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Old 09-30-2011, 03:25 AM   #1
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[SPOILER ALERT] If Traya had won...

...her duel against the Exile, what might she have done next?
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Old 09-30-2011, 02:15 PM   #2
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She would have carried on killing the Force.


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Old 09-30-2011, 03:20 PM   #3
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Either that, or she'd die as a result of her bond with the Exile.


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"Apathy is death." -Kreia
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Old 09-30-2011, 04:17 PM   #4
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killing the Force.
And people ask why I hate TSL...



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Old 09-30-2011, 09:14 PM   #5
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Meh, just figure that her plan of being able to do it was only a theory.


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"For of all sad words of tongue or pen, The saddest are these: 'It might have been!'" -John Whittier

"Apathy is death." -Kreia
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Old 09-30-2011, 09:34 PM   #6
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Meh, just figure that her plan of being able to do it was only a theory.
It's still a big part/plot of the game thanks to Avellone's anti-religious stance.



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Old 09-30-2011, 10:01 PM   #7
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I'd like to hear more detailed thoughts of yours on this element of the plot (since you seem to have opinions on its significance both outside of the story and within).


"There is something going on in time and space, and beyond time and space, which, whether we like it or not, spells duty." -Winston Churchill

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"Apathy is death." -Kreia
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Old 10-01-2011, 02:31 AM   #8
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My .02:

If "the Force" in Star Wars is akin to a godlike entity, and the tenets of the Jedi and Sith are analogous to religion, then Kreia trying to "kill the Force" is like her trying to "kill God". If she would have succeeded, this would therefore have proven that the teachings on both sides of the Jedi/Sith conflict were wrong. However, what Kreia discovers at the end of TSL is that "killing the Force/God" is futile and impossible. The Exile physically lived without the Force, being cut off from it, but s/he was also in severe emotional and metaphysical/spiritual pain. Chodo Habat noticed this, along with many other characters.

As for Kreia? I'm wondering how she re-learned the Force, and heard it "sing" within her after she was stripped of her power by Sion and Nihilus. If she hated the Force that much, then why would she choose to use it again? To "learn how to kill it", as she said on Malachor V? Maybe, and perhaps she really believed this, but ultimately she admits that even this was a lame excuse to hide her dependence on the Force.
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Old 10-01-2011, 04:35 AM   #9
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As for Kreia? I'm wondering how she re-learned the Force, and heard it "sing" within her after she was stripped of her power by Sion and Nihilus.
She does it in the same way that Revan and the Exile do - even if they had other forms of help that Kreia didn't. The reason she is technically "weak" at the beginning of the game. Maybe she does know more than the player, but the same could be said about Bastilia/Juhani/Jolee in the first game. I'd imagine that, even if being stripped of her power meant that she was weaker, it doesn't mean that she would've forgotten what she knew so easily.


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If she hated the Force that much, then why would she choose to use it again? To "learn how to kill it", as she said on Malachor V? Maybe, and perhaps she really believed this, but ultimately she admits that even this was a lame excuse to hide her dependence on the Force.
It's the same as hating guns, yet a situation presents itself where using the gun is the only way survival can be assured - no matter if it is you that wants to, or you want to save someone else. Or, it could be that that, whatever it is you hate, that very thing could be integral to your goal.

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Old 10-01-2011, 05:57 PM   #10
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this is very interesting thread. also I do think she could kill the force due to Malachor 5 unique status within the galaxy. By killing a wound within a wound in the force might have an interesting effect.

Also non force senstives probaly not be effect by the loss of the force if it was going to happen. Mainly due to their low connection to the force. conversly the stronger connection to the force, more painful to have the force to be stripped from you.
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Old 10-01-2011, 08:38 PM   #11
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Do you think Traya would have killed--or recruited--the remnants of the followers of Sion and Nihilus? What do you think she would have done about the Republic--let it stand and not interfere with its operations, "laissez-faire" style, or would she have undermined it?
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Old 10-01-2011, 10:14 PM   #12
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Also non force senstives probaly not be effect by the loss of the force if it was going to happen. Mainly due to their low connection to the force..
Considering how closely the Force is tied to all life, it's more likely that its removal from existence would kill virtually all life in the universe. Keep also in mind that individuals who have been "cut off from" the Force are not literally so, rather blocked from using it.

Now that I think of it, what the hell is the Exile, anyway, and what is the significance of it? She is said to "live without the Force", yet can still use it ("You can feel the Force, but you cannot feel yourself"). The ordeal at Malachor deafened her to the Force, yet she regains power later in much the same way as others who lost their Force powers (Revan, Kyle Katarn, etc).


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Old 10-02-2011, 09:11 AM   #13
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I'd like to hear more detailed thoughts of yours on this element of the plot (since you seem to have opinions on its significance both outside of the story and within).
It's just the ridiculousness of the overall concept. I mean, killing the Force? Really? Being the Force an established existing and omnipresent entity, who would think of killing it, and how? It just doesn't work in Star Wars, and the reason behind Avellone's idea only make me hate it even more.



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Old 10-02-2011, 11:01 AM   #14
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Kreia's motives for killing the Force are pretty well-established in the game. First, she's butthurt over being rejected by both the Jedi and Sith Orders - and no doubt her anger at this is amplified by how she has her own philosophies and teachings are are relatively unique, especially to the Jedi. Second, she somehow has it in her head that the Force controls everyone's fate in some sort of game of balance - and being a control freak, she can't stand that possibility.

