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Old 03-12-2012, 01:44 PM   #1201
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EDIT: @ Taak Farst

I don't know if I agree with this entirely.

I'm finding Shep's interactions with EDI to contain quite a bit of context, now that I can see it for what it is.

Show spoiler


It's not perfect. It does have some holes. But upon further reflection, I don't think it's nearly as terrible as I initially thought it was.

Last edited by Achilles; 03-12-2012 at 01:54 PM.
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Old 03-12-2012, 02:25 PM   #1202
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@ logan23:
What did protesting against video game makers ever get anyone?

Hate to sound harsh, but you've got to pull you head out of the clouds regarding the "ending fix". It is what it is and, unfortunately, it will not change.

@ Achilles:
I still don't buy it. Because then...

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Old 03-12-2012, 02:36 PM   #1203
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It could be that this precisely the moral of the story and you just don't like it
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Old 03-12-2012, 02:41 PM   #1204
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Hessian View Post
you've got to pull you head out of the clouds regarding the "ending fix".
Agreed. The notion that they will change the ending borders on delusional. Even if it were 100,000 people complaining on the forums, that's less than 3% of the sales in the first week alone. They couldn't give a toss whether you liked the ending or not. All you're going to get out of them is some PR statement rambling on about "artistic vision" or some such crap. The endings suck yes, but that's what we got. Vent by all means, but accept that it isn't going to change and move on with your life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles View Post
I don't think it's nearly as terrible as I initially thought it was.
The problem with the ending is not so much in the concepts of the ends themselves (although it was a pretty piss-poor selection), but the manner in which they were presented. The real issue is ultimately a lack of proper closure, both for the galaxy as a whole and more importantly for the personal story of our particular Shepard. At the end you are left in limbo, having no idea how things turned out. The game ends in the most basic definition of the term - it stops. There is no finale.

Last edited by DarthParametric; 03-12-2012 at 02:49 PM.
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Old 03-12-2012, 02:50 PM   #1205
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I felt they were pretty clear in the ending that I got. *shrugs*
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Old 03-12-2012, 02:58 PM   #1206
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You know what happened to all your squad members? ME2 squad members? Wrex? Earth? Palaven? Thessia? Rannoch? Tuchanka? Sur'Kesh? All the races thereof? I don't remember there being much detail about any of that.
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Old 03-12-2012, 03:02 PM   #1207
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Was it spelled out in crayon and spoon-fed to me? No.

I think I would have been insulted if they tried.

EDIT:
Show spoiler


EDIT 2: What "closure" looked like in my game:
Show spoiler

Last edited by Achilles; 03-12-2012 at 04:13 PM.
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Old 03-12-2012, 10:38 PM   #1208
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You don't need to be spoonfed for there to be decent closure.
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Old 03-12-2012, 11:10 PM   #1209
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So, other than the craptastic ending, this is a good game, right?


"They should rename the team to the Washington Government Sucks. Put Obama on the helmet. Line the entire walls of the stadium with the actual text of the ACA.
Fix their home team score on the board to the debt clock, they can win every game 17,000,000,000,000 to 24. Losing team gets taxed by the IRS 100%, then droned."
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Old 03-12-2012, 11:30 PM   #1210
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Yeah, as I said earlier there is lots of good stuff in the rest of the game. At least if you are carrying over an ME1/2 save anyway. Despite Bioware constantly drivelling on about what a great entry point this would be, I'm not sure what someone new to the series would get out of it.
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Old 03-12-2012, 11:46 PM   #1211
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Yes 98 percent of the game is great ... The ending is horrible.

Actually there are now articles in Forbes and a few other sites that are actually seeing there is an issue with the ending.

Yes they have our money from first wave of sales but they want to sell dlc and grow the IP. Bioware will see a drop in the dlc and lose money because people won't replay the game since there is no point. The IP is damaged and they need to look at the business side. They need a healthy IP. These lets say 100,000 fans are the same ones who would be buying the dlc more then the casual player who has gone on to the next big game.

I hate to say that after playing it once that I don't plan to playthrough again... But atleast the multiplayer is fun.... What they?! I should not be saying to myself hey at least the multiplayer is good... I should be saying how this was a great way the trilogy came together at the end ....but it didnt.

As a designer I see do many issues with the ending just on the game mechanic level.

