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Old 01-16-2011, 02:14 PM   #121
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Originally Posted by Totenkopf View Post
I find that mistake annoying as well.
It wasn't a mistake... I believe Sabre hit the nail on the head.


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Old 01-16-2011, 05:35 PM   #122
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Wasn't addressing whether BO was taking some kind of license w/the term, rather that a lot of people often call America a democracy when in fact it isn't.


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Old 01-16-2011, 09:04 PM   #123
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60 Minutes had an interesting story on Loughner tonight. The video isn’t available at the moment, but if you get a chance I thought it was an enlightening story.

One of the most interesting things I learned was that he went into Safeway to get change for a $20. to pay a $15. cab fare. Timeline

60 Minutes also talked to experts with the Secret Service that pretty much said most assassinations have little to nothing to do the politics.


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Old 01-16-2011, 11:33 PM   #124
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Actually calling it a Republic is only part of it. Yes, we are a democracy, but specifically we are a Democratic Republic.

Quote:
Lolz.
It never ceases to amaze me how the right is always the victim.
Not saying the right is always the victim. But from the beginning of this the Right has been demonized. So, it is fair to say that from the beginning of this, the Right has been on the defensive. They've had to battle against the near constant assault of people like yourself who just want another reason to hate the Right.

I agree with Jae though that if it had been one of the right that was targeted, they probably would have done the same thing.

I just hope that I would be intellectually honest enough to not blame the Left or their rhetoric with no facts.


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Old 01-17-2011, 02:55 PM   #125
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Source

The Tea Party promised to take America back from the clutches of commie Muslims, and they're doing it one step at a time; frontier justice-style baby.


You ain't going to find that ad on Palin's website now, as she's probably avoiding any implication of motivating/condoning a political assassination and/or terrorist attack. But just in case:


I'll leave you to draw the conclusions, friend-o.
This is the OP, minus the pictures. This is an accusation by someone who is liberal, directly accusing a conservative of inciting a senseless, insane act of brutality. His comments mirror a lot of what was published nearly immediately after the shooting.

This accusation has since been proven utterly, completely wrong. I have yet to see anyone apologize for making these irresponsible charges, and I find this to be a sad commentary on (mostly journalistic) "integrity".


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Old 01-17-2011, 03:28 PM   #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae Onasi View Post
This accusation has since been proven utterly, completely wrong.
Please show me the irrefutable evidence that has proven anything about the case.

While I would agree the circumstantial evidence I’ve seen show that blaming the Tea Party or any political ideas extremely far-fetched at best. I have seen nothing that has proven anything as fact.

At least with Jared Loughner still alive authorities my actually get to the facts instead of all the mere speculation to what was or was not the cause.



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Old 01-17-2011, 04:04 PM   #127
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Given that the guy is bat guano crazy, not really sure what you could trust....regardless of whether his statements ended up appearing to implicate the left or the right.


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

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Old 01-17-2011, 04:55 PM   #128
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The Beatles told him to do it. It's right there in the White Album.

At this point the above is just as likely as the Tea Party.

Yellow journalism at its finest.


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Old 01-17-2011, 05:02 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by Totenkopf View Post
Given that the guy is crazy
Is that your professional opinion Dr. Totenkopf? That could be the cause, but even that hasn’t been proven yet.


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Old 01-18-2011, 11:27 AM   #130
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Please show me the irrefutable evidence that has proven anything about the case.
thing that made the OP completely utterly wrong.
Tea Party: Laughner had nothing to do with the TEA party. His closest friends have stated that he didn't even listen to talk radio. In fact as has been shown, he was completely OUT of the political spectrum. So the accusation that the TEA party set this up is misinformed at best.

Not to mention that most of the talk radio I listened to here in AZ actually PRAISED GIFFORDS( can it be so?) for her going against her own party. She was a blue-dog Democrat.

Then there's evidence to show that Laughner may have targeted her as far back as 2007. Prior to the TEA party and when Sarah Palin was just the Governor of Alaska.


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Old 01-18-2011, 11:33 AM   #131
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His closest friends have stated that he didn't even listen to talk radio.
Really? That is a fact? I thought his friends said he cut the off a few months ago. So just how do they know anything about what he has been doing the few months before the shooting.