Sure, from an in-universe perspective, killing the Force is an incredibly bad idea (assuming it would work) and Kreia has no actual evidence to support her second motive, but I figure that's kind of the point - she's evil. She's the main villain, remember? I know that Avellone has rather shamelessly stated that she's his primary mouthpiece for his own problems with the Star Wars universe, but that changes jack in the context of the story itself.


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"Apathy is death." -Kreia
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Old 10-02-2011, 12:21 PM   #15
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Second, she somehow has it in her head that the Force controls everyone's fate in some sort of game of balance - and being a control freak, she can't stand that possibility.
The Force is an entity that controls and regulates itself and does this 'game of balance'. That makes it analogous to the concept of Fate, which is often linked with God. In a sense, where people believe that the Force is an element like air or earth, Kreia believes the Force is a self-righting, god-like entity playing both the Jedi and the Sith for fools. She seeks to correct this by killing this god and bringing true Free Will into the picture.


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Old 10-02-2011, 01:00 PM   #16
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Jedi Exile and Nihilus are supposed to be black holes of the force. And supposedly that both of them uses force bonds to "feel" the force without being in the force.

Kotor 2 is a good game but just confusing at times for various reasons.
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Old 10-04-2011, 10:27 AM   #17
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It's just the ridiculousness of the overall concept. I mean, killing the Force? Really? Being the Force an established existing and omnipresent entity, who would think of killing it, and how? It just doesn't work in Star Wars, and the reason behind Avellone's idea only make me hate it even more.
At least it's original - for Star Wars.


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Old 10-19-2011, 05:09 PM   #18
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...

Kotor 2 is a good game but just confusing at times for various reasons.
You forgot daunting in its unfinishedness and sometimes disgusting in its characters... well, I'm talking about Kreia



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Old 10-19-2011, 08:59 PM   #19
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Kreia is awesome and a good villian
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Old 10-20-2011, 01:41 AM   #20
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I would really have liked to have seen just how Kreia/Traya would have "killed" the force.


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Old 10-20-2011, 02:48 PM   #21
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Echos in the force would be overbearing to the point that the people would either die or become numb to the force.
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Old 10-20-2011, 03:26 PM   #22
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Precisely. So all Traya'd have to do is sit around and make sure no one screws up what's going on with Malachor. Unfortunately this is only explained during one of the planet's loading screen facts.


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"For of all sad words of tongue or pen, The saddest are these: 'It might have been!'" -John Whittier

"Apathy is death." -Kreia
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Old 10-20-2011, 03:45 PM   #23
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This "loading screen fact" is only revealed once you're ON Malachor, right?
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Old 10-20-2011, 06:39 PM   #24
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Now that I think of it, what the hell is the Exile, anyway, and what is the significance of it? She is said to "live without the Force", yet can still use it ("You can feel the Force, but you cannot feel yourself"). The ordeal at Malachor deafened her to the Force, yet she regains power later in much the same way as others who lost their Force powers (Revan, Kyle Katarn, etc).
The in-game explanation is that the Exile syphon's the force from your companions and is additionally some sort of "Force Black Hole". Although I supose I'd look at it differently that the Exile underwent a healing being around people again, having been away for so long; the relationships and force bonds, caused the Exile to feel the force again; but of course that's only my thoughts on *my Exile*.

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Originally Posted by Vrook (is an ass)
"When you returned to us, we saw what had happened. You carry all those deaths at Malachor within you, and it has left a hole, a hunger that cannot be filled."

"You are a cipher, forming bonds, leeching the life of others, siphoning their will and dominating them. [...] You are a breach that must be closed. You transmit your pain, your suffering through the Force. Within you we see something worse than the teachings of the Sith. What you carry may mean the death of the Force… and the death of the Jedi."
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"I believed you are the key to this whole war. When you stood before us in the Council chamber on Coruscant, we felt something from you, we'd never felt before—it was as if the Force had died within you, leaving you hollow. We had suspicions as to why this was, but nothing definite. But rather than try to understand, we sent you away. I think because at some level, there was fear. We live our whole lives in touch with the Force, in touch with life all around us, and you had a gift in that regard. You formed bonds so easily, and they flowed deep between you and others. To see such emptiness in the Force standing before you... it is not an easy thing to face."

"Whatever is attacking us, it is leaving something in its wake, something we haven't felt since you stood before us in judgement. The deaths of the Jedi, the destruction of Katarr, all of these things are leaving behind echoes—like the one we felt from you in the council chamber. It was clear to us—to me, that we had to find you. But we couldn't call you back from exile, because we didn't know where you'd gone. Plus, there was a chance we might put you in danger, and that we couldn't allow. If you couldn't feel the Force, then it would just make you a target. I don't know how you got back, but I'm glad you're here."
What was it Yoda said about fear? These "Jedi Masters" seem very fearful to me. A stupid fear as it would turn out, as it was not the Exile who would do this but Nihilus; and they were gonna stop the only Jedi who could stop him, save the galaxy and the Jedi... YAY for being stupid! Anyway;

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It's just the ridiculousness of the overall concept. I mean, killing the Force? Really? Being the Force an established existing and omnipresent entity, who would think of killing it, and how? It just doesn't work in Star Wars, and the reason behind Avellone's idea only make me hate it even more.
I'd disagree, I think Kreia is much like Ahab from Moby Dick; she blames the force for her own failings. She pushes her and others motivations onto the Force which makes the Force seem malevolent to her.

