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Old 04-01-2012, 09:23 AM   #1
arsenalforever
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KOTOR 2 Storyline questions [SPOILERS]

Vrook to Exile on Dantooine:

"Somehow they [the Sith] have learned their hunger from you"

But I thought that they had learned all this from the Sith teachings in the Trayus Academy? Why does Vrook think that the Exile educated the Sith in feeding on the Force from others?

And I think the Masters tried to cut the Exile from the Force on Dantooine because they feared that if he fell to the Dark side, he too will become like Nihilius in order to satisfy his hunger. Am I right?

Another thing I want to understand is, Nihilius learned to feed on other Force sensitives from the Sith teachings, but where did the Exile learn to do this? The Masters call him the "Death of the Force" even though he has not caused any harm. The Exile simply motivates others to stand with him and fight alongside him. He influences their decisions but where does he *FEED* on others?

Another thing, why doesn't the Exile die when he kills Kreia at the Trayus Core? They have a strong force bond between them, don't they?

Last edited by arsenalforever; 04-01-2012 at 09:30 AM.
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Old 04-01-2012, 09:32 AM   #2
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Quote:
"Somehow they [the Sith] have learned their hunger from you"

But I thought that they had learned all this from the Sith teachings in the Trayus Academy? Why does Vrook think that the Exile educated the Sith in feeding on the Force from others?
I'm unsure of his exact meaning. Perhaps he think that the Sith learned this power by observing the Exile?

Quote:
And I think the Masters tried to cut the Exile from the Force on Dantooine because they feared that if he fell to the Dark side, he too will become like Nihilius in order to satisfy his hunger. Am I right?
Yes. The problem, however, is that the Jedi don't know that because the Exile is of the same condition as Nihilus, she is the only one who could confront and have any chance of killing him in a straight-up fight.

Quote:
Another thing I want to understand is, Nihilius learned to feed on other Force sensitives from the Sith teachings, but where did the Exile learn to do this? The Masters call him the "Death of the Force" even though he has not caused any harm. The Exile simply motivates others to stand with him and fight alongside him. He influences their decisions but where does he *FEED* on others?
The Jedi explain this elsewhere in this conversation. And Nihilus himself did not learn his draining power from the Sith, it is a consequence of his status as a wound in the Force and attunement to the dark side (the other Sith learned that from Trayus or wherever). Regarding the Exile herself, as the Jedi explain, she feeds off of the energy of her companions via their bonds (though evidently as a consequence of her light-side alignment, the only potentially negative side-effect is her unconscious affecting of their minds), and Zez-Kai Ell says that the Exile actually feeds off of everyone she kills (hence why she becomes more and more powerful as the game goes on; this is a clever way of explaining the level-up gameplay feature within the context of the story).


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"For of all sad words of tongue or pen, The saddest are these: 'It might have been!'" -John Whittier

"Apathy is death." -Kreia
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Old 04-01-2012, 09:48 AM   #3
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The problem, however, is that the Jedi don't know that because the Exile is of the same condition as Nihilus, she is the only one who could confront and have any chance of killing him in a straight-up fight.
Why is the Exile the only one who can kill Nihilius in a straight up fight?

The Jedi Masters cut the Exile off from the force because they fear that she might fall to the Dark side and become like Nihilius. But why would the Exile fall to the Dark side? She worked tirelessly and moved from planet to planet to save the Jedi Masters. If she would have been Dark sided, wouldn't she have killed the Jedi Masters?
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Old 04-01-2012, 11:33 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arsenalforever View Post
Vrook to Exile on Dantooine:

"Somehow they [the Sith] have learned their hunger from you"

But I thought that they had learned all this from the Sith teachings in the Trayus Academy? Why does Vrook think that the Exile educated the Sith in feeding on the Force from others?
Because that is the simple answer. They don't know about Nihlius, only about the general Sith threat, and so they blame the one person who can do what they think is causing the problem.

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Originally Posted by arsenalforever View Post
Another thing, why doesn't the Exile die when he kills Kreia at the Trayus Core? They have a strong force bond between them, don't they?
At that point, it is more like they did. Though the game does make mention of the idea that, if severed, it would kill them both. But when it is, it is either that it was severed because it was no longer between the same people(i.e between Kreia and the Exile), or because it was a bond, inevitably, between teacher and student, so when she says "I will teach you no longer. Our bond remains, but that is all." The bond likely breaks with the utterance of that first part, and the second is a lie(as Kreia is known to do), though it is possible she would not have known about it.

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Originally Posted by arsenalforever View Post
Why is the Exile the only one who can kill Nihilius in a straight up fight?

The Jedi Masters cut the Exile off from the force because they fear that she might fall to the Dark side and become like Nihilius. But why would the Exile fall to the Dark side? She worked tirelessly and moved from planet to planet to save the Jedi Masters. If she would have been Dark sided, wouldn't she have killed the Jedi Masters?
They view the Exile's and Nihilus's power in a simplistic manner, and so they believed them the same. But there is a big difference between the two, the most obvious being that Nihilus knows full well that he is doing this, and that he needs to, while the Exile might have some idea, at no point in the game does he/she ever mention needing to feed of someone else. Beyond the Jedi masters in a DS play-through, anyone you do feed off of, you aren't taking enough to drain them completely.

Though as to why it is only the Exile that can deal with Nihilus? Any other Jedi, he would have drained and it would be done. But with the Exile, having so similar a power, trying to drain the Exile is like trying to drink water from a bowl that is full of holes - it isn't going to work. And since he came to Telos to feed, he is already weak. Then he tries to feed on the exile, which doesn't work, which might be why that fight is so easy.

But in truth, the whole idea of killing to increase strength? A bit of satire on how the game engine itself works. The main source of experience obviously comes from killing enemies, the same way the exile apparently gains experience.