Seems a little hypocritical that people are upset over others speculation, but want their speculation treated as fact.

Plus what you all seem to be forgetting is this wasn’t made political by the bias liberal media. Arizona Sheriff Clarence Dupnik is the one that brought it up. Sorry, but most people would assume (incorrectly it would seem) that a Sheriff would not talk to the media about a case without some evidence.



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Old 01-18-2011, 11:44 AM   #132
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Okay, so in a few months time he decided to start listening to talk radio? That's a bit of a stretch. It also happens to be AFTER the election when the Tea party switched to looking forward to the 2012 election.

Nothing in the sites he visited points to the TEA party.


"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." Thomas Jefferson
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Old 01-18-2011, 11:53 AM   #133
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If I heard correctly, in early 2007 Loughner was against Giffords. In the CBS special they said we went to one of her rallies and wrote "Die bitch" on a poster.
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Old 01-18-2011, 11:59 AM   #134
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If I heard correctly, in early 2007 Loughner was against Giffords. In the CBS special they said we went to one of her rallies and wrote "Die <female dog>" on a poster.
edited, just in case

Not sure about that one. BUT I do know from the report by a friend of his that he went to an event in 2007 and asked her, "How do you know words mean anything?" And she responded to him in Spanish. From there he got very agitated, and that may have been when he decided to write "Die <rhymes with Witch>"


"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." Thomas Jefferson
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Old 01-18-2011, 12:00 PM   #135
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Okay, so in a few months time he decided to start listening to talk radio? That's a bit of a stretch.
I never said he did. I don’t know what he did during that three months. If you believe his parents he acted perfectly normal despite his friends saying otherwise. The point is I don’t know and neither do you. Saying he listen to talk radio is disingenuous, but saying he did not is just as disingenuous since there is no way of know either way.

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Nothing in the sites he visited points to the TEA party.
I never wrote he did... I have no clue what he did, but neither do you or anyone else. That is my entire point.

I don't think politics have anything to do with this, but my opinion is not fact and your opinion is not a fact either.



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Old 01-18-2011, 12:02 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by Jae Onasi View Post
This is the OP, minus the pictures. This is an accusation by someone who is liberal, directly accusing a conservative of inciting a senseless, insane act of brutality. His comments mirror a lot of what was published nearly immediately after the shooting.
Thanks, Jae; I abduct and murder children for their coveted baking blood, too.

Quote:
This accusation has since been proven utterly, completely wrong. I have yet to see anyone apologize for making these irresponsible charges, and I find this to be a sad commentary on (mostly journalistic) "integrity".
Please indicate where I claimed that the theory was immutably factual and accurate. I suggested it as a possible, although indirect, motive for the murder. As of writing, the profile of Loughner suggests that he indiscriminately borrowed from any number of influences to form a hodge-podge manifesto that didn't conform to any particular contemporary political ideology. I doubt that he even identified with the Tea Party movement, but for all anyone knows, trying to discern what truly influenced him and what was simply "filler" material is becoming a folly, as per his psychological profile.

For example, the Department of Homeland Security suggested that Loughner might have been influenced by a white-supremicist publication. Do we know that he was influenced by said publication? No, and in fact, the DHS later said that they haven't found any apparent connection between the two. Does this mean that the original speculation was absolutely pointless, or evidence has been found that completely debunks the theory? No and no. The initial Tea Party implication would also fall under this paradigm.
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Old 01-18-2011, 12:13 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by Working Class Hero View Post
If I heard correctly, in early 2007 Loughner was against Giffords. In the CBS special they said we went to one of her rallies and wrote "Die bitch" on a poster.
He wrote that on a Thank You for Attending note he received from Giffords from 2007. The police have the letter as evidence. I think that speaks to his mentality that he would have kept that letter since 2007. His friends state that he was upset that Giffords would not/could not answer his question at the rally he attended. 'What is government if words have no meaning?'

The 60 Minutes video is now online.


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Old 01-18-2011, 12:26 PM   #138
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@mim: That is not what the media nor the OP, nor Sheriff Dupnik have been saying. They have used this as an attack on the conservative talk stations and TEA party. They have repeatedly switched from one conservative outlet to another and even now have switched to using it to support the DREAM Act(what the heck the DREAM Act had to do with the shooting is FAR beyond me). I'm pointing out that there is no evidence to support the claim that the TEA party/Conservatives had anything to do with the shooting. It's about like claiming that he was acting in self defense even though there is no evidence to support that claim.