Also are alot of our motivations logical? Or are good villains motivations logical or reasonable? I'd argue the scariest villains are the ones who seemingly have no logic in what they are doing (think the Joker in the Dark Kinght as an example.. He just wants to watch the world burn, is that any more different to Kreia?). Can you kill God? Can you kill the Force... They would seem to be the same question to me. Anyways as I'm lazy I'll use wikipedia to summerize Ahab from Moby Dick;

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The book portrays destructive obsession and monomania, as well as the assumption of anthropomorphism; projecting human instincts, characteristics and motivations onto animals. Moby-Dick is ruthless in attacking the sailors who attempt to hunt and kill him, but it is Ahab who invests Moby-Dick's natural instincts with malign and evil intent. In fact it is not the whale, but the crippled Ahab who alone possesses this characteristic.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moby-Dick
So Kreia projects human (or sentient in SW's case) instincts, characteristics and motivations onto the Force. But if the Force is "God" such thinking is flawed on many levels, not least that the Force is concious to a level entirely different to sentient beings. It also to me ignores the fact that if the force is morally nuetural it's an individuals choice (fault) if they cause death and destruction with that power. Does the Force really "balance things"?

In a sense that would seem to sum up Kriea, she wants revenge, revenge on the Jedi, revenge on the Sith and ultimately revenge on the universe and the Force for her being stripped of power.

For me of course Mical, probably summed up the Exile best;

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And where they look at you and see the death of the Force, I look at you and see the hope for all life.
Did Traya really expect to win?

My 2 cents...



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Last edited by jonathan7; 10-20-2011 at 06:48 PM. Reason: Fixed typo's and quotes -- j7
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Old 10-21-2011, 02:49 AM   #25
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It's still a big part/plot of the game thanks to Avellone's anti-religious stance.
Although that might have something to do with it, it's likely more than just that. I believe he did say that he went over much of the SW material at that point, and obviously found himself frustrated. Likely because out of everything, it really isn't properly explained, to any degree, just what the 'force' is. With Kreia's mindset, she was betrayed by the Jedi, and the Sith, both of them users of the force, who mostly use it blindly, taking little care for what it really is. Aside from revenge, what if another motivation, is her fear of what the force is?

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The in-game explanation is that the Exile syphon's the force from your companions and is additionally some sort of "Force Black Hole". Although I supose I'd look at it differently that the Exile underwent a healing being around people again, having been away for so long; the relationships and force bonds, caused the Exile to feel the force again; but of course that's only my thoughts on *my Exile*.
The black hole idea really doesn't fit, although it may be close. I say that, mostly because it suggests the exile forcibly draws energy from everyone, which she does, but not like Nihilus. Where he draws energy from any source, the Exile draws only a limited amount- likely not enough to actually drain someone of life, or their force power(the actual powers themselves, notwithstanding). When the life around the Exile is plentiful, it is easy to draw the needed energy. Why could Kreia almost kill the Exile in the Enclave? Well, it mirrors Malachor, with the lingering feeling of dead Jedi, and even the planet itself is mostly desolate(not to mention the bond between the two, and a blade in the stomach). The reason the same doesn't happen on Malachor V during the endgame, in a similar scenario? Kreia's comment that you are not truly a Jedi or a Sith. Malachor is a world plentiful in the force, and the Exile uses that, no matter which side he or she lays claim to.

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Did Traya really expect to win?
Perhaps she did want to win, but only at first. At that point, it is only about killing what she hates, fears, etc. Along with using the Exile to do it. However, after the Jedi Enclave, it is easy to see that her goal changes - even if she is still using the Exile just the same.

She takes out the Jedi Master's herself(if the Exile didn't do so already), and basically paints a target on Atris, along with the three Sith lords, herself in included. At this point, it was more about getting rid of the idealism that had betrayed her - that of the Jedi, and the Sith. At least, any of significance that remained.

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Old 10-21-2011, 01:29 PM   #26
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The black hole idea really doesn't fit, although it may be close. I say that, mostly because it suggests the exile forcibly draws energy from everyone, which she does, but not like Nihilus. Where he draws energy from any source, the Exile draws only a limited amount- likely not enough to actually drain someone of life, or their force power(the actual powers themselves, notwithstanding). When the life around the Exile is plentiful, it is easy to draw the needed energy. Why could Kreia almost kill the Exile in the Enclave? Well, it mirrors Malachor, with the lingering feeling of dead Jedi, and even the planet itself is mostly desolate(not to mention the bond between the two, and a blade in the stomach). The reason the same doesn't happen on Malachor V during the endgame, in a similar scenario? Kreia's comment that you are not truly a Jedi or a Sith. Malachor is a world plentiful in the force, and the Exile uses that, no matter which side he or she lays claim to.
At what point does Kreia nearly kill the Exile? (I have only played lightside, will sound lame but even in a video game I can't be mean to the people). But at least it seemed to me the Exile was knocked unconscious as a result of Kreia forcing the Jedi Masters to let go of them trying to cut the Exile off from the force.