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Old 04-01-2012, 07:17 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by arsenalforever View Post
Vrook to Exile on Dantooine:

"Somehow they [the Sith] have learned their hunger from you"

But I thought that they had learned all this from the Sith teachings in the Trayus Academy? Why does Vrook think that the Exile educated the Sith in feeding on the Force from others?
They learned it from Malachor, ultimately - from the wound that the Exile created there. The masters are kind of right, even if you don't agree with their interpretation of events. Same with Kreia.
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And I think the Masters tried to cut the Exile from the Force on Dantooine because they feared that if he fell to the Dark side, he too will become like Nihilius in order to satisfy his hunger. Am I right?
That's only part of it. They were afraid of the Exile for other reasons, too - and I don't think they all shared the same reasons for what they did. But generally, I think they saw the Exile as a wound in the Force, not a person - and Jedi teachings dictate that wounds in the Force are bad things that should be destroyed or avoided.
Quote:
Another thing I want to understand is, Nihilius learned to feed on other Force sensitives from the Sith teachings, but where did the Exile learn to do this? The Masters call him the "Death of the Force" even though he has not caused any harm. The Exile simply motivates others to stand with him and fight alongside him. He influences their decisions but where does he *FEED* on others?
The Exile is the "Death of the Force" for a few reasons. First, the Exile is proof that life can exist without the Force, something that goes against the teachings of the Jedi. Second, the Exile draws power from something other than the Force - basically, the Exile is a threat to the establishment. But more than that, the Exile has the power to make people question their believes and influence their choices, and could force people to make one critical choice - to turn away from the Force.

As for the feeding thing, that's how the Exile is able to use the Force, with the bonding ability. This seems mostly harmless on its own, but when taken to extremes it can be used to drain the life from other people. This is what Nihilus does, this is what a dark sided Exile does to the masters after killing them, and it's possible even a light-sided Exile does this subconsciously, gaining strength from fallen enemies. Or as we call it, XP.
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Another thing, why doesn't the Exile die when he kills Kreia at the Trayus Core? They have a strong force bond between them, don't they?
This is probably more complicated than all the previous questions combined. It's open to interpretation, but there are two main points I can see:

1. Bonds are between people, and people's relationships can change. When Kreia betrays the Exile, the Exile's feelings for her change, which could result in the dissolution of the bond.

2. What complicates the matter is that even if a normal bond would fade via #1, the Exile's bonds aren't normal. The Exile needs these bonds to feel the Force, through other people. Now, Kreia hates the Force. She criticizes the Jedi and Sith for using the Force as a crutch. Nihilus has the same power as the Exile, but let the hunger consume him. She doesn't want that to happen to the Exile; she wants the Exile to be able to use these bonds without relying on them for survival. So in forcing the Exile to kill her, she achieves this.

But as I said, it's pretty open, like most things in the game. We don't actually know that the Exile could die from one of these bonds, because this never happens. It very well could be a lie told by Kreia to further her schemes, but all her lies tend to have a bit of truth.


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Old 04-02-2012, 06:16 AM   #6
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If any of you have played the M4-78 droid planet via a mod or something, Master Lonna Vash says that the bond between herself and her student broke when the student fell to the dark side. Is that what happened between the Exile and Kreia? The bond was between the Exile and *KRIEA*, not between the Exile and *DARTH TRAYA*, if you know what I mean?

Another thing, wasn't the Levelling up and XP thing there in KOTOR as well? Does that mean that even Revan fed on other force sensitives?
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Old 04-02-2012, 07:33 PM   #7
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Revan was polar opposite to Exile; he was revered as the life of the force, Exile was feared as the death of the force [I don't remember the EXACT quote but it's from dialogue between the Exile and Kreia (aboard the Ebon Hawk)].


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Old 04-02-2012, 08:51 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by arsenalforever View Post
Why is the Exile the only one who can kill Nihilius in a straight up fight?
Because, as a wound in the Force, she is immune to his drainage power. When she confronts him on the Ravager he tries to use it on her, but only exhausts himself in the process.

Quote:
The Jedi Masters cut the Exile off from the force because they fear that she might fall to the Dark side and become like Nihilius. But why would the Exile fall to the Dark side? She worked tirelessly and moved from planet to planet to save the Jedi Masters. If she would have been Dark sided, wouldn't she have killed the Jedi Masters?
Keep in mind that they haven't seen all of her good deeds; and since we know from both the movies and other parts of the EU that dark-siders can mask their alignment, they can't be sure whether she's deceiving them or not. And as others have noted, her status as a wound is bound to affect their judgement of her character a great deal.

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Originally Posted by Rtas Vadum View Post
Though the game does make mention of the idea that, if severed, it would kill them both. But when it is, it is either that it was severed because it was no longer between the same people(i.e between Kreia and the Exile), or because it was a bond, inevitably, between teacher and student, so when she says "I will teach you no longer. Our bond remains, but that is all." The bond likely breaks with the utterance of that first part, and the second is a lie(as Kreia is known to do), though it is possible she would not have known about it.
I call it a plot hole.


"There is something going on in time and space, and beyond time and space, which, whether we like it or not, spells duty." -Winston Churchill

"For of all sad words of tongue or pen, The saddest are these: 'It might have been!'" -John Whittier

"Apathy is death." -Kreia

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Old 04-02-2012, 09:40 PM   #9
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Another thing, wasn't the Levelling up and XP thing there in KOTOR as well? Does that mean that even Revan fed on other force sensitives?[/QUOTE]
Nah, the game mechanics shouldn't be taken too seriously, down that path lies madness. This is just a bit of metafiction to make you think... just don't think about it too much.
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I call it a plot hole.
It's not really a plot hole... there are valid explanations present in the story, it's just not stated clearly and unilaterally.


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Old 04-03-2012, 08:37 PM   #10
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It is a plot hole. What Rtas says, which I quoted, is baseless, for he implies (and you outright state above) that the bond can be broken just because Kreia wants it to be broken - this allegation is contrary to what we learn about it from the first time it's spoken (that it was formed by accident, that it's dangerous, and that they can't get rid of it as far as they know).