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Old 03-13-2012, 12:17 AM   #1212
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Nothing is going to change. As I said before, the people complaining are a mere drop in the ocean - they don't care if you walk away and never buy another of their games. In fact I think they'd be quite happy to see the back of most people on the official forums (which, to be fair, is not completely unwarranted given some of its denizens). They'll produce a heap of DLC and people will buy it in droves, so they'll have all the justification they need to keep doing what they are doing.
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Old 03-13-2012, 12:28 AM   #1213
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Hey, DarthParametric,

Could you please make a ME3 Choices Spreadsheet? It would be really easy, because you'd only have to put 3 choices on it. :P
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Old 03-13-2012, 01:14 AM   #1214
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Unless the media jumps into this, like people asking the mass effect table of developers and producers at PAX this April.

I agree that they might not change the ending but the bad blood will poison the mass effect IP. I have not heard one person I know in person who said I love the ending!

It's either it's huff ...apathy or omg what happen I'm confused what did they do this is horrible.

Like you said the fans might not be the game changer but the media might embrace them.

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Old 03-13-2012, 01:27 AM   #1215
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OK I finished. And... I have no idea what to think. Maybe I'm just a bit drunk, but I kind of like the endings, even if

Show spoiler


I guess what I'm trying to say is that drinking wine greatly improves the ending.
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Old 03-13-2012, 01:33 AM   #1216
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Quote:
Originally Posted by logan23 View Post
Unless the media jumps into this
The media are siding with Bioware for the most part. Leaving aside the unwarranted derisive tone most articles are written in, they do have a point about entitlement, at least to a degree anyway. People demanding new/replacement endings is nonsensical.

The thing you have to remember is the people complaining about it aren't the target audience. Bioware know from long experience that their long-time fans bitch and moan and stamp their feet about every little thing, yet when push comes to shove they greedily gobble up whatever steaming pile of crap gets served up to them. The reason they stripped out the inventory in ME2 and added the action mode and merged everything into a single Awesome Button™ in ME3 was because they were chasing the console shooter demographic. That's really who the game is for (hence all the "great entry point" stuff). That group isn't going to care that the end is crap. Hell, half of them probably only got it for the multiplayer anyway and will never even touch SP, let alone see the ending. And for those that do, what is there to complain about? If you have no investment in the series then the ending is really meaningless. You just shrug, toss it in the pile and move onto the next game.
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Old 03-13-2012, 02:48 AM   #1217
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I just wish people would stop trying to make The Matrix of worse... Evangelion style endings for stuff. Sometimes all you really need is something a little more clear cut and in Mass Effects case, something that actually made you feel like the choices you made amounted to something in that very last moment.

There were quite a few parts during the middle of the game where you felt this... and it felt great! So why not the ending? DLC probably.

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Old 03-13-2012, 03:50 AM   #1218
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Lynk, did you notice the brief mention Oz gets?
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Old 03-13-2012, 03:53 AM   #1219
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Australia always gets just a brief mention in everything XD

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Old 03-13-2012, 04:00 AM   #1220
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I thought it was an interesting choice of mention though. Adelaide, of all places. You would think they would go with Sydney or Melbourne.
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Old 03-13-2012, 10:01 AM   #1221
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Adelaide is the logical choice for BioWare, considering Austin, Texas has grown to be a pretty big hub for BioWare, Adelaide is Austin's sister city.

I remember in the 1980's the news networks even swapped desk reporters once a year for a week. About the only week I watched the news when i was in college.

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Old 03-13-2012, 10:12 AM   #1222
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Ah, makes sense. Though you'd think they would refrain from wiping out their sister city.
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Old 03-13-2012, 11:58 AM   #1223
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I finished last night around 1:30 am here. First I want to thank everyone for using spoiler tags in this thread. I knew a lot of you hated the ending, but thanks to you all using the tags, I did not know the reason why. I would also like to thank you all for lowering my expectations for the ending, because I was so worried about how terrible it would be that when I finally got there I found it better than I expected. Up until the final area, I thought Mass Effect blew away two of my favorite games up to this point, Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2. I had pretty much gotten everything and more out of the characters that I have grown to love and hate over the past 4 plus years. I laughed out loud more times than I can count during ME3 and I came close to tears on a number of occasions. A couple of the quests made my all-time favorite video quest “I Remember Me” look like it was from the old “Game Boy.” Had you all not been bitching, my expectations for the ending would have been though the roof based on the endings of different trilogy spanning story lines and I may have been in for a major let down.