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Perhaps she did want to win, but only at first. At that point, it is only about killing what she hates, fears, etc. Along with using the Exile to do it. However, after the Jedi Enclave, it is easy to see that her goal changes - even if she is still using the Exile just the same.
I don't think Kreia actually wanted to kill the Jedi Masters in the LS playthrough, she wanted the Exile to show them they were wrong; her revenge would be them admitting they were wrong; Proof that in fact Kreia was right and they were wrong, however they still continuing along a cowards path of inaction. Her revenge was meant to be the Exile being her student and what the Exile represented, but when the council tried to cut the exile off from the force/kill the Exile, her hand was forced.

I do think the Let's Play does an excellent job of explaining the confrontation; http://lparchive.org/Knights-of-the-...date%2047/



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Old 10-21-2011, 03:19 PM   #27
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At what point does Kreia nearly kill the Exile? (I have only played lightside, will sound lame but even in a video game I can't be mean to the people). But at least it seemed to me the Exile was knocked unconscious as a result of Kreia forcing the Jedi Masters to let go of them trying to cut the Exile off from the force.
With a DS Exile, if he or she kills the Jedi Masters, either on their respective planets, or right there in the enclave(which I haven't really done), Kreia berates the Exile, which culminates in her taking out a lightsaber, and stabbing herself with it - which through their bond, effects the Exile as well(at least with TSLRCM - in the vanilla game, she uses force drain).

It might not exactly be "almost killing" the Exile, but it is likely that he or she survived only because of the link(or bond) with the companions.


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I don't think Kreia actually wanted to kill the Jedi Masters in the LS playthrough, she wanted the Exile to show them they were wrong; her revenge would be them admitting they were wrong; Proof that in fact Kreia was right and they were wrong, however they still continuing along a cowards path of inaction. Her revenge was meant to be the Exile being her student and what the Exile represented, but when the council tried to cut the exile off from the force/kill the Exile, her hand was forced.
That, I do agree with. Presented with the truth, presented with the facts that they lacked, their recourse is to act just as they had before. Hell, that would make me want dispose of them, even as a LS Exile.

"She has brought you truth, and you condemn it? The arrogance."

She does express some degree of pride in the fact that a student of hers was able to best them, but dislikes the fact that you couldn't show them the truth(At least for the DS path).

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Old 10-21-2011, 04:01 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by J7
I don't think Kreia actually wanted to kill the Jedi Masters in the LS playthrough, she wanted the Exile to show them they were wrong; her revenge would be them admitting they were wrong; Proof that in fact Kreia was right and they were wrong, however they still continuing along a cowards path of inaction. Her revenge was meant to be the Exile being her student and what the Exile represented, but when the council tried to cut the exile off from the force/kill the Exile, her hand was forced.
Sorry, but no. Kreia's a Sith Lord. The Jedi by default are her enemy, and she hates those particular Jedi especially by virtue of being the same Council that exiled her. Had her aim been to "prove them wrong", there is a chance that she might have, I don't know, tried to talk to them or something instead of essentially dumping a jigsaw puzzle (the Exile) into their lap and giving them five minutes to figure it out. Then there's the rather silly assumption that Kreia had no way of saving the Exile without killing the Masters.

What Kreia does is stop them, lecture them in a clearly threatening way, waste them with Force drain, and them proceed to rant at their dead bodies. That isn't what someone who wanted to reason would do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Other guy
It might not exactly be "almost killing" the Exile, but it is likely that he or she survived only because of the link(or bond) with the companions.
I call it a plot hole. Much like Kreia dying at the end and the Exile presumably surviving with no explanation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Other guy
She does express some degree of pride in the fact that a student of hers was able to best them, but dislikes the fact that you couldn't show them the truth(At least for the DS path).
Just one more point suggesting that Kreia is a hypocrite and/or insane, seeing as she kills them herself if the Exile doesn't.


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Old 10-21-2011, 04:35 PM   #29
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Sorry, but no. Kreia's a Sith Lord. The Jedi by default are her enemy, and she hates those particular Jedi especially by virtue of being the same Council that exiled her. Had her aim been to "prove them wrong", there is a chance that she might have, I don't know, tried to talk to them or something instead of essentially dumping a jigsaw puzzle (the Exile) into their lap and giving them five minutes to figure it out. Then there's the rather silly assumption that Kreia had no way of saving the Exile without killing the Masters.

What Kreia does is stop them, lecture them in a clearly threatening way, waste them with Force drain, and them proceed to rant at their dead bodies. That isn't what someone who wanted to reason would do.
I'd disagree TKA, while as ever I respect your thoughts and input. I wouldn't call Kreia at this point a Sith Lord, and I think the Let's Play is correct that she had intended to avoid detection again. But that the Council trying to cut the Exile off from the force caused her to protect the Exile. The interesting thing with the scene is I'd say that the Jedi Council are aggressive towards Kreia first; however as soon as she came to intervene she intended to cut them off from the force and was pissed at their stupidity. That's just my take of course.


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Originally Posted by TKA-001 View Post
I call it a plot hole. Much like Kreia dying at the end and the Exile presumably surviving with no explanation.

Just one more point suggesting that Kreia is a hypocrite and/or insane, seeing as she kills them herself if the Exile doesn't.
Or if Kreia lied about how bad the effects of the Force bond were... Good means of forcing the Exile to have her along, and Kriea is a serial liar throughout the entire game. I'd also say she was both a hypocrite and insane.