To say that the game does not explain it clearly is putting it mildly. The bond is never even mentioned in the game past Telos (that is, Telos after the Jedi are killed on Dantooine), and even then only if the Exile kills Atris, prompting Kreia to contact her and tell her that she has to go to Malachor (since Atris, being dead, can't tell her). What everything about the Force bond that we are told in the actual game adds up to is "If one dies, so does the other." The only part of the game which even suggested that there is a way to get rid of it is the conversation with Vash on M4-78 (or wherever the hell you were supposed to encounter her), and even then, it's hardly comprehensive and leads to plenty of other unanswered questions (IIRC she says that if one turns to the dark side, a bond gets weakened/broken/whatever. But if that's the case, what happens if both members of a bond turn to the dark side at the same time, or if both are dark-sided at the beginning and one starts to drift to the light? And how does this make sense if we consider the fact that Kreia was attuned to the dark side from the beginning?). And, of course, the whole thing got cut from the game anyway.

Thus, during the final conversation at Malachor, neither the Exile nor Kreia even mention the bond (not even in cut dialogue, as far as I've heard, which makes me wonder whether the writers ever even thought of what would actually happen in the ending). The Exile's survival (which technically we don't even see if we go by the light-sided version, only the Ebon Hawk appearing nearby and then flying off) goes without explanation in relation to the Force bond, which is a major aspect of the plot from the beginning of the game. Plot hole.


"There is something going on in time and space, and beyond time and space, which, whether we like it or not, spells duty." -Winston Churchill

"For of all sad words of tongue or pen, The saddest are these: 'It might have been!'" -John Whittier

"Apathy is death." -Kreia
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Old 04-04-2012, 06:03 PM   #11
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First, just because it isn't explained doesn't make it a plot hole; obviously Avellone and the other writers did consider this matter, since they wrote material hinting at an explanation but unfortunately got cut from the final game. So at the very least there is an explanation, it just didn't make it in. That's not a plot hole, that's just unfortunate.

Second, you seem to be ignoring or forgetting certain bits of dialogue that are still in the game that still hints at possible explanations - and indeed, there's always "Kreia was lying", but I'll admit that's not much better than "a wizard did it". But anyway, here's a bit of dialogue:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zez-Kai Ell
A bond between two living beings is not something easily broken. It is not a choice... it is like breaking a feeling. Like turning away from the Force. To break a bond, your feelings would have to change, or one of you would have to die - but even then, the bond wouldn't go away, it would simply... it would simply be empty, a wound.
Now consider:

1. He says breaking a bond is not a choice, like turning away from the Force, and yet the Exile did this already.

2. It's not the act of falling to the dark side that would break the bond, it's the feelings that form the bond changing, causing it to break; Kreia betrays the Exile, the Exile's feelings about her change, simple. What complicates it, as I mentioned earlier, is that the Exile needs these bonds to survive. Kreia talks a lot about how she wants to make the Exile overcome Malachor, become stronger than her, and so on - and killing her is the final test.



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Old 04-05-2012, 11:47 AM   #12
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Yeah, except Zez Kai Ell always says that last part twice haha


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Old 04-05-2012, 12:13 PM   #13
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Yeah, except Zez Kai Ell always says that last part twice haha
*cough* TSLRCM *cough*
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Old 04-07-2012, 11:31 PM   #14
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Also if the Exile chooses the dark sided path in the game, isn't it possible to ally with the Sith?

Don't dark sided masters and padawans share force bonds? JCarter makes sense.
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Old 04-08-2012, 09:36 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by JCarter426 View Post
First, just because it isn't explained doesn't make it a plot hole; obviously Avellone and the other writers did consider this matter, since they wrote material hinting at an explanation but unfortunately got cut from the final game. So at the very least there is an explanation, it just didn't make it in. That's not a plot hole, that's just unfortunate.
Firstly, yes, lack of explanation in the game does make it a plot hole (regardless what amounts of careless design and unfortunate happenstance may or may not be responsible). Take AotC as an example: if the two scenes where Obi-Wan takes the poison dart used by Jango and where he shows it to Dexter - thus establishing Kamino's connection to the assassination plot - were inexplicably not in the film, yet he just showed up at Kamino anyway later on, we would call that a plot hole, wouldn't we?

Better yet, if in KotOR I the player-character's true identity as Revan was to go completely unmentioned after the player leaves the Leviathan, even unto the end of the game - or if Carth's personal connection to Saul Karath was present in your conversations with him but went completely unmentioned on the Leviathan itself - would we not call that a plot hole?

The exact same thing is done with the Exile and Kreia's Force bond here. Past a certain point it is neither mentioned nor seen again.

Quote:
dialogue that are still in the game that still hints at possible explanations - and indeed, there's always "Kreia was lying", but I'll admit that's not much better than "a wizard did it".
I'm glad that you're willing to admit that, but please in any future debates be courteous enough to not even mention the "Kreia = Liar" card, even conjecturally, unless you're willing to bring up a potential motive for her lying in the case of whatever we're talking about.

Quote:
1. He says breaking a bond is not a choice, like turning away from the Force, and yet the Exile did this already.
What is this supposed to prove? So because the Exile from a certain point of view did one thing that was said to be sort of impossible, she can do another? Furthermore, the Exile did not choose to turn from the Force. The Jedi explain that she involuntarily deafened herself to it to defend herself from what happened at Malachor; and Kreia sums it up (depending on your alignment, I think) as either "you were afraid" or "you had no choice".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zez-Kai Ell, on regular Force bonds as he knows them
"A bond between two living beings is not something easily broken. It is not a choice... it is like breaking a feeling. Like turning away from the Force. To break a bond, your feelings would have to change, or one of you would have to die - but even then, the bond wouldn't go away, it would simply... it would simply be empty, a wound."
Quote:
2. It's not the act of falling to the dark side that would break the bond, it's the feelings that form the bond changing, causing it to break; Kreia betrays the Exile, the Exile's feelings about her change, simple.
But everyone in the game after Kreia's betrayal still acts as though the bond is there and completely intact. The Exile's still like "****, if I don't go after her Atris'll kill her and I'll die"; and if she kills Atris, Kreia still contacts her as strongly through their bond as ever, and tells her that she'll kill herself if the Exile doesn't follow her to Malachor.

