Jar Jar didn't hurt Star Wars Canon. He was just another organ in the massive parasite that is The Phantom Menace. And to a greater extent, the Prequel Trilogy itself.
Grievous, who could easily take out a bunch of Jedi (including masters of the Council) is not a Gary Stu. But Ahsoka, who hasn't won a single duel, is a Mary Sue. That's double standards.
Grievous although a powerfull enemy is shown to be flawed, he's not good enough for Dooku, he is damaged and has to ran away from Mace (if you said that however that Mace is an unstoppable force of nature an quite overpowered i would have agreed with you), Grievous imo is just right scary but not all powerfull, instead of you know... being a joke.
Ahsoka is miss "i'm always right"
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An example of what? War? (Ryloth trilogy, Landing at Point Rain, etc...) Control of relevant systems? (Ambush, Rookies, Holocron Heist, ARC Troopers, Zillo Beast, etc...) Anakin going dark? (Brain Invaders, Mortis, etc...) Admit you're wrong, and next time, learn about the subject before enter on some discussion.
And you have yet to tell me how "Nothing happens in it!!!!", aswell as the rest of your post, since it's clearly not true.
Oh good first season episodes, that's how long i've stuck around , Ambush (Yoda playing with those toy robots), Rookies (a bunch of brand new clones fooling those toy robots) still don't see how that qualify's as a war, i haven't seen a war in the Clone Wars and nothing chaged in the big picture so not so relevant systems.
Every once in a while i catch an episode, and nothing changed the war hasn't moved an inch in any direction, they are still doing the same stuff.
Say what you will, but the episode plot formula repeats itself a lot.
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Like?
Ambush comes to mind, but really, any episode that has a Jedi stranded on a distant system(again a common theme), you seen to know the episodes names better than i do, so take your pick.
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An I lying? I'm yet to discover why do I waste time with you.
So don't, but no need to be a smug internet warrior about it.
Come on people please debate/discuss nicely without this turning into a Kavars’ political or religious debate. This topic is about Star Wars, so unless your last name in Lucas there is no reason to make it personal.
I meant the Ewoks series and comic books. Some of the crap that came out with makes Jar Jar positively sophisticated entertainment.
A little snippet of something out of Ewoks the series
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Gonster was a sapient, humanoid creature with large, pointed ears, and two heads with wide mouths. He lived in the Twin Hills of the forest moon of Endor with his pet hoosha. The Two-headed Gonster used dried wank's hide in the creation of the magic cap, a magical hat that was used to trap the Raich in the form of a harmless tree.
"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." Thomas Jefferson
The people moaning about The Clone Wars should have lived through “The Christmas Special, “Caravan of Courage: An Ewok Adventure” or “Ewoks: The Battle for Endor”.
The Clone Wars CG series are actually on the whole better than the prequel movies.
OK, this thread is actually making me want to check out TCW just to see how bad/good it really is. I wish Netflix would have it available for streaming, because I'd rather not clog up my rental queue with it.
"Mind your wants, 'cause someone wants your mind."
Grievous although a powerfull enemy is shown to be flawed, he's not good enough for Dooku, he is damaged and has to ran away from Mace (if you said that however that Mace is an unstoppable force of nature an quite overpowered i would have agreed with you), Grievous imo is just right scary but not all powerfull, instead of you know... being a joke.
Ahsoka is miss "i'm always right"
"There are none so blind as those, that will not see."
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Originally Posted by mstr kenobi
Oh good first season episodes, that's how long i've stuck around , Ambush (Yoda playing with those toy robots),
Isn't the whole Genndy series Jedi playing with "those toy robots"? Why the double standards?
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Originally Posted by mstr kenobi
Rookies (a bunch of brand new clones fooling those toy robots) still don't see how that qualify's as a war,
Are you blind, or can't you read what I just wrote? I've written examples for each of your "criteria", and yet you seem to ignore what I wrote and create strawman to compensate your lack of argumentation. On Rookies they are denfending an Outpost from a relevant system. On Ambush, they are negotiating an allegiance of a relevant system. Do you still want to ignore the facts?
