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Old 03-21-2012, 10:09 AM   #1401
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It's not a matter of it being difficult to understand. It's a matter of it being a complete logical fallacy.
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Old 03-21-2012, 10:21 AM   #1402
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I wouldn't change the ending, but
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Old 03-21-2012, 11:01 AM   #1403
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It's not a matter of it being difficult to understand. It's a matter of it being a complete logical fallacy.
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Old 03-21-2012, 11:30 AM   #1404
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Edit: Ray Muzyka has released a statement about the endings - http://blog.bioware.com/2012/03/21/4108/

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Old 03-21-2012, 11:58 AM   #1405
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So your major dislike is the AI's logic is flawed
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beyond confused.


I'm betting no matter what they do, people will not be happy, well EA will be happy with the $$$$$.

Only way to make everyone happy is to sell multiple DLC with you pick the ending.
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Old 03-21-2012, 12:15 PM   #1406
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Well I think what DP's problem is, if I might be so bold to presume such because I'm sort of resonating with a lot of what he has been arguing, is that we are forced to accept flawed logic as being "right", "canon", etc..

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Old 03-21-2012, 12:19 PM   #1407
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You do know in life wars are fought over flawed logic, hell most every argument known to man is over flawed logic. Anyone married or that has every been married can testify to that.
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Old 03-21-2012, 12:24 PM   #1408
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No absolutely, but I guess...well, there is no point to just going back and forth, its like twirling a coin over and over trying to decide which side is better. My beef with it is that I expected something less philosophical if there was to be an overall message. I would have been fine with leaving the Reapers as just a mysterious "evil", and Shepard is the organic "good" that lives up to crash them down. Sure, that sort of thing is cliche and its been done many times, but its been done many times because we (speaking generally of course) love to see it. I play games to escape reality, not see them reinforce the harsh reality (flawed logic leads to strife, nothing is perfect, etc...). But again, its personal preference and I don't hate Bioware for choosing to go the route they did.
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Old 03-21-2012, 12:27 PM   #1409
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Other people have used other peoples rants to show their feelings about ME3 ending...

Well this pretty much sums up mine (thanks to Achilles for sharing it with me).
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Old 03-21-2012, 12:44 PM   #1410
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To Mass Effect 3 players, from Dr. Ray Muzyka, co-founder of BioWare

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As co-founder and GM of BioWare, I’m very proud of the ME3 team; I personally believe Mass Effect 3 is the best work we’ve yet created. So, it’s incredibly painful to receive feedback from our core fans that the game’s endings were not up to their expectations. Our first instinct is to defend our work and point to the high ratings offered by critics – but out of respect to our fans, we need to accept the criticism and feedback with humility.....

cont..
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Trust that we are doing our damndest, as always, to address your feedback. As artists, we care about our fans deeply and we appreciate your support.

Thank you for your feedback – we are listening.

Ray

*scrolls to bottom of page... *

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Old 03-21-2012, 12:59 PM   #1411
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Do you think he gets a gold star from the PR department every time he uses the word "art" or some derivation thereof?

The thing I can't get past more than anything else is how they were completely blindsided by the reaction. I mean this thing was played by Bioware's internal QA and non-ME3 team devs, EA's QA teams, MS's QA teams, Sony's QA teams, various media types. Nobody flagged the possibility that the endings might cause more than a bit of "speculation"?
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Old 03-21-2012, 01:21 PM   #1412
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The thing I can't get past more than anything else is how they were completely blindsided by the reaction. I mean this thing was played by Bioware's internal QA and non-ME3 team devs, EA's QA teams, MS's QA teams, Sony's QA teams, various media types. Nobody flagged the possibility that the endings might cause more than a bit of "speculation"?
I, too, wonder this. I mean, that is a lot of people there, and for them to not pick up the issue is stunning.

And the article seemed very carefully worded. It said they are directly going to act on the criticisms but at one point it said they were working on 'many content initiatives'. This, to me, basically says they are giving us a DLC set after ME3 where we get the run down of how the ending affects things exactly. This, while it would usually sound good, still doesn't fill in the gaps/plot holes in the ending, nor does it grant shep-closure/shep romance closure.