Show spoiler


Below was my wild guess about what was going on right before going to on a few missions from the final that I sent to Achilles and stoffe so they could see how wrong I was. Take a look if you want to see how wrong or right I was.

Show spoiler

Last edited by mimartin; 03-13-2012 at 01:22 PM.
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Old 03-13-2012, 01:15 PM   #1224
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mimartin View Post
Show spoiler
They had to tie that off somehow. It reminded me a bit too much of
spoiler:
the movie Contact
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Old 03-13-2012, 02:01 PM   #1225
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Been talking about this in skype, to keep acdcfanbill from poking his eyes out, I will post it here with spoiler tags.

spoiler:
I consider it a "good ending" (good in a paragon way) because Shepard has a chance to end the never ending cycle of war between AI and Organics. Not exactly the unicorns and Lollipop ending many seem to have wanted, but a chance for galactic peace is a happy ending. I would gladly jump into a energy beam and consider I had a good meaningful life if I could guarantee peace for mankind today.

Of course, some of you will remember I thought dying in DA:O was the good and noble ending
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Old 03-13-2012, 02:07 PM   #1226
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Mimartin, If I was being really lenient I would say okay, but it's the fact that not only does
spoiler:
Shepard do what he does, essentially giving in to what he spent years trying to fight, but he also does a more extreme job than the Reapers were aiming to do. Because if the relays blew up, EVERYONE should be dead. Hell, the planet Joker crashes on shouldn't even exist.


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Old 03-13-2012, 02:18 PM   #1227
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Quote:
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Mimartin, If I was being really lenient I would say okay, but it's the fact that not only does
spoiler:
Shepard do what he does, essentially giving in to what he spent years trying to fight, but he also does a more extreme job than the Reapers were aiming to do. Because if the relays blew up, EVERYONE should be dead. Hell, the planet Joker crashes on shouldn't even exist.
That would be the logical conclusion if both of the following premises were true
Show spoiler
I don't think we have good reason to believe that 1 is true and we know (just from the game mechanics) that 2 isn't.
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Old 03-13-2012, 02:19 PM   #1228
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taak Farst View Post
spoiler:
Shepard do what he does, essentially giving in to what he spent years trying to fight, but he also does a more extreme job than the Reapers were aiming to do. Because if the relays blew up, EVERYONE should be dead. Hell, the planet Joker crashes on shouldn't even exist.
Wait...

spoiler:
1. No, my Shepard was fighting to end the cycle. EDI already proved that AI's have freewill. So I don't see how that was a give up. Epilogue also seemed to prove life continued into the distant future.

2. Yes, in the ME2 downloadable content a relay spelled doom for that sector of space, but I would hardly called that a controlled explosion, flying a moon into a Mass Reply. This was more a controlled explosion. Controlled by the citadel which controls the relays in the first place. How do you know the energy isn't just used to destroy the next relay? Where is the last relay in the network? The companion to the Citadel, dark space maybe?
Not saying there are not holes, just saying it isn't as cut and dry as some are letting on.
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Old 03-13-2012, 02:26 PM   #1229
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Which is the whole crux of the problem. The ending is too ambiguous, thus people are unhappy.
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Old 03-13-2012, 02:33 PM   #1230
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I am 99.99% sure that BioWare is NOT going to change the ending, regardless of what we Mass Effect fans think. There are three primary reasons I believe this, as follows:

1) They've already made so much $$$ on the series that they can afford to ignore us.
2) I don't think DLC makes up the majority of game companies' profits, so what will they care if fewer people buy the DLC for ME3? Some gamers will anyway--they are hooked.
3) Making an ending only to retract it a few DLC's later is simply pointless and stupid.
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Old 03-13-2012, 02:35 PM   #1231
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Going to start the game tonight. I hope I end up in your boat mim, not as disappointed because my expectations are lower.

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Old 03-13-2012, 02:37 PM   #1232
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mimartin View Post
spoiler:
2. Yes, in the ME2 downloadable content a relay spelled doom for the 300,000 non-synthesized organic life forms that would have been dependent on there being a mass relay that sector of space for their continued survival, should they go on being non-synthesized organic life forms
Fixed.
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Old 03-13-2012, 02:38 PM   #1233
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Quote:
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Which is the whole crux of the problem. The ending is too ambiguous, thus people are unhappy.
You mean people want to play not think? I thought that was what Shepard was fighting for the right to think for ourselves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MsFicwriter View Post
I am 99.99% sure that BioWare is NOT going to change the ending, regardless of what we Mass Effect fans think. There are three primary reasons I believe this, as follows:

1) They've already made so much $$$ on the series that they can afford to ignore us.
2) I don't think DLC makes up the majority of game companies' profits, so what will they care if fewer people buy the DLC for ME3? Some gamers will anyway--they are hooked.
3) Making an ending only to retract it a few DLC's later is simply pointless and stupid.
4) The ending is fine the way it is.

