly emphasized how the people and the Republic in general became disillusioned with the Jedi. This could make for a great setting within an MMO, because you'd be blurring the lines between the roles of the Jedi (and their history with the Republic), and the Sith who are up for something of a new world order. At the same time, the protagonist (and co.) would be tasked by either side to scout the Unknown Regions, discover Revan and his intentions, and his reasons for escaping the galaxy when it most needed him.



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Old 11-21-2010, 07:41 AM   #54
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Quote:
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Yes, I could see how you could miss the rampant Obsidian fanboyism here. It's very subtle.
Lulz, I'm aware of it lightly to be honest but I've never been caught in the middle of it.


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Have I played the game? No, obviously not. However, I have played various MMOs over the years and I have seen enough from the gameplay footage that has been released so far to ascertain that TOR isn't doing anything revolutionary in the genre. Therefore, it is fairly straightforward to extrapolate whether or not I will like the game. As an example, say you hated action movies. You wouldn't need to see them to know ahead of time that you are probably not going to like most of the Governator's movies. Or, for a game example, if you hated platformers it would be a fair guess to say watching a video of Super Mario Bros would be enough to convince you not to bother playing it.
Doesn't work that way for me... the only game I've ever hated in my entire life is Metroid: Other M and if I don't go and see a movie or play a game, it's because it's not high on my priority list of things to watch/play... I like to try everything... but I do get what you're saying, I used to be that way too until I realised that that mentality just meant that I would never have discovered a lot of the stuff I have now that I'll try before I make a final judgement.



@ Sabre: What should they have called it then?

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Old 11-21-2010, 07:55 AM   #55
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if I don't go and see a movie or play a game, it's because it's not high on my priority list of things to watch/play
For you to be able to prioritise games and movies in that manner, you obviously have at least some preconceptions based on prior experiences and such. Otherwise, all games/movies would be weighted equally until you experienced them firsthand, no? For myself, as Mr Burns once said, I know what I hate. After 3 and a half decades, I have enough experience to confidently make judgement calls on certain things.

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Wouldn't the world be a much better place if they had real try-before-you-buy systems in place? There used to be something they called a demo back in the day...
MMOs have exactly that. By this time next year there will almost certainly be a 1-2 week free trial of TOR. Every subscription-based MMO I have ever actually subscribed to (albeit briefly) was as a result of one of these demos. As an added bonus, waiting 6-8 months after release to play the game means they might have actually patched enough of the bugs to make it playable.
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Old 11-21-2010, 08:03 AM   #56
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@ DarthParametric: The way I go about it is that I prioritise what I'll play/watch with the understanding that there's physically no way that I'll be able to play/watch it all. So while there's stuff that I'll want to experience as soon as it comes out, there's stuff I can wait for.

I know what I hate too... it's just that there's few things I really hate. I hate Metroid: Other M... and I hate *thinks* I can't think of another example at the moment. There's stuiff I didn't really like but it's not like every other movie or game that could possibly be related to that one movie or game that I didn't quite like will be a carbon copy of it... that's why I tend to give stuff a chance.

So yeah, in short all movies/games aren't weighted equally since there are some things that I want more than other things... there's just nothing I can say DO NOT WANT... well, maybe rape porn... I don't want that. *looks around*

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Old 11-21-2010, 08:05 AM   #57
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@ Sabre: What should they have called it then?
World of Star Wars?


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Old 11-21-2010, 08:10 AM   #58
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XD @ sabre


It would be nice if KotOR III was coming out... it'd also be nice if Battlefront III was announced... and Star Wars: Pod Racer... and a new X-Wing... and another Jedi Knight... oh and I wouldn't mind another Republic Commando if they improved on the concept... What else am I missing?...

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Old 11-21-2010, 09:19 AM   #59
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This guy would have them make a Force Unleashed III...

>__>


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Old 11-21-2010, 09:57 AM   #60
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Old 11-21-2010, 12:42 PM   #61
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Topic=LucasArts Layoff, not TOR. Time to return to the topic, folks. Thank you.


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Old 11-21-2010, 05:53 PM   #62
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@ topic: I can only hope that less people in the employ will lead to a more efficient and effective LA in the long run. (effectiveness meaning creative direction that doesn't end up on the cutting floor to be swept away)
Unfortunately I find the "effectiveness" part highly unlikely if it's true they laid off the creative folks who make the games what they are--what their fans actually like.

IMO Seems more like these are cutbacks that cut in for necessity as opposed to merely "trimming the fat" w.r.t. "streamlining their company and [re]attaining optimum." Or some such corporate office-speak we've heard thousands of times.

BTW someone recently here in ahto was puzzled by some phrase used in corporate-speak. May I recommend a book? I think you'll find it most enlightening!

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People have been making entirely new games, or expansions, using the source engine, but not via GMod, as that is only a sandbox editor. <snip>but after that its usefulness ends. You could get the Source Engine devkit and make your own levels, and that could eventually lead into creating your own games. *brevity*.

Although, I have ask; what does this have to do with TOR? Source engine and TF2 and gmod have pretty much no bearing on TOR, aside from TOR's graphics reminding me of TF2's.
It's just that you were bemoaning TOR and presumably are one of the "K3 now!" crowd. When you spoke of addons or expansions I felt a need to prod you with that (as opposed to prodding you with a tazer! ). Figured you might have been implying or hinting at that.

But yea that's what I thought (despite my lack of experience with it), GMOD was of limited use. You'd would need a devkit for just about anything. Adding a multiplayer to one engine (like K1 & 2) isn't the same as for all engines ...though there was one for GTA vice city, perhaps you've heard of M(ulti)TA Vice City? Should be on YT.


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