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Old 03-21-2012, 01:36 PM   #1413
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So, how specifically would people here have improved the ending.
Personally, I would do one of the following:

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Old 03-21-2012, 02:24 PM   #1414
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Mass Effect was basically a high production B grade style science fiction movie trilogy... and should have ended as such.

Basically what it needed to do was end much in the way Return of the Jedi ended and leave most of what happens afterwards up to our own imaginations... Instead they tried to come up with something that they felt would challenge peoples perceptions and try to get all cyberpunk on us when there really wasn't any need for it at all.

Sure, in real life a lot of things aren't clear cut and people fight for strange ideals and all that kind of jazz. But really, in this type of fiction the only thing you need to feel at the end is "damn, that was one hell of an adventure"...

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Old 03-21-2012, 11:14 PM   #1415
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I, too, wonder this. I mean, that is a lot of people there, and for them to not pick up the issue is stunning.
I think it shows how out of touch they are with their core consumers. Which is ironic given how much they go on and on about listening to their fans. I think they knew their real target market, the console GOW/COD/Halo types, wouldn't really care. Maybe they figured the rest would just happily take whatever they served up. As I said in an earlier post though, there's a limit to that and it would appear they have reached it.
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Old 03-22-2012, 01:03 AM   #1416
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Old 03-22-2012, 01:17 PM   #1417
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I think it shows how out of touch they are with their core consumers. Which is ironic given how much they go on and on about listening to their fans. I think they knew their real target market, the console GOW/COD/Halo types, wouldn't really care. Maybe they figured the rest would just happily take whatever they served up. As I said in an earlier post though, there's a limit to that and it would appear they have reached it.
Hey easy now. I am a console player, and I really enjoy both the GOW and Halo series. We're not all seduced by Michael Bay-style video games.
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Old 03-22-2012, 03:55 PM   #1418
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I think it shows how out of touch they are with their core consumers. Which is ironic given how much they go on and on about listening to their fans. I think they knew their real target market, the console GOW/COD/Halo types, wouldn't really care. Maybe they figured the rest would just happily take whatever they served up. As I said in an earlier post though, there's a limit to that and it would appear they have reached it.
There is so much wrong with this post... so, so much.

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Old 03-22-2012, 11:12 PM   #1419
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Am I wrong to be happy that Bioware is changing the Mass Effect 3 ending (via DLC it seems) and accepting fan feedback? Are there connotations of condescension that I'm not picking up here? Is Ray Muzyka pompous?

I've read articles posted in response to this that paint it as an insincere PR gimmick.

I've already been ravaged by one dude trying to reasonably express my approval of this guy's statement, but I should know better than to ever express my opinion in an online forum. He goes on and on about how condescending Muzyka sounds and then goes on this rant about how Bioware fans shouldn't have to deal with this bulls***, all the while trying to establish me as non-true Bioware fan since I don't seem emotionally invested in the series at all.

All of this simply because I haven't had the misfortune of having my ME experience traumatized. While I understand the fact that I haven't even played ME3 has a strong bias in my opinion, I don't see why it's wrong that I jump on the 'Fix the Ending' bandwagon. I understand it's a disappointment: I don't know how, but how does that mean that I can't be pro Fix-the-Ending DLC?

I dunno... I just needed to vent.

I'm just trying to find out if it's just rabid fans or that it's truly SO TERRIBLE an ending that it's turning people insane.

Guess I'll just have to play the game.

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Old 03-23-2012, 12:10 AM   #1420
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As much as I have a problem with the ending, BioWare should've stuck to their guns on this one. If they really felt that their work is "art" then they wouldn't change it for anyone and have kept it the way it was.

Now if the new ending DLC is free, that's all I have to say about it... but if it's paid DLC... *shakes fist* there'll be hell to pay for BioWare.

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Old 03-23-2012, 12:20 AM   #1421
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*shakes head*

My concern is that they'll bundle this content with something else. If it's stand-alone and optional (read: not a "patch") then fine. If it's part of an additional squad member/weapon pack DLC, I won't be happy.
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Old 03-23-2012, 12:36 AM   #1422
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Whether you like the ending or not (and leaving aside the whole "art" argument), it's almost certain that there will be no change to the endings. To do so would require far too much structural change to the game that you simply cannot do with a console title (this is the exact argument used by Bioware to defend some of the Prothy DLC content being on the disc, because you can't add certain things later as DLC). It's also made pretty clear in that statement of Muzyka's that they aren't even proposing changing it, at this stage anyway. They have offered additional closure - that's it. Expect some sort of epilogue material, be it slides, cutscenes, or pre-rendered CG.