Further, this entire viewpoint of yours hinges on the assumption that an actual trusting relationship with emotional, that is, feeling-based connections (hence the emphasis above) developed between the Exile and Kreia; but nowhere in the game is this actually a guarantee (not even in the canon timeline, as influence with Kreia is independent of alignment and I don't recall the Revan novel ever weighing in on the matter). It's just as easy for the Exile, from the beginning to the end, to stay away from her as much as possible during the journey, or to never do anything that raises influence with her, or to do all the things that piss her off (which, incidentally, include the majority of the game's light-sided choices) because they don't conform to her teachings - and the bond is still as there as ever, regardless of which path is taken; the same whether Kreia approves or disapproves of you. Isn't that the entire narrative point of the bond - that you, the Exile, are stuck with Kreia no matter how much you hate her or don't trust her? That you can't kill her or get rid of her, and that you have to find a way to get rid of the bond first?

You say that the bond is weakened/broken by the changing of the feelings that formed the bond - but this bond was never formed by feelings in the first place. It was formed unconsciously, unnaturally quickly, and in a completely non-standard manner while both of them were lying comatose in the Peragus Facility's sickbay.


"There is something going on in time and space, and beyond time and space, which, whether we like it or not, spells duty." -Winston Churchill

"For of all sad words of tongue or pen, The saddest are these: 'It might have been!'" -John Whittier

"Apathy is death." -Kreia

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Old 04-09-2012, 04:49 AM   #16
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Firstly, yes, lack of explanation in the game does make it a plot hole (regardless what amounts of careless design and unfortunate happenstance may or may not be responsible). Take AotC as an example: if the two scenes where Obi-Wan takes the poison dart used by Jango and where he shows it to Dexter - thus establishing Kamino's connection to the assassination plot - were inexplicably not in the film, yet he just showed up at Kamino anyway later on, we would call that a plot hole, wouldn't we?

Better yet, if in KotOR I the player-character's true identity as Revan was to go completely unmentioned after the player leaves the Leviathan, even unto the end of the game - or if Carth's personal connection to Saul Karath was present in your conversations with him but went completely unmentioned on the Leviathan itself - would we not call that a plot hole?

The exact same thing is done with the Exile and Kreia's Force bond here. Past a certain point it is neither mentioned nor seen again.
It's not the same scenario at all because the explanation is already there. It's just not stated in as clear terms at the end of the game. Like a lot of things, it's left open to your interpretation. Your interpretation seems to be "there is no possible interpretation", but I don't agree with that. There are clues throughout the game.
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I'm glad that you're willing to admit that, but please in any future debates be courteous enough to not even mention the "Kreia = Liar" card, even conjecturally, unless you're willing to bring up a potential motive for her lying in the case of whatever we're talking about.
She has plenty of motive, but that's beside the point since this is simply one possible explanation, and I don't think it explains everything myself.

Quote:
What is this supposed to prove? So because the Exile from a certain point of view did one thing that was said to be sort of impossible, she can do another?
I'm just pointing out that no one in the game really seems to know how the Force works, and you're basing your argument on the fact that because the certain characters can't explain certain events means there is no possible explanation, when that's clearly not true.
Quote:
Furthermore, the Exile did not choose to turn from the Force. The Jedi explain that she involuntarily deafened herself to it to defend herself from what happened at Malachor; and Kreia sums it up (depending on your alignment, I think) as either "you were afraid" or "you had no choice".
Wait, wait, wait. The only line that suggests it was not a choice is the one you mentioned, which is only for the dark sided Exile anyway - and that version if the story is filled with so many plot holes that there's no point in arguing about it. In any case, it is repeatedly referred to as the Exile's choice, by everyone in the game - Kreia, the masters, Atris, even Sion. It may have been an unconscious choice, but it was still a choice.
Quote:
But everyone in the game after Kreia's betrayal still acts as though the bond is there and completely intact. The Exile's still like "****, if I don't go after her Atris'll kill her and I'll die"
Yes, but... well, Kreia lies. And yes, there is a motivation for it - as you said, she manipulates the Exile with this information.
Quote:
and if she kills Atris, Kreia still contacts her as strongly through their bond as ever, and tells her that she'll kill herself if the Exile doesn't follow her to Malachor.
No, this is incorrect. In the scene you are thinking of, this is just a projection of Kreia from Atris' Sith holocrons; Kreia specifically says she is not contacting the Exile through the bond. This might mean the bond is already weaker at this point.

But I don't see how this is relevant. The threat is only meant to get you to Malachor; by then, Kreia has you where she wants you. So even if killing Kreia will kill you, you don't really have a choice because she'll kill you if you don't anyway. So the Exile's survival is the only issue.

Second, at no point is it suggested that you'll die if you kill Kreia; the only concern is someone else killing Kreia and the Exile feeling Kreia's pain so strongly that it would be lethal. Note that it only happens once in the game (and once more in cut content) and it only happens when it does because the Exile is caught by surprise. Kreia explains that when they are in battle, their minds are more focused. So if they are battling each other, it shouldn't be any different. In short, Kreia threatens to kill herself if you won't come to Malachor to fight her; this very well might kill you. However, this doesn't prevent you from killing her yourself.
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Further, this entire viewpoint of yours hinges on the assumption that an actual trusting relationship with emotional, that is, feeling-based connections (hence the emphasis above) developed between the Exile and Kreia; but nowhere in the game is this actually a guarantee (not even in the canon timeline, as influence with Kreia is independent of alignment and I don't recall the Revan novel ever weighing in on the matter). It's just as easy for the Exile, from the beginning to the end, to stay away from her as much as possible during the journey, or to never do anything that raises influence with her, or to do all the things that piss her off (which, incidentally, include the majority of the game's light-sided choices) because they don't conform to her teachings - and the bond is still as there as ever, regardless of which path is taken; the same whether Kreia approves or disapproves of you. Isn't that the entire narrative point of the bond - that you, the Exile, are stuck with Kreia no matter how much you hate her or don't trust her? That you can't kill her or get rid of her, and that you have to find a way to get rid of the bond first?

You say that the bond is weakened/broken by the changing of the feelings that formed the bond - but this bond was never formed by feelings in the first place. It was formed unconsciously, unnaturally quickly, and in a completely non-standard manner while both of them were lying comatose in the Peragus Facility's sickbay.
First, that's not the entire basis of my viewpoint. The entire basis of my viewpoint is that there are several explanations for how the bond could have broken, based on hints that are present in the game. Just because it isn't clearly stated doesn't mean it isn't there.