Last edited by mimartin; 03-13-2012 at 03:02 PM.
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Old 03-13-2012, 03:15 PM   #1234
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There is also the plot wholes and the leap of logic too.

Warning Spoilers in this link-
Why the ending fails, even as a tragedy (Lengthy)
http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/to...ndex/9856805/1


On the game design area:

Show spoiler

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Old 03-13-2012, 03:24 PM   #1235
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@Logan23
spoiler:
Why are you calling the AI a star child? Don't get me wrong I don't like its looks or understand why it looks like that, but you know what it is, it tells you. What do you think it is lying?

I also wonder how Tali got to the Normandy, but then Achilles pointed out they called a retreat just before Shepard enters the portal to the Citadel. I remember hearing it because I thought to myself, Anderson said no retreat.
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Old 03-13-2012, 03:31 PM   #1236
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Quote:
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Show spoiler
I've numbered your points above for tracking.
Show spoiler
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Old 03-13-2012, 03:37 PM   #1237
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The problem with the ending is not so much in the concepts of the ends themselves (although it was a pretty piss-poor selection), but the manner in which they were presented. The real issue is ultimately a lack of proper closure, both for the galaxy as a whole and more importantly for the personal story of our particular Shepard. At the end you are left in limbo, having no idea how things turned out. The game ends in the most basic definition of the term - it stops. There is no finale.
This.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynk Former View Post
I just wish people would stop trying to make The Matrix of worse... Evangelion style endings for stuff. Sometimes all you really need is something a little more clear cut and in Mass Effects case, something that actually made you feel like the choices you made amounted to something in that very last moment.
This.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthParametric View Post
The thing you have to remember is the people complaining about it aren't the target audience. Bioware know from long experience that their long-time fans bitch and moan and stamp their feet about every little thing, yet when push comes to shove they greedily gobble up whatever steaming pile of crap gets served up to them. The reason they stripped out the inventory in ME2 and added the action mode and merged everything into a single Awesome Button™ in ME3 was because they were chasing the console shooter demographic. That's really who the game is for (hence all the "great entry point" stuff). That group isn't going to care that the end is crap. Hell, half of them probably only got it for the multiplayer anyway and will never even touch SP, let alone see the ending. And for those that do, what is there to complain about? If you have no investment in the series then the ending is really meaningless. You just shrug, toss it in the pile and move onto the next game.
And especially this.
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Old 03-13-2012, 03:43 PM   #1238
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Actually This post explains things much better in terms of writing structure.

This is has some spoilers
By Tsantilas at BSN

Show spoiler


orig page/link -spoilers
http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/to.../index/9877164

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Old 03-13-2012, 03:52 PM   #1239
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I have to know...
spoiler:
Why do so many people assume that everyone dies after seeing not one but two scenes showing that they don't?


Oh and...
spoiler:
The write-up above, gets one important fact wrong: Shepard is the Catalyst. The Citadel AI is deus ex machina though. I did find the argumentation amusing: "Wah! None of my choices mattered except in the part where they mattered!!"
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Old 03-13-2012, 04:00 PM   #1240
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Join Date: Dec 2004
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Opinions are like....

You've only pointed out opinions. I've already said the ending isn't what I wanted, but it isn't the end all some are making it out to be. Many of the so called plot holes are explained in game for those that want to actually pay attention to the game. No it isn't in a bowl at the end of the game waiting for the player to absorb it, but it is explained provided you read, listen to squad mates and do the quests in the entire game.

I may have the benefit of looking at my choices throughout the entire trilogy matter, may not have been a huge difference crammed into the last 5 mins, but they matter in the entire story of ME3. I could go into detail, but why bother...OMG the last 5 mins of a 30 hour game stinks.

For those that don't believe Achilles are me, watch the video.

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Been reading the bioware forum, I thought I understood what people were upset about, but I may have been misunderstanding
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Last edited by mimartin; 03-13-2012 at 05:51 PM.
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