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Hey easy now. I am a console player, and I really enjoy both the GOW and Halo series. We're not all seduced by Michael Bay-style video games.
It wasn't intended as a slight. It's simply a matter of different needs and wants of the two demographics. Obviously individuals may have wildly divergent tastes from one another, and in both camps there will be people that enjoy both shooters and various flavours of RPGs. But those people will probably be in the minority. I don't think it is unfair to say that what the average shooter fan wants in a game is different from what the average RPG fan wants. It's why they stripped so much out of ME2, and its why they added MP and Action Mode to ME3. The shooter demographic is far larger than Bioware's traditional demographic, and they wanted a bigger slice of that pie. It's unsurprising that they have continually moved to cater more to that demographic at the expense of the other.
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Old 03-23-2012, 12:42 AM   #1423
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They have offered additional closure - that's it. Expect some sort of epilogue material, be it slides, cutscenes, or pre-rendered CG.
That's pretty much what I read into it as well, but I don't want it forced on me.
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Old 03-23-2012, 12:48 AM   #1424
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Don't download/buy it then. Bundling seems fairly unlikely, especially if they offer it free. They'll wants lots of paid DLC to make up for it.
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Old 03-23-2012, 01:17 AM   #1425
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It wasn't intended as a slight...
Then you should probably throw away your misconceptions about console gamer demographics...


As for whatever addition or change or whatever they're doing in relation to the ending. I still think they shouldn't and stick with what they made and said that's that... unless this has all been just about selling people who are dumb enough to buy it, an extra little DLC that they can milk money from. In which case... *facepalm*

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Old 03-23-2012, 01:39 AM   #1426
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Don't download/buy it then. Bundling seems fairly unlikely, especially if they offer it free. They'll wants lots of paid DLC to make up for it.
LOL

Ok. Assuming they don't bundle it with something else that I would want or make it part of a patch, like I said 5 posts ago, that will be easy.

But thanks for the advice
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Old 03-23-2012, 11:35 AM   #1427
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Since BioWare is listening to fans and since there is no right or wrong answer to what will make everyone happy. I’m wanting multiple DLC endings.

1. The Breakfast of Champions ending. This ending is for those that skipped or just didn’t listen to dialogue in the entire trilogy. Now everything from the entire trilogy is spooned feed to you like a five year old right at the end (that is if you don’t skip the dialogue again).

2. The Peoples Court Ending – In this ending the person/entity giving you the answers will first be sworn in on a stack of bibles, given the strongest truth serum and hook to the never fail lie detector machine (Lie Detector Machine is a separate DLC for only $9.99). Now you get the answers and you can trust in the accuracy of the information.

3. The Christmas Ending – In this ending all your companions on the Normandy disobey the retreat orders and come to Shepard’s aid. Shepard can now say another farewell to them all while the Reapers gracefully wait. You will laugh, you will cry, but most of all you will wait another 30 minutes before seeing our new ending. For an extra $9.99 you can purchase the ability to ensure your favorite Mass Effect character survives the final assault. Sorry not valid in Puerto Rico.

4. The Suspension of Belief Ending - This is our biggest ending yet as it pretty much encompasses the entire trilogy. You tell us what is beyond your imagination in our make believe universe and we tailor the story of Shepard to you. Don’t believe in Mass Relays, fine the entire story will take place on earth, mars and the moon. Warning this will make for a very bad ending when the Reapers show up, but no problem, just try our new Rainbow and Lollipops Ending.

5. The Rainbow and Lollipops ending – This is the one that you have to see to believe, even we don’t believe it, but it is what many fans wanted. Everyone is guaranteed to live or your money back. Turns out there was one fatal flaw in the reapers design and Shepard has found it. Epic battles ensue as Shepard races across the galaxy to destroy every Reaper himself/herself. However, don’t worry Shepard can’t die, we have heard our fans loud and clear.