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Old 10-21-2011, 07:58 PM   #30
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This is my theory only:

I do think that she was wrong on her assumption about the force bond at first. No matter how intelligent you are, it is normal to be wrong in your assumption.

Also I do think that over time that Kreia learned that it wasn't so. I have a theory that she had a deathwish and manipulated the Jedi Exile to believing it and getting to the Malchor 5 and forcing her to fight Kreia on her terms.

It was implied in one of her conversation that the 3 Sith Lords deserve to die because if they won't be stopped they would ruin the entire galaxy.

it was implied in the cut content with Lonna Vash, When someone switch alignments and other reasons, A force bond can be weaken. I do think that by following to dark side, Kreia weaken the force bond a great deal. Due to the unnaturalness of the force bond, I do think that Kreia saved the Jedi Exile by going to the Dark side.
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Old 10-21-2011, 08:08 PM   #31
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Or if Kreia lied about how bad the effects of the Force bond were... Good means of forcing the Exile to have her along, and Kriea is a serial liar throughout the entire game.
Not good enough for me. If the Exile collapses in agony when Kreia gets her hand cut off, then it follows that Kreia dying would probably kill her, too (and if we want to get lawerly, I know of at least one other instance of the exact thing happening in the EU, in the instance of a bond arguably weaker than Kreia's and Exile's).

Even if we give Kreia the benefit of the liar's license and concede the lethality as such, it's still not handled well in the story itself. To my knowledge, the bond is never even mentioned again in the game after the Exile defeats Atris - cut content or otherwise. I should think that the confrontation with Darth Traya would be a good time to bring it up again. It's like the writers just plain forgot about it.

(Branch warning) Now that I think about it, the story has a lot of elements that one would think indicate a very different set of endings. The Exile and Malachor are both wounds in the Force that are said (well, sorta) can kill it and everyone who hears it (which depending on your interpretation means either a fraction of the universe's population or the totality of it), the Ebon Hawk crashes and then falls down a chasm on Malachor (arguably making its return at the end a deus ex machina/asspull), and there's a 50/50 chance of the planet being destroyed. It seems to me then that the Exile's choice would be to let herself and the party die in order to remove the wounds in the Force, or leave/stay and let the wounds remain, potentially causing an incalculable number of deaths.


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Last edited by TKA-001; 10-22-2011 at 12:11 PM.
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Old 10-22-2011, 04:33 AM   #32
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I mostly agree here with DeathScepter. Kreia sees the Force as a balancing thing that heavily influences (or may even compel) it's 'users' towards one or another mindset or course of action beyond their 'normal' stand or reasoning, and given the final word on all things starwars, that is, the movies, i completely agree: just look at the super magical, snap-of-the fingers (retarded) way in which anakin turns to the dark side (yes, we were told the dark side twists your mind and all that jazz but does it have to do it in such a quick, unreal fashion? but nevertheless it does), and also look at the way the jedi council members behaved; generally trying to decipher things looking for signs in the force instead of physically moving their asses 'into the fire' to find the truth of things (inaction), arrogant (for instance, the way they dumbly dissmised Qui-gon's reporting that they encountered a sith on Tattooine, i mean, the man is an experienced jedi master and they simply dismissed this info as the paranoid ravings of a frightened noob or something), and generally oblivious to the real flesh and blood motivations/desires/intent of real flesh and blood people, even people they constantly came in contact with (and including their own members) until it was too late to do anything about it. So, yes, according to the movies, and both kotor games, the force, in either edge of the spectrum (light or dark, well, not much of a spectrum that, let's call it 'sides of the coin') limits (or reduces) the free will of it's 'users'.

Now, Kreia knows this, and sees the Exile in his/her condition as one who is 'neither jedi nor sith' but, as the death of the 'will' of the force, as someone who can use the force and not be 'coerced' by it's 'will', a true master and commander of the force, which is why she calls the Exile beautiful and tells him/her that what he/she learned (became) must never be forgotten, etc.

As for the 'death of the force' thing, given Kreia's final dialogue, the scene with the jedi masters, and Visas's story about her world and Nihilus, i don't think it's meant in the sense of actually killing the force itself, but rather it's 'will', it's coercive influence on it's 'users' (be them light or dark), and the way to do that was to force all force sensitives everywhere to either die from the echo or willfully (and completely) 'deaf' themselves to 'hearing' the force (and thereby becoming 'wounds' in the force like the Exile).

Given Malachor V (a planet) as the source and enough range (galactic) she could make sure it reached all force sensitives (even new ones) for ages to come, but the price would probably be countless lives as it is hinted that most would not survive (which is why you get a chance to stop her and also destroy Malachor V itself).

But anyway, all this (even without taking into account her personal motivations and story) just goes to show how infinitely superior Kreia and the story of TSL is compared to your typical cliched two-bit carboard 'Bwuahaha' mustache-twitching villain and generic 2 dimensional stories that plague most of starwars things.
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Old 10-24-2011, 03:18 AM   #33
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That's an interesting question to ponder OP.

Basic and blunt answer: one of two things would have happened,
Either the "kill the force" thing would have worked and it actually would have killed everyone, OR it wouldn't have worked and she'd just have created a paradoxical abomination--which maybe would have killed a lot of people but like the atomic bomb and even bouncing a ball, it would probably have petered out and people elsewhere would still live. I can't be too sure which one to be honest.