Sorry for the edit:
@Pastramix:
No, there is evidence of him having read Mein Kampf a book usually read by white supremacists. Where is your evidence which supports him being associated with/being inspired by the TEA party.


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Old 01-18-2011, 12:38 PM   #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mimartin View Post
Seems a little hypocritical that people are upset over others speculation, but want their speculation treated as fact.

Plus what you all seem to be forgetting is this wasn’t made political by the bias liberal media. Arizona Sheriff Clarence Dupnik is the one that brought it up. Sorry, but most people would assume (incorrectly it would seem) that a Sheriff would not talk to the media about a case without some evidence.
Doesn't really matter if you think Dupnik's comment was the spark that ignited the far-left libel machine or not. It should have been disregarded by them out of the gate as a bad case of sheer speculation by a govt official who should have known better than to elicit that kind if opinion on national tv. What the "left-wing" media has been doing is attempt to poison the well and muzzle their opposition with an avalanche of negative commentary to obscure whatever the real reasons Jared had or didn't have. Doesn't matter to their template. It's why you get people like Daisy Hernandez on NPR making race related comments about the identity of the killer. Imagine if some conservative journalist had done that with regard to either Loughner or Hasan... "Thank God it was a hispanic/muslim...." (remember, these wre many of the same people urging us not to jump to conclusions about Hasan's motivations right after that incident) Or the continuous drum of tv and print media pundits trying to pin this on the Tea Party or SP (conveniently ignoring the nature of American political rhetoric for most of our history). It's also worth noting that it's the liberal dems that always go for the "Fairness Doctrine" card in incidents like this....any excuse to muzzle their oppositions' pov. The only thing that's really hypocritical here is the actions by many on the left who have told us to be cautious about determining influences on people like Hasan but can't contain themselves from pinning blame on the TP or other conservative sources in this case.

@mim--"Dr."? Retract those claws, catman. If you can say you've never waited for a "professional opinion" before writing someone off as crazy b/c of what they've done....


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

How would you like to own a little bit of my foot in your ass.---Red Foreman
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Old 01-18-2011, 12:48 PM   #140
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Well you were commenting where I had asked Jae for irrefutable evidence that it “has since been proven utterly, completely wrong.” While I agree that it is beyond far-fetched to blame any political philosophy, I have seen nothing to make that belief fact.


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Old 01-18-2011, 12:58 PM   #141
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Well then, for that matter, we could easily blame the Left for providing her as a terget.
Daily Kos Link
We could blame Anti-Flag which he previously stated was his favorite band... and very leftist. Link to interview

At least THOSE we have evidence in support of. As of yet, there is no evidence that suggests he was influenced by the TEA party.


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Old 01-18-2011, 01:00 PM   #142
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No, there is evidence of him having read Mein Kampf a book usually read by white supremacists. Where is your evidence which supports him being associated with/being inspired by the TEA party.
I don't have any empirical evidence to confirm or deny a link between Loughner and Tea Party literature. I also don't have the ability to probe other's minds, revealing their true motivations. Unlike myself, you seem to posses both, or simply a talent for reapplying standards per convenience.
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Old 01-18-2011, 01:06 PM   #143
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Is that your professional opinion Dr. Totenkopf? That could be the cause, but even that hasn’t been proven yet.
um, have you seen the guy's videos? He's insane.



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Old 01-18-2011, 01:07 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by PastramiX View Post
I don't have any empirical evidence to confirm or deny a link between Loughner and Tea Party literature. I also don't have the ability to probe other's minds, revealing their true motivations. Unlike myself, you seem to posses both, or simply a talent for reapplying standards per convenience.
But you had enough evidence to point the finger squarely at the TEA party. As I have said, there is no evidence that he was inspired by the TEA party. You threw out accusations with no proof.

Hey how about this daily Kos rant

Note the date. It, like Palin's target map, has since been removed.