Second, while that's an interesting point, this isn't something that's established in the game. We don't know that the bond doesn't act any differently from a normal bond - at least, what little we are told about how normal bonds work to begin with - apart from the fact that it was formed more quickly and appears stronger than normal bonds. Neither of these facts precludes it from behaving like a normal bond in any other respect - i.e. based on the feelings between the bonded individuals. The Exile's ability is unusual, not necessarily unnatural.

In any case, there are a lot of possible explanations that are present in the game. If you want to ignore them, that's your business.



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Old 04-09-2012, 12:07 PM   #17
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Kreia wants to use the Exile to end the force and start echoes which never reach the end, and which keep echoing throughout the galaxy. But this doesn't make sense?


I understand that the Exile was a strong user of the Force and she DID cut herself off from the Force at Malachor because if she would not have done so, she would have died due to the number of bonds she had formed.

But what I don't understand is, how Kreia wants to use this trait of the Exile to end the Force? And if the bond never really existed between the Exile and Kreia, why did the Exile feel the pain when Sion cut Kreia's hand off? I really don't understand what Kreia achieved by doing what she did with the Exile
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Old 04-09-2012, 08:05 PM   #18
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But what I don't understand is, how Kreia wants to use this trait of the Exile to end the Force? And if the bond never really existed between the Exile and Kreia, why did the Exile feel the pain when Sion cut Kreia's hand off? I really don't understand what Kreia achieved by doing what she did with the Exile
In the instance that Sion cuts her hand off, the Exile couldn't possibly be prepared, nor could he/she have known it was going to happen. Where at any other point in the game that the Exile has Kreia in the party, it is obvious from the start that she might be injured, along with it being obvious to Kreia that the Exile might take a few hits(which, in most cases it isn't grievous wounds, but still...). Kreia explains this when you first talk to her aboard the Hawk.

The only instances which might not make sense with this logic, are the one(or two) times which the party is supposed to believe the Exile is dead. Either way, it is likely either Kreia would be able to prepare herself in some way, or in the instance within the Enclave(if that is one of the instances), then, in some way, Kreia was prepared for it to happen, even if the Exile wasn't.

As for her goal, if it can be achieved as such, who knows. For one, the very reason that she wanted to do something like that, is purely because she viewed it like a disease, something that might not kill her, but still something that is going to dictate her actions. Consider that she was a Sith Lord, and a Jedi Master, and that both sides exiled her at some point. Through this, she didn't look at the sides to hate, she looked at what stands at the core of both - the force itself. But that isn't it. Another goal she has, is to dispose of the current Jedi/Sith, so their ideals will fade, as new ones rise to replace them. The reason you have to kill her, even as a Jedi, is because her very nature has her do the things she hates, because she is still part of the Jedi/Sith that she wishes to eliminate.

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Old 04-10-2012, 11:33 PM   #19
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And how does she exactly plan to end the Force using the Exile?
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Old 04-11-2012, 03:03 PM   #20
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Old 04-11-2012, 07:13 PM   #21
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And how does she exactly plan to end the Force using the Exile?
The same thing that happened to the Exile, but to force it on anyone who can feel/use the force. To create an echo so large, it is felt by all, forcing them to either sever their connection to the force, or die in the attempt.

As for what an echo is, it seems to be almost any event, but the sort wanted here is of the traumatic sort. Such as Malachor, when the Exile stood on the bridge of a ship, watching as those around Malachor where sucked into the planet's gravity well, destroying them and killing their occupants. Being so close, being able to hear it so loudly, the Exile needed to abandon the force, to survive, if nothing else.

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Old 04-13-2012, 07:28 AM   #22
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I understand that echoes and disturbances occur in the Force when many deaths take place at once or due to mass destruction. But these echoes could be created by Nihilius and the other Sith who were capable of mass destruction. What I don't understand is why Kreia couldn't achieve what she wanted WITHOUT the Exile?

Also I found this bit on Wookiepedia:

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Traya then returned to Malachor V, where she intended to sacrifice herself to open up the larger wound in the Force in order to destroy it
What does the above line mean?

Also there is a cut scene in which Kreia expresses her disgust for machines and electrocutes T3-M4. What is the significance of this scene in the story

Another thing which comes in my mind is, how did Kreia and T3-M4 reunite and take possession of the Ebon Hawk in the first place?

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Old 04-13-2012, 02:04 PM   #23
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I understand that echoes and disturbances occur in the Force when many deaths take place at once or due to mass destruction. But these echoes could be created by Nihilius and the other Sith who were capable of mass destruction. What I don't understand is why Kreia couldn't achieve what she wanted WITHOUT the Exile?
The Exile is an open wound. Where Nihilus might be as well, the idea that she could approach him for such a task is unlikely. But since the Exile is obviously more open to influence, more susceptible to being pointed in the direction Kreia wanted, it makes it somewhat obvious who she would chose.

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Also there is a cut scene in which Kreia expresses her disgust for machines and electrocutes T3-M4. What is the significance of this scene in the story
You can't influence a machine, like you can a man. Where it would be easy for her to direct a human or alien to do as she wished, with a machine, she could not. She lacks knowledge on the inner workings of droids and the like, though she might have some base knowledge of piloting, if nothing else. But as to why she would attack T3, is due to the fact that she hates that the Exile would rely on something she cannot completely understand and control. When you obtain her help in learning to read thoughts, she mentions that she cannot hear anything from the droids, where the exile could 'hear' a catch in the hyper-drive, due to he or she having some knowledge of machines.

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Another thing which comes in my mind is, how did Kreia and T3-M4 reunite and take possession of the Ebon Hawk in the first place?
Kreia says that Revan left "the Hawk and it's machines" behind(presumably on Malachor, though where is anyone's guess). I'd guess that Kreia would've simply found the hawk after she was betrayed by the Sith, and left the planet on it.

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Old 04-15-2012, 02:53 AM   #24
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Okay so the Exile is an open wound in the Force but how does making the Exile kill her at Malachor help her achieve what she wanted? How does all this create echoes in the Force?