I don't think a "death to all life" and "wound in the force/black hole" narrative is a bad thing, nor necessarily is it invalid.
Actually Nihilus' whole "lost body due to force use" isn't as rare as some would think in terms of "magic" because I guess letting dependency and consumption end up controlling you makes you a shadow of your former self from a metaphorical point of view. It also makes someone less than whole in terms of ficiton and fantasy, at least so much as I understand it.

As Kreia/Traya said it: if they had only gone to the "darkest parts" of the galaxy (within themselves) rather than "wait for the echo to reach them" they would have seen it for what it was and that it was not the Exile who was the real threat. The Exile, if anything, could have used their help. I do wonder how much differently it all would have ended up if that were the case.

It would seem to me that the only one who was really a Jedi throughout that whole ordeal was the Exile...okay maybe the Disciple as well. But in any case, it was the Exile who was the catalyst.

Kreia/Traya came to realize that she wasn't powerful enough to defeat her former associates in any case. Her motivation was twofold making her overall gray:
Light sided, she had to undo the damage she did. And she knew after what transpired at the enclave, that she could never really atone for that which she was responsible--and she recognized she was part of the problem and that she too must be purged;
Dark sided, as I said she was part of the problem, dependent on the force, and had some irreconcilable evils about her she could not simply live on with (in both her estimation during her more sane moments and AND the estimation of anyone half level-headed).

She's an unreliable narrator but it would seem out of necessity more than choice. She knew the triumvirate was abominable in her lighter moments. The only hope was the Exile, who was in need of spiritual healing, of growth. So she had to
1) overstate the threat, because it was the only way the Exile would grow and return to fulfill her role. Having a purpose was the only real way to set things in motion.
2) appear to be more of a threat once the basic truth about the threat was revealed. More for the Exile's benefit than anything. How people can miss this point is beyond me.

She used you in order to end the reign of these sith, the corrupted remnants of the republic. The other side of her was irreconcilably corrupted and hurt especially since her hope for redemption in either scenario is dashed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rtas Vadum View Post
The black hole idea really doesn't fit, although it may be close. I say that, mostly because it suggests the exile forcibly draws energy from everyone, which she does, but not like Nihilus. Where he draws energy from any source, the Exile draws only a limited amount- likely not enough to actually drain someone of life, or their force power(the actual powers themselves, notwithstanding).
I think the difference here is explained in that the Exile cut herself off from the force and realized she didn't need it to live. She exercised control over herself, regardless out of necessity to live or not. Actually, if one practices self control, one would find a purpose, even if just because one realizes that such a thing is another step to enlightenment.

Whereas Nihilus, whether actually undead or just a junkie of a sort did not exercise any control over himself whatsoever. He had to take the expedient path to greater power and it ended up weakening him because the pace was not sustainable.

Basically I agree, I'm only offering an explanation of maybe the why.

Quote:
When the life around the Exile is plentiful, it is easy to draw the needed energy. Why could Kreia almost kill the Exile in the Enclave? Well, it mirrors Malachor, with the lingering feeling of dead Jedi, and even the planet itself is mostly desolate(not to mention the bond between the two, and a blade in the stomach). The reason the same doesn't happen on Malachor V during the endgame, in a similar scenario? Kreia's comment that you are not truly a Jedi or a Sith. Malachor is a world plentiful in the force, and the Exile uses that, no matter which side he or she lays claim to.
That more or less supports sustainability. The Exile adapted, and found another way. Others did not.

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Originally Posted by TKA-001 View Post
Sorry, but no. Kreia's a Sith Lord. The Jedi by default are her enemy, and she hates those particular Jedi especially by virtue of being the same Council that exiled her. Had her aim been to "prove them wrong", there is a chance that she might have, I don't know, tried to talk to them or something instead of essentially dumping a jigsaw puzzle (the Exile) into their lap and giving them five minutes to figure it out. Then there's the rather silly assumption that Kreia had no way of saving the Exile without killing the Masters.
I disagree. Kreia might not be jedi, but she saw the way of the sith did not ultimately have what she was searching for either. I'm not saying she wasn't evil, but I am saying her evil isn't as absolute as you are making it sound. It was precarious until the enclave scene. IMO could have changed for the light had things worked out differently. One begins to ponder at how many other possibilities could have been made for this story.

Quote:
What Kreia does is stop them, lecture them in a clearly threatening way, waste them with Force drain, and them proceed to rant at their dead bodies. That isn't what someone who wanted to reason would do.
To your credit: Part of the reason, I think, for her irrational freakout was in the fact that she blamed the force itself for her failings and not herself. Then of course she was a force-dependent and part of the abominable triumvirate.

However, the other part of it was hinged around her getting her hopes up that the council would "see the light", acknowledge the lesson she "sought to teach". They did not and it all went to hell. Maybe it's just me, but I do see a possibility, actually, that if the council had rectified/retracted its judgment of the Exile (you know, actually ACTING like jedi), that she would redeem herself. Even if they did not initially retract their judgment of her, them seeing the light about the exile would have opened their eyes to the "lesson [she] had sought to teach" over time.

Though she was successful in slaying the council (if such a terrible action could be called that), the act was ultimately futile. Then there really was nowhere else left to go but back to the dark side.