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Originally Posted by mstr kenobi
i haven't seen a war in the Clone Wars and nothing chaged in the big picture so not so relevant systems.
If you say that, then you haven't seen the series at all, and as such, you are playing a troll on this discussion. Watch the
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Originally Posted by mstr kenobi
Every once in a while i catch an episode, and nothing changed the war hasn't moved an inch in any direction, they are still doing the same stuff.
Watch the series and then come back with some real arguments. And with less double standards.
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Originally Posted by mstr kenobi
Say what you will, but the episode plot formula repeats itself a lot.
Say what you will, but it doesn't. See, I can use your lack of argumentation too.
I guess it's better to whine than to ignore the parts of the franchise that aren't really for you... Also, The Senate and Kavar's have ruined LFN forever
What did she call us? She made up some name for those who dislike her work. I can't recall now.
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Originally Posted by Alkonium
Talifan, a play on Taliban. In that context, at least.
I'm a "Tali"-fan
Show spoiler
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As far as TCW.. seriously think people need to give it a second chance. If only for the last 2 seasons (or even just the Secrets Revealed current season).. I think you'd find out that A LOT of things have changed since the barf-worthy "Skyguy" rancor. Not so much super-kiddy filled anymore. It's more like "getting darker with kiddie sprinkles" nowadays
Seriously looking like most of the anti-TCW debate is people who watched the first 1-2 episodes and stopped there. As far as the mundane episodes where "nothing gets accomplished". Well here's a bit of reality... in a series, you're going to have filler episodes. It's the way of TV. You can't have all-action like a movie that has to tell it's story in a limited time (unless you have hella-budget for trilogies).
Those that think it's kiddy, here are a few things I remember from just this season:
Deaths on camera(multiple), one with impalement on screen(and not by a lightsaber)
one Implied being cut in half by a door.
Torture.
"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." Thomas Jefferson
Something that's excessively kiddy need not be mutually exclusive to adult violence, you know. It's possible to do a muppets show amidst wanton sex and bloody violence. Doesn't mean it isn't 'kiddy'.
I guess it's better to whine than to ignore the parts of the franchise that aren't really for you... Also, The Senate and Kavar's have ruined LFN forever
The fact that it took me even half a second to realize you did that on purpose fills me with self-loathing. I'm going to go ahead and blame my slowness on post-surgery painkillers.
I agree with you though. Although I do occasionally fall into the trap of "x ruined the franchise!", I try to avoid it (I was actually fine with the part of a Clone Wars episode I saw when taking care of a younger relative, but still don't watch, since I just don't care much about the era). Pick & Mix Canon is the way to go with SW, especially since no matter how much terrible stuff comes out, it doesn't hurt the chances of something good coming out, unlike the ruination of say, a video game series.
I didn't get it and I have no painkiller excuse. I thought Lynk was just being his usual annoying self.
Oh, you have an excuse...
Appropriate, considering the topic is people wanting to kill a franchise that only started when you were ~13 for going on too long and supposedly deteriorating in quality (unlike you I'm sure).
I was hoping for a good, well done and inspired TV series to attend to my Star Wars wirthdrawal (loathe for Clone Wars series here too). Seems to me the whole Clone Wars mania is getting more and more unpalatable for everyone and hopefully will die soon (wishful thinking).
This x10000.
I really wish George would one day wake up and go "I need to fix this".
That day he would declare that the prequels are not canon, that Han shot first, and that he would be now on an artistic path...rather than a monetary path.
But one can dream.
PS.
On that same day SOE would say "our bad" and replace NGE with CU or Pre-CU.
There are a lot of things that Star Wars would be removed from canon or otherwise retconned.