Another thing, was it the mass destruction and loss of countless lives at Malachor the reason for the echoes in the Force, or was it the the action of the Exile which cut her off from the Force responsible for the echoes?

What would have happened if the Exile had died at the Trayus Academy? Would Kreia's mission be accomplished?

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The Force existed in all life, and when many lives were extinguished, especially in a short period of time, a wound was created.
But Kreia's plan did NOT involve the loss of many lives in a short period of time. It only involved battling the Exile at the Malachor. But how would such a battle create an echo?

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Old 04-15-2012, 03:52 AM   #25
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Okay so the Exile is an open wound in the Force but how does making the Exile kill her at Malachor help her achieve what she wanted? How does all this create echoes in the Force?
By that point, her goal had changed, though it was a simplified version of her previous one. Having the Exile kill her on Malachor is for one reason - she is the last remaining member of the Jedi Order, and of the Sith. With her death, the ideals that destroyed the Jedi, and tore apart the Sith(even though Sith rarely change) would die with her.

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Another thing, was it the mass destruction and loss of countless lives at Malachor the reason for the echoes in the Force, or was it the the action of the Exile which cut her off from the Force responsible for the echoes?
It isn't just Malachor. Dantooine, Telos, and even Taris(even if this isn't a location in the game) are places in which an echo can be felt. However, the echo caused by Malachor is different, in it can be felt within the Exile.

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What would have happened if the Exile had died at the Trayus Academy? Would Kreia's mission be accomplished?
No, since she would still be alive. Her wish to destroy the force does go along with the fact that she holds on to ideals of the Jedi and the Sith, and if she does not die, either by the Exile's hand, or with the death of the force, her entire plan fails. It might still be successful if no one could use the force, but I don't think it goes that far.

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But Kreia's plan did NOT involve the loss of many lives in a short period of time. It only involved battling the Exile at the Malachor. But how would such a battle create an echo?
Beyond Jedi or Sith in hiding, or those who have given up the force, she and the Exile are similar. By that, I mean that Kreia has been a part of the Jedi and the Sith, while the Exile, is the last of the Jedi(even if it is just in name only). Either of their deaths is going to cause an echo, and one of them must die. With the Exile, the Jedi falls, and Kreia would see the end of the force, if such a thing is possible. And of course, with Kreia's death, again, the former order, and ideals of the Jedi and Sith die, while a new order is allowed to replace them, perhaps avoiding the failings which were so prevalent.

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Old 04-15-2012, 05:48 AM   #26
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No, since she would still be alive. Her wish to destroy the force does go along with the fact that she holds on to ideals of the Jedi and the Sith, and if she does not die, either by the Exile's hand, or with the death of the force, her entire plan fails. It might still be successful if no one could use the force, but I don't think it goes that far.
Why would her plan fail if someone other than the Exile kills her?


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Either of their deaths is going to cause an echo,
But echoes are caused when many lives are extinguished at once. Kenobi felt it when Darth Vader destroyed Alderaan, The Jedi on Dantooine felt it when Malak destroyed Taris but how could the death of a single individual like the Exile or Kreia send an echo in the force?

The Exile is not the last of the Jedi, what about the Lost Jedi like Atton, Bao-Dur, Mical, Visas, Mira?
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Old 04-15-2012, 06:28 AM   #27
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Why would her plan fail if someone other than the Exile kills her?




But echoes are caused when many lives are extinguished at once. Kenobi felt it when Darth Vader destroyed Alderaan, The Jedi on Dantooine felt it when Malak destroyed Taris but how could the death of a single individual like the Exile or Kreia send an echo in the force?

The Exile is not the last of the Jedi, what about the Lost Jedi like Atton, Bao-Dur, Mical, Visas, Mira?
I feel we need to clarify. Echoes and wounds are not the same. Echoes are created by the latter but not only. It was underlined in TSL that even small things can leave the mark upon the galaxy and the death of powerful force user would qualify for that. (like Sidious's death was felt across the Galaxy by those attuned to the Force)

The Exile is the last of the Jedi from certain point of view. In other words (s)he is the last from the old Order, while his/her students will create a new Order. Or to be more specific, Exile has ties to the old order but (s)he is not rooted in it like Kreia.
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Old 04-15-2012, 07:36 AM   #28
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And why would Kreia's plan fail if she was killed by someone other than the Exile? So echoes are created when a strong force user dies? Suppose an echo is sent when a strong force user dies, say the Exile, how would you compare the magnitude of this echo with that of the wound created when a planet, say Katarr is devastated? Kreia wanted a WOUND right?

And can we draw any points of similarity in the bonds shared by Kreia and the Exile and that shared by Nihilius and Visas Marr? Did the bond between the latter break when Visas' alignment changed?

The Exile is termed as a wound in the force because he was able to (involuntarily) give up the Force while other Jedi who fought in the Mandalorian wars didn't NEED to break their connection to the force because they didn't have the ability to form such strong bonds with companions like the Exile did and even if they DID form strong bonds with companions, they had become so dependent on the Force that they couldn't break their connection to it, right?

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After Surik defeated Traya, she ordered the generator's activation, destroying the planet and sealing the wound, once and for all
The Exile herself was the wound, then how does destroying Malachor seal the wound?

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You are a breach that must be closed. You transmit your pain, your suffering through the Force. Within you we see something worse than the teachings of the Sith. What you carry may mean the death of the Force… and the death of the Jedi.
How does the exile transmit pain and suffering through the Force?

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Thereafter, Surik was deafened to the Force, but she continued to project the echoes of the suffering that she had witnessed
Is there any example of Surik (The Exile) projecting the echoes of the suffering that she had witnessed?

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Old 04-15-2012, 04:17 PM   #29
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And why would Kreia's plan fail if she was killed by someone other than the Exile? So echoes are created when a strong force user dies? Suppose an echo is sent when a strong force user dies, say the Exile, how would you compare the magnitude of this echo with that of the wound created when a planet, say Katarr is devastated? Kreia wanted a WOUND right?
You do realize that there is literally no one else to kill her? Sion? He knows he can't, and doesn't even seem to try. The Jedi you've trained? They try that, and it doesn't work. So the Exile is the only one who can, mostly because she is the only one around that can.

As for the echo, it is simple. With her death, the ideals of the old Jedi order die with her. Thus, an echo.

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The Exile is termed as a wound in the force because he was able to (involuntarily) give up the Force while other Jedi who fought in the Mandalorian wars didn't NEED to break their connection to the force because they didn't have the ability to form such strong bonds with companions like the Exile did and even if they DID form strong bonds with companions, they had become so dependent on the Force that they couldn't break their connection to it, right?
Imagine the the Exile forming these bonds as her making friends. Perhaps not good friends, but still people that she would know enough about to care, perhaps even some of them Jedi she would be close with, etc. Then imagine the deaths at Malachor, these Jedi that she has connections to, are killed, almost before her eyes(admittedly it was that she watched from the bridge of a ship, but still...). As this happens, not only does she feel it, she feels their emotions, their screams, their pain.

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Old 04-16-2012, 10:58 AM   #30
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Kreia could have allowed herself to be killed by Sion on the Harbinger. I don't understand why she underwent the pain of befriending the Exile, teaching her stuff, and finally betraying her.

I know she has a grudge with the Force as she was exiled by BOTH the Jedi and the Sith, and it is the Force which drives both these parties.

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As for the echo, it is simple. With her death, the ideals of the old Jedi order die with her. Thus, an echo.
So Kreia's death will cause echoes as you mentioned because the ideals of the old Jedi Order would die with her, but how does dying at the hands of the Exile increase the magnitude of the echoes?

Wouldn't echoes by generated if she died at the hands of someone else like Sion on the Harbinger?

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After Surik defeated Traya, she ordered the generator's activation, destroying the planet and sealing the wound, once and for all
The Exile herself was the wound, then how does destroying Malachor seal the wound?
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Old 04-20-2012, 02:40 PM   #31
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Kreia could have allowed herself to be killed by Sion on the Harbinger. I don't understand why she underwent the pain of befriending the Exile, teaching her stuff, and finally betraying her.
If she had allowed Sion to kill her there, it would have been foolish. What would've stopped him from tracking the Exile down and killing her, since at that point(even if it would be some time after escaping Peragus), it is doubtful the Exile could take him on and win. There is also the possibliy of the Exile dying along with her, but that is obvious at this point. Also, with Kreia gone, the Exile has no teacher, and also no direction. No notion of where the other Jedi are, much less a reason to seek them out.

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So Kreia's death will cause echoes as you mentioned because the ideals of the old Jedi Order would die with her, but how does dying at the hands of the Exile increase the magnitude of the echoes?
With her death at the hands of the Exile, at that point on Malachor, it allows for things that it wouldn't otherwise. Say if the Exile finds out about her being a Sith on the Ebon Hawk, and kills her right there. That still leaves Nihilus, Sion, along with Atris and any other Jedi that remain, all set in their views of the force, and the galaxy. Perhaps it would work out the same way, but the Enclave scenes would not, especially if playing a LS Exile.

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The Exile herself was the wound, then how does destroying Malachor seal the wound?
If it does, or if sealing them is possible, I can't say. It is just like real places that have had tragic events happen. So long as there is anyone to tell the story, or someone to know of it, the event doesn't fade from memory, even if it might be from the memory of someone who only learned of the event from a book, or a teacher. Even if Malachor is destroyed, that does not change the fact that people died there, nor does it change what happened. But the main reason for the Planet's destruction is the Sith presence, along with the knowledge that is within the Academy.

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Old 04-24-2012, 04:26 AM   #32
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Hmm, anyone knows when Kreia meet with Revan for the last time? It was before he left for the Mandalorian Wars, right? Or is there a chance they met on Malachor V? Before Revan left for Unknown Regions. My memories about that are bit clouded. (yea i know, that according to the new canon he wasn't even there but let's stick to what's in the game;p)
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Old 04-24-2012, 06:45 AM   #33
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Hmm, anyone knows when Kreia meet with Revan for the last time? It was before he left for the Mandalorian Wars, right? Or is there a chance they met on Malachor V? Before Revan left for Unknown Regions. My memories about that are bit clouded. (yea i know, that according to the new canon he wasn't even there but let's stick to what's in the game;p)
Probably before the Mandalorian wars, due to him going to her, to find out "how one would best leave the order". It is possible that she gained power as a Sith, just as Revan would've began remembering what he'd forgotten, though it happening just after he'd left the Ebon Hawk and T3 on Malachor seems more probable, since it would be sometime after the end of K1 that she becomes such, and sometime before the start of TSL that she is betrayed by the Sith.

As for him not being on Malachor in TOR's canon, it has to leave much of TSL in the dust, aside from the Exile, namely the very thing that almost runs the plot of TSL, or is at least, an integral part of it. What is that? Not the Exile, but the Ebon Hawk. If the idea is, that if Revan left it and T3 on Malachor, Kreia would've used it after her betrayal by Sion and Nihilus, to leave Malachor and seek out the Exile. Also, if it means he'd never set foot on Malachor(during or after the Mandalorian wars, or even after the end of the Jedi Civil war, when he would've remembered the planet), only viewing it from a ship, how could he possibly know about the real threat, since that is where TSL says he learned of it? But either way, I can't see how it fits, if Revan was never on Malachor.


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Old 04-24-2012, 08:00 AM   #34
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Kreia's lucky that Sion and Nihlius let her leave out of Malachor alive. The Sith are not known for such acts of kindness lol

Kreia only wants to die to create echoes doesn't she? It doesn't matter who kills her as long as she ends up dead right? No matter who kills her, the ideals of the Old Jedi Order die with her right?

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After Surik defeated Traya, she ordered the generator's activation, destroying the planet and sealing the wound, once and for all
I got this line from Wookiepedia.

And Rtas Vadum, what is your opinion on the bond shared by Visas Marr and Nihilius?
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Old 04-25-2012, 04:34 PM   #35
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Kreia's lucky that Sion and Nihlius let her leave out of Malachor alive. The Sith are not known for such acts of kindness lol
They didn't let her live. They thought they had killed her. She is difficult to kill.
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Kreia only wants to die to create echoes doesn't she? It doesn't matter who kills her as long as she ends up dead right? No matter who kills her, the ideals of the Old Jedi Order die with her right?
No, she wants her apprentice to kill her - that's the way of the Sith, and fits with her philosophy of learning through conflict. The Exile gave up the Force and Kreia respects that, she wants the Exile to grow stronger. And it's also a bit of an ego trip, because none of her other apprentices could kill her, which would suggest she's a horrible teacher who, without the Exile, would leave behind no legacy.


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Old 04-28-2012, 06:30 AM   #36
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Wounds in the Force were created whenever a massive loss of life occurred. All life in the galaxy was interconnected and when a significant number of lives were suddenly ended, the Force sustained a localized injury much like a sentient who had lost a limb. The epicenter of the wound became a dark place, filled with the reverberating echoes of the pain, terror, and suffering of the life forms who had lost their lives. Wounds in the Force were most often centered in astrographical locations where traumatic events took place, such as Malachor V or Alderaan, but they could also form within individuals such as Meetra Surik or Darth Nihilus.

So the death of Kreia at the hands of the Exile would create echoes because with her death die the ideals of the old jedi order right? And she wants to continue the "tradition" of the Sith in which the apprentice kills the master once the former is stronger?

And why does Wookiepedia say that the final destruction of Malachor "sealed" the wound?

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It seems that at the times of stress - and pain, if it catches us unawares, then the pain is transmitted between us
Kreia says the above line to the Exile on the Ebon Hawk. She wasn't lying this time and at Malachor, the two of them were not caught unaware, thus Kreia's death DID NOT lead to the Exile's death.

Another thing, when Moza the Ithorian visits us on Telos for the first time in Residential Module 082 he says that upon the Exile's arrival, Chodo Habat felt a "disturbance or echo in the force"

So does even a simple thing like the Exile's arrival on Telos create echoes in the Force? Just because of what the Exile went through at Malachor V, his arrival on planets can be sensed by other Force sensitives?

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Old 04-28-2012, 03:14 PM   #37
Obi-Wan Bologna
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Originally Posted by arsenalforever View Post
So the death of Kreia at the hands of the Exile would create echoes because with her death die the ideals of the old jedi order right? And she wants to continue the "tradition" of the Sith in which the apprentice kills the master once the former is stronger?

And why does Wookiepedia say that the final destruction of Malachor "sealed" the wound?



Kreia says the above line to the Exile on the Ebon Hawk. She wasn't lying this time and at Malachor, the two of them were not caught unaware, thus Kreia's death DID NOT lead to the Exile's death.

Another thing, when Moza the Ithorian visits us on Telos for the first time in Residential Module 082 he says that upon the Exile's arrival, Chodo Habat felt a "disturbance or echo in the force"

So does even a simple thing like the Exile's arrival on Telos create echoes in the Force? Just because of what the Exile went through at Malachor V, his arrival on planets can be sensed by other Force sensitives?
Well that is nothing new, we knew of that in the first Star Wars movie where Vader senses Obi-Wan on board the Death Star


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Old 04-29-2012, 10:05 AM   #38
arsenalforever
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I wanted to ask something about Nihilius too. He showed something to Visas which ruined her ability to see through the Force. What did he show her? Did her eyes function normally before?

And what does she do to the Exile's eyes when we first encounter and fight with her? I asked Kreia but she says that Visas didn't do anything.

And just because she lost to the Exile, Visas stopped serving Nihilus? How come?

Is there a way to use her Force sight in the game? I tried looking using Visas in first person mode but wasn't able to see anything special?
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Old 04-29-2012, 02:32 PM   #39
TKA-001
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And what does she do to the Exile's eyes when we first encounter and fight with her? I asked Kreia but she says that Visas didn't do anything.
As I understand it, during your fight with Visas she's supposed to hit you with some Force power that makes it so you see everything through the funky technicolor Force sight effect; but it was cut or they forgot to actually put that part in, but the dialogue where you discuss it with Kreia still remains.

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And just because she lost to the Exile, Visas stopped serving Nihilus? How come?
I don't quite remember it all, but I figure that she got screwed up in the head when she fails to capture you, and you don't kill her. And if you're male, then after the Jedi get killed on Dantooine she gives you some sappy talk about how she loved you ever since she felt you through the Force or some ****. I only remember bits and pieces.

Furthermore, Nihilus told Visas to bring you to her; so I imagine that in some sense Visas considers herself to be fulfilling that assignment by protecting you, and you plan on running into Nihilus eventually anyway.

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Is there a way to use her Force sight in the game? I tried looking using Visas in first person mode but wasn't able to see anything special?
It should work when you use first-person mode as either Visas or Kreia; I think that it doesn't work unless the game is patched or something, but I don't remember. I also think that if you have high enough influence with Visas you can ask her to teach you the Force sight thingy, and it's like a power you can activate which, while it does create the visual effect, doesn't actually do anything.


"There is something going on in time and space, and beyond time and space, which, whether we like it or not, spells duty." -Winston Churchill

"For of all sad words of tongue or pen, The saddest are these: 'It might have been!'" -John Whittier

"Apathy is death." -Kreia
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Old 05-02-2012, 07:38 AM   #40
arsenalforever
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Taken aboard Nihilus's ship, she awoke to find that the flesh where her eyes would have been had been removed. Distraught, she sought out the Dark Lord, questioning why she alone had been spared.

Fractured and vulnerable at best, overwhelmed by the dark power surrounding him, Marr allowed Nihilus to take her for his own. In an attempt to make her believe in his cause, Nihilus showed her a vision, forcing her to see the galaxy in a way that her people never could; sentient beings on other planets, disconnected from the life surrounding them, unable to feel the Force.

The vision severely damaged Marr's Force Sight—which she, as a Miraluka, had to solely rely on, having no physical sight—and she became convinced that all life must die.

I found the above lines on Wookiepedia but they don't seem to make any sense? What did Nihilus show Visas?

And I believe that the Exile's reconnection to the Force sent out echoes which was the reason that Nihilus and Visas sensed her in the first place? Am I right?
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