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Old 01-18-2011, 01:19 PM   #145
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But you had enough evidence to point the finger squarely at the TEA party. As I have said, there is no evidence that he was inspired by the TEA party. You threw out accusations with no proof.
Besides the previous vandalism of Giffords' office, and a general sense of political dislike of Giffords by some, and now the shooting, there's enough to at least be suspicious of some sort of pseudo-association. Your insistence that lack of current proof equates to a false argument in this context is equally damning as suggesting that there is a direct implication between the two (which, if you've been comprehensively reading my posts, isn't what I've been saying at all). I suppose that this going to play out as a weak vs. strong (a)theism debacle.

Quote:
Note the date. It, like Palin's target map, has since been removed.
'Kay. Your point is what exactly? That the author might possess tendencies to murder Giffords? That could be plausible, but I don't really know either way.
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Old 01-18-2011, 01:38 PM   #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PastramiX View Post
Besides the previous vandalism of Giffords' office, and a general sense of political dislike of Giffords by some, and now the shooting, there's enough to at least be suspicious of some sort of pseudo-association. Your insistence that lack of current proof equates to a false argument in this context is equally damning as suggesting that there is a direct implication between the two (which, if you've been comprehensively reading my posts, isn't what I've been saying at all). I suppose that this going to play out as a weak vs. strong (a)theism debacle.

'Kay. Your point is what exactly? That the author might possess tendencies to murder Giffords? That could be plausible, but I don't really know either way.
Yes, there was a strong dislike, but it was not limited to the Right(which was the point of the image). Despite the Left targeting her, damning her, being inflamed at her, you chose to point to the Right. And it's funny that you point to the vandalism. Seeing as how that incident was never solved. So while it MAY have been a rightist upset over the health care debate(which the timing might suggest) there is also no proof that it was the Right.


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Old 01-18-2011, 01:43 PM   #147
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@PastramiX--should be fairly obvious. The post (and site) could just as easily have affected JL's thinking as you seem to believe the TP did. Both as links to his behavior are equally tenuous at best.

Quote:
..there's enough to at least be suspicious of some sort of pseudo-association.
To anything, really. So, why are you so fixated on the TP? It could just as easily be openly racist groups, left-wing wackos disenchanted w/Gifford's voting record...


Now, I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his country.---Patton

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism.---Teddy Roosevelt

I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception.---Groucho

And if you all get killed, I'll piss on your graves.---Shaman Urdnot

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Old 01-18-2011, 02:33 PM   #148
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um, have you seen the guy's videos? He's insane.
Not in AZ.


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Old 01-18-2011, 02:44 PM   #149
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That's because people in AZ are crazy already... er... wait... I live in AZ. I rest my case?

Actually calling him crazy might not be accurate. Considering people have said that he used drugs, including hallucinogens, and has been arrested on drug charges, there is a possibility that his rambling on Youtube could be related to heavy self medication.


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Old 01-18-2011, 03:39 PM   #150
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I was speaking more along the lines of the insanity defense in AZ.

I’m pretty sure he will be charged by both the State and Federal Governments. AZ does not allow the insanity defense and it is a tall order in assassination cases on the federal side of things.


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Old 01-18-2011, 04:32 PM   #151
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Actually he likely ruined the chances of getting an insanity defense when he stated he understood the charges against him. The insanity defense is used far more in TV and movies than in real life. The legal definition of insanity is way different than the clinical definition. If a person knows what they are doing is illegal they are not legally insane. They can be completely crazy and still know what they are doing is illegal.

Of course Clark v Arizona established that there was no "right" to an insanity defense. And Clark thought the person he shot was a space alien.

I feel like I should put "I Am Not A Lawyer" somewhere in here though.


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Old 01-18-2011, 07:22 PM   #152
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That's because people in AZ are crazy already... er... wait... I live in AZ. I rest my case?

Actually calling him crazy might not be accurate. Considering people have said that he used drugs, including hallucinogens, and has been arrested on drug charges, there is a possibility that his rambling on Youtube could be related to heavy self medication.
Okay...so either he's either insane...or just a complete idiot.



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Old 01-18-2011, 07:54 PM   #153
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Okay...so either he's either insane...or just a complete idiot.
From my experience, those two are not mutually exclusive.


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Old 01-18-2011, 08:18 PM   #154
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Those two pretty much describe my entire family.


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Old 01-18-2011, 09:22 PM   #155
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Those two pretty much describe my entire family.
We must be related lol


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