The Prequel Trilogy should be retconned into a series of B-movies made by a shameless holodirector in the New Republic trying to cash in on the Skywalker name. The NJO books should likewise be a series of crappy in-universe novels about the Yuuzhan Vong war, taking it in extremely broad strokes. Legacy of the Force, likewise, likewise, and then when we get to Fate of the Jedi, we can actually let it be in-universe.
"There are none so blind as those, that will not see."
It's just an opinion, it's not blindness, not everyone will have the same opinion as yours i happen to like better Grievous the way he was in Genndy's cartoon as opposed to the new series.
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Isn't the whole Genndy series Jedi playing with "those toy robots"? Why the double standards?
Hardly, while they were there in Genndy's series, in the new series we have entire episodes dedicated to their stupidity and ineptitude.
And the constant jokes...
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Are you blind, or can't you read what I just wrote? I've written examples for each of your "criteria", and yet you seem to ignore what I wrote and create strawman to compensate your lack of argumentation. On Rookies they are denfending an Outpost from a relevant system. On Ambush, they are negotiating an allegiance of a relevant system. Do you still want to ignore the facts?
Jesus man, i simply don't see it... i don't see how those victory's changed anything in the big picture, the war effort is still in the same place and things are in the same stalemate as before, they are still doing the same things.
IMO this series is milking the cow to extreme levels.
And please stop using "you are wrong" as your aguments.
I was referring to Alexrd, not the world in general
Sorry, my mistake!
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Originally Posted by Alexrd
The Gary Stu Grievous. I remember.
Gary Stu or not, I preferred him. At the time he seemed like a credible villain that the Jedi couldn't run roughshod over.
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Originally Posted by mstr kenobi
Grievous was a Gary Stu? How about Ahsoka????
Actually, I think the claims that Ahsoka is overpowered are greatly exaggerated. What specifically are you referring to?
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Originally Posted by mstr kenobi
I tell you what, the Clone Wars is all about, CIS got this new, surprise, ultimate weapon that is gonna turn the tide of war, we gotta stop them!!!! But only on the next episode.
Either that or bounty hunter whatishisname is up to something bad that can change the war, but it doesn't really.
These comments make me think you haven't watched the show in a long time. What about all the shows that have nothing to do with those things?
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Originally Posted by mstr kenobi
How many more episodes do you think i need to watch? lol
None, since you have already decided. Or you could heed some of the comments of some others and give it another chance. The only downside is that you may find you have less to whine about.
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Originally Posted by mstr kenobi
Jar Jar didn't hurt Star Wars Canon. He was just another organ in the massive parasite that is The Phantom Menace.
I see comments like this a lot, obviously. Yet, for some reason I can't explain, I seem to rather watch TPM than AOTC. I guess there is no accounting for taste, huh?
Or maybe it is just because Liam Neeson is straight dope...
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Originally Posted by mstr kenobi
Ahsoka is miss "i'm always right"
But the key is that her character is written to act and think that way, but not be portrayed that way. I'm not saying you should like her (who really likes teenagers? ), but it doesn't make it bad writing.
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Originally Posted by Tommycat
I meant the Ewoks series and comic books. Some of the crap that came out with makes Jar Jar positively sophisticated entertainment.
I thought the Droids cartoon really had the SW feel though...
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Originally Posted by Evil Q
OK, this thread is actually making me want to check out TCW just to see how bad/good it really is.
In some ways it is better than the prequels, and some ways not. In a nutshell I'd break it down like this:
The Good
For me anyway, probably the thing I enjoy the most is that we really get to see the Kenobi/Skywalker relationship we are told about, and Anakin portrayed is the hero we heard about. We really see their friendship, with all the brotherly banter and sarcasm and still getting the sense of how close they are. Anakin actually shows some maturity, sense of responsibility, and selflessness. Flawed as he is I actually like Anakin a lot more now.
The animation is greatly improved over what it was the first season. Lightsaber combat in particular really stands out. The battles are often large and sweeping, with tons of action. Some episodes are just real good adventures that have the old school SW feel.