Try our endings for 19.99 each, don't like them? We can always make more to sell you. Just tell us what you want.

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Old 03-23-2012, 01:08 PM   #1428
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Your bitterness does you no credit, mimartin. When it comes down to it, the people that liked the ending ARE the minority. I can safely say I paid attention to all three games, which is a reason I think it's a load of ****


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Old 03-23-2012, 01:11 PM   #1429
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Where did I say you didn't?

I'm also not bitter, sorry you don't get my humor.

What I'm saying is...NO MATTER WHAT THEY DO SOMEONE WILL SAY IT SUCKS.
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Old 03-23-2012, 01:41 PM   #1430
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Surely that is how the internet has always been and always will be? It is unfortunate, but it is true. However, in this case, something DOES need to happen with the endings to this game.


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Old 03-23-2012, 01:51 PM   #1431
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When it comes down to it, the people that liked the ending ARE the minority.
There really is no way of knowing this. Many of us who liked the endings aren't forming movements and campaigns to get something done about them. And the vast majority of those who purchased ME3 haven't signed the petitions asking to change. It is more likely that the ending-haters are a vocal minority.


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Old 03-23-2012, 01:58 PM   #1432
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While ending haters are the ones signing petitions and making noise, the fact that most haven't signed petitions is a very weak argument in favor of them being in the minority. Despite most people probably being against something like, say the seal hunt, doesn't mean most of those have signed petitions against it (random example, if you disagree with it you can probably easily think of one yourself).

If I'd guess, I'd say that ending haters are a majority, but a fragmented one, where different people have different (main) complaints.


Checking out seems not to do much.
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Old 03-23-2012, 02:03 PM   #1433
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Surely that is how the internet has always been and always will be?
? The internet has always called people bitter when they make a joke?
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Old 03-23-2012, 03:09 PM   #1434
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When it comes down to it, the people that liked the ending ARE the minority.
There really is no way of knowing this.
As of now, I'd say sabre is spot on. No way to know yet which is the case. I was somwhat nonplussed by the ending, but think the hate is over the top at this point.


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Old 03-23-2012, 05:08 PM   #1435
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@ Sabre + Tot: Hence why BioWare should do NOTHING... and if they are doing something it's most likely because they want to make some money out of this.

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Old 03-23-2012, 07:23 PM   #1436
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They want to do something because they know their trust level with fans is damaged. DA2 disappointed some fans but with ME3 we are looking are a break in trust due to the lies during interviews by developers and producers with their PR tatics.

We are seeing the team from Dragon age 3 making comments how they will be listening to fans and want feedback. Bioware is in damage control.

They are going this since their fan base is important to their IP.
Its just good business.

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Old 03-23-2012, 09:46 PM   #1437
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynk Former View Post
@ Sabre + Tot: Hence why BioWare should do NOTHING... and if they are doing something it's most likely because they want to make some money out of this.
I'd tend to agree. Given the amount of DLC for ME2, I'd be surprised if they didn't try more of that for ME3, though.


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Old 03-24-2012, 11:05 AM   #1438
Taak Farst
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Originally Posted by mimartin View Post
? The internet has always called people bitter when they make a joke?
No. I meant the internet will always hate on decisions made by companies, regardless of what they are. So what is the point of being sarcastic with them, instead of let them get on with it? Moaning will never change, but in this case, the moaning may change SOMETHING.

http://i.imgur.com/JhtqY.jpg - CONTAINS SPOILERS! I thought it was a good idea for a mixture of Best/Worst/Average endings.



Last edited by Taak Farst; 03-24-2012 at 12:55 PM.
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Old 03-27-2012, 10:59 AM   #1439
Drunkside
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taak Farst View Post
http://i.imgur.com/JhtqY.jpg - CONTAINS SPOILERS! I thought it was a good idea for a mixture of Best/Worst/Average endings.
Show spoiler


Saivo´s New demo, A Cruel Northern Land is out! Listen to it on our mikseri.net bandpage.

http://www.mikseri.net/artists/?id=117610

Last edited by mimartin; 03-27-2012 at 01:14 PM.
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Old 03-27-2012, 11:19 AM   #1440
Prime
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So did anyone get the better endings (I don't even know what those are yet) without going through the hoops of playing MP or the iPod game?

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