Having been betrayed she may have begun conjuring "kill the force", but despite all of that she had hoped on a gamble to set the Exile on the path to becoming whole again. That to me says that despite all her folly, she cared for at least one other than herself. It may have been attached to her pride and proving her "being right", but I don't seriously think she would have done what she did if she didn't genuinely care for the Exile on some level.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeathScepter View Post
This is my theory only:

I do think that she was wrong on her assumption about the force bond at first. No matter how intelligent you are, it is normal to be wrong in your assumption.
That in itself is one of the ultimate forms of intelligence. What you just acknowledged.

Quote:
Also I do think that over time that Kreia learned that it wasn't so. I have a theory that she had a deathwish and manipulated the Jedi Exile to believing it and getting to the Malchor 5 and forcing her to fight Kreia on her terms.
Hoping the council would pull their collective head out of their collective ass may have been hoping/asking too much, but I do believe that Kreia saw a worthiness in the Exile, with hope at least she would learn the lessons.

Quote:
It was implied in one of her conversation that the 3 Sith Lords deserve to die because if they won't be stopped they would ruin the entire galaxy.
While I do believe there is truth in this, I theorize also that in a sith victory
1) Nihilus would starve and weaken out in space with nothing to consum until he ceased to exist, though he probably would have done a lot more damage before he went down.
2) Sion having nobody left to torment would eventually see no purpose to his "immortality" and come to the same conclusion [albeit much, much later] that the life he's been living as an "immortal" has not been "worth it". The belief and purpose could not continue to hold him.

Quote:
it was implied in the cut content with Lonna Vash, When someone switch alignments and other reasons, A force bond can be weaken. I do think that by following to dark side, Kreia weaken the force bond a great deal. Due to the unnaturalness of the force bond, I do think that Kreia saved the Jedi Exile by going to the Dark side.
Hm. That works for me. When someone changes drastically, your intimacy of that other is displaced. That's only logical. To me anyways.

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Originally Posted by TKA-001 View Post
Not good enough for me. If the Exile collapses in agony when Kreia gets her hand cut off, then it follows that Kreia dying would probably kill her, too (and if we want to get lawerly, I know of at least one other instance of the exact thing happening in the EU, in the instance of a bond arguably weaker than Kreia's and Exile's).
I knew this one would come up. You can take this or leave it, no skin off my nose. I'll try.

Kreia, snapping at what the council was going to do to the Exile, would have tweaked the bond enough that severing it might not have been deadly to the Exile at that point, which is one of my main gripes about TSL. It does not do enough to explain this. Whether the writers just forgot or circumstances forced their hand, is certainly arguable.

In that example you cite, between Tae and Elora, the nature of both characters hadn't changed much prior to that point. It was forcibly (no pun) severed and there was no readiness on Elora's part, so it was traumatic enough to kill.

The Exile may (or may not) have been unique, but I am of the opinion that in any case, a bond between any two can be twisted and weakened (hence preparation and readiness) to a point where severing the bond would not be deadly traumatic if one of two characters has undergoes a severe change altering their relationship.

I do believe what with the Exiles prior experience, and things playing out the way they did, that this was the case for the Exile.

Quote:
Even if we give Kreia the benefit of the liar's license and concede the lethality as such, it's still not handled well in the story itself. To my knowledge, the bond is never even mentioned again in the game after the Exile defeats Atris - cut content or otherwise. I should think that the confrontation with Darth Traya would be a good time to bring it up again. It's like the writers just plain forgot about it.
That, or time constraints didn't allow them to spot this until the game was already published. Interpret that however you will.

Quote:
(Branch warning) Now that I think about it, the story has a lot of elements that one would think indicate a very different set of endings. The Exile and Malachor are both wounds in the Force that are said (well, sorta) can kill it and everyone who hears it (which depending on your interpretation means either a fraction of the universe's population or the totality of it), the Ebon Hawk crashes and then falls down a chasm on Malachor (arguably making its return at the end a deus ex machina/asspull), and there's a 50/50 chance of the planet being destroyed. It seems to me then that the Exile's choice would be to let herself and the party die in order to remove the wounds in the Force, or leave/stay and let the wounds remain, potentially causing an incalculable number of deaths.
I think you're getting it, but your perception and mine are two different things. I have wondered at this possible ending as well.

I always thought that if the Exile was the one who had overcome the "wound" of her force essence (meaning she had healed regardless of LS/DS outcome) then she was no longer a threat. The other "wounds in the force" had been ended, so the breach was sealed and the threat would have ended.

Again one wonders if they would have damned all life, or if it would have petered out.
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Old 03-14-2012, 06:45 PM   #34
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Hmm, I've seen a lot of good arguments and statements around here... Let me give you my view on this topic.

I think, that Kreia's "Killing of the Force" was just another pretext to get revange on those who betrayed and wounded her. As she stated to the Exile on Malachor "From the moment you awoke I had used you..." moment, she said that she used the Exile to reveal those who wounded her, so they could be killed by the Republic.
Basically, this means she wished to undo the evil she created, with the Sith Triumvirate. As was also stated, Kreia orchestrated the entire journey of the Exile, simply to let the Sith Triumvirate collapse on itself. The problem however, was that she needed someone more powerful than the others, and that is where the "wound in the Force" steps in.

Kreia knows that the Exile is similair to Nihilus. Nihilus threatens to destroy the entire galaxy, so Kreia needs someone as strong as him, to defeat him. That would be the Exile, since often the Exile has been compared to Nihilus.

Also, for the death of Sion, Kreia needed someone who could easily erode someone's will, and influance their actions. Sion could only die, if he allowed death to come to him. Since he was very stubborn and did not wish to die, Kreia needed the Exile, the one who formed bonds with others so easily, to erode his will and wish to stay alive.

So, why would Kreia want to undo something that she created? Perhaps guilt, or the need to set things right before her death? Often one can see, that when someone has done something or created something, and at first one is very happy and enthusiastic about it, but later he or she realizes it isn't that fantastic at all, and wishes to get rid of it. Since the Triumvirate was something big, almost impossible to get rid off, Kreia needed to pull all different kind of factors into her plan... The Republic, the Jedi etc.

Kreia however, didn't create the Sith Triumvirate. It has been there, already since Revan arose to power. One could say, that he was the actual father of the Sith Triumvirate. Unfortunately, the Sith that came after Revan, did not understand what Revan's Sith Triumvirate meant, whereas Kreia did.
Both Revan and Kreia knew, that the Republic was a factor that could not be removed, or else the entire system in the galaxy would fall apart, and chaos would dominate everywhere. That is also, I presume, why Revan never really waged war against the Republic, but the Jedi.

But returning to the Triumvirate, so with Revan being the actual "father" of it, Kreia might have felt responisble for it's creation, since she was the one to train Revan, and perhaps (unwillignly) planted the idea of such an organisation in his head.
Revan did not inted to kill the Jedi however, yet simply convert them to his cause... Mark my choice of words: his cause... not the cause of the Dark Side.

Revan never intended for the Dark Side to dominate the galaxy. He only sought to protect and arm the galaxy, against the threat that lurked in the Unknown Regions: The Sith Emperor and his Sith Empire, the true Sith Empire.
The Sith after Revan, completely changed the Triumvirate's ideals. Fueled by their hate towards the Jedi, they started exterminating them, whereas Revan never intended such a thing to happen. Kreia, was one of those Sith who got corrupted by their hate and sough to kill the Jedi as well. Still, at the moment of her being exiled, for the second time, she realized again what Revan's true intention was, and got ashamed of what she proceeded after him. It would seem to me then, that Kreia simply wished to undo the evil she had created, for it would make the Republic (and therefore also the galaxy) fall.

There is one thing I wish to point out as well, about the Exile's bond.
So, we all know that their bond is lethal. Kreia's hand got cut off, Exile felt it as well. Kreia stabs herself (In the restored content mod) with a lightsaber, Exile falls on the ground because she felt it as well.
Okay, so it would have been more than logical, that the Exile would have died on Malachor V, after she said "Rest now, Kreia... Your time in this place is over...". Still, what if Kreia managed to seperate the bond between them, with her fall to the Dark Side? Notice how her outside feelings towards the Exile change, after she revealed her true identity as Darth Traya. Traya seeks to kill the Exile, whereas Kreia protected her from the Jedi Masters.

Notice my choice of words again... Traya sought to kill the Exile, not Kreia. To me it would seem, that Kreia and Traya, are again both the same and also two different characters. What if Kreia killed herself (methaporically) when she "betrayed" the Exile after the meeting with the Jedi Masters? It would mean that Kreia already had died, and therefore, the bond died along with her. Traya was completely another person, and therefore there was no bond between the Exile and Traya, only a bond between Kreia and the Exile.

This is at least my perspective. Sometimes I do wonder why people hate Kreia/Traya so much. I must admit that I learned a lot from her (things that can be used in the REAL WORLD). I always loved her character, and that diabolical but also loving part of her. She hated everyone around her, except for the Exile, who she loved and praised. Curious, is it not?


"She will destroy you..."
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Old 03-15-2012, 02:15 PM   #35
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Knowing Traya as the diabolical witch she is, I'd say that she would have ended up in succeeding in her attempt to obliterate the Jedi and Sith orders, which I'm assuming is all she thought about when she was talking about the Force because they are the most prevalent Force Users.

Whether or not she'd have actually been successful in killing the Force is another matter. However, if Traya had killed Meetra then she would have had several Jedi trained by the Exile herself, which would have left echoes of her existence in them. That would mean that it's possible she wouldn't have needed Meetra to complete her endeavor. If it were actually possible to kill the Force, then maybe she could have just used the Lost Jedi to end the Force.

However killing the Force would have had repercussions that she herself probably wouldn't have been able to live with. She had the Force stripped from her once and it would seem that she barely survived the encounter, would she have survived it a second time, when all the midiclorians in her body actually were destroyed with the death of the Force? Possible, but highly unlikely. Look at Nihilus' destruction of Katarr, he devoured the Force on the planet and killed every living creature on the planet (save for Visas, whom I believe ended up becoming a wound in the Force as well).


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Old 03-16-2012, 01:01 AM   #36
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Seeing as revenge lust consumed her, she never seemed to care much about her own life. The risk of dying as a consequence to see Force itself purged was thus probably irrelevant for her.


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Old 07-05-2012, 06:30 AM   #37
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She'd probably hunt down all of the Exile's companions and try to recruit them, or destroy them.
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