As much as people tend to take shots at Lucas, I think it is great that we are getting SW background and information from him. The Mortis arch for example, while a bit strange, actually explained a lot about how the Force really works.
And Jar Jar very rarely appears, if he sticks in your craw. And Ziro the Hutt is awesome. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.
The Bad
Not every episode is strong, as one would expect. Some of the political episodes have been a bit simplistic in Season 3. I think Padme is portrayed poorly sometimes. IMO the shows strength is definitely in the action eps.
Ahsoka is a lightning rod, and I think as a character she doesn't really fit because she is quite similar to a young Anakin in terms of attitudes and he was supposed to be pretty unique in the Jedi Order in that regard. Sometimes her teenager-ish attitudes can be very annoying. Some characters seem a bit too cliche and carbon-copies of other SW characters (Maul's brother for example). And sometimes EU characters that appear are portrayed differently, like surfer-dude Quinlan Vos.
And the clashes with EU always get people's dander up...
Misconceptions
Many of the issues that turned off people initially are no longer relevant. The "roger, roger" droid jokes are almost entirely nonexistent now, for example. And as Chainz mentioned things like the "Skyguy" nicknames are pretty much gone.
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Originally Posted by mstr kenobi
Hardly, while they were there in Genndy's series, in the new series we have entire episodes dedicated to their stupidity and ineptitude.
And the constant jokes...
Dude, seriously, it hasn't been like that in over 2 seasons.
Besides, everybody knows that the goiter has taken over GL's brain
LOL
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Originally Posted by SITH LORD 872
I just watched the new season of V and i have to say i really likes it better than the 80's tv series.
Hot as she is (and she is HOT), I seriously doubt that even Supergirl can save that train wreck of a show. It does have its good points, but it's going nowhere and its cancellation is just about a foregone conclusion. Sorry.
As for the 80s show, it was a train wreck, too, but the original miniseries that spawned it was actually quite good, especially compared to other early-80s TV, which was, in general, pretty awful.
"Mind your wants, 'cause someone wants your mind."
My attitude about the CW CGI series is now sort of petering off. I couldn't care less TBH. Tommy made a good point about it, though and I only wish there was in more common media that would introduce children to the colorful facets of reality.
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Originally Posted by Sabretooth
Something that's excessively kiddy need not be mutually exclusive to adult violence, you know. It's possible to do a muppets show amidst wanton sex and bloody violence. Doesn't mean it isn't 'kiddy'.
Actually very true. Hell, nobody even realizes how F***ing wrong some of the stuff is which kids are exposed to. I have long held it that, for example, Spongebob is not a kids show--though I couldn't quite ferret out why that was. Now re-watching it I am floored with laughter because now I 'get it'.
Okay..
Well in it's current state I can see why a lot of people think that it should die. I would say that the best that could happen for the SW franchise is for someone to slap some sense into George Lucas tbh.
he needs to stop listening to these leeches that are giving him ideas like the force unleashed series and the kids tv show.
Also, if there ever is another SW movie made ever again he probably shouldn't direct or write it.
Okay, i'm ranting a bit here but i'll leave this as my main point:
In my opinion the main thing killing star wars is all the focus that's put on the PT era. They're tryng to fill in the gaps of those films and in the case of TFU series they're trying to fill in the gaps between episodes 3 & 4 now as well.
This (imo) is the most overdone, unintresting time period for them to focus on.
The sooner they move on the better. Even though they then might start ruining other canon in different time periods instead. If that was the case then yes it should die.
1. Further proof GL has lost his marbles, i'd love to see what would actually happen if it suddenly had really low ratings for a few years.
2. I tried to give this show a chance but it's clear to me that you have to be a big SW fanboy to try and convince yourself that the show is any good. I like SW but I have taste as well.
Also, I THOUGHT KAREN TRAVISS DID AN EXCELLENT JOB WRITING SW NOVELS! SHE HELPED ME ACTUALLY LIKE SW AGAIN!!!
So the fact that they got rid of her in favour of that god awful tv show didn't sit well with me tbh.
And que all the Traviss haters to tell me how wrong I am.................
It's just an opinion, it's not blindness, not everyone will have the same opinion as yours i happen to like better Grievous the way he was in Genndy's cartoon as opposed to the new series.
And what I've wrote is my opinion. You may like one Grievous over the other, but if Ahsoka is a Mary Sue for you, then should be Grievous.
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Originally Posted by mstr kenobi
in the new series we have entire episodes dedicated to their stupidity and ineptitude.
No, we haven't.
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Originally Posted by mstr kenobi
And the constant jokes...
Only present on some (read: few) episodes of the first season.
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Originally Posted by mstr kenobi
Jesus man, i simply don't see it...
Because you don't want to see it. You have already made up your mind about it. But that shouldn't stop you from accepting the facts. And watch the episodes as proof of those facts.
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Originally Posted by mstr kenobi
i don't see how those victory's changed anything in the big picture, the war effort is still in the same place and things are in the same stalemate as before, they are still doing the same things.
So in the Genndy series. Just because you won a battle doesn't mean you won the war. There are others to be fought.
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Originally Posted by mstr kenobi
IMO this series is milking the cow to extreme levels.
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Originally Posted by mstr kenobi
And please stop using "you are wrong" as your aguments.
I don't use that as my argument. Stop using strawmen. But if you are wrong, there is nothing I can do about it.
Actually, I think the claims that Ahsoka is overpowered are greatly exaggerated. What specifically are you referring to?
I never said she's overpowered, even though she always manages to find a way to get away against the big guys (Dooku, Grievous, Assaj) it's quite clear she's outmatched, every Jedi in the series can own the battle droids in battle, perhaps everyone with a weapon can beat them (that's a week point, but TCW can't take the blame for that since Lucas himself choose to portray them this way ).
The reason why i say she's a Mary Sue is that she is miss i'm always right (which links to your other comment).
You are right about the fact that you can have an obnoxious character who thinks he knows everything, and it's not necessarily bad writing.
The point where things go wrong IMO is when that obnoxious character is actually always right.
Look at teenager Anakin in AOTC, whiny? Yes. Obnoxious? Yes. Utterly annoying? You bet. Mary Sue? No.
Why not? Because he kept falling flat on his face, he thought he was this awesome guy who could do no wrong, and in absolutely everything he did he failed miserably, he didn't get anything right.
If that annoying brat got everything right, it would've been terrible writing, there is no story if the obnoxious guy gets away with everything.
I think they were aiming to make her this cool, smart teenager, but they missed the mark, and made her annoying, to many adults atleast (i'm sure little girls love her).
I'll try again to explain why i don't like The Clone Wars, the reason i don't like it is:
The series is designed to stay forever in a stalemate, they can't move forward and change things because then they will colide with a little thing called ROTS, they can't drastically alter the key players nor push the war to the brink unless they decide to end the series, that makes it kinda pointless and uninteresting for me. It just keeps on going and going and going...
Other than that, i'm dissapointed that there is very little "war" in TCW, where's the war on the frontline? The huge battles? The series focus too much on the characters doing whatever it is that their doing (which again feels quite irrelevant to me) and we don't get to see an actual war being fought.
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You may like one Grievous over the other, but if Ahsoka is a Mary Sue for you, then should be Grievous.
I think you are confusing overpowered with Mary Sue, at least for me a Mary Sue character is a "perfect" character that will always prevail against all odds.
Grievous is a pawn in this war, he's being played, manipulated by Sidious, he's not even suppoused to win, the fact that he is a toy in Sidious hands automatically stops him from being a Mary Sue as i understand it.
Overpowered? Oh yes overpowered and to be feared, just the way i like my villains Mary Sue? I don't think so.
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So in the Genndy series. Just because you won a battle doesn't mean you won the war. There are others to be fought.
Agreed, but the Genndy series had a very specific target, it had a beggining and an end planned and no time to "waste" so it was constantly pushing forward towards the end of the war, and showing to us the "highlights" pivotal moments.
The structure of the new series, no ending planned, let's keep this thing afloat for as long as possible, goes against that and makes everything feel irrelevant. Tell me, did those super relevant pivotal systems ever get mentioned again? Controlling them help in anything?
Last edited by mstr kenobi; 04-06-2011 at 07:09 AM.
A Mary Sue is a character that effects the behavior of others simply by existing. A character can be utterly worthless trash, do nothing worth noting, and -still- be a sue because his/her presence causes other characters to act out of character. This is how you get the Villain Sue, the 'Anti'-Sue, the Jerkass Sue, the Relationship Sue, and the Mary Tzu. They're all radically different, but they all do the same thing.
I like SW but I have taste as well.
Also, I THOUGHT KAREN TRAVISS DID AN EXCELLENT JOB WRITING SW NOVELS! SHE HELPED ME ACTUALLY LIKE SW AGAIN!!!
Well even bad taste is taste.
Just proves we all have different taste and saying you think something is good or bad is very different than making a statement saying something is good or bad.
Ahsoka is clearly a Mary Sue, as this chart indicates:
By this chart I'm a Mary Sue!
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Originally Posted by VeniVidiVicous
he needs to stop listening to these leeches that are giving him ideas like the force unleashed series and the kids tv show.
So one of your many beefs is that there is a kids show at all?
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Originally Posted by VeniVidiVicous
I THOUGHT KAREN TRAVISS DID AN EXCELLENT JOB WRITING SW NOVELS! SHE HELPED ME ACTUALLY LIKE SW AGAIN!!!
So the fact that they got rid of her in favour of that god awful tv show didn't sit well with me tbh.
If you are complaining about "ruining other canon in different time periods", Traviss was one of the worst offenders, regardless if her writing was good or not. Not to mentioned the ultimate Gary Stu-ness of her Mandos and Boba Fett.
And for the record, she left of her own accord.
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Originally Posted by mstr kenobi
The point where things go wrong IMO is when that obnoxious character is actually always right.
I think this is the crux of where I disagree. I think it is shown that she is not always right, and makes mistakes.
I think this is the crux of where I disagree. I think it is shown that she is not always right, and makes mistakes.
You are nitpicking here, most of the time she argues, disobeys, her master she turns out to be right in the end, and ultimately everything turns out ok.
I'm sure there are at least some episodes where she is thought a lesson however.
You are nitpicking here, most of the time she argues, disobeys, her master she turns out to be right in the end, and ultimately everything turns out ok.
I'm sure there are at least some episodes where she is thought a lesson however.
How is this nitpicking? If she isn't always written is being correct then does that not reduce her Stu-ness?
You are nitpicking here, most of the time she argues, disobeys, her master she turns out to be right in the end, and ultimately everything turns out ok.
I'm sure there are at least some episodes where she is thought a lesson however.
You're complaining because at the end of the episode they are back where they were? You have just described about 50% of all US television shows. However, as someone that has watched all the clone wars episodes I can honestly state you are misrepresenting The Clone Wars. Yes, at the end of the episode they are still fighting a war. So what, this is a 30 min TV show, not a 90 min movie. Yes, we know where they will end up because we have seen RotS, but that does not mean we know how they got there.
I do not dispute that some episodes are throwaways; they have no real implication into the overall Star Wars universe. That does not however mean they are all throwaways. Many of the episodes seem to grow the characters beyond the cardboard cutouts of the prequels. Many episodes also build on what happened in a previous unrelated story arch. Your uninformed comments mean you either are purposely misrepresenting the subject because of your distain for it, you are merely looking to provoke a response or you saw two episodes and